hAir trigger

[ProblemKinder]

is there a difference between the hAir trigger and a pneumag that say, pneumagger would build?

[going_home]

calling nicad......
:cool:

[Rudz]

diy with off the shelf parts compared to proffesional manufacturing

[latches109]

is there a difference between the hAir trigger and a pneumag that say, pneumagger would build?

theoretically no.

actual performance wise... :confused: absolutely

[Empyreal Rogue]

diy with off the shelf parts compared to proffesional manufacturing

While I'm sure you're right, from my personal experience with his work it is quite top notch. I'm not a fan of the external reg. look so I asked him if he could install the entire setup into my Chimera frame, and he did it. And the only evidence that it has pneumatics is the microline that comes out of the bottom of the frame and plugs into a T-fitting.

[Rudz]

While I'm sure you're right, from my personal experience with his work it is quite top notch. I'm not a fan of the external reg. look so I asked him if he could install the entire setup into my Chimera frame, and he did it. And the only evidence that it has pneumatics is the microline that comes out of the bottom of the frame and plugs into a T-fitting.


i never said pnuemagger wasnt good, hes isnt..hes awesome but hes using off the shelf parts, that werent meant to be used for the applications they are, the HAIR uses custom machined parts specifically for the purpose.

[Empyreal Rogue]

i never said pnuemagger wasnt good, hes isnt..hes awesome but hes using off the shelf parts, that werent meant to be used for the applications they are, the HAIR uses custom machined parts specifically for the purpose.

No harm, no foul. :cool: Was meant as a testimonial for the OP mainly.

[RRfireblade]

The big difference is going to be in the switching mechanism whereas the DYI are dealing with slightly modded stock parts , the purpose built counter parts far exceed thier perfomance.

That is what makes/made the hAir and Pneumag (st least speaking of mine for sure) shoot ,feel and perform nearly identical to an eletro in terms of not only a 'lighter' trigger but the snappyness of the trigger and the inabilty to short stroke regardless of how you pull the trigger.

[ProblemKinder]

awesome guys. i was just really curious as to the difference, thanks for clearin that up for me! hopefully we'll see the hAir trigger come out one of these days... :headbang:

[madcrisis]

can someone clear up for me what the hair trigger is?

[Coralis]

just another product that cant be introduce due to legal and financial constraints , but to answer your question it was a bolt on pnuematic trigger for the automag .

[rawbutter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK6VrMD1uwk

Yeah... from what I understand the hAir trigger frame is pretty much fully developed, but some patent issues are preventing DeadlyWind from selling them.

[ProblemKinder]

pro team has the patent. atleast, so they say. it's just another case of "your product infringes on my patent" "no it doesn't" 3 years later....still nothing. :mad:

[RRfireblade]

pro team has the patent. atleast, so they say. it's just another case of "your product infringes on my patent" "no it doesn't" 3 years later....still nothing. :mad:


Well let's see . . .

PTP has one , DW has one and apparently 68 Super has one too. 3 years later . . . and there's less of a market for it than ever. ;)

No one stopping anyone but demand. :cheers:

[ProblemKinder]

Well let's see . . .

PTP has one , DW has one and apparently 68 Super has one too. 3 years later . . . and there's less of a market for it than ever. ;)

No one stopping anyone but demand. :cheers:

apparently DW is trying to prove their hAir trigger doesn't infringe on PTP's patent. i hever knew about 68 super's patent. i would really like to see legal mumbo jumbo stop hindering our market.

[RRfireblade]

He's not trying to prove anything. There isn't anything going on there. Colin has claimed since day one he doesn't infringe. He's free to biuld and sell anytime he wants.

[RRfireblade]

In fact , I just recalled . . .

http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story042366.php

There . . . build yer own. :D

[txaggie08]

except for the possible legal ramification's if a court case was to appear. Even if he wins, the odds are that the legal cost would offset any profits garnered from there sale, and the potential losses of an unfavorable result are far higher........ but then you knew that I'm sure, my commentary was more for the inevitable "why doesn't he then?" argument.

[ProblemKinder]

12/29/2004

hAir update- As some of you have heard, our progress has been slowed by some legal hurdles. The problem we ran into is that Pro-Team Products was recently granted a patent on assisted trigger mechanisms for paintball markers. Pro-Team insists that we are infringing this patent, and although we disagree with them, we have tried to cooperate so we can get the product released. We've been advised that our remaining options are expensive ones, and since we have already overspent resources in the development of this product, we have decided to shelve it for now and focus on our other projects. Again, we apologize for keeping everyone waiting on this. We do hope to revive this in the future, either when we can again justify allocating resources, or once we form partnerships that enable us to do so.

