Let's say I break into your house....

[punkncat]

Got this on myspace, never seen it put so simply.....maybe too political we will see?


Recently large demonstrations have taken place
across the country protesting the fact that Congress
is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration.

Certain people are angry that
the US might protect its own
borders, might make it harder
to sneak into this country and,
once here, to stay indefinitely.
Let me see if I correctly understand
the thinking behind these protests.
Let's say I break into your house.
Let's say that when you discover
me in your house, you insist that I leave.
But I say, "I've made all
the beds and washed the
dishes and did the laundry
and swept the floors. I've
done all the things you don't
like to do. I'm hard-working
and honest
(except for when I broke into your house).

According to the protesters:
You are Required to let me stay in your house
You are Required to add me to your family's insurance plan
You are Required to Educate my kids
You are Required to Provide other benefits to me & to my family
(my husband will do all of your yard work because
he is also hard-working and honest, except for that
breaking in part).

If you try to call the police or force me out,
I will call my friends who will picket your
house carrying signs that proclaim my
RIGHT to be there.

It's only fair, after all, because you have
a nicer house than I do, and I'm just
trying to better myself. I'm a hard-working
and honest, person, except for well,
you know, I did break into your house
And what a deal it is for me!!!

I live in your house, contributing only a
fraction of the cost of my keep, and
there is nothing you can do about it
without being accused of cold,
uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and
bigoted behavior.

Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you learn
MY LANGUAGE!!! so you can
communicate with me.

Why can't people see how ridiculous
this is?! Only in America .
if you agree, pass it on (in English).
Share it if you see the value of it.

If not, blow it off.........
along with your future Social Security
funds, and a lot of other things.

[thecavemankevin]

do i agree? si sinior

[behemoth]

do i agree? si sinior

caveman, what an el doucho.

[maxama10]

Didnt someone brake into your house josh? I remember something about a folding chair and a window, was that you?

[trevorjk]

odd... i had a random visit 2 hours ago from some one im not sure of... scared me to the point of getting baseball bat. they were gone before i got out of bed

[magman007]

Didnt someone brake into your house josh? I remember something about a folding chair and a window, was that you?

No, that was triangle

[CaptaiN_JacK]

Well put.

They're called illegal immigrants for a reason. I would write a long rant about how the entire illegal immigrant rights movement basically amounts to a bunch of scam artists and fraudsters trying to justify and legalize their illegal actions, but I just got off a 12 hr shift at the factory and I need sleep really bad.

[AirAssault]

Im pretty liberal with my political views, but this is one point on which I differ from other liberals. If you didn't come into this country legally, hit the freakin door. Sorry, but the fact that you are here makes you a criminal, no matter why you came or what your sign reads. Pls, go home and come back when you can do it without breaking the law.

[Lohman446]

Well I agree that coming into this country illegally is, well illegal and should be addressed I guess my views are different from others.

Is it right that a county that consumes the majority of the worlds resources, well possessing just a fraction of the population close its doors to anyone who wants to be part of it? Especially if said people are willing to be part of the system, work hard, and simply try to provide a better life for their children?

Illegal = wrong. Closing the borders and denying access = morally wrong on many many levels.

[ahellers]

Well I agree that coming into this country illegally is, well illegal and should be addressed I guess my views are different from others.

Is it right that a county that consumes the majority of the worlds resources, well possessing just a fraction of the population close its doors to anyone who wants to be part of it? Especially if said people are willing to be part of the system, work hard, and simply try to provide a better life for their children?

Illegal = wrong. Closing the borders and denying access = morally wrong on many many levels.
agreed, while Im not for amnisty on any level. we still need to remember that amarica is not a country club. anyone looked at that big statue in new york laitly?

t

[teufelhunden]

agreed, while Im not for amnisty on any level. we still need to remember that amarica is not a country club. anyone looked at that big statue in new york laitly?

t

It's not a country club but its further not a public lake. If you want to come here there is the right way and the wrong way. Doing it the wrong way should be punished. Since we've been letting it go for so damned long, I wouldn't have a problem with just locking down the borders for a period to sort things out and get the proper systems in place. Seems like it's making the problem more difficult by letting people continue to flow in while we're trying to secure that very process.

I'm all for fences.
I'm all for armed border agents who are allowed to actually use their weapons.
I'd support legislation making the penalties for illegally entering our country much stiffer, and enforcing enforcement.
etc.

Not anti-immigrant, anti-illegal immigrant. I work too hard and pay too much money to the government to let some system skirting, resource abusing illegal reap the benefits.

This country used to be a melting pot of ideas, cultures, etc. We are distinctly American-- our ancestors came here to become Americans. To steal someone else's words, these illegals are not coming here to join the melting pot. They're here to make a tossed salad; they have no desire to become an American, just to be a Mexican/Salvadoran/Dominican in America -- sending American dollars out of America.

[Dark Side]

It's not a country club but its further not a public lake. If you want to come here there is the right way and the wrong way. Doing it the wrong way should be punished. Since we've been letting it go for so damned long, I wouldn't have a problem with just locking down the borders for a period to sort things out and get the proper systems in place. Seems like it's making the problem more difficult by letting people continue to flow in while we're trying to secure that very process.

I'm all for fences.
I'm all for armed border agents who are allowed to actually use their weapons.
I'd support legislation making the penalties for illegally entering our country much stiffer, and enforcing enforcement.
etc.

