TK's opinions on the industry

[Ninjeff]

Ive been searching around for some interview with TK lately regarding his views on the current state of the industry. I see snippits here or there that he says, but i would be interested to have a good "sit down" talk with him and pick his brain about the industry and its future. Both as a buisness, and as a sport.
I know i'll never be able to sit down and do it, so i was hoping there was some type of archived interview you might know of.

[AGD]

Go ahead and ask and I will reply (although not with a book).

AGD

[viper-mayhem]

Do you think that AGD has a future in this new ERA of markers? Either mechanical or electro?

[RogueFactor]

I will help out with what Tom has already said in the past...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2317542&postcount=121


All,

Now this has turned into an intelligent conversation. :)

What I believe to be at the core of this whole thing is whether or not the paintball industry should make and follow a plan, or leave it to a random walk. Its pretty easy to guess that I prefer the plan, ie ASTM, governing body for the tournaments etc. Now this has been attempted but never worked in paintball so you could easily say that its a hopeless cause.

Since there is a new crop of honchos in town there is another possibility that we could come to a Y in the road. Which direction we take is now in the hands of very few people. I would prefer that this group of decision makers had some experience in paintball but since they don't I am forced to see the negative side of things. Perhaps business acumen will overcome industry experience, only time will tell.

Our country in general has proceeded at the random walk and done remarkably well. But there are stand out examples of a plan really working well. like NASCAR. I spent a lot of personal time and effort along with people like Budd Orr and Jessica Sparks to get the heard moving in one direction. That never happened but for us old timers we still see this as our 'baby' and feel the emotions when things don't look right.

So forgive me if I have a sour view of the current situation, (its my right as a grumpy old man :)) Fireblade is right when he says its all of you who will determine the future of paintball not the past.

Its your world, do us proud.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

And another...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2317101&postcount=116


Fireblade,

Bravo, you give as good as you got. So we both agree things stand like this:

The industry is being run by people who should know how to run a big business.

The industry has evolved into a 'big business' model which most successful industries do.

"Big money" has moved into the industry so lack of funds is no longer an issue.

The evolution of products will be toward economy of scale and price reduction.

The legal climate is just another expense to deal with and not untypical.

Companies will do battle as big companies do and try to put the other out of business.


If we are agreed on the above, then we can leave it at that and revisit this in a year or two. If you are right, then down the road we will see a growing industry not unlike that of the 90's driven by the "right stuff". If I am correct, then the industry will be floundering with lack of growth and reduction of players.

I actually like this because its testable (given to my scientific nature).

Agreed?

AGD

[RogueFactor]

And another...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2259011&postcount=28


And who was it around here that was saying that things are not changing any different now than in the past?

With the sale of PMI and National, everyone who had a large part of this industry in the beginning is now gone. The people running the big companies like Brass Eagle and the new National/PMI don't know paintball, don't play paintball, don't know who you are and frankly don't care. They are beholding to the board of directors to make a return on their investment.

They made the investment not for the game, but for the profit potential. All the little guys got wiped out by the law suits and the lack of margin. The ones who were left sold out and now its just the biggest sharks who are left.

My personal opinion, right or wrong, is that the industry was too short sighted in coming together and making a rational decision on what it took to make paintball a long term stable industry. Wrap that up with thousands of kids screaming for more firepower and then letting them run rampant with it brought us down this inevitable road.

Collectively paintball has gotten what they asked for, a ferrari you can buy with your mom's credit card and a road to race it on where you can cut through side streets and claim you came in first.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

And another...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2057958&postcount=91



Paintball has only one mountain to climb

Everyone knew what the mountain peak looked like and it had to do with shooting fast. The faster you shot the faster you climbed that darn mountain, the more respect you got and the more intense the game became. For better or worse the manufacturers (me included) gave you what you wanted. Now the peak is no longer in sight because everyone is standing on it. The 10 year old kid next to you got there because his mom bought him the electro-fantastic-of-the-month and bam he is there right next to you.

Now that the exclusivity is gone, and the climb (otherwise known getting some skills) is gone everyone is debating what to do next. Where we went wrong here is there was never an independent organizing body in paintball that kept it a "competitive sport". Looking at NASCAR they are changing the rules all the time to keep the playing field level. Sure the drivers HATE not having an advantage but you know what? it keeps the fans coming. Most other sports have catagories which you can compete in, stock, pro, modified etc. In our sport if you cheat enough they change the rules to let everyone do it.

I have been saying for a while that paintball has issues and now its apparent with an industry wide 30% drop in sales. Thats not my opinion, several HUGE manufacturers have told me that directly. Guys like Warped1 will look forward to a bright future but from my side I don't see it. Airsoft is taking off behind our backs while we look for new players.

I remember when the definintion of a pro paintball player was that he used technology LOWER than the typical gun on the field (12 gram days). If I was king of this industry I would point it back in that direction and sort the players out by skill instead of technopower.

As far as a pump resurgence, I am sure Mike is busy but you don't see any new manufacturers of pumps coming out and the guy doing the gold cockers went out of business.

Good luck to all of you, I hope the game turns out to be something you can enjoy.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

And another...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1799990&postcount=68


Changing ASTM Rules

We were warned early on by people outside our industry that using the ASTM to created certain types of industry regulations was not a good idea. That's because once voted on, ASTM rules are very hard to change because they are based on safety.