[ProblemKinder]

In fact , I just recalled . . .

http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story042366.php

There . . . build yer own. :D

that's a great idea. i'll just quit my job and start mass producing pneu-frames with my dremmel. :rolleyes:

maybe some day when i get my drill press. but for now Home Depot just doesnt pay me enough for that. :mad: some day i'll have a real job tho. some day...

[Dark Side]

No one stopping anyone but demand. :cheers:

Hell, that's a load right there. 6 month's ago damn near everyone wanted a Pnuemag. It was the biggest thing since the Lvl 10 came out.

[Chronobreak]

Well let's see . . .

PTP has one , DW has one and apparently 68 Super has one too. 3 years later . . . and there's less of a market for it than ever. ;)

No one stopping anyone but demand. :cheers:


how can there be demand for a product that doesnt exist?
:confused:

i also recall a "pre order" or itnerest thread of sorts that dissapeared a while back :ninja:

[RRfireblade]

Hell, that's a load right there. 6 month's ago damn near everyone wanted a Pnuemag. It was the biggest thing since the Lvl 10 came out.


Well quite a few people could have stepped up and tryed to make them. PTP was out of the picture to to health issues that had crippled the company. DW disapeared on the subject , a number of others claimed to be offering drop in kits and various other applications. As far as I can tell , Pnumagger is the only one , basically , who has stepped up and done anything.


Let me tell you something about AO from someone who been around a little while . . . Start with "Everyone" - 75% when it comes to sign up - 50% of that when personal info is asked and then -50% of that when it comes time to pony up the cash. ;)

In the end , I think we figured the max Pneumags we'd expect to sell that late in the game was 150-200. 5 years ago or more ? Probably would have been a whole different situation.

Like I said , DW has the full go as far as I know to start putting them out. He claimed he might offer some kind of 'kit' a couple years ago. You'd have to ask him if they are still interested and why or why not. I can't speak for them.

As for PTP , like I said , they are not even yet back on thier feet from severe family illness that just about cost them everything they own , home and otherwise. Right now , they will not expend anything that doesn't promise full return + .

Not as many as you think are going to spend 3-400 on a grip frame.

[RRfireblade]

how can there be demand for a product that doesnt exist?
:confused:

i also recall a "pre order" or itnerest thread of sorts that dissapeared a while back :ninja:

You were told why that was.

[Dark Side]

Well quite a few people could have stepped up and tryed to make them. PTP was out of the picture to to health issues that had crippled the company. DW disapeared on the subject , a number of others claimed to be offering drop in kits and various other applications. As far as I can tell , Pnumagger is the only one , basically , who has stepped up and done anything.

Nope, somebody else here is building a drop in kit. And another was putting togeather parts kits. And then there was a website. And then there is a dealer with a frame...



Let me tell you something about AO from someone who been around a little while . . . Start with "Everyone" - 75% when it comes to sign up - 50% of that when personal info is asked and then -50% of that when it comes time to pony up the cash. ;)

In the end , I think we figured the max Pneumags we'd expect to sell that late in the game was 150-200. 5 years ago or more ? Probably would have been a whole different situation.


So why, when DW was so close to putting the Hair out, did PTP jump all over him for infringing upon their patent if they were not going to be making any type of real profit?



Like I said , DW has the full go as far as I know to start putting them out. He claimed he might offer some kind of 'kit' a couple years ago. You'd have to ask him if they are still interested and why or why not. I can't speak for them.


Did DW get that in writing from PTP with a promise of no legal action or are you trying to derail the issue again?



As for PTP , like I said , they are not even yet back on thier feet from severe family illness that just about cost them everything they own , home and otherwise. Right now , they will not expend anything that doesn't promise full return + .

Explains why they stopped making Mag bodies then. But then not every other thing...



Not as many as you think are going to spend 3-400 on a grip frame.

You haven't seen Logics frame then have you?

[RRfireblade]

Nope, somebody else here is building a drop in kit. And another was putting togeather parts kits. And then there was a website. And then there is a dealer with a frame...

So what are you complaining about ? Go buy one. According you 'Everyone' should have one by now. :)



So why, when DW was so close to putting the Hair out, did PTP jump all over him for infringing upon their patent if they were not going to be making any type of real profit?

There was no jumpinh all over , you don't know what you are talkiing about. There are a letter of concern sent. DW claimed no infringement , had an app on file and now a full patent for his mechanism . . . case closed.





Did DW get that in writing from PTP with a promise of no legal action or are you trying to derail the issue again?

Not derailing anything , he doesn't need a letter to sell anything. He needs a C&D to even have a concern or a Court finding to be forced to stop. DW has a PATENT in hand for his frame mechanism. There's nothing more to discuss there.



Explains why they stopped making Mag bodies then. But then not every other thing...

Dude you are WAY out of the loop. PTP hasn't made a Mag body on over 6 years. In the last 2+ years , they haven't made a single paintball product.



You haven't seen Logics frame then have you?

First off , I didn't say NO ONE , I said not as many as you might think. And yeah , Ryan has under a hundred preorders last I looked. On a 300 retail , you'd be luck to net a grand profit on the whole run, weeks or months worth of effort at least. Hardly a big incentive. I make around a grand a week on my 'day' job alone. In the world of paintball and production . . . anything , if you don't have demand to sell at least 1000 units. you have nothing.





You need to stop arguing about what you have no idea of. ;)

[Chronobreak]

You were told why that was.


sure, but to say there is no interest, or demand is pure bull and you know it.

also saying the people that express'd interest are unwilling to pay is pretty insulting if you ask me.

RF often said the same thing about people not putting up $, and he miraculaously got enough people together for an order of slugs.

so whats gonna be said next? an all mech is pointless these days and wont sell in the world of fast flashy things?, then make it fully e-pneumatic like a mag SHOULD have been and take advantage of the guns full potential.

:rolleyes:

lets go dig the dead horse up so we can kick it again :sleeping:

--edit, must be nice to jay as hes holding my mag hostage :argh:

[RRfireblade]

I wasn't the one who dig it up. ;)

I said , mostly half heartedly BTW , that there wasn't any 'real' demand for it. There still isn't , wasn't a ton 3 years ago , much less last year and even less now. There is some of course but not much. How many DYI do you even really see ? A dozen ? If that ? Your talking about $30-$40 in parts and have your own. Why aren't we seeing hundreds of those turning up all over ? Not to mention most of the few you do see end up in the B/S/T inside a month.

Look . . . I didn't realize each and every word was going to go under the microscope especially over an issue that is no longer an issue.

If someone wants to mass market one , go thru the right channels like everyone else in the entire business and paintbll world and go ahead and do it. If "Everyone" wants one like some people claim , any minimal licensing costs are definately not going to stop anyone. Hundereds of thousands of Electros are sold every year under agreement of some kind , sounds like you couldn't lose. ;)

[RRfireblade]

--edit, must be nice to jay as hes holding my mag hostage :argh:

Eh , I'd never hold it over this kind of wasted arguing. :D

[Dark Side]

ok for arguments sake. Why go and get a patent for a product that has very little market value?

Last time I checked the patent site, getting one was a chunk of change. So to gat a patent on something you won't sell is idiotic.

Yes it did work for the electro. That's why a number of small companies went out of business.

A letter of concern is a very tactful way of saying back off or legal action will insue.


EDIT: You might want to tell PTP they made way too much 2+ years ago to still be selling off the old stock.

[RRfireblade]

PTPs Patent was filed over 7 years ago. Things were alot different then. DW had intentions of a DW/AGD partnership on hAir , at the time ( a few years ago) that was a much different scenerio then it would be now , going alone.

Look , I promise you have no idea how much I pushed for a Pneumatic mag. The first prototypes I did , I did AGAINST direct instruction on my own just to get it going. I was all for a Mag version right from the get go , we're talking WAY back before all the legal stuff came up. If I had the resources , I would still consider doing it now even tho the profit potential is not great. I have the means to gain legal backing but there would be alot at stake regardless. I realise none of you have seen a production version of the frame but you'll have to take my word for it when I tell you that mass production of some of those parts are NOT going to be easy. That was the first part of the equasion that held PTP up. I could mass produce an entire mechanical mag for less than the Pneu frame alone. It's a big deal I promise you. Even Tom had stated of the hAir that he wasn't even sure if they could biuld it in it's current form , just way to complex and way to many adjustments. Just for example , when we went to Humphrey to biuld our switching , they wanted an order 100,000 units. That's quite a few. ;) I'd realy have to figure out how to overcome that issue before anything else. Even a few hundred would take my months to turn out by hand.

You just have to trust me that it's not that easy to just start selling a frame that meets my standards for this product.

[RRfireblade]

And yes , PTP has probably $30K+ in that patent. That was why they set a deal with K2 at the time who claimed hudreds of thousends of units. That patent also covers other fields of invention where profit could be made outside of Paintball.

As a 'typical' patent process , a simple grant could be had for a few thousand.

[ScatterPlot]

I for one would like to machine my own- some specs would be kewl and then I wouldn't have to design my own :D

[Thordic]

As one of the few people who were lucky enough to use the hAir in a game (I was able to use it at IAO a few years ago for a few games), it is an amazing product.

It honestly beats almost all the electros I've shot. The trigger feels amazing. You've never seen a gun that much fun to shoot.

I think it could potentially take off if it ever made it past whatever hurdles are holding it back right now.

It really is a shame this invention can't make it to production. I've never shot PTP's version, but if its like Colin's, it'd be amazing as well.

[RRfireblade]

Right now , as I've said , the biggest issue I have is mass production of a couple of key components. The reason it works so well is the switching in them. It's difficult and costly. We've gone thru China and the quality was far less than ideal.

As for function , yeah . . . I gotten into near fist fights with kids at local fields who don't believe they are Mechs. It's almost funny.

The only other problem with Mass market today is not only overall cost but features IE firing modes. Most kids won't last 5 secs with a true Semi only gun. Most have never seen a 'True' indefiable true semi gun. Even the semis most think are are debatable. There's no debating the Pneumag , it's semi. :)

The younger crowd today just doesn't want to have to work that hard. :(

[Thordic]

I remember at IAO, myself and Nelson both used the hAir in games. It was so much fun we didn't stop shooting the entire game. Nelson was shooting bunkers with no one in them just because he didn't want to stop shooting the gun.

People have seen the videos but I think once a few of these actually got out to fields, and people got a chance to shoot them, demand would increase exponentially.

I can't even express how dissapointed I was that these never came out. I am more or less out of paintball at the moment, I havn't played in years, but I would still run out to buy one of these just to have it. They are that good.

[ProblemKinder]

Not derailing anything , he doesn't need a letter to sell anything. He needs a C&D to even have a concern or a Court finding to be forced to stop. DW has a PATENT in hand for his frame mechanism. There's nothing more to discuss there.

so are you suggesting he just ignore this letter of concern? if I was DW i wouldn't want to get into a legal battle with PTP.

what would be cool, is if DW updated their news page and told us exactly what is going on. almost 3 years ago they mention "legal hurdles" involving PTP and then nothing.

the problem is, 30-40 dollars for the parts to build a pneumag isnt expensive, it's the money i would be spending replacing my frame if I screw up. that's why we don't have thousands of pneumags floating around, people are afraid to build them. not to mention you need a drill press.

what would also be cool is if DW answered emails....just a side-rant i would like to know if they'll mill my slug. has anyone received an email from DW lately? am i just getting ignored or is something going on?

i don't think going into business making pneuframes would be all that risky. since alot of people would be willing to send their own frames in to have the work done on it's not like somebody has to stock pile a bunch of frames and worry about whether or not they'll sell. stock up on a bunch of the 30 dollar kits and wait for the frames to come in. heck, if i had a drill press and the skill i would offer the service. you won't make a grand living off of it but you could make some money, and help the industry grow just a little bit. who knows, pneumags, or atleast pneu-'enter gun here' might catch on in the industry. maybe not right away but who knows...people thought HPA tanks were stupid when they were first introduced.

EDIT: the thing is, fireblade, that you and a few others seem to just, come upon information that most of us don't. and when DW comes out with this insane video of this totally awesome mech gun and gets us all hyped up about it, then says "we're experiencing legal hurdles", then nothing for 3 years, the vast majority of us are stuck in the fog. confused and angry. you keep saying "you don't know what your talking about" of course we don't. how could we? all us paintball-peeons have to go by is one vague news post that was posted 3 years ago. try to be patient with us, the hAir trigger is pretty much AMAZING you have to understand how excited, confused and disappointed we all are.

[RRfireblade]

so are you suggesting he just ignore this letter of concern? if I was DW i wouldn't want to get into a legal battle with PTP.

what would be cool, is if DW updated their news page and told us exactly what is going on. almost 3 years ago they mention "legal hurdles" involving PTP and then nothing.

the problem is, 30-40 dollars for the parts to build a pneumag isnt expensive, it's the money i would be spending replacing my frame if I screw up. that's why we don't have thousands of pneumags floating around, people are afraid to build them. not to mention you need a drill press.

what would also be cool is if DW answered emails....just a side-rant i would like to know if they'll mill my slug. has anyone received an email from DW lately? am i just getting ignored or is something going on?

i don't think going into business making pneuframes would be all that risky. since alot of people would be willing to send their own frames in to have the work done on it's not like somebody has to stock pile a bunch of frames and worry about whether or not they'll sell. stock up on a bunch of the 30 dollar kits and wait for the frames to come in. heck, if i had a drill press and the skill i would offer the service. you won't make a grand living off of it but you could make some money, and help the industry grow just a little bit. who knows, pneumags, or atleast pneu-'enter gun here' might catch on in the industry. maybe not right away but who knows...people thought HPA tanks were stupid when they were first introduced.

EDIT: the thing is, fireblade, that you and a few others seem to just, come upon information that most of us don't. and when DW comes out with this insane video of this totally awesome mech gun and gets us all hyped up about it, then says "we're experiencing legal hurdles", then nothing for 3 years, the vast majority of us are stuck in the fog. confused and angry. you keep saying "you don't know what your talking about" of course we don't. how could we? all us paintball-peeons have to go by is one vague news post that was posted 3 years ago. try to be patient with us, the hAir trigger is pretty much AMAZING you have to understand how excited, confused and disappointed we all are.

I know , I know.

Let's see to clear this up then for you. "Some" of us are in the business and directly connected to the issue at hand. That's where some of the info comes from. In case your not aware , I was the one who developed the Patented version of the pneumag for PTP many years ago. I also did a Patented version of an Autococker and a Blowback version for WGP and BE respectfully. The legal issues you've quoted of DW are from was back before DW even had thier Patent granted . . . I'm not even sure if he had his application in yet although he very well might have. Alot has happend since then , and few 'new' statements made. Last I recall was DW hinting at producing the frame themselves with the new patent and without the help of AGD and another hint at retailing a full drop in kit of some sort. As you said , I haven't heard anything other from them on the subject so as of late , I have no idea why they haven't done anything or what they might do still.

As for PTP , the owner is still just getting over life threatening illness that had him in the hospital for a long time and more than once , we were close to losing him. That completely stopped all PTP development and forced them to conserve all finances to keep from losing everything they have. They are a small , few employee family business and I'm not even sure what it will take for them to get back on thier feet.

Basically that's where the issue stands right now. There are people full in thier rights to biuld frames or markers but are not going to for various reasons. Read my previous posts for info as to the costs and hurdles involved in the production of a 'Factory' Pneumag and then realize that a hundred or 2 units are not near enough to make it a viable product. AS for the rest of the 'market' , your talking about sub $200 ION shooters , Toury mode shooting wannabes making up the big majority and then the rest made up of scenerio'ers , old guys and super newb renters. There's not alot of room in there IMO , for a $5-$600 mechanical semi only marker. There just isn't or Mags and AGD would not be in the state they currently are in. Time and low costs have past them by not to mention Big business producers smothering the small guy when it comes to costs,distribution and marketing. It's an up hill battle if you have even an Amazing hot new product never the less and niche based underdog from the get go.

That's just the way it is right now and it's going to be tough to get some small company to tie up 10 or 20 grand minimum to take that kind of risk. If I ever did myself , I'd need to gaurantee probably 500 units being just a one man operation right now. I just don't see that many selling any time soon.

That's pretty much the dealio. :)

[Chronobreak]

so...we start a march to the pre order thread and get 500? then youll do it? :cool:


and from what you say it sounds like the production parts would be used in all versions, not just the mag? so how does all responsibility fall on us? i know of alot of people that would love an option like this for a tippy or spyder.
it seems other companies have shown interest, why arent they making one? i heard a worrgame product used this system...but have never seen one in person or for sale.

if people keep stalling saying, there is no market it may just be true after a while, and most of us have seen how fast the direction of the industry/players can change.

and to whoever asked, the last i hear from DW was the project was on the backburner for the long haul and was not a high priority

[Thordic]

Pre-order threads are worthless unless you had people who would pre-pay. Everyone says yes in pre-order threads, and then when it comes time to put their money down, they all dissapear.

If I had a dealer saying they could give me a pneumatic frame that can match Colin's performance, I'd send them the cash right now. Unfortunately, I'm in the vast minority.

[RRfireblade]

so...we start a march to the pre order thread and get 500? then youll do it? :cool:

You get prepaid preorders for 300 and I'll make it happen.


and from what you say it sounds like the production parts would be used in all versions, not just the mag? so how does all responsibility fall on us? i know of alot of people that would love an option like this for a tippy or spyder.

Cause I can only get legal backing to get a Mag version going. K2 still has license rights and plans for the WGP and the Blowback.

it seems other companies have shown interest, why arent they making one?

Cost vs Retail x Demand . . . as has been said.

i heard a worrgame product used this system...but have never seen one in person or for sale.

It's problematic since to overcome the "Cost vs Retail x Demand" equasion , they are trying to get parts made in China. In a nut shell , those parts suck. I've spent the last half a year (here and there) trying to get those parts to work. Just won't happen with that poor a quality.

if people keep stalling saying, there is no market it may just be true after a while, and most of us have seen how fast the direction of the industry/players can change.

It's been said cause it's true. To you , 2-300 units is demand. To everyone else in the business , it's not.

and to whoever asked, the last i hear from DW was the project was on the backburner for the long haul and was not a high priority

Yet another source who doesn't feel the endevour is worth it. ;)


:cheers:

[ProblemKinder]

well, if the difference between a hAir trigger, and say, pneumagger's pneumag is just "better parts" I would settle for whatever parts pneumagger is using. i understand the hurdle you mentioned about having to order 100,000 units of some part, and obviously knowing you'll never sell 100,000 hAir triggers, but why does it HAVE to be that particular unit? I'd be happy if someone took my Y-frame, and one of those 30 dollar kits in the B/S/T forum and make me a nice pneumag. i would probably pay 100 bucks for someone to turn a frame I already own into a pneumag that worked like magic. maybe that's a bit pricey maybe not.

i'm sure colin's hAir trigger is the best out there, but under the circumstances i'd be willing to have a professional job done, with slightly less than professional parts.

[Chronobreak]

well looking at the 2008 automag thread it seems most of the people want some sort of pneumatic or e-pneumatic mag.

i guess that projects gonna be dead before it even started :(

:walk away from thread slowly:

[RRfireblade]

well, if the difference between a hAir trigger, and say, pneumagger's pneumag is just "better parts" I would settle for whatever parts pneumagger is using. i understand the hurdle you mentioned about having to order 100,000 units of some part, and obviously knowing you'll never sell 100,000 hAir triggers, but why does it HAVE to be that particular unit? I'd be happy if someone took my Y-frame, and one of those 30 dollar kits in the B/S/T forum and make me a nice pneumag. i would probably pay 100 bucks for someone to turn a frame I already own into a pneumag that worked like magic. maybe that's a bit pricey maybe not.

i'm sure colin's hAir trigger is the best out there, but under the circumstances i'd be willing to have a professional job done, with slightly less than professional parts.


Cause function between the two is really night and day. It's pretty much like an Electro versus a lighter ULT trigger setup. You still have chuff and shortstroke issues and still have to 'learn' the trigger for best performance.


If I did a small run of Pneus it would have to be the handmade units I ended up with in the prototypes. Man . . . a few hundred of those would be insane to build by hand tho. :(

[ProblemKinder]

Cause function between the two is really night and day. It's pretty much like an Electro versus a lighter ULT trigger setup. You still have chuff and shortstroke issues and still have to 'learn' the trigger for best performance.


If I did a small run of Pneus it would have to be the handmade units I ended up with in the prototypes. Man . . . a few hundred of those would be insane to build by hand tho. :(

true. how bout just one? :D

[RRfireblade]

well looking at the 2008 automag thread it seems most of the people want some sort of pneumatic or e-pneumatic mag.

i guess that projects gonna be dead before it even started :(

:walk away from thread slowly:


Well I'm not leaning towards that for that marker regardless. It's going to have to be electro to validate neccessary pricing and it'll have to have some kind of ramp to sell outside of the AO community.

[ProblemKinder]

its gonna be electro? :(

guess i don't get a '08 mag :cry:

[Coralis]

A bullpup design for all the mill sim people that are out there with all the rail that the Tac One has , perhaps the Tac two.