Not anti-immigrant, anti-illegal immigrant. I work too hard and pay too much money to the government to let some system skirting, resource abusing illegal reap the benefits.

This country used to be a melting pot of ideas, cultures, etc. We are distinctly American-- our ancestors came here to become Americans. To steal someone else's words, these illegals are not coming here to join the melting pot. They're here to make a tossed salad; they have no desire to become an American, just to be a Mexican/Salvadoran/Dominican in America -- sending American dollars out of America.

QFT!

[punkncat]

It's not a country club but its further not a public lake. If you want to come here there is the right way and the wrong way. Doing it the wrong way should be punished. Since we've been letting it go for so damned long, I wouldn't have a problem with just locking down the borders for a period to sort things out and get the proper systems in place. Seems like it's making the problem more difficult by letting people continue to flow in while we're trying to secure that very process.

I'm all for fences.
I'm all for armed border agents who are allowed to actually use their weapons.
I'd support legislation making the penalties for illegally entering our country much stiffer, and enforcing enforcement.
etc.

Not anti-immigrant, anti-illegal immigrant. I work too hard and pay too much money to the government to let some system skirting, resource abusing illegal reap the benefits.

This country used to be a melting pot of ideas, cultures, etc. We are distinctly American-- our ancestors came here to become Americans. To steal someone else's words, these illegals are not coming here to join the melting pot. They're here to make a tossed salad; they have no desire to become an American, just to be a Mexican/Salvadoran/Dominican in America -- sending American dollars out of America.

Marry me..... ;)

[Pneumagger]

I say let em in... but for God's sake, quit throwing money at 'em.

They don't pay taxes (hardly) or insurance, medical, blah blah blah. The US is currently making it very attractive to illegally immigrate, especially when deporting people. You know why they come over here and work for crappy salaries? Because they know they don't have to foot the bill of LIVING or SUPPORTING THEIR FAMILIES. Kinda like when you were 15 and working at McDonalds living off your parents... $400/disposable income per week is a helluva deal.

Personally, if had to choose to between being myself, going to college and making $60000 a year and paying for myself in the world -=versus=- making $400 a week landscaping and haveing Uncle Sam pay my Living Expenses I might just take the $400 week job.

So where do I stand? (TLDR):
No need to waste money on a fence or more stringent border protection. Just stop giving them money and crack down on illegal employment HARD. Make it harder for them to survive here than Mexico. They're not dumb, they'll figure it out.

[robnix]

Well I agree that coming into this country illegally is, well illegal and should be addressed I guess my views are different from others.

Is it right that a county that consumes the majority of the worlds resources, well possessing just a fraction of the population close its doors to anyone who wants to be part of it? Especially if said people are willing to be part of the system, work hard, and simply try to provide a better life for their children?

Illegal = wrong. Closing the borders and denying access = morally wrong on many many levels.

Noone's discussing keeping people from coming here legally, people all around the world are invited to be a part of this country every year. I know this first hand, my Mom and I moved here legally in 1973, and have both been naturalized. The process is difficult and takes years, but by going through that process you've shown that you want to be a part of this country; not just some random carpetbagger that's here to take advantage of that abundance of resources without understanding what you're getting.

What I consider morally wrong, is entering a country illegally to exploit it's resources without any desire to become part of the culture of that country.

[iambored]

Someone mentioned illegals wanting rights? In America? I'm sorry, but in America only legal citizens have rights. (At least that's what I remember from that Bill of Rights lesson in school)
Put up fences and let the border patrol shoot people. See how long people want to illegally enter the country when there are guards shooting at them when they come to close to certain sections of the wall.

[Lohman446]

It's not a country club but its further not a public lake. If you want to come here there is the right way and the wrong way. Doing it the wrong way should be punished. Since we've been letting it go for so damned long, I wouldn't have a problem with just locking down the borders for a period to sort things out and get the proper systems in place. Seems like it's making the problem more difficult by letting people continue to flow in while we're trying to secure that very process.

I'm all for fences.
I'm all for armed border agents who are allowed to actually use their weapons.
I'd support legislation making the penalties for illegally entering our country much stiffer, and enforcing enforcement.
etc.

Not anti-immigrant, anti-illegal immigrant. I work too hard and pay too much money to the government to let some system skirting, resource abusing illegal reap the benefits.

This country used to be a melting pot of ideas, cultures, etc. We are distinctly American-- our ancestors came here to become Americans. To steal someone else's words, these illegals are not coming here to join the melting pot. They're here to make a tossed salad; they have no desire to become an American, just to be a Mexican/Salvadoran/Dominican in America -- sending American dollars out of America.

I agree the borders need to be secured.

However, you would shoot someone who's only goal (or crime) is to try to make a better life for themselves?

Yes, coming here illegally is wrong, and needs dealt with. So is speeding. I would commit crimes to keep my child from starving... so I guess I have to look at the people who would come here illegally with a bit of empathy.

I am thankful every year I was born here and don't have to make these decisions.

[Lohman446]

They don't pay taxes (hardly)

Source that? Isn't part of the fault companies for not taking withholdings?

And I think you should consider that at least some illegals do pay taxes. How I have no clue, but I have seen it sited before.

[skife]

i'm all about immigration legally. i was actually talking to this cuban girl that sits behind me in a college class, she came here legally and will be a citizen in a few months.