It was recomended that we have an industry association publish guidelines so they could be updated and changed regularly. This makes a lot of sense but of course there have been many attempts to bring an association together but they all failed. I will leave it to your imagination to figure out why.

In order to logically change an ASTM rule you would have to show substantial changes in the safety margins in order to open up previously voted on rules. If the velocity had gone down, the distances gotten larger or the rate of fire dropped, then it could be reasonable to change old rules. If whole head protection was mandated or padding required this would also help.

As you can see none of the above have changed and in fact most have gotten worse. I highly doubt any lawyer would advise you that its ok to relax the rules at this point.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

And another...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1608017&postcount=31


What you guys fail to comprehend is how the industry has changed dramatically in the last few years. Most companies NO LONGER HAVE A CHOICE about what they develop. You have been used to the candy store of new developments and then you watched while lawsuits took over the industry. Some of you said something but most did NOT.

You continue to expect that things will be the same but in reality the old days of paintball are gone forever. The general paintball public hasn't put it all together yet. They dont understand that AKA is done making guns forever. That Odessey who brought you the best loader ever is now hovering at bankruptcy. WGP just gave up the whole upper end marrket in favor of a spider clone. Glen Palmer is going to retire to another country. Tippmann is now controlled by the functional equivalent of a superpower and the best Bob Long can do is come out with a new look every month.

Money, lawsuits and patents control what happens in the industry now. You all have pitifully little to do with who makes what products. I have the HAIR tigger completely designed, developed and ready to go. Legal issues and advise from my laywer is telling me not to do anything with it until the legal smog clears. Several people could own rights to that product. Since your not willing to pay 500 bucks per grip frame in multiple licensing fees everyone has to work it out ahead of time.

So go ahead and complain all you want, I am putting up bullet proof shields and waiting for the smoke to clear. We are currently working on something, reducing prices, thats something everyone likes.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

And another...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1509045&postcount=17


Well this is a big point of contention. Most pro eguns today go full auto when fired above a certain rate for a certain time. This is against industry agreed and voted on ASTM standards. Going against instustry standards opens the companies up to huge lawsuits. Since we are not in a position to take on huge lawsuits we dont produce this software and hence will never be conpetitive in the tournament world.

If you look at the ASTM votes you will find it really interesting on who was behind this and you have to ask the question why are they now making products that dont meet this standard.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

Here is one out of chronological order...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2316705&postcount=79


I will clarify,

There is a current round of lawsuits over the Pulse, there is an ongoing different suit between NPS and Diablo over their original paint distribution deal. There is another round of lawsuits over the Tippman look alikes. There is ANOTHER round of lawsuits getting ready to go, over other patent issues. Besides that there is a 24 million dollar lawsuit going on over the woman who was killed by the tank.

So ask yourself, for the size of this industry and the number of players, does this sound like a normal amount of legal activity? Ask yourself again how much does all this cost and where does the money come from? Has anyone ever told you its a good idea to sue people to make money? Or is it most likely a fight until you run out of cash?

You all as the player base only see what comes to the surface and all these comments are based on only that. There is a whole deep ocean of drown products that sank to the bottom never to see the light of day. They are there because its not a good business move to develop them in the current environment. I have seen BRILLIANT gun designs in prototype that disappeared out of fear. I have seen people come into this industry with money to spend but when they see the situation, they back out quietly. You all NEVER see this and don't see the loss to the industry that I do. The only one you ARE familiar with is me and while I get a continuous stream of requests to be involved, it is just not worth my time and effort.

Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

What would Tom shoot if not a mag? This was interesting...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2322051&postcount=12


If I wasn't in the industry but know what I know now.....

I would shoot one of the earlier Angels. I know John Rice and I respect him as an engineer. They made the parts themselves and most were hand fit together ( the breaches were numbered). When your hand fitting parts someone is testing it to make sure it is right. The early cut and carved were great looking guns and the overall design was more elegant than the typical stacked tube. There was a shoot down problem but I could have fixed that.

For a mech I would want a gun I never had to mess with and didn't have to think about, so I would just shoot a Tippy with everyone else.

No other guns impress me at the gut level. The DM's came from the only gun design to be sold three times because of issues. Bob Long called me when he had gun problems. SP never designed anything and the Cockers were for tinkerers.

End of story.

AGD

[Chaos_Theory!]

Why not condense that down into as few posts as you can fit it all into. Ya really dont need a new reply for every quote.

[RogueFactor]

Why not condense that down into as few posts as you can fit it all into. Ya really dont need a new reply for every quote.

Thanks for the suggestion. I prefer the way I did it though. :D

[Ninjeff]

Oh wow. Tom...man. I wasnt prepared for that reply. Lol.

Well, i suppose i was wondering a few things. Especially in regards to another thread on this forum, which has proven to become a hot-bed of debate. The thread got me thinking, especially, about the state of teh industry form a buisness perspective. I got to thinking about how much harder it is to survive than any of us "players" may realize. We ask ask and ask for more more more without regard to the fact that we can just quit, at anytime, without repercussions and remorse. We dont have thousands or millions sunk into the buisness of paintball.
After years and years AGD is still around. I am indeed astounded by how many people, both old and new "know" about the automag and its place in the sport. Yet, not too many people know, really know about the history of AGD. I myself, dont know that much. But what i do know is that AGD and, indeed, Tom Kaye (specifically) have had more impact on the sport than almost any other company short of a few. Tom Kaye's inventions have done more to shape the sport in more ways than we can realize. I think in the end its what makes me proud to own an AGD owners jersey, its what makes me proud to own a mag. Its the legacy of AGD that we take pride in.

So my questions are:
Whats the legacy you hope to leave behind, in regards to AGD? How do you see it fitting in 21st century paintball?

Why wont AGD pay Smart Parts for the rights to their "patent" in order to make what "SOME" believe to be more commercially viable markers? (im not one of those people)

Paintball has grown into a multi-national sport, played by millions of people in dozens of countries all around the globe. A multi-million dollar industry. A real breathing legit sport. yet, some how, most players feel like we (as a sport) are still struggling to be accepted. Why? And how would you change it? More to the point, what would it take for you to look at it as something you want to "create" for again?

there always seems to be alot of talk, every few months, about how "mags are dead" and so forth. And every time us loyal AGD-ers stride valiantly into battle to disspell any rumors of such nonsense. Its something not to be taken lightly. Surely, every other marker has their fans base and followers, but i have seen very very few companies with such a rabid and devoted fan base as AGD. I think its because, more than anything else, we are instilled with a sense of honor and history because we are mag fans. You dont buy an Automag because you saw it in some magazine, or video. You buy it because you know what your getting. Yet, at least for me, their is always an underlying dread that AGD will fade, slowly, into the night. And after awhile there with just be no more "genius" from the AGD camp.
ONe part of me desperately wants a new gun from AGD. The other part wonders how on earth you can possibly make something as revolutionary and mechanicly sound as the Automag.

Upon reading the other posts that rogue put up (thanks by the way) i noticed you tend to draw alot of comparisons between paintball, and Nascar. Its something i myself have discussed among friends. I used to think that paintball should follow examples set from the "big 3" of the sports industry whenever possible. (baseball, football, basketball) But teh more i think about it, teh more i realize that paintball has more in common with Nascar and racing than those other big 3. And i agree, Nascar would be a fine example to follow. And we, as a sport, could learn alot form the various racing factions in the world.
I also seem to get a bit of underlying "resentment" in some of your comments towards the industry. And, perhaps, rightfully so. That being said im sure you didnt get into the sport because you saw dollar signs. Everything about AGD's history tells me other wise. It seems like you got into the sport because you saw something you enjoyed, and wanted to be a part of.

And so i ask you this, (because i know your time is valuable i will be honest and say this is the question i really wanted to ask)

In total disregard to the industry side of things, as a player, a FAN of paintball, where do you see us. The collective players, right now? Lets forget, for a moment, that you know anything about the buisness end. Whats your opinion on the sport, as its played and handled by players? Where do YOU want to be?

-thanks in advance for answering any of these questions. heck, im sure i would sit for hours and hours picking your brain if given the chance. I know your time is valuable. And the simple fact that you make time for us means more to me, as a player and consumer than you could ever possibly know.

-jeff

[Pacifist_Farmer]

Thanks for the suggestion. I prefer the way I did it though. :D

:rofl: gosh, I wish there was a way to search for posts by user

[maglover728]

Listen to Tom. Pass on what Tom Says. RogueFactor may mean wel but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Take it straight from the man!

[AGD]

"In total disregard to the industry side of things, as a player, a FAN of paintball, where do you see us. The collective players, right now? Lets forget, for a moment, that you know anything about the buisness end. Whats your opinion on the sport, as its played and handled by players? Where do YOU want to be?"

Taking the industry out of it and just looking at the fan base, I think they are happy as usual and spending every dime they have to feed-the-need. There is no reason for players to be unhappy since they now have cheap full auto guns and paint at an all time low.

Really for the first time in paintball history, there are two fully developed roads to travel down, scenario and tournament. They are so different from each other they don't really overlap so you are not burdened with "looking bad" in front of the "other" players. You have a choice on how to play which can fit everyones skill level which is really nice.

The "sport" side of things (if you can call it that) with tournaments is clearly defined. Everyone knows what you have to do to win and that cheating goes on, so if you play that part of the game, you do so by choice and for the most part I think people love it.

I think there is an overall lack of product variety and innovation right now but again I think the player base is fine with that because only a few products hold that "top dog" status. If you buy a DM you are done in most people's minds. Fortunately for most players, you only need one status gun (unless you are Atach) to feel proud.

Where would I like to see it as a player? Personally I am the type of baller that enjoys planning and executing an attack. There is nothing more exciting than working with a team of guys in an UNPREDICTABLE situation that comes under dominant control because you planned, communicated and reacted. Some of you experienced a taste of this at the Pittsburg AO meet where our group moved through the woods as a unit. We came upon the enemy and I called for a 10 second blast on my mark. With my hand drop, the woods went from silent to a torrent of 30 guns blazing and then silent again. When a group moves as one large, thinking, AGGRESSIVE animal it sends a chill down your spine. Neither scenario or tournament offers this type of rush for me personally the way things are at the moment, so I an not as excited about playing as I used to be.