If your going to come here though, at least learn to communicate with people from here.
come here to better yourself, don't send money back to the homeland.

honestly though, if they want to come here legally and better THEMSELVS, go right ahead.
but don't come here, tresspass, jump the fence, and not pay taxes or even have any government know you exist here and then leach off of our resources and then take what you have earned and not paied taxes on.

maybe let legal immigration be easier?

[robnix]

maybe let legal immigration be easier?

I asked a rabbi once why Jews didn't try to convert people and why it was so difficult fpr someone to convert. He told me it was because we wanted people that were converting for the right reasons, that it was important to be sure that they really wanted to convert.

Make immigration cheap, but keep it difficult.

[Pneumagger]

maybe let legal immigration be easier?

I don't see how it could be easier than sneaking across the border at night and thumbing your way up the interstate till you find trabajo. Heck, until you get 3-4 states away from the border, EVERYTHING is bilingual like it's some sort of requirement to provide Spanish communication in an English country out of our pockets for people (supposedly) without rights.

What is the Republican stance on this issue?

[Babylon 5]

But why build a fence when a mine field is so much cheaper?

I saw on the local news where they were having a debate between the to sides on this issue and the pro amensty person for all illegals used in her deffence "Europe has same amout of undocumented citizens as the US with about 12 million." Am I the only one who finds it funny that she lob a whole continet together and compares it to the US which is a lone country. If anything it just proves how serve of a problem we have.

But honestly what needs to be done is build the fence and then find out the best way incorprate the "undocumented citizens" into the country. Cause lets face it tracking down the 12 million "undocumented citizens" is not really fesiable or cost effective. While doing all of the above enforce the current laws of imigration.

Also so everyone knows being here "illegally" in the US is not a criminal offence so the only action of punishing the "undocumented citizens" that come in after the fence has be errected is deportation.

[teufelhunden]

I agree the borders need to be secured.

However, you would shoot someone who's only goal (or crime) is to try to make a better life for themselves?

Yes, coming here illegally is wrong, and needs dealt with. So is speeding. I would commit crimes to keep my child from starving... so I guess I have to look at the people who would come here illegally with a bit of empathy.

I am thankful every year I was born here and don't have to make these decisions.

I don't really think shooting everybody coming over illegally is what anybody is proposing; but if those who were crossing were aware there was a legitimate risk of facing armed opposition to their crossing they might think twice.

The simplest solution to keeping your child in clothes is to take steps beforehand to ensure your continued ability to support those whom you [generally] willingly bring into this world. It's like going to the ghetto and seeing women with 7 kids and no jobs. wtf.

The entire immigration issue is really broken down into two parts, yet they converge into one. First, is security. Keeping this country tough to illegally enter will force those looking to do us harm to try and come in through the proper channels, forcing them to face more scrutiny on their way in. Secondly, it's about continued future economic stability for the lower and lower middle classes, which obviously supports the higher socioeconomic classes. However, when you look at the idea of securing the border, that solves both problems.

Amnesty [or some let's-not-say-it-is-but-we-all-know-it-is thing] isn't the solution. One of the most foolish arguments I've heard from republicans [NOT conservatives] on this issue is how much it would cost to find and remove the majority of those living here illegally. That completely flies in the face of the just-below-the-surface idea of small government; we generally feel that government spending should be kept to a minimum -except- in areas of defense and security. Fools.

And, of course, there are those that swim over and work hard, try to Americanize themselves, learn the language, pay their taxes, etc. However, just like everywhere else in life, the bad apples ruin the whole bushel.

[Raven001]

I say let em in... but for God's sake, quit throwing money at 'em.

They don't pay taxes (hardly) or insurance, medical, blah blah blah. The US is currently making it very attractive to illegally immigrate, especially when deporting people. You know why they come over here and work for crappy salaries? Because they know they don't have to foot the bill of LIVING or SUPPORTING THEIR FAMILIES. Kinda like when you were 15 and working at McDonalds living off your parents... $400/disposable income per week is a helluva deal.

Personally, if had to choose to between being myself, going to college and making $60000 a year and paying for myself in the world -=versus=- making $400 a week landscaping and haveing Uncle Sam pay my Living Expenses I might just take the $400 week job.

So where do I stand? (TLDR):
No need to waste money on a fence or more stringent border protection. Just stop giving them money and crack down on illegal employment HARD. Make it harder for them to survive here than Mexico. They're not dumb, they'll figure it out.

I'm a bit fuzzy on how it works exactly down there in the land of the somewhat free and sometimes brave but up here in the cold white north, when you work, federal taxes are deducted from your take home pay. When you buy something, you pay federal and provincial (like state) taxes. You can’t get licence plates without proof of insurance.

Also up here, you'll find it hard to get legitimate work without a social insurance number (like Social Security I think).

How in the name of Allah does someone sneak into the Homeland of the Secure and get a really sweet low paying job without anyone knowing about it?

But really if you want to stop the tide of hispanics comming to your country, cut your own grass, pick your own fruits and vegitables, clean your own house and pool, frame your own house etc. I'm sure you have lots of american born people currently living on welfare that could take their place...

[Lohman446]

I don't really think shooting everybody coming over illegally is what anybody is proposing; but if those who were crossing were aware there was a legitimate risk of facing armed opposition to their crossing they might think twice.