As you can see from my previous statements here that different ways to play paintball are good. I would simply like to see more ways to play that are as well developed as scenario and tournament. If there were different groups playing tournaments with pumps, mechs and 12 grams think of the product variety!! 12 gram speed ball would be nuts because you would be bunkering guys when they are changing cartridges. I would like to see players respected for the style they play if they do it well. I would like to see that respect gained by either having a super techno barn burner or by having aquired the skill level to use a pump to maximum advantage.

Wrapping it all up, the players are happy but there are now fewer of them. Trying to answer why there are less players is open to speculation. My opinion is that there is not enough variety in current paintball to offer opportunities for all styles of play and that these styles needed to be cultivated over a long peroid, you just can't throw a mech tournament and change the world. Players will always be happy or they will cease to be players so the state of the player will always be optomistic even if there are only two left.

You see, when you take the industry issues of it, Tom doesn't have such a bad view of paintball!!

AGD

[matteusz]

I see three trends in threads directed at AGD/ Tom.

First: whining, screaming, begging, crying, complaining . . . for new mag innovations/ products.

Second boils down to: "I am uniformed and have limited knowledge on the industry/ AGD financial status but I LOVE AGD products. What will we do when the go out of business next month after surviving in a volatile industry for two or three decades?"

Third: I have only met him once (or less), used his stuff for x amount of time, and visited 4 websites about him or by him but Tom Kay is god. AKA "Please Tom I am a teenager having an identity crisis who currently finds himself looking up to you. Could you please post here and boost my ego?"

Personally I must say guilty of all three in one form or another. I have only been playing thinking about aware of a few things in paintball for some two years now. Only when I became an adult did I manage to marshal the resources to really start playing and learning about this great game.

I think it is important to point out a couple of things highlighted perhaps best by this thread:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=210765&page=1&pp=30

and Tom's comment (and subsequent discussion) within.


Yes I do still own AGD, Zupe owns the inventory and is selling things. It is certainly not clear even if we did make something that people would buy it. Look at the slug body threads where the screams for product are answered but the product remains unsold.

There is a ton going on in the industry right now with the whole NPS/PMI consolidation and yet another new round of lawsuits. My take on that is that its not worth any companies time to develop new products, its better to go sue someone for the money the old products are generating.

I am sitting back until I see ABSOULUTELY CLEARLY that there is a true demand for a product that is either unpatentable or I already have a patent on. That is a pretty small window to shoot for and unlikely to happen soon. The forum is unreliable for marketing purposes, a few people can make a big noise.

AGD


First, AGD is not run by the players/ purchasers on this forum. Although we occasional think our narcissistic obsession with AGD is what keeps them in business (and at least in small part I am sure it is). The truth is AGD is in business because of the people at AGD being good at what they do and ALL the customers out there who buy their stuff. Now I know you and I have ego's that tell us it is us and only us that keeps AGD going but the truth is it is a much bigger world and no matter how many times it gets posted and commented on we as forum users are not likely to have more than the effect of static noise on the decision to do whatever it is that those at AGD choose to do.

Second, where we can have more than static influence is on our peers. I don't have a breathing friend within phone call distance who hasn't heard about how much fun AGD products have make paintball for me and how badly they need one. Nevermind those I have outfitted with mags.

Third, the best thing you and I can do for paintball (and I am sure for Tom) is first to just relax and assume things will be what we want them to be if we are proactive and ethical in our enjoyment of and influence on the development of the sport. And second post more Tom is god threads and fewer whining crying threads. Unless you are an engineer/ machinist with a large group of lawyers for friends and a healthy appetite for frustration you are not likely to be able to do much for AGD innovations. We really ought to leave all that to those already enjoying the mess.

Ok I am gonna go start a Tom is god thread and then go and enjoy what he has created.

[JRingold]

12 gram speed ball would be nuts because you would be bunkering guys when they are changing cartridges. I would like to see players respected for the style they play if they do it well. I would like to see that respect gained by either having a super techno barn burner or by having aquired the skill level to use a pump to maximum advantage.

AGD

You should visit Minneapolis in August... Farmland Paintball Club's 10-ball tournament is something unique.

[Ninjeff]

Thanks for the reply Tom. I was always interested to know where you stood as a player.
Its refreshing to see that the frustrations of the industry havent completely soiled your appreciation for the sport.

I personally do believe its a sport. Not a "game". And that includes scenario ball too. Granted, its more of a bastardized version of a sport, but a sport no less. Teams, point scoring, winners, losers, positions, the works. Its a sport.

[Ninjeff]

I see three trends in threads directed at AGD/ Tom.

First: whining, screaming, begging, crying, complaining . . . for new mag innovations/ products.

Second boils down to: "I am uniformed and have limited knowledge on the industry/ AGD financial status but I LOVE AGD products. What will we do when the go out of business next month after surviving in a volatile industry for two or three decades?"

Third: I have only met him once (or less), used his stuff for x amount of time, and visited 4 websites about him or by him but Tom Kay is god. AKA "Please Tom I am a teenager having an identity crisis who currently finds himself looking up to you. Could you please post here and boost my ego?"




I tried to move away from those in my questions. Tried to. Thats why i asked about his opinion on the sport as a player, and about what he would like AGD's legacy to be.
Although in retrospect i suppose the patent question has been done to death. Probably could have left that out.

And for the record, in a wierd twisted sense i DO think that the hardcore 'mag enthusiasts are what (at leats partially) keep AGD alive. AGD doesnt advertise (ive havent seen an ad in a magazine recently. ANd i buy them all) but our enthusiasm about the markers are contagious. We get excited about them, and so some new player gets excited too. He buys a mag, and sees why we are all excited. He gets excited and sells his buddy on a mag.....on and on and on. Word of mouth. And the hardcore like Tuna, LukesCustoms, and Rogue keep our need for innovative things satiated which keeps people interested, which continues the cycle.

Ill put it this way, if all mag users stopped posting on forums, all of them, i wonder what the effect would be on AGDs bottom line. (this is a "wonder", im not trying to be a smart***, i do really wonder what would happen)


(((and i sure hope you werent implying that im a teenager looking for an ego boost by asking Tom questions. In my thread starting post you'll see i was mearly looking for past things Tom had said, He was simply nice enough to let me ask him a few.)))

[matteusz]

I tried to move away from those in my questions. Tried to. Thats why i asked about his opinion on the sport as a player, and about what he would like AGD's legacy to be.
Although in retrospect i suppose the patent question has been done to death. Probably could have left that out.

And for the record, in a wierd twisted sense i DO think that the hardcore 'mag enthusiasts are what (at leats partially) keep AGD alive. AGD doesnt advertise (ive havent seen an ad in a magazine recently. ANd i buy them all) but our enthusiasm about the markers are contagious. We get excited about them, and so some new player gets excited too. He buys a mag, and sees why we are all excited. He gets excited and sells his buddy on a mag.....on and on and on. Word of mouth. And the hardcore like Tuna, LukesCustoms, and Rogue keep our need for innovative things satiated which keeps people interested, which continues the cycle.

Ill put it this way, if all mag users stopped posting on forums, all of them, i wonder what the effect would be on AGDs bottom line. (this is a "wonder", im not trying to be a smart***, i do really wonder what would happen)


(((and i sure hope you werent implying that im a teenager looking for an ego boost by asking Tom questions. In my thread starting post you'll see i was mearly looking for past things Tom had said, He was simply nice enough to let me ask him a few.)))

Nah no accusation meant. I guess it was really a bit of thread hijacking on my part. I just have this axe to grind about people throwing things up against Tom's bullet proof glass when they are not in the know with what is really going on behind the scenes. Players with little understanding making statements about the industry and telling AGD as a company what to do is a little egomeniacal in my opinion.

RRfireblade is great for digging all those quotes up for us. I also really appreciate Tom's reply. Although I have to admit I see it as something of a challenge to get a mech circut going. Something that focuses on skill and integrity and not on buying power and outer appearance. Alas I digress. You can read more on that topic here:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=215140

Where our conversation quickly digresses to how can we get mech tourney's going all over.

Anyway lovely posts I found them in no way whiny or repetative. :cheers:

[Ninjeff]

cool dude. Sometimes its hard to separate the general sarcasm form the "attacking" sarcasm.

I too, agree that an all mech tourney would be the way to go.

[rabidchihauhau]

'clink' 'clink'

(two cents)

if wishes were fishes pigs would have wings - or something like that...

Tom put his money where his desires were, both with his company and with the various efforts he supported over the years in trying to foster a 'planned' industry. I can say this because on several occassions, Tom was generous with both his financial and political support with projects that I was working on and asked him to back.

I tried, he tried, several others tried. We all tried REAL hard - heart-and-soul, brains AND money tried. It was not to be.

I think that the only point of divergence between his takes on the future of the industry and my personal view is that I believe (to borrow a phrase from other folks who are also no longer in the industry) that the train has already left the station. I think that there's too much inertia already built up to allow a renaissance to occur. Too much money and planning is invested in getting a return for the things already being backed.

Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't play the way you want to. As long as you can scrape up enough guys to make up two teams, you can do any damn thing you want - but don't expect big sponsorship, don't expect huge events and don't expect the existing companies to take you under their wing and begin to design and manufacture product to support your 'niche'.

And Tom - I entirely agree: THE most rewarding experience in paintball is to create and successfully execute a plan while others are trying their damndest to screw with it.

[Ninjeff]

See, i DONT think the train has left the station....well...let me re-phrase that:

I think it left the station, made a few stops, and is coming back around.
Look at the EXPLOSION of the woodsball market over the last few years. I know when i stopped playing in 01, you didnt call a gun a "gun" it was a marker. And everyone was trying to stray from any similarities to "war" games as possible. Now you have full on milsim, camo from almost every major clothing company, scenario games posting huge attendance, and tourneys like the SPPL gaining steam. Heck they now sell "markers" that look so much like real guns they "STRONGLY ADVISE YOU NOT TO DISPLAY THIS IN PUBLIC" (says on the box of my Tacamo Type 68)

Seems like slowly, but surely, the train is making its rounds. In the 6 years since i left the sport it has come around full circle to where it was when it started. Or, at least, in a sense.

the tourney crowd is still very much alive and kicking, but alot of the industry is starting to wake up and realize there are THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of players who live in the bush, just waiting to execute that perfect plan.