Border agents are armed...

Judging by the amount of people who die trying to do it every year I'm not sure it is as easy as some think it is to cross. Could be wrong.

[ahellers]

I hear all this talk about fences, please tell me im not the only one who knows how to jump a fence. :rolleyes:

t

[MaD_SaM]

So I guess just because the Native Americans didn’t have fences on the beaches of Plymouth and an established Immigration system it was okay for William Bradford and the rest of the pilgrims to make North America there “New World”. When in reality it wasn’t made it was stolen!


Where would we be if the natives had taken a similar stance and not gone to the aid of the pilgrim’s?

[Tac-OneFun]

gj Mad Sam.... lets take 5 steps back to review what happened in the past and noone could possibly change. what a great use of time.

using your argument... perhaps the Indians should have been more aggresive in keeping us out. Then they wouldn't have been overrun and slaughtered.

Therefore, we should be more aggressive in keeping the Illegal Immigrants out so they dont overrun our country.

Wow, thanks... your logic just helped my view on Illegal Immigration. Sucks when your arguments backfire eh?

[Lohman446]

gj Mad Sam.... lets take 5 steps back to review what happened in the past and noone could possibly change. what a great use of time.

using your argument... perhaps the Indians should have been more aggresive in keeping us out. Then they wouldn't have been overrun and slaughtered.

Therefore, we should be more aggressive in keeping the Illegal Immigrants out so they dont overrun our country.

Wow, thanks... your logic just helped my view on Illegal Immigration. Sucks when your arguments backfire eh?

Sucks when you have zero ability to understand there may be another side of an issue

[Tac-OneFun]

Sucks when you have zero ability to understand there may be another side of an issue


why would i care about the other side of the issue? Illegal Immigrants are criminals and not legal US citizens. They, therefore, should not have a say or argument for their cause.

Would you side with a child molester arguing for NAMBLA? Would you side with a murderer arguing for the abolishment of the death penalty?

[Pneumagger]

I'm a bit fuzzy on how it works exactly down there in the land of the somewhat free and sometimes brave but up here in the cold white north, when you work, federal taxes are deducted from your take home pay. When you buy something, you pay federal and provincial (like state) taxes. You can’t get licence plates without proof of insurance.

Also up here, you'll find it hard to get legitimate work without a social insurance number (like Social Security I think).

How in the name of Allah does someone sneak into the Homeland of the Secure and get a really sweet low paying job without anyone knowing about it?

Employers tend to hide the fact that an employee is an illegal if they have any working for them. They simply pay them cash "under the table" at the end of the week. By doing so, there is no record of illegal immigrants working there and taxes are not aid by the company or the immigrants - Which makes it easier for the employers to dodge pentalties and fines for hiring workers illegally. Just about everyone has done it in the past as a kid working for a friend of the family. For examle, alot of paintball fields may not want to deal with the legal documentation of employing the refs so they just pay the kids with an envelope full of cash or paint at the end of the week.

There are already immigrants here and by word of mouth they find thier way to employers willing to hire them under the table.


I'm sure you have lots of american born people currently living on welfare that could take their place...
Why the heck would they want to work for themselves and make threir own $20k a year when government welfare just freakin gives it to them? I feel some sort of internal conflict comin in not entirely distant future. May not be an all out civil war... but it'll be pretty big.

[Dark Side]

Employers tend to hide the fact that an employee is an illegal if they have any working for them. They simply pay them cash "under the table" at the end of the week. By doing so, there is no record of illegal immigrants working there and taxes are not aid by the company or the immigrants - Which makes it easier for the employers to dodge pentalties and fines for hiring workers illegally. Just about everyone has done it in the past as a kid working for a friend of the family. For examle, alot of paintball fields may not want to deal with the legal documentation of employing the refs so they just pay the kids with an envelope full of cash or paint at the end of the week.

There are already immigrants here and by word of mouth they find thier way to employers willing to hire them under the table.


Why the heck would they want to work for themselves and make threir own $20k a year when government welfare just freakin gives it to them? I feel some sort of internal conflict comin in not entirely distant future. May not be an all out civil war... but it'll be pretty big.

Don't forget by these people willing to work for less than an American citizen that the companies make more money in the end. It's actually more economic for them to hire illegals.

[SCpoloRicker]

why would i care about the other side of the issue? Illegal Immigrants are criminals and not legal US citizens. They, therefore, should not have a say or argument for their cause.

Would you side with a child molester arguing for NAMBLA? Would you side with a murderer arguing for the abolishment of the death penalty?

How do you feel about Hitler. Say what you want about the tenents of national socialism, Dude, but at least it's an ethos.


maybe not an all out civil war, but it'll be be pretty big

Mr. Titor? :)

[robnix]

Employers tend to hide the fact that an employee is an illegal if they have any working for them. They simply pay them cash "under the table" at the end of the week. By doing so, there is no record of illegal immigrants working there and taxes are not aid by the company or the immigrants - Which makes it easier for the employers to dodge pentalties and fines for hiring workers illegally. Just about everyone has done it in the past as a kid working for a friend of the family. For examle, alot of paintball fields may not want to deal with the legal documentation of employing the refs so they just pay the kids with an envelope full of cash or paint at the end of the week.

There are already immigrants here and by word of mouth they find thier way to employers willing to hire them under the table.