[Lohman446]

One train has left the station, is building momentum and will not be stopped anytime soon. Some of the passengers on it are going to be surprised when that momentum throws them off. There is a new train though, that seems to be sitting in the station and is unlikely to move for now. I don't know, we were talking about trains... and I got confused.

Train 1:
Once upon a time TK stepped into an industry from outside with ideas to make the game safer. These ideas turned to ways to make the game better. It was not with a massive outlay of capital (at first) but with innovation, blood, sweat, and tears. Hard work was the key to success. Others were there too, don't discount the contributions they made to paintball.

The key was with enough effort, with enough committment one could make a pretty decent living in the game, well catering to it. These people tried to build something over time. A good amount of their profits were poured back into the game as a whole, not necessarily to build their name and future revenue, but to build the game itself.

One could bring there ideas to the game, and alter the very landscape of paintball itself. Dave Youngblood and Dye committed to "bringing paintball out of the woods" and have been largely successful, we see an entire format that has almost a disdain for the woods. The last "national tournament", nationally recognized speedball field with a tree in it has left us with the Badlands removing that great field that should have served as a memory of where we had come from. To me it was "the" field. If I had to pick out a single field I liked more than others it was that, it exists only in my memory and I played less than a half dozen games on it. Don't discount others - TK saw constant air as a great part of the sport, his genorousity brought it to the normal paintballer, along with powerfeeds and many other innovations. SP/WDP/PVI saw an electronic marker, and like what they have done since then ore not, they brought it to us. Don't discount what people did in the past for recent wrongs, if you beleive them wrong. Look at the formation of the NPPL, a group of dedicated players attempting to bring us change.

Effort, dedication, not money ruled the sport. There were capital outlays, but not like what it would take today. The train that says the sport, as a whole, was ruled by the players for the good of the sport and not immediate monetary return. That train is gone, and its picking up speed. To effect changes in paintball today, the monetary outlay would be tremendous, more than one would have ever imagined in the day. A few of the old companies may think they are in control of that train, but with bigger money coming in, ruled by the demands of investors, they are on a train that they alone can no longer stop, and there footing on that train is less stable than anyone would like to beleive. Don't misunderstand me, effort and capital have always been needed. Effort is needed today, but the equation has changed to favor capital.

Is there good news in this? Of course, I mentioned two trains. Train 2

Certain things have fallen off of train number 1. Certain things that those who were trying to load it for a different journey are left behind for all of us to enjoy. Paint today is cheaper then ever. Equipment today is, out of the box, frankly better than it was before. Even if one choses to disagree with the better comment today, there is no doubt one can get competetive equipment for a fraction of the cost of years ago. "Specialty" equipment that it took to play is becoming common place. Drives to find HPA get shorter and shorter, as more fields see it as a staple of doing business. CO2 is readily available in most any area. And yes, for those that have none available, theres even multiple marker choices that require neither, using propane or batteries.

When one mentions playing paintball they are no longer looked at with a sideways glance. There is a good chance more than one person who works with you has either played it at some level, or is interested in playing it. There are more players out there - the pie that those founding fathers sought to make bigger is bigger.

There are different classes of paintball. Stock class tournaments are out there, granted they are about as hard to find as "normal" paintball was years ago, but they exist for those who wish to find them. Woodsball, organized woodsball is out there, both in scenario games and a seeming resurgance of woods tournaments. Scenario play is out there. Speedball, and the tournament paintball that it brings is out there. There different enough, and seperated enough from each other, as TK stated, there players can be totally different, and others can choose to play any style they want. You can go with a group of friends in the woods with more readily available equipment, you can play in almost any style you are willing to invest effort in. And its easier than it was in the beginning. That, and advances have made it safer. It was a miracle every weekend at one point that noone was hurt - seriously - playing, now playing paintball seems relatively safe, safety gear, safety standards have kept at bay some of the risks, and the mumbled explanations about split lips, welts on the cheeks, and any number of "injuries" that were common enough at one point.

So, is paintball worse off or better? For the average everyday player its probably better. In the long term? We have lost those who would advance the game for love of the sport, sure they are still out there, but they will not have the voices that others once had, others have burned out and left us taking great ideas with them. We now have to cope with a paintball world run from the board room, not the field and shops that are an everyday part of the game. As concentration is placed on profit we will probably lose some of the diversity we have. As "big business" gets involved small retailers will feel the pinch of trying to compete with companies that can buy, and sell, a million dollars of inventory at deep discounts.

I'm not scared of where paintball is today.... I am scared of where paintball will go in its next 15 years.

[Ninjeff]

"We have lost those who would advance the game for love of the sport,"

I could not, in anyway, agree more with that statement.

However, ive been into paintball for 10 years, not as much as some, but definitely more than others. And i can tell you that woodsball was never as big as it is now. Never. Ever Ever. Sure, all the "new" players played in the woods, and indeed some vets when needed. But there was always a push towards the speedball court. I cant remember any other time when this amount of support for woodsball players existed.

Regardless, i agree that the greta thing is that whatever you want, game play or marker wise, is available for your taking. Its great really.