Why the heck would they want to work for themselves and make threir own $20k a year when government welfare just freakin gives it to them? I feel some sort of internal conflict comin in not entirely distant future. May not be an all out civil war... but it'll be pretty big.

Last year I was working for a land development company that put up condos and townhouses. My company and the contractors we worked with to do the building all made sure that each employee had the proper paperwork. Taxes and social security were paid by everyone, there was no cash under the table. Of course, the paperwork that was provided may not have been legitimate...watch your SSN carefully, especially the ones that belong to the elderly and the newborn.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/


Linda Trevino, who lives in a Chicago suburb, applied for a job last year at a local Target department store, and was denied. The reason? She already worked there -- or rather, her Social Security number already worked there.

Day workers on the other hand, like the ones that will gather outside Home Depot are paid under the table, but even they can be considered contractors responsible for their own taxes.

[bjjb99]

Border agents are armed...


There are National Guard troops along the border as well, but they are not allowed to fire. For that matter, they are not allowed to apprehend people entering the U.S. illegally. Several months ago a National Guard unit was attacked by what were likely drug smugglers who had entered the U.S. from Mexico near Nogales. The Guard unit was forced to retreat. The attackers went back to Mexico after the incident.

I'm wondering when the day will come where the U.S. government just annexes a 10 mile wide strip of land along the borders and turns it into a long thin military base. I guess a few border communities (El Paso, anyone?) would suffer, though, so it's not likely to happen. ;)

BJJB

[Lohman446]

why would i care about the other side of the issue? Illegal Immigrants are criminals and not legal US citizens. They, therefore, should not have a say or argument for their cause.

Would you side with a child molester arguing for NAMBLA? Would you side with a murderer arguing for the abolishment of the death penalty?

I theoretically support the death penalty. However, I do not in practice. Well I agree it deters crime I also note its expensive. It is more expensive to give someone the full appeals process and execute them than it is to house them for life. I don't want the appeals process shortened....

Chances are you have broken a law in your life. Does that make everything you do after that wrong? Sped to get to work? Well, you shouldn't even be there in the first place.

While I agree something needs to be done about imigration I am not of the extreme argument that some have that its an instant lock down of the border and massive deportation. Secure the borders, but I don't think there is an effective way to deport now, and I think it would destabalize things. Yes, they are here illegally and that needs to be addressed. But we also have other things to consider.

[Lohman446]

There are National Guard troops along the border as well, but they are not allowed to fire. For that matter, they are not allowed to apprehend people entering the U.S. illegally. Several months ago a National Guard unit was attacked by what were likely drug smugglers who had entered the U.S. from Mexico near Nogales. The Guard unit was forced to retreat. The attackers went back to Mexico after the incident.

I'm wondering when the day will come where the U.S. government just annexes a 10 mile wide strip of land along the borders and turns it into a long thin military base. I guess a few border communities (El Paso, anyone?) would suffer, though, so it's not likely to happen. ;)

BJJB

The point is this. Are we willing to give our agents shoot to kill orders (because there are no other shoot orders)? I'm not talking the aggressive ones who attack our agents, I'm talking just illegal immigrants in general. If we are, then we are shooting them just because they wanted a better life. If we are not, and do not give the orders to (as is the case now) then its... well a problem with effectiveness

[teufelhunden]

The point is this. Are we willing to give our agents shoot to kill orders (because there are no other shoot orders)? I'm not talking the aggressive ones who attack our agents, I'm talking just illegal immigrants in general. If we are, then we are shooting them just because they wanted a better life. If we are not, and do not give the orders to (as is the case now) then its... well a problem with effectiveness


Some would argue they'd have a better life if they killed George Bush. Does that make it ok?

Is it OK to steal from your company for a better life?

Do we allow child molesters to practice their... thing... because they think it is fulfilling and hence, makes their life better?

Since someone else brought up Hitler, he thought there'd be a better life for a lot of people if all the Jews, Catholics, etc. were killed. That must be OK, it was making a better life for others.




In most/all of these "well someone's life is better" situations, its usually at someone else's expense. Is it OK to improve your life at the expense of someone else?

[Tac-OneFun]

So

In most/all of these "well someone's life is better" situations, its usually at someone else's expense. Is it OK to improve your life at the expense of someone else?

booyah. And no, its not OK for them to have a better life at my expense. :nono:

[Pneumagger]

Physical Bariers are usually made of FAIL and LOSE. The physical barriers in place now cost many people thier lives as it is coming into this country. They need to morrally/mentally dejected of the oportunity of a better life through the exploitation of American Freedoms - that is the only way to stop the flux of illegal immigration to the US.

I can think of no better way to morally deject a minority race of immigrating mexicans than cloning Chris Rock and posting him along the Mexican border to verbally harass them.

[paintballfiend]

Does anyone here know or communicate with illegal immigrants?

[iambored]

hmm...More Chris Rock...that would be pretty sweet.
But guns will work fine in my book, too. (darn, no fun.)
Oh, and lets not put Hitler in this. Hitler was building his own world through elimination
No where has anyone said kill all of illegally immigrating races. That isn't, nor will it ever be needed.

[Lohman446]

Some would argue they'd have a better life if they killed George Bush. Does that make it ok?

Is it OK to steal from your company for a better life?

Do we allow child molesters to practice their... thing... because they think it is fulfilling and hence, makes their life better?

Since someone else brought up Hitler, he thought there'd be a better life for a lot of people if all the Jews, Catholics, etc. were killed. That must be OK, it was making a better life for others.




In most/all of these "well someone's life is better" situations, its usually at someone else's expense. Is it OK to improve your life at the expense of someone else?

Ethical hedonism, as has been discussed, so no.

And you are intentionally missing the point. Is it wrong that someone should have a far worse life, not because of hard work, or anything else, simply because they were born 15 miles south?

I agree there is a problem. I disagree with the egocentric viewpoint some people have of it.

[Lohman446]

To the house analogy.

Lets say we are on a deserted island. You build some great house - a mansion with every amenety a person could want for. You consume about 90% of the islands reasources to do it and maintain it. The resources you waste could double for my meal. I come into the house, rest in the AC, do productive work around the house, hey, I even helped you build it.

Is it right for you to deny me entrance to it? Especially if I say I want to build onto it, and make it better for both of us to share?

[robnix]

Does anyone here know or communicate with illegal immigrants?

I spent 10 years working in restaurants, I've been involved in the construction industry, now I work for a company that does fish processing. The first house I bought was in an area of Seattle where Caucasians were a very small minority, many store signs not in english, and certain stores almost required the use of the native tongue. So I guess you could say I've known a few, at least the few that would admit it. Some were good people that were simply trying to earn a living, some weren't. Some tried joining in on the American dream, some didn't.

Everyone arguing this should take a very close look at what happened in West Germany with their gastarbeiter programs and the Turkish. That's where I think we're headed with the proposals we have in front of us today.

http://www.catalystmagazine.org/Default.aspx.LocID-0hgnew0dt.RefLocID-0hg01b001006009.Lang-EN.htm
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,460185,00.html

And some excellent comment from Otto Schily.

http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/5280.html

[Pneumagger]

Is it right for you to deny me entrance to it? Especially if I say I want to build onto it, and make it better for both of us to share?

Legally, yes. If you own the house and property you should be free to excercise the rules you set forth under it's roof. Otherwise there is no incentive to better yourself in the world to attain positions of ownership.

At your job, if you knew you couldn't be fired and would always have that weekly paycheck coming would you work hard or just sit around and play solitaire on the computer until payday. Hmmm, tough choice.

The fact remains, the citizen of the US "own" the land, and if they don't want squatters they can do what they please. I realize the humane thing to do is share, and the US does that openly. Go through natraulization, show you want to be a constuctive part of the society within the bounds of the law, and come enjoy the freedom america grants you.

Not trying to flame Lohman, but go break into a nearby vacant apartment or house and start restoring it. When the owner comes along to kick you out and arrests you, see what happens when you try to explain you were "working" on it and all. :rofl:

/please note: I do not advocate shooting them - but I find the protests against stricter border control and deportating more illegal aliens absolutly sickening.

[Lohman446]

Deserted island and such... strength = right.

I was really just trying to put it in terms. I agree that protests to be sickening, and there to be an issue, but there is some concept of understanding why one would try it.

[teufelhunden]

I think most people understand why there is a mass emigration to the US from areas south, both legally and illegally, but that doesn't change the nitty gritty. It'd be great if we could build 4br/2.5 baths for everybody everywhere, but just like a Fortune 500 corporation or a high net worth individual, we got here by working hard and not wasting stuff [well, yeah.]. And many of those entities/people donate some of their proceeds to charitable organizations, but that's their choice. America as a whole is not being given a choice here. I'm sure plenty of people would like to make everything peachy and happy everywhere in the world but how many are willing to give up what they have for "equality." I doubt very few.

Lohman, your argument is sounding more and more like the tenets of socialism; I truly hope that's not an idea that's growing rapidly against those like yourself whom I'd generally consider to be moderate [especially given your weapons and such ;)]. A dangerous path to crawl down.

It's no secret that we're the richest in the world and it's not because of socialism. Look at the French. Generally a socialist country, very liberal, 35h workweek. Economically suffering. Hard. And as a result, they just elected a hardline conservative and the party is poised to win an absolute majority in their parliament. It's been shown time and again, through various means [generally the failure of other options] that capitalism is the system that's the best all around. Hell, even our poor are fat and watching the Sopranos series finale.

Sooooooo, I think I may've gotten... off point. But, regardless, giving unto another [country's citizens] is not the solution to the problem, which is government corruption and lagging technology causing poverty in much of south and central America. There's a hell of a better solution than giving them free passes to America [must be 48" to ride]. This global economy requires countries to keep up both for their own survival and for the survival of other countries. I'd much rather see the money be spent on education and training for those south of here than giving them free food, drugs, and a government subsidized apartment.

[paintballfiend]

Illegal immigrants would make great citizerns since they already live in fear of our government.

[Tac-OneFun]

To the house analogy.

Lets say we are on a deserted island. You build some great house - a mansion with every amenety a person could want for. You consume about 90% of the islands reasources to do it and maintain it. The resources you waste could double for my meal. I come into the house, rest in the AC, do productive work around the house, hey, I even helped you build it.

Is it right for you to deny me entrance to it? Especially if I say I want to build onto it, and make it better for both of us to share?

definitely NOT one of your 6 useful posts

[Papa_Smurf]

To the house analogy.