What does paintball need imo? An organized governing body. Something to "standardise" the tourney scene. I think its a given that you cant let a bunch of people crazy enough to get shot at with balls of liquid fired at 200mph govern themselves. It just doesnt work when there is no organized body to answer to. We HAVE to have a over-seeing body for tournaments. There has to be real repercussions for cheating and other things.

I dont know what all teh talk about trains was...lol...but what can you do?

All i know is that my train goes "chuff-chuff" instead of "choo-choo".

[rabidchihauhau]

Once upon a time, some people recognized that the industry needed: an industry organization with some teeth (safety regulation enforcement, field practices enforcement, national advertising and marketing, loose but defined 'intro to paintball' practices, law making body, lobby group) and a sports governing body or bodies with teeth - particularly in the arms race arena.

Those never happened.

Now, even if they were to happen, they would be nothing but a tool of some special interest(s) within the industry. There's just too much money, troo many external connections, too many non-paintbalkl community folks and too much 'weight' behind the corporate entities for it to be any other way.

The earlier trend was for the 'small' (relatively speaking, of course) corporate paintball giants to corrupt any such efforts towards their own ends (which is why there aren't any now). It will be far worse and far less transparent in the future.

***

No matter how you slice it, the tournament scene, as well as the so-called 'new' return to woodsball competition (funny, tournaments used to mean woodsball, now we have to stick that word in front of it...) have never been anything other than a marketing and advertising arm for a few large companies and a couple of hangers-on who are content with the leavings. If anyone thinks otherwise, they just don't realize how badly they are being used.

[Lohman446]

Once upon a time, some people recognized that the industry needed: an industry organization with some teeth (safety regulation enforcement, field practices enforcement, national advertising and marketing, loose but defined 'intro to paintball' practices, law making body, lobby group) and a sports governing body or bodies with teeth - particularly in the arms race arena.

Those never happened.

Now, even if they were to happen, they would be nothing but a tool of some special interest(s) within the industry. There's just too much money, troo many external connections, too many non-paintbalkl community folks and too much 'weight' behind the corporate entities for it to be any other way.

The earlier trend was for the 'small' (relatively speaking, of course) corporate paintball giants to corrupt any such efforts towards their own ends (which is why there aren't any now). It will be far worse and far less transparent in the future.

***

No matter how you slice it, the tournament scene, as well as the so-called 'new' return to woodsball competition (funny, tournaments used to mean woodsball, now we have to stick that word in front of it...) have never been anything other than a marketing and advertising arm for a few large companies and a couple of hangers-on who are content with the leavings. If anyone thinks otherwise, they just don't realize how badly they are being used.

I have to agree. Decisions made now, at least for the sport as a whole, will be made in corporate board rooms to protect investor interests. The "move" to more safety, if we ever see it, will be to guard against liability, not for the good of the sport - I use that only as an example.

Maybe we're wrong, maybe there is a grass roots movement somewhere, but I just don't see it. Paintball players today are not organized enough, are generally not long lived enough (in the sport), and generally don't care enough to effect change on a large scale.

[AGD]

Sadly, Steve is absolutely right on the money...

AGD

[rabidchihauhau]

Lohman - I agree with you too.

Not only that, but:

the ONLY reason to discuss it at any length is to be able to establish a solid base for future claims of "I told you so."

There are additional pressures at work - and a very interesting take on the growth of the industry:

Additional pressures would be - continued export of product mfg overseas (seriously putting a competitive nail in the coffin of homegrown startups. They might have the next best idea, but they won't be able to compete on either cost or margin at the retail level.

Here's the interesting observation: from 1996 until about 2003, the industry saw unprecedented growth. This was in a climate that was, at best, neutrally disposed towards all things "military". Someone else mentioned here that today we're back to calling paintball guns 'guns' and referenced the need to call them 'markers' back then.

NOW, we are in a decidely pro 'military' environment and guess what - despite what all the folks who are trying to sell their companies for multi-millions say - we're in a definate fall off. (My guess is one equal to the growth, which I believe averaged somewhere between 23 and 35 percent, per year, for a five or so year long period.)

Go figure that one.

Here's a hint. That growth was spurred by - low cost product, highly visible placement of that product (chain stores) and a huge potential, uneducated market.

Today, (discounting new population growth) we have an educated market (anyone inclined to give it a try has done so), the shelf-space in the chain stores has diminished, so-called low cost has been eclipsed by, for one, airsoft and no money is being spent, at all, in advertising the sport on a national basis. (And that's because if you pay for that campaign, you have to send those new customers somewhere to make your money back - and where are they going to go? Fred's field down the road? Oh yeah, that's right, you can send them to one of those National Certified Fields, the ones reviewed and approved by the National Paintball Council...

[Ninjeff]

The out look seems bleak.
Interesting point you raise with the "downturn in the market/ getting back to woodsball"

However, i wonder if there arent other forces at work. Indeed, coming into the late 90s the WHOLE economy (the countries) was at a high, and took a downturn in the past 6 years. I dont find it any stretch to beleive that those who play paintball may have deemed it expendable in thier daily hobbies. Combined with the fact that teh industry seems to have stopped "trying" may be what caused this recent decline.

I also wonder if our current national "history" (9/11, Iraq War, terror, Afganastan etc) has any relation to this rise in milsim popularity. Im not saying thats what i beleive, but it is an interesting sociological question.

As far as my opinion on the sport, i believe it is still save-able. But i dont think we can expect the rest of the world to care about paintball until paintball cares about paintball. Perhaps there was just too much of a push in the late 90s towards being a "legit" sport (ie making money) and the whole house of cards collapsed under its own weight. Perhaps the sport is just going through its own "teenage" years and will eventualy grow out of it. Maybe.

I can tell you one thing, until the people that really care about the sport start to effect change, things probably are not going to change.

Another thing i wonder, is how much MORE popular the sport would be if the paint prices became more affordable.
A case was $80 when istarted in 97, and, sure enough, its still $80. (for quality paint)
Am i to beleive that EVERYTHING else in the industry figured out how to stream-line production costs EXCEPT paint manufacturers?
Again, i dont pretend to know the inner-workings of the industry...but i DO wonder how many more people would play if they could actually afford to PLAY.
Now they can buy a marker that spews a case out in just a few minutes, yet, they cant afford to pay for the fuel to do so.I know spending $90.00's every weekend is something i just cant afford to do.

Spending $40.00 is.

[turbo chicken]

...I remember when the definintion of a pro paintball player was that he used technology LOWER than the typical gun on the field (12 gram days). If I was king of this industry I would point it back in that direction and sort the players out by skill instead of technopower. ...

I have that little comic that depicts this on my desktop right now. (it was posted on another tread here) I think it still holds true ...


the beginner ... dude with pgp looking marker
the expierenced ... dude with camo's and spyder looking fun
the advanced ... dude with full out camo superupped gun and remote
the pro ... dude with pgp looking marker

[3DSteve]

Tom -
I'm sure you already know about this, but you should check out the OSC (Old School Challenge). It's basically a limited paint, pump tournament series that is really gaining a lot of steam.
www.oscseries.com
Sal Briguglio at Xtreme Paintball Park near St. Louis is hosting an OSC event Sept 15 and 16. You should get some guys together, dust off a few pump mags and enter a team...or at least come down and check it out. It's not that far from you and it seems to be right up your ally.
http://xtremepaintballpark.homestead.com/events.html
peace

[RRfireblade]

Before you want to claim defeat , you have to agree on what qualifies the sport as a success.

Some , it seems , expects or had expected Paintball as a sport to grow untamed untill it rivaled Base/Softball , Basketball and the like. That was seriously flawed thinking IMO , even for the 80's and particularly now. We're talking about a sport based on groups of people shooting each other with guns. How could anyone really think that was going to take over as a national pastime ? Professinal ranks equal to what . . . Nascar ? Pro Baseball ? You have to be kidding with all due respect. ;) There was never a chance of that no matter how organized you think you could get the industry. That being said . . .



Paintball has pretty much leveled out , give or take , to what it will probably ever be. The 'big' growth the industry saw ( and the one they many bet thier farms on) , IMO was a fad like any other , Mountain Biking , Snowboarding , (Extreme sports) etc. A sport that got a little attention mainstream , little TV coverage here and there , little Shatner :D , an influx of some new blood and then a market rush by mostly internet based paper companies trying to cash in a make a quick buck . . . artificial growth . . . big business attraction to said bucks. Unfortunately that did more harm than good as what we saw as a result was that was a nice little , or not so nice to many . . . calm , for the few years after.

So here we are , fairly even keel more or less. I don't expect much big change from here on out , the people that really enjoy it will continue to support it. I'd also expect those long termers will help to shape the future , the bad 'tude's "should" fall off as they have less places to play and there are less people to put up it. I'd then expect even the BIG business' influence will fall off somewhat as they fail to see big returns on their investments and take thier necks out of the direct line of fire. Following that , look to see some (new) smaller companies possibly have some room to play one again. Probably not a whole lot but some. I know I'm seeing more business because of it and am having a hard time getting product out to the few small retailers I deal to. "They" tell me it's just the begining . . . I guess I'll see.

The only thing I worry about for the long term future of the sport is the same thing that has always threatend it and it's getting worse every day.

Cost of Land ,Taxes and Insurance. If anything kills it , it will be that. Wouldn't matter what sport you were playing either. If your income and what you can charge is dependant on primarily un-employed , underage weekenders . . . you've got problems. :D If your in or near big city , you gots more. :ninja:

IMO.

[nathanjones008]

I believe the market is doing very, very well. It is not at its peak but paintball is like the stock market , it has its ups and downs. Where I live at the sport is exploding, there are more people playing than ever. There is still NEW guns being released on a normal basis. The companies are making profits, if not they wouldnt be in business. There is companies mergring and companies taking over companies, nothing new. I am excited to be a paintballer at this point. The cost of paintball gear is cheaper than ever! ;) There is so much competition that is what lowers the price. For example, i just bought a rail and it cost me under 400.00 that technology used to cost around 1000 bones. I can get a case of paint for 30.00. I coulndt do that 3 years ago.(paintball is in favor of the customer) In conclusion things are not the same as there were 5 years ago or so. But change is inevitable. There is much to be happy about take advantage of these cheaper prices :cheers:

[Gadget]

Interesting read - there's a similar (albeit more UK-biased) discussion going on here at the moment, worth a read:

http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=84910