Lets say we are on a deserted island. You build some great house - a mansion with every amenety a person could want for. You consume about 90% of the islands reasources to do it and maintain it. The resources you waste could double for my meal. I come into the house, rest in the AC, do productive work around the house, hey, I even helped you build it.

Is it right for you to deny me entrance to it? Especially if I say I want to build onto it, and make it better for both of us to share?


who paid to have it built initially?
me.
get your punk a** out my house.

[paintballfiend]

who paid to have it built initially?
me.
get your punk a** out my house.

Slaves did actually. :ninja:

[AmyM]

I like the idea of people being able to cross our border illegally. Those people need jobs, good jobs that they don't have in Mexico. Hmm... why don't they have good jobs, and a better life in Mexico? Oh, who cares... let's give them food-stamps when they are hungry. Let's share our wealth, and provide free medical care for them. If I hear that senator say "Let's share" something one more time...

Really, can some of them just admit they are socialists. I know a lot of people in this country would vote for them, and they would feel better about who they are if they would just go ahead, and admit it...

Anyway, let's not be mean to the people crossing the border to make a better life for their family. Come on, we know that is all they want. We should let 'em all across. Remember, none of those passing illegally over our borders could possibly be OTM terrorists....

That's why we don't need border security, border protection, border fences, border guards, or national sovereignty. VOTE DEMOCRAT TODAY! Don't believe the hype about national security. It's all a bunch of nonsense. No one wants to hurt America.

Oh, and don't forget to shaft those LEGAL IMMIGRANTS who respected our laws, by giving millions of criminals citizenship... it's the new American way! Can you believe they were actually dumb enough to go through that lengthy process of obtaining U.S. citizenship legally?

:nono: DISCLAIMER: You must acknowledge that you understand that the information here sometimes comes from completely unreliable sources. That they, more than likely, have modified the details from the truth before they gave it to me. In the interest of timeliness, I never check or verify any piece of information given to me. It is my policy not to reveal my sources, unless I feel like it can be used to indict a Republican in a totally frivolous case involving the revealing of the identity(s) of super, ultra, top secret, not really under-cover CIA desk jockeys. However, if I write something that isn't true and you tell me about it, I'll correct the record as soon as feasible for me, on page 37, in super-ultra-fine print. Beyond that, I accept no liability for anything you have read. I ask our fellow AO'ers to bear in mind that AmyM is meant to be a source of, good spirited, totally biased information, unlike some people who try to appear to be unbiased. It is never my intention to insult, demean, or hurt the feelings of fellow AO'ers. If this inadvertently happens, I apologize in advance and blame George Bush for allowing this to happen. Also, please remember to love all of our fellow, less than conservative, AO'ers, and remember it's ok to poke a lil' fun.
:cheers:

Anyone ever play that game Civilization? Did you ever win without creating military units to protect the cities? I tried, and these "fantastic" people kept coming over. They would kill my people, steal my cities, my technology, my resources, and crush my way of life.

[trevorjk]

Anyone ever play that game Civilization? Did you ever win without creating military units to protect the cities? I tried, and these "fantastic" people kept coming over. They would kill my people, steal my cities, my technology, my resources, and crush my way of life.


well Amy, i have won that way before :)

infact i got all the technology and resources and traded it to my brother for protection :) needless to say, we kicked arse :p

[iambored]

Why is it that everyone says "well they're working for us." If they are working for us for their ability to remain here, then maybe someone should explain why that matters if they feed off of our welfare system without putting in. Oh, and lets not forget that anyone with enough perseverance can become an American citizen. So why should I make it easy on them and let them stay illegally.
They broke the rules, not me or you, they did. Our actions are no where near as unethical as someone who knows the rules and breaks them anyway because they are lazy, etc.

[Jonneh]

:words:

Anyone ever play that game Civilization? Did you ever win without creating military units to protect the cities? I tried, and these "fantastic" people kept coming over. They would kill my people, steal my cities, my technology, my resources, and crush my way of life.Cultural victories are always the sweetest victories.

[Raven001]

Legally, yes. If you own the house and property you should be free to excercise the rules you set forth under it's roof. Otherwise there is no incentive to better yourself in the world to attain positions of ownership.

Just remember that this house you now own was originally built and owned by someone else and that your pox infested ancestors stole it and killed to take it from them.

But seriously, I think the whole immigration debate now going on down there is just a ruse to distract the american puplic. The war is not going the way the Neo's thought it would and it is peeving off their conservitive supporters. America is continually being made in and owned by China. That's just gotta to suck an overinflated ego dry. You need somthing to rally the people around and nothing works quite like looking down the end of your nose at someone not quite as white as you. I mean frig, they don't even speak hinglish..

peace ;)

[Lohman446]

Just remember that this house you now own was originally built and owned by someone else and that your pox infested ancestors stole it and killed to take it from them.

But seriously, I think the whole immigration debate now going on down there is just a ruse to distract the american puplic. The war is not going the way the Neo's thought it would and it is peeving off their conservitive supporters. America is continually being made in and owned by China. That's just gotta to suck an overinflated ego dry. You need somthing to rally the people around and nothing works quite like looking down the end of your nose at someone not quite as white as you. I mean frig, they don't even speak hinglish..

peace ;)


I think you're "negative" view of Americans in general is alarming, and you should not be speaking about "looking down your nose" to anyone.

[Raven001]

I think your taking it a little to serious (my comments). Still, sometimes it is useful to see yourself as others see you. :)

[Lohman446]

I think your taking it a little to serious (my comments). Still, sometimes it is useful to see yourself as others see you. :)

Maybe there is a reason we keep a big army :D

[warpig13]

Its a blessing to live in Texas, mere hours away from one of our borders that has a little problem with immigrants coming across.

The amount of corrupt is so severe along the border in most of these little towns it'd take a miracle to put a good dent on stopping immigration. Just the other day two high ranking border patrol officals were arrested here in San Anotnio SMUGGLING immigrants.

I agrre wholehearted that it is wrong and when caught they should be sent straight back home, but keeping them out.....I dont see that happening.

Unless we train zombies and use El Diablo witchcraft to scare them away...

[Raven001]

Yes Lohman you do have a big army. Part poor white trash, part poor blacks and part hispanic. All chasing the american dream to make lots of money.


Guardsmen on border accused of running smuggling ring
By ALICIA A. CALDWELL
The Associated Press
LAREDO, Texas -- Three National Guardsmen assigned to the Texas-Mexico border were accused of running an immigrant smuggling ring after 24 immigrants were found inside a van that one of them was driving, a U.S. attorney said Monday.

The three, arrested late Thursday and Friday, were arraigned Monday on a federal charge of conspiring to transport illegal immigrants.

Pfc. Jose Rodrigo Torres, 26, and Sgt. Julio Cesar Pacheco, 25, both of Laredo, and Sgt. Clarence Hodge Jr., 36, of Fort Worth, were arrested near Laredo.

A Border Patrol agent found 24 illegal immigrants inside a van Torres was driving along Interstate 35 near Cotulla, Texas, about 68 miles north of the border, prosecutors said. Torres was in uniform at the time of his arrest Thursday.

The van was leased by the National Guard, according to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.

Prosecutors accused Hodge of helping Torres pass through a Border Patrol checkpoint on the highway by making it look like the two were conducting Guard business.

Pacheco was accused of recruiting soldiers to transport the migrants for $1,000 to $3,500 a trip. He and Hodge were arrested Friday.

[Lohman446]

Keep talking, the more ethnocentric and arrogant you sound the more your arguments falter. Especially when those arguments are against American arrogance in the first place.

Your concept of what you think the American military is comprised of, and what America is comprised of, is franky wrong. I know many soldiers, and well the army has its issue it is made up of dedicated and honorable men and women, at least in large part.


Yes Lohman you do have a big army. Part poor white trash, part poor blacks and part hispanic. All chasing the american dream to make lots of money.


Guardsmen on border accused of running smuggling ring
By ALICIA A. CALDWELL
The Associated Press
LAREDO, Texas -- Three National Guardsmen assigned to the Texas-Mexico border were accused of running an immigrant smuggling ring after 24 immigrants were found inside a van that one of them was driving, a U.S. attorney said Monday.

The three, arrested late Thursday and Friday, were arraigned Monday on a federal charge of conspiring to transport illegal immigrants.

Pfc. Jose Rodrigo Torres, 26, and Sgt. Julio Cesar Pacheco, 25, both of Laredo, and Sgt. Clarence Hodge Jr., 36, of Fort Worth, were arrested near Laredo.

A Border Patrol agent found 24 illegal immigrants inside a van Torres was driving along Interstate 35 near Cotulla, Texas, about 68 miles north of the border, prosecutors said. Torres was in uniform at the time of his arrest Thursday.

The van was leased by the National Guard, according to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.

Prosecutors accused Hodge of helping Torres pass through a Border Patrol checkpoint on the highway by making it look like the two were conducting Guard business.

Pacheco was accused of recruiting soldiers to transport the migrants for $1,000 to $3,500 a trip. He and Hodge were arrested Friday.

[Raven001]

Keep talking, the more ethnocentric and arrogant you sound the more your arguments falter. Especially when those arguments are against American arrogance in the first place.

Your concept of what you think the American military is comprised of, and what America is comprised of, is franky wrong. I know many soldiers, and well the army has its issue it is made up of dedicated and honorable men and women, at least in large part.

I don't know you well enough but apparently my brand of humour is not appreciated by you. Rather than turn this into a flame, I'll just end it like the original point that started this.

Peace :)

[AmyM]

Why argue/listen to arguments on U.S. security from a canadian? Why dignify the remarks with a response?

Yeah, let's call iran, syria, north korea, china, and everyone else outside of our country. I'm sure they could give us a ton of insight on how to make the U.S.A. a
"better place". :rolleyes:

Maybe we could ask them what they think of us too. We could then go over there and give all the dictators, terrorists, and the french a big hug, I'm sure that would solve all our problems. Hey Osama let's have tea!

:rofl:

[Raven001]

Why argue/listen to arguments on U.S. security from a canadian? Why dignify the remarks with a response?

Yeah, let's call iran, syria, north korea, china, and everyone else outside of our country. I'm sure they could give us a ton of insight on how to make the U.S.A. a
"better place". :rolleyes:

Maybe we could ask them what they think of us too. We could then go over there and give all the dictators, terrorists, and the french a big hug, I'm sure that would solve all our problems. Hey Osama let's have tea!

:rofl:

Now thats my brand of humour :dance: