Is increased ROF good or bad for the sport?

[Aslan]

I know this topic has been done before...and possibly to death...but bare with me while I revisit it from hopefully a different angle.

I went to the field today, a new field I haven't played before. A few woodsball kids showed up but mostly speedball players...and good ones, sponsored tourney level players with $600-$1500 markers. We ended up playing speedball and hyperball since the number of woodsball players was relatively small.

What happened that made me think about this was that we had some new kids playing. They were absolutely intimidated on the field by the firepower that was out there. It made me think, is increased ROF discouraging younger, new players from getting involved?

The opposite arguement is that there are alot of teenage players attracted to the sport by the increased ROF and the fact that such style of play is now on television and there are high school teams, etc...

My trouble in thinking about this is that I really think that paintball has taken big steps in recent years in part due to speedball and higher ROF markers. In the last 10 years, the sport has gone from something on par with lazer tag to an ESPN 2 covered sport. I don't think that can be dismissed.

However...after seeing what I saw today, it made me wonder. I see kids go to the field...new to paintball...and they are trying to return fire with a VL Orion or a rental gun and they are getting pounded by shockers, Minis, Egos, PMs, and DMs. I know that one of the reasons was because they just weren't that good at paintball...but even I had trouble against the increased ROF and I've been playing for years. The opposition moved and communicated well...but they couldn't move the way they did without their ROF. They could pin down opponents by just laying fire onto a location and walking towards it.

I don't know, I admit there is nothing that can be done about the trend towards higher ROF...but after today it made me wonder if the higher ROF isn't pushing the younger generation and new players away. It might be more interesting for the teens already involved, but so far I'ev seen it as a negative with the younger kids that would fuel the future of the sport.

Any thoughts?

[mr doo doo]

people who rip lasers at me intimidate me :shooting: :shooting:

i barely shoot 10 bps, while they keep me underfire with 25 bps, WHAT CAN I DO!?!?

[MedicDVG]

Precisely why I play pump and also mostly woods with a good group. I enjoy reffing speedball more then I like playing it.

[kenndogg]

I say no being that one can easily pick an e-spyder, etippmann or ion for cheap.
I see this all the time at my field. Newer players using these cheap e-markers are actually holding their own. Their only weakness is playing at a highly competitve level which comes with experience.

[Coralis]

Personally i think there should should be some standard for rec ball that includes a bps limit, then perhaps makers of electronic markers could include a rec ball mode that wont exceed that limit, ( for example lets just say 10 bps ramped where ramping doesnt occur until after the 4th trigger pull). Now I know alot of people will disagree with me but i think the firepower now available is discouraging new players from taking up the game and limiting the growth of the sport.

[Ninjeff]

Interesting debate.

Im coming at it from a slightly unique perspective. Ive been playing 10 years, well, let me correct that: ive been PLAYING for about 5 years. As i took sometime off from the game and maybe only played once a season.....(started in 97, stopped playing all the time in 01, and dindt play from 02 to 06, play every weekend now :) )

I was on a sponsored team for 3 years, and played the tourney scene. Of course, that was back in 99-01 so the rof was no where near what it is today. So, needless to say i have experiance, and though im not in NEAR the shape i was then, i can still play a field pretty good.

But i digress.

We go to the same local field every weekend. Sometimes we play all day, and other times we just play a game or two. Still, i am one of those players that have a fast marker (e-Mag) and i do wear a jersey, and all the rest of my gear. I often hear murmers from some of the new players. the typical stuff: "i want him on MY team" or "I dont wanna play that guy, he'll kill me" and such things. i always feel bad, and explain that just because i have my own gear, and a fast gun, doesnt MAKE me a better player than any of them. I often use a friend who plays pump as an example. I say "Well, that guy right there is using a PUMP gun, and he is far better than i am. I'd be worried about him" And i also try to mix up what team im on as much as i can.
Still, sometimes i can hear the fear in some newer players when i rip off alot of paint at the chrono station. While walking back i get the usual comments and questions. Sometimes its actually a BAD thing as my presence causes some players to NOT play in the group that im in. This happened last weekend. Towards the end of the day a ref tried to combine two groups into one for a good solid woodsball game. One of the guys from the other group REFUSED to play because we (my friends and I) had played earlier and he had seen us. He made all the typical commenst about how they would get killer, and shot up, and hurt and "had no chance" and that it was pointless. I told the guy that we werent even PLAYING anymore, and we were just there to hang out. We also offered to let them use OUR guns to play with. But the guy outright refused, and kept his group from joining the other one.
Im sure this is a unique example, but i really felt terrible. Aweful actually.

When i play i dont go 100%. Especially when im playing new rec players. I dont make all the crazy moves i could make, i dont rip strings of paint unless i HAVE to. I just play leisurely and try to move with the new players so i can give them advice. I dont play 100% for two reasons. 1. I dont NEED to. Ive been there, done that. Ive played tourney ball, ive been down that road of hard work, dedication and brutal compitition. Now i just play for FUN. Just to be around the game. I dont need to make nutty runs on new players to prove i still can. Because really, it doesnt PROVE anything.
and 2: The biggest reason, is because i want the new players to have fun. More than anything i want to see them get the bug like i have it. I want to see their eyes light up when they play this sport and realize its the only sport for them. I want them to come back again and again. ANd i know that ripping 15bps strings of paint at a bunker while i do a run through on thier buddies IS NOT going to do that. I just kick around the field and play for FUN. I always like winning. But i would rather see someone have fun than say "i eliminated 12 guys today". I still play hard, but after years of experiance i have learned how hard to play according to the crowd.

So, all of that being said, i dont think its ROF that would turn anyone off of the game per se', i think its the general attitude of the players and the respect for the sport and new players that would turn people off. When i see "tourney players" play on a field with some newbs and run around the field pouring paint at them and ruling the field i get upset. I would hope that they would play the game a little looser, more conservative, and give the new players a chance to have fun. Or they would go find the proper challenge and crowd for them to show off their skillz with.

For me, im buying a pistol. Ive been wanting one for a long time, and in addition to saving money on paint, it would be more conducive to allowing me to make crazy moves, run around the field coaching and entertaining new players ( being a mobile bunker is fun, and makes the kids laugh). It would also teach me how to snap shoot better, and thats my weakest ability right now.

[Pneumagger]

Firepower is not good nor bad for the sport... it's a moot point. Historically the sport has been growing sice the 80s while ROF and firepower as been increasing as well, though i doubt there is a strong link between the two observations. In the past few years we've had the best technology ever and the sport as a whole is plateauing - infact many have begun shifting toward pump play recently.

I believe paintball growth has stalled due to marketability. As paintball looses it's renaissance hype it had the past 5 years, it needs something else to keep atracting people, and marketability for the tourney scene just seems unmarketable. I'm not talking about the concept of people running around shooting each other and a sportlike structure - I'm talking about players, teams, and attittude.

1)Players - most sports have a high degree of athleticism. Athletes tune their bodies to their sport and display a skill uncommon and entertaining. The majority of paintballers are not necessarily skilled. Sure, there are a select few players in paintball that train like pro athletes should, but in any major professional sport every player on the field and bench puts forth that sort of commitment and it takes skill to step out on a field.... however looking at the bulk of "pro" players, you see average joes out there weilding expensive equipment and displaying mildly active skills. You can be 300 pounds, fat, and be a professional backman player as long as you have lots of money and fast fingers.
That's just not very marketable, people without a prior passion for the sport aren't going to be pulled in average persons.

2)Teams - Teams are always in a constant state of flux, players swap around local teams like their a bunch of pokemon cards. When all the dozens of D1 Pro teams come from only a handful of cities, it just doesn't produce an active loyal fanbase - it'd be like 4 pro football teams coming from Dallas alone... just not representative of a marketable sport. Also, with such names as "Stoned Assassins" and other juvenile names it is a political nigtmare for outside industries to provide sponsorship. Furthermore, teams play in like 5 different leagues... paintball needs to agree on one league and one set of rules.

3) Attitude - If I had to choose one word to describe pro attitudes, I would have to choose either condescending or immature. Pro level players need to step up and realize they are the figureheads in a blossoming sport, and need to act as such and ensure the positive image of paintball from their end of the sport. Paintball has a reputation for dishonesty both on and off the field. Off the field there is always an onslaught of leag problems and litigation and all sorts of muck that does not display a stable sport. On the field there is cheating, as with every sport. But the fanbase for every other sport doesn't condone it to the extent that paintball does. People claim cheating is a "skill" and "needed to win" and "part of the game". Ballers need to realize, as with every sport, that cheating occurs in games and should not be part of the game - that's why there's rules. I have seen time and again people congratulating cheaters for a "job well done" [cheating] and other people defending cheaters and MANUFACTURES making cheater producs. It'll be a cold day in hell when a professional athlete from any major sport gets a high five for shooting up steroids or get a standing ovation because he stepped out of bounds and got away with it. It's hard to promote and market a sport on the national and professional level when a primary message to young players openly implies "Champions Cheat".

Paintball will continue to stagnate until it cleans itself up and becomes more marketable. It doesn't matter if the players are using pump guns or electros. Am I generalizing in this rant? Yes, and i am well aware that these descriptions dont apply to 100% of ballers... but it applies to most and that's a huge hurdle for the sport of paintball and it's image to overcome. AGD, Tippman, Kingman, WGP... they all had the right concept years ago and that concept got abhorred and abused. No surprise though, no different than the rest of the world as of late.

/rant
//if you want 10 minutes of your life back please send paypal request to jrm33@case.edu

[Ninjeff]

Pneumagger everything you wrote is dead on point.

everything.

Well done.

[phat4life07]

Pneumagger, I'm very impressed :hail:

[Aslan]

I agree that attitudes are a problem. I also have said many times that cheating is a problem.

But those two things weren't the problems I saw yesterday. The "good" players actually were off-duty refs from that field and were really nice guys. I was acttually surprised at how nice they were. Sure, later on a few jerks showed up...I felt like punching one kid because as I came off the field he looked at my camo and classic Mag and said, "You're not really equiped to play this style of game." But to be honest, I was more pissed that I had just gotten shot out than I was at his comment. And then later on in the day we did have the 1-3 times where players started arguing about players wiping or running through etc...

The intimidation factor I saw yesterday was purely related to firepower. Sure, a newb can get an e-spyder for relatively cheap...but that's actually the BIGGEST mistake I see newbs make because they don't realize that a gun on full auto without eyes that is being gravity fed or fed too slowly is simply a fancy blender...but that's another story. What I saw were kids that were scared because they had mechs and these tourney players had massively faster guns. Even I...and I tend not to get very intimidated because I've held my own against these players in the past with my mech Mag...but even I finally just started sitting out and left early because it was pointless. I played a game of speedball on this smaller than regulation field and I literally couldn't come out of my bunker. There was just a constant stream of paint on both sides of the bunker. I finally popped my head out quickly to see where the guys were and I got nailed in the head. The kids tried to play speedball earlier and had similar luck...they would end up just frozen behind a back bunker and not even moving.

One of the kids that was there with his friends said he only plays in the woods and won't play at the field because he's too afraid. That's what really made me think about this question. It's so sad to see 7-11 year olds that are all bright-eyed about playing paintball suddenly sit out every game with their heads down. :(

The first time I started to see this as a problem was a few year's a go when the field I frequented got rid of "classes". They use to have a novice and advanced level. If your equipment was at a certain level(air, electros, electronic hoppers), you had to play advanced. This seperated out experienced players as well as players with better equipment, seperating them from the newbs, birthday parties, and general rec players. That system worked great and was alot of fun. Other fields have done similar things like banning ramping in rec play, etc... Ever since the field changed to just an "open class", you continue to see a few guys show up with dominant firepower and mow down newbs. And if the attitudes and cheating is there as well, then that's an added problem.

I just thought about this topic because yesterday was the worst I've seen it regarding younger, woodsball players and even older, more experienced guys like me get pretty much shut out of the competition. I have to admit I've been thinking of finally giving up on mech play and buying an A-5, PM6, or E-Mag. I mean, I don't mind going to a field and facing a team with some pistols who tear me up because they are really good players, move well, communicate well, etc... But when I get mowed down or pinned down by less skilled players who simply have an extra $600 in their marker....that kinda bothers me. :shooting:

[FiXeL]

The first time I started to see this as a problem was a few year's a go when the field I frequented got rid of "classes". They use to have a novice and advanced level. If your equipment was at a certain level(air, electros, electronic hoppers), you had to play advanced. This seperated out experienced players as well as players with better equipment, seperating them from the newbs, birthday parties, and general rec players. That system worked great and was alot of fun. Other fields have done similar things like banning ramping in rec play, etc... Ever since the field changed to just an "open class", you continue to see a few guys show up with dominant firepower and mow down newbs. And if the attitudes and cheating is there as well, then that's an added problem.

One of the fields in the netherlands changed their walk-on days in a similar fasion... 1st and 3rd sunday of the month is for anything you bring to the field, en 2nd and 4th is non-electro or pump. I think this is a good idea, because alot of new players get easily intimidated when you bring a fast gun on the field. I recognise alot in the previous posts, and i agree that something like a bps limit would be a good idea for rec fields. I play woods with a xmag, but i play with it in semi mode or capped electronic mode (8-12 bps max) and alot of times i just use my minimag.

Using a fast gun in rec games is not fair for the players that have non-electro semi's. Winning the game should be done with skills, not with firepower.

[punkncat]

Great for paint manufacturers, bad for the sport.

[Aslan]

Using a fast gun in rec games is not fair for the players that have non-electro semi's. Winning the game should be done with skills, not with firepower.

Great point Fixel. I liked the classes as well. The problems the field had with the classes was that it became harder to classify guns. It used to be that cocker and Mag players were more experienced and would get bumped up into the advanced class because they would use Air tanks. Then Tippmann came out with their A-5 with cyclone feed and managed to bypass the "electro hopper" restriction. Then Tippmann came out with a response trigger which was technically not electronic so they either needed to change their rules to furce response triggers to play advanced or they needed to let response triggers in beginning class. Since this field has very close ties to Tippmann and didn't want to hurt sales of response triggers and the like (their sales)...bye bye classes. :(

There was a tournament recently that I was going to sign up for. It was a "mech only" 3 man woodsball tournament. The only problem was they were not going to ban response triggers. That just seemed really stupid to me. I would have went to the trouble of organizing a team and driving pretty far away to go to this tournament...but not if I'm immediately at a 1-2 disadvantage in ROF. It was a nice idea though...I wish there were more mech only type tournaments.

As for pump, that's a tough one. I like playing pump...but I like actual pumps. Many of the high end "pumps" you see nowadays the pump stroke is so short or the people can hold the pump arm back and fire semi auto...to me that's not really a pump...but I'd still probably take the Brute out and try my luck in a pump tournament...it would certainly save on paint.

[Aslan]

Great for paint manufacturers, bad for the sport.

I hate paint manufactuers :mad: They ruin everything! :cry:

Very true though. Except ya know what...I used about a half a case of paint yesterday because in 2 of the 7 games I played in I didn't even get a shot off and in another I didn't even make it through a hopper before getting tagged. I'd actually love to use up some paint to be honest...it's last year's paint and I'm worried it will go bad before I get to play again. :cheers:

[Ninjeff]

I'll say again, its not the rate of fire, but the people behind the trigger.

If they are playing younger kids they should know not to play the way you describe. If they dont know that, then its a problem with respect on their part.

My mag will do 15+bps without breaking a sweat, but i have enough respect to not do 15 bps when playing with younger kids, or generally newer players.

Its not the ROF killing the sport at all. Its the "Im the best ever, look at how i smashed those nOObs" attitude.

[RogueFactor]

Firepower is not good nor bad for the sport... it's a moot point. Historically the sport has been growing sice the 80s while ROF and firepower as been increasing as well, though i doubt there is a strong link between the two observations. In the past few years we've had the best technology ever and the sport as a whole is plateauing - infact many have begun shifting toward pump play recently.

I believe paintball growth has stalled due to marketability. As paintball looses it's renaissance hype it had the past 5 years, it needs something else to keep atracting people, and marketability for the tourney scene just seems unmarketable. I'm not talking about the concept of people running around shooting each other and a sportlike structure - I'm talking about players, teams, and attittude.

1)Players - most sports have a high degree of athleticism. Athletes tune their bodies to their sport and display a skill uncommon and entertaining. The majority of paintballers are not necessarily skilled. Sure, there are a select few players in paintball that train like pro athletes should, but in any major professional sport every player on the field and bench puts forth that sort of commitment and it takes skill to step out on a field.... however looking at the bulk of "pro" players, you see average joes out there weilding expensive equipment and displaying mildly active skills. You can be 300 pounds, fat, and be a professional backman player as long as you have lots of money and fast fingers.
That's just not very marketable, people without a prior passion for the sport aren't going to be pulled in average persons.

2)Teams - Teams are always in a constant state of flux, players swap around local teams like their a bunch of pokemon cards. When all the dozens of D1 Pro teams come from only a handful of cities, it just doesn't produce an active loyal fanbase - it'd be like 4 pro football teams coming from Dallas alone... just not representative of a marketable sport. Also, with such names as "Stoned Assassins" and other juvenile names it is a political nigtmare for outside industries to provide sponsorship. Furthermore, teams play in like 5 different leagues... paintball needs to agree on one league and one set of rules.

3) Attitude - If I had to choose one word to describe pro attitudes, I would have to choose either condescending or immature. Pro level players need to step up and realize they are the figureheads in a blossoming sport, and need to act as such and ensure the positive image of paintball from their end of the sport. Paintball has a reputation for dishonesty both on and off the field. Off the field there is always an onslaught of leag problems and litigation and all sorts of muck that does not display a stable sport. On the field there is cheating, as with every sport. But the fanbase for every other sport doesn't condone it to the extent that paintball does. People claim cheating is a "skill" and "needed to win" and "part of the game". Ballers need to realize, as with every sport, that cheating occurs in games and should not be part of the game - that's why there's rules. I have seen time and again people congratulating cheaters for a "job well done" [cheating] and other people defending cheaters and MANUFACTURES making cheater producs. It'll be a cold day in hell when a professional athlete from any major sport gets a high five for shooting up steroids or get a standing ovation because he stepped out of bounds and got away with it. It's hard to promote and market a sport on the national and professional level when a primary message to young players openly implies "Champions Cheat".

Paintball will continue to stagnate until it cleans itself up and becomes more marketable. It doesn't matter if the players are using pump guns or electros. Am I generalizing in this rant? Yes, and i am well aware that these descriptions dont apply to 100% of ballers... but it applies to most and that's a huge hurdle for the sport of paintball and it's image to overcome. AGD, Tippman, Kingman, WGP... they all had the right concept years ago and that concept got abhorred and abused. No surprise though, no different than the rest of the world as of late.

/rant
//if you want 10 minutes of your life back please send paypal request to jrm33@case.edu

Good post. :headbang:

You dont even need fast fingers in most 'Pro' Leagues. Money buys that skill too :D

High ROF attained from skill: Good for the sport
Artificially high ROF attained from buying a computer chip: Bad for the sport

[Zone Drifter]

Lost of good posts, goes to show that theres still people out there who think for the sport.

A week ago while visiting relatives i began thinking, what if one day i decided to open up my own place? You know what i would have there? Simply pistols, pumps and single trigger mechanicals guns. I guess owning that Tiberius rifle got me in the minset that i should really make my shots count since its only a single trigger mechanical. Playing other guys with e-grip tippmans and still beating them with probably 70% less paint and air just using tactics is such an ego booster, i love it.

If you give a kid something like a pro classic as a rental, or even those tippmann 98's, thats what they think the sport is all about and when they go out there and some guys show up with ions and starts beating on them with paint, well then the respect for the talent goes down the toilet. I remember going to a local small field with using my rt pro with warp, and believe me, i got some stares and questions about my gun. I told them its no different from their guns, that mine simply feeds from the side because i dont like getting hit in the hopper. I even let some kid use it and i think i converted him to mags. XD There was another guy playing that day with a home built mag, had a single trigger and e-mag valve. He was holding his own no problem, and probably only use like 50% of the paint that those ion guys were using.

Case in point, i remember when a semi was the craze, and i hadn't even heard of a full auto paintball gun, that was like phantasy. To be honest, thats when i had the most fun playing. One time my friends and i went out and each bought a cheap talon, then went in the woods and played all day with one case of paint and Co2 cartridges. It was so awesome.

If i ever do open a field, you can bed i'll be going all mechanical. It would be a place that everyone can have lots of fun at.

[mostpeople]

And you'd eliminate 50% of the people who would otherwise play there.

Technology is good, and debating whether full auto is better than semi auto is better than stock class is better than ramping etc... whatever.

The technology is here, and if you are going to go out there to win then take out there whatever you want. If you want to play phantom in x-ball do it, dont whine about it. Personally I look out there and I see everyone using ramping electro's, so what am I going to do? Take out my ramping electro and then BAM I have just evened the playing field and it now comes down to skill.

One can argue, with ramping or full auto one does not need skill, wrong. If the playing field is level then its ALL about skill. And if you refuse to embrace the new technology then the field is not even, and is skewed in their favor. Again do what you want, but lets be realistic here.

This doesnt mean I dont support that new all mechanical leage thats supposedly coming out.. but we shall see if that ever pans out.

[iambored]

My take on the ROF stuff:
<i>Oh yeah? Your gun might be fancy and shoot fast and spit eye-beams. But mine is cheaper!</i>
Oh and ROF increase always bad.

[Ninjeff]

And you'd eliminate 50% of the people who would otherwise play there.

Technology is good, and debating whether full auto is better than semi auto is better than stock class is better than ramping etc... whatever.

The technology is here, and if you are going to go out there to win then take out there whatever you want. If you want to play phantom in x-ball do it, dont whine about it. Personally I look out there and I see everyone using ramping electro's, so what am I going to do? Take out my ramping electro and then BAM I have just evened the playing field and it now comes down to skill.

One can argue, with ramping or full auto one does not need skill, wrong. If the playing field is level then its ALL about skill. And if you refuse to embrace the new technology then the field is not even, and is skewed in their favor. Again do what you want, but lets be realistic here.

This doesnt mean I dont support that new all mechanical leage thats supposedly coming out.. but we shall see if that ever pans out.


but the original post was about the effect the high ROF has on new players. If you want to be realistic, then lets be realistic. Most people cant, or dont want, to shell out a few hundred bucks for a gun, a hundred or so for a hp tank, and then another $60 AT LEAST every time they go to play.
So just because these kids dont have the ability to buy electronic, or even because its thier first time they should be on an un even playing field because of it?

[RogueFactor]

If the playing field is level then its ALL about skill.

A sport isnt about making the playing field level. If the playing field is level(everyone can ramp), then its NOTHING about skill(shooting skill that is). This is still a shooting sport.

Again do what you want, but lets be realistic here. :cheers:

[olinar]

i guess this is exactly why this will never be an Olympic event or anything of the like. skill and talent come in a box. the more you pay for the box the more talent it comes with. i try to stay out of the tournament scene because it just doesnt fit my playing style. when me and my friends play we just go out and have fun. as a matter of fact my friends are telling me to get rid of my emaggo frame so as to make it fair. im not the best player in my group but no one wants to play against me when i have access to such high rates of fire. i guess its bad for my game but i have no idea how it effects everyone else's.

[Pneumagger]

It's more of a mental hurdle the newbs have to overcome. Whenever I 1 on 1 with josh, me with electro and josh with pump, he beats me. Once we shot each other out at the same time... I took it as a victory.

Although it's tough to learn skills like moving, posting up, etc with more experieced kids unloading 4 pods every game.

[paintballfiend]

I don't think we must to accomidate the fear of new players. All you should do is tell them to get over it or go home.

[kruger]

I don't think we must to accomidate the fear of new players. All you should do is tell them to get over it or go home.

Sorry, I disagree with this statement. I spend a lot of time at the field encouraging "new" players. The 15 BPS on a bunker can make an intimidating sound for people who are not used to what it means. And the more care that you spend with a new, young player makes him a more courteous experienced player. If a new player is treated badly and he decides to stay with paintball and play, then that is the way that he will treat "newbs" when he playes with them. This is just a game, and should be treated as such. Arrogant, uncaring players are one of the reasons that speedball has a tarnished image.

[paintballfiend]

So if I tell a kid to get over his fear or he will have a crappy time that is me being arrogant and uncaring?

[mostpeople]

A sport isnt about making the playing field level. If the playing field is level(everyone can ramp), then its NOTHING about skill(shooting skill that is). This is still a shooting sport.

Again do what you want, but lets be realistic here. :cheers:


We've discussed this at length, and im not sure you've ever understood me on this point. Its hard to explain, but regardless of what you say everyone out there will do what they want. I dont have the luxury of always playing who I want, and im sure a lot of others dont either. And when those people are taking out ego's, shockers, DM's and you are out there with your classic, your tippman its just not fun.

So my point is, if they are doing it, which they obviously are. Why not take the same technology and use it to your advantage as well? So you are negating the fact that their marker wtfpwns yours, and going out there on an even playing field.

Maybe you like a challenge, maybe you think its ub0r to go out against those people with those high end electros with your mags. So be it - just dont complain about it.

[mostpeople]

but the original post was about the effect the high ROF has on new players. If you want to be realistic, then lets be realistic. Most people cant, or dont want, to shell out a few hundred bucks for a gun, a hundred or so for a hp tank, and then another $60 AT LEAST every time they go to play.
So just because these kids dont have the ability to buy electronic, or even because its thier first time they should be on an un even playing field because of it?


Its called life

I have the ability to buy those guns, the paint, the tanks etc..

But Im also a reasonable guy, I will turn my marker to semi automatic if im playing a bunch of rec ballers, and they ask -- I dont care.

[RogueFactor]

Why not take the same technology and use it to your advantage as well? So you are negating the fact that their marker wtfpwns yours, and going out there on an even playing field.

The 'everyone else is doing it, I should too' position. The same arguments thats been used for cheating...And everyone wonders why this game is declining.

Simple answer...Because this game shouldnt be about technology, it should be about skill.


Maybe you like a challenge,

Of course! If it isnt a challenge, whats the point. This is, and should be, a game based on skill and should always be a challenge, its the only way to get better.

Im not a big fan of 'God-Mode', it removes the challenge, making the endeavor pointless.

[kruger]

I don't think we must to accomidate the fear of new players.

This is the part of you statement that I was taking issue with. We both know that if you can overcome your fear of something, then you are on the road to mastery of it. Saying it and doing it are two different things. I have seen 11 yo take hits that would make me squint, and not say a word, and I have seen 17 yo guys cry over the slightest hits. If you dont take into consideration another persons fear, then you are a part of the problem, not the solution. Now, that does not mean that you coddle them, but it does mean that you offer a reasonable amount of encouragement. I am not talking hand holding here. There is a line, and it is different in each case, as to what is "reasonable".

[mostpeople]

The 'everyone else is doing it, I should too' position. The same arguments thats been used for cheating...And everyone wonders why this game is declining.

Simple answer...Because this game shouldnt be about technology, it should be about skill.



Of course! If it isnt a challenge, whats the point. This is, and should be, a game based on skill and should always be a challenge, its the only way to get better.

Im not a big fan of 'God-Mode', it removes the challenge, making the endeavor pointless.


1. It is about skill, about movement, about teamwork, about strategy, about ITT. It just isnt so much about triggering anymore. And personally IMHO the other parts are more interesting anyways.

2. Its not a handicap is what I meant, its leveling the firepower playing field so that. Paintball is always a challenge. You make it sound like ramping is god mode, and you are invincible. Which is truly not the case.

[RogueFactor]

We've discussed this at length, and im not sure you've ever understood me on this point.

I understand you on this point, Im not sure if youve understood my position. So I will quote another AO'er...


Honestly I do see a tiny positive side.... tiny. I still feel and really don't see any way that it's not more of a limit of skill than anything else.

Be honest , really be honest , when you watch a game of younger players playing speed/X/air ball and most of the team is shooting 15+ literally with on finger on the trigger ( I see it all the time) , how could that possibly be 'equal' to someone capable of that on a semi ?

If that kid and concievably the rest of his team was shooting 5 instead of 15 would you not agree that no matter how great his others skills , he'd be at a disadvantage ?

Of course there are times when it;s not critical BUT there are plenty of times when it is.

Last point then , I had a kid on a team in the past that could easily , regulary and consistantly walk 12-13 bps while on a pretty fast run , not dead run but hauling. I'm not to shabby at it myself. I've only seen a handfull of people EVER that can do what he could on the move. It's was a huge advantage to have an extra gun in the air raining paint AND taking an offensive bunker. Imagine 2 doing it.

Now imagine , wait.... just look , now anyone can do it in fact now at 15+.

That's my main point.

I said it earlier , Ramp/Auto/PSP is not an 'evolution' of the sport. It just isn't. No one in the world sat down and said,

"Hey , you know what would make the sport more competitve and better for TV and spectator? Automatic firing ! !"

Didn't happen that way.

What happened was "Hey , cheating is way out of control.We can't stop it , we can;t hardly even make a dent no matter what we do. It's a problem that is being CREATED and SUPPORTED by the manufactuers AND the sponsers where we get all our revenue so we can possibly do anything to them so.... now what. If they're going to cheat with ROF , we'll let everyone cheat in the same way and focus our efforts elsewhere."

Actually they 'thought' it'd be easy hear a 15+ cheater amongst the =/- 15er's and they were Soooooo wrong. :D

People are now getting caught on , occasion , shooting into the 20's.

[RogueFactor]

And another...


The NASCAR example is heavily flawed however. They're trying to make the equiptment equal for all but not restrictive of the drivers ability.

Your example would be more like making the cars all automatic because some of the drivers can't shift as well as others , which only hurts the drivers with better shifting skill.

Or mandating power steering cause some drivers arms aren't as strong as others.

Catering to the lowerest common denominator in a supposed 'competition' is a sad joke played on everyone involved.

I guess the next logical 'Evolution' of the game is to limit the time your allowed to make a bunker off the break so fast feet isn't an advantage....

Then we can add glass panels to all the bunkers so being a fast snap shooter isn't an advantage....

Of course the next step would be no talking on the feild so fast communication isn't an advantage....

I guess the future of paintball is....... Chess. :D

[RogueFactor]

And another...


The only real place that I see ramping making a noticable difference is in bunkering and run throughs.

It used to be that it took alot of shooting skill to maintain a stream of fire while making a bunker move or a run through. No it seems everyone is 'capable' of it.

Oh the other hand, since I still refuse to ramp against the ramper I typically have an easier time outshooting most others during snap shooting and it's easier to catch people on the reload since they relaod more often now.

So....I'm digging it. :D

For ther record , my local field regulary has pro and semi pro teams practicing there. I feel pretty good about being able to hang with that crowd. It's quite a different ball game against walk ons. :p

[RogueFactor]

1. It is about skill, about movement, about teamwork, about strategy, about ITT. It just isnt so much about triggering anymore. And personally IMHO the other parts are more interesting anyways.

If the other parts are more interesting, and you arent interested in triggering....I suggest checking out DodgeBall. It has all the same skills required without the triggering :rofl: Play a shooting sport, you should be prepared to have the skill of 'triggering'.

Joking aside, if you are REALLY interested in those other parts that are more interesting, then play PUMP. Its about movement, teamwork, and strategy---also includes shooting skill, and isnt about triggering.


2. Its not a handicap is what I meant, its leveling the firepower playing field so that. Paintball is always a challenge. You make it sound like ramping is god mode, and you are invincible. Which is truly not the case.

Firepower achieved should be based on skill, and not leveled. Please refer to the previous past 3 posts I made quoting another AO'er.

[mostpeople]

Ramping is still here to stay, and I wont handicap myself.. and I wouldnt reccomend anyone else do that because it leads to complaints.

Reminiscing about the old days is nice... but times have changed. We arent all playing stock class anymore.

I'll keep my ramping, and if you dont take it out there against me you will be handicapped -- End of story. But you can still feel good because you are doing all the work yourself :)

[mostpeople]

Rogue why dont you start up a mechanical league? I'd play in it and you wouldnt have to play with those dirty electro noobs :)

[mostpeople]

Btw I also play pump ;) We have a little woods field we all go out to, and I usually borrow a buddy's 2nd phantom.

*edit and dogdgeball is an awesome sport. But it doesnt involve me punishing little tippman noobs ;) with stuff being shot out of my gun.

[RogueFactor]

Ramping is still here to stay, and I wont handicap myself.. and I wouldnt reccomend anyone else do that because it leads to complaints.

Reminiscing about the old days is nice... but times have changed. We arent all playing stock class anymore.

I'll keep my ramping, and if you dont take it out there against me you will be handicapped -- End of story. But you can still feel good because you are doing all the work yourself :)

1) Dont bet on it. Ramping has only been around legally for 2-3 years at best. And in that timeframe, paintball aint been doing so well. Whether its here to stay or not, is yet to be determined ;)

2) Times havent changed, the rules have. They had full-auto markers long ago. Bouncing markers are nothing new. Its funny you think that ramping is 'new-school' though. :spit_take

Remember, ramping is like T-Ball...its for 6 year olds :rofl:

[RogueFactor]

Rogue why dont you start up a mechanical league? I'd play in it and you wouldnt have to play with those dirty electro noobs :)

Nothing wrong with electros at all. The ones that shoot semi-auto. :cheers:

[mostpeople]

1) Dont bet on it. Ramping has only been around legally for 2-3 years at best. And in that timeframe, paintball aint been doing so well. Whether its here to stay or not, is yet to be determined ;)

2) Times havent changed, the rules have. They had full-auto markers long ago. Bouncing markers are nothing new. Its funny you think that ramping is 'new-school' though. :spit_take

Remember, ramping is like T-Ball...its for 6 year olds :rofl:


Teh?

Ramping has been around for a while, and and full auto too yes.. but the fact im trying to convey is that they will not be going away - EVER. Too many people like it, one could argue that this fact is what contributed to the ion's amazing success.

[mostpeople]

1) Dont bet on it. Ramping has only been around legally for 2-3 years at best. And in that timeframe, paintball aint been doing so well. Whether its here to stay or not, is yet to be determined ;)

2) Times havent changed, the rules have. They had full-auto markers long ago. Bouncing markers are nothing new. Its funny you think that ramping is 'new-school' though. :spit_take

Remember, ramping is like T-Ball...its for 6 year olds :rofl:


One could argue that such complaining is also for 6 year olds.. :rolleyes: Embrace the power of the dark side.

[Beemer]

I'll keep my ramping, and if you dont take it out there against me you will be handicapped -- End of story. But you can still feel good because you are doing all the work yourself :)

You can use your ramping, I dont need it. Why would I be handicapped cause I dont use it?

[kruger]

I'm sensing a little tension here...................

[stonersr26]

Or you coiuld be like my brother and hate ramping because it HANDICAPS him!!! I have seen, heard, and chronoed him with a pact at anywhere from 17-23 in straight semi with legal bounce levels. I've seen both sides and agree with some points of both arguments about ramping, but I still feel that ramping has not been very good for the actual sport. It has been good for the manufacturing side of the sport as paint, loader, board, and et cetera manufacturers are always scrambling to have the best and fastest piece of equiptment out there.

[paintballfiend]

This is the part of you statement that I was taking issue with. We both know that if you can overcome your fear of something, then you are on the road to mastery of it. Saying it and doing it are two different things. I have seen 11 yo take hits that would make me squint, and not say a word, and I have seen 17 yo guys cry over the slightest hits. If you dont take into consideration another persons fear, then you are a part of the problem, not the solution. Now, that does not mean that you coddle them, but it does mean that you offer a reasonable amount of encouragement. I am not talking hand holding here. There is a line, and it is different in each case, as to what is "reasonable".

:clap: :headbang:

[gus13]

I know this topic has been done before...and possibly to death.. QFT! cuz it always turns into an ROF debate (see all previous posts in thread! :ninja: ).


I don't know, I admit there is nothing that can be done about the trend towards higher ROF...but after today it made me wonder if the higher ROF isn't pushing the younger generation and new players away. It might be more interesting for the teens already involved, but so far I'ev seen it as a negative with the younger kids that would fuel the future of the sport.
Any thoughts?

It's a double edged sword, some like the high ROF some don't. The joy of the sport though is the fact that there are so many different styles, from speed/airball, to woods/scenario and several different classes in between (semi,ramping, stock) that as a "veteran player" you could easily talk to the Newer players and see exactly what it is they expect from this sport. if they don't honestly know, then encourage them to try other areas. ie. if they are trying speedball for thier first time playing but were thinking it would be slower and more "milsim" let them know about some of the scenario/woodsball events that are coming up in the area and encourage them to show up to that, maybe it would fit their style.
the fact is people who claim that woodsball is the only "real" paintball game are wrong as people who claim,"if you don't ramp then you prolly aren't worth playing" (or whatever)


I don't think we must to accomidate the fear of new players. All you should do is tell them to get over it or go home.
its not accomodating thier fears its helping them face it, without actually shoving it in[/] their face. thats like telling a new driver that if their not doing 120 m.p.h.around hairpin corners they shouldn't be behind the wheel. its just silly.(bad analogy but its the first one that came to mind :rolleyes: )


Ramping is still here to stay, and I wont handicap myself.. and I wouldnt reccomend anyone else do that because it leads to complaints.
I have met a few people who; when at a ramping tourney, won't ramp because it limits their normal ROF. Generally that is because those people actually took the time to learn how to shoot their marker and played in enough semi-only games that they learned how to trigger it better w/out any assistance.


I'll keep my ramping, and if you dont take it out there against me you will be handicapped -- End of story. But you can still feel good because you are doing all the work yourself
ummmm sure, I actually wiill feel better cuz I [I]am doing all the work myself, but I don't think I'd be all that handicapped anyway....sorry to bust your little bubble there boss, but after playing enough people with that exact same attitude I have learned that its not a handicap in the least. If anything its an aid because it forces you to play smarter and find better angles than rely entirely on putting massive amounts of paint in the air.

[RobOpel]

I'll keep my ramping, and if you dont take it out there against me you will be handicapped -- End of story. But you can still feel good because you are doing all the work yourself :)[/QUOTE]


I realize this has been said earlier, but with my g7 and pneumag, 15 bps ramping would put me at a disadvantage. A time or two, I've had an old mag guy ask me if Ive modified an autoresponse frame outrageously (my pneumag uses an angel 90* frame), and most people don't believe that its not electro and I'm not using ramping...I had a ref tell me my solenoid was broken one time when I was tuning it. Back to the point though, while just shooting at the chrono, I can get my G7 to hit 20 (the rof thing in the opto board told me so) with no bounce and in semi. While I'm on the field, 16 is pretty easily achievable, even while on the run. My point here is that ramping is not 'necessary' as so many people seem to think it is. I feel like people who use ramping and have a trigger set up that would allow them to fire fast in semi and don't admit that they are just too lazy to learn to pull fast are liars.
That being said, I have played several games with ramping guns and found that I was less concerned with playing well and certainly didn't realize how much paint I was actually using.

Back to the point of how all of this effects new players...I have played a bunch of games with kids shooting rental guns and kids shooting ions with the same amount of firepower I have. The end result is pretty much always the same: First, in the staging area people are visibly nervous, occasionally asking the 'hey man, is that an angel? Don't those things shoot like 30 bps?' to which I respond 'Yes, and no, I can't pull that fast' The second part of this, is when I play with people who are obviously less experienced than I am, I I do my best to one ball or 'bunker tag' them...usually on a run through. This is how I keep these less competitive games interesting, I play a lot like I do when I play against more experienced people, but just make sure I keep my head about me so I don't bunker a 7 year old kid or something like that. At the end of the day, I'm able to make it an exciting game for me, but more importantly I'm also able to make things fun for the first timers.

Rob

[SGranier]

My quick two cents. There's nothing better than when I'm at a field with my PGP.

When you walk to the chrono station with a PGP you'll get the strangest questions and looks from a large majority of the players, and personally I look a bit ridiculous being a 6' 195 lbs guy holding this little tiny pump pistol in my hand.

Sure you spend some time behind bunkers as the ions rip paint at you, but there's nothing like the feeling on picking someone off with a PGP at 20-30 yards... or charging a bunker knowing you've got one shot.

Best ever is at larger fields when you get to... :ninja: around and sneak behind the opposing team.

Sure the ROF is going up, and personally I have no idea why I built my intelli-warp mag when all I shoot is 3-4 bps anyway.

As others have said, for the most part, it's who's pulling the trigger that counts.

And if you never have gone into a game before with a pump, never the less a SC marker. Give it a try some time. I've never been more acrobatic, daring, and adventurous... nor tiny for that matter!

[/ShamelessPumpStockClassPromotion][/rant]

[Tao]

Increased rate of fire in the bush isn't so bad since trees and shrubs catch alot of it. Of course there are always open sections. However I think most people are better off trying to aim through the less dense parts of the push rather than just trying to hammer one through.

[ThePixelGuru]

Increased ROF is great. Everyone hoses a ton of paint, more of it gets sold, and prices drop. Then I can buy myself a bag of 500 for like $10 and play all day. Plus I look like a badass when I drop someone with a ramping marker with a double-tap from my Minimag.

So keep shooting, guys. The faster you shoot the cheaper my paint gets. :D

[Cleric]

rof at fields should be ~15bps as tourney rules unless its a special event.

[ghostdog2019]

At my local field and all fields alike it seems like your always gonna get some punk kids with there sponsor or daddy's money shooting some enormous amount of paint from a high end electro. To help the noobies and young kids I just team with the noobs to even the playing field. My emag set at 15bps pure semi seems to work against all competitors. Plus I even put in it manual mode sometimes just for fun. You would be suprised how well me being 6'6" and 270 can move and bunker someone. Plus when teaming with new players they tend to look up to a veterans leadership and also seem to want to learn more and seem to listen better to position commands better then your average punk kid shooting his mouth off while his board does all his shooting. As is stands right now people are gonna have guns that are going to ramp and have breakout modes (hate this one wasn't paying attention to the whistle and did not get a good jump and got tagged about 13 times). It is really up to us veterans to take a stand for the youth and keep the sport alive.

-Mike Brothman

[Coralis]

rof at fields should be ~15bps as tourney rules unless its a special event.


actually i was thinking around 10 bps is more like it for rec ball

[cdc120602]

Okay so I don't even know what ramping is nor do I care. I consider it a challenge to nail as many E-markered young bucks as I can. If I get taken out, no big deal. I started the game outgunned. I always get at least one, though. It only takes one little paintball. I used to play and win with my little Talon when everyone else had their semis. It's all about timing and aim. I can see it being intimidating for kids just starting up. I can definitely see where it would be a good idea for fields to start up a set time or area for newcomers with rentals or strictly finger powered mechs. It's not bad for the sport as long as there are people out there who can show the new guys that ROF isn't everything.

[jenarelJAM]

Didn't read the whole thread, just enough to see many of the posts were about rof and ramping, and not particularly relating to the original post, which asked about the impacts of rof on new players.

In my experience, new players are nervous about the sport because a) they don't want to get shot, and b) they have no idea how to play, and know it.

Coming out to a field with nothing but a rental gun and a friend who is telling you "it'll be fun, lets go!" while watching teams practice on the field 20 feet away is probably somewhat agonizing for new players. But contrary to public opinion, I'm not so sure it's the rate of fire that makes them nervous. I know that the rof is probably the first thing they notice, but I think that underneath, they are scared of the "pros." Rate of Fire, to the inexperienced player, is probably indicative of skill, and new players are probably afraid of being outclasses when the penalty for failure is a sharp pain to a random extremity.

From my personal experience, even when I play pump, I usually feel like I don't quite fit in with the rental players because I do wear a jersey and paintball pants, (pants for the padding, and jersey because I have to wear something... and I already have it) and usually go out of my way to try to encourage them. When I went to a private party for one of my friends' birthday, most of his friends had never played before, and I definitely sensed that they were, if not afraid, wary of my on the field, even though I played pump.

[Cleric]

i've been playing for 3 years now...only play speedball pickup for fun, and im more afraid of a noob firing 25bps then a pro firing 15

[Cleric]

timing+aiming+rof > timing+aiming

[Cleric]

also i dont think having an exact limit for every gun is a good idea...people always want to make their stuff better just like cars, nothing would be as unique or cool if it was identical in performance to another

[Paintchucker]

Didn't we have this same conversation before? About a decade ago when Angels started pushing out cockers and mags from the tourney arena ??? Or was it that other time before that, when semiauto guns started pushing out pumps, and fields were starting to allow both on Saturdays, instead of just having open day on Sunday... :ninja:

I guess good or bad would be relative terms. The advance in BPS hasn't killed PB yet...


As far as a given BPS limit... It seems to me that a field owner should do that. Up to a certain point a higher BPS allows the players to buy more paint, but if it is intimidating "too many" players, then it just doesn't make good business sense... Fewer players shooting more paint doesn't add up for the lost total number of players.

[chill will]

I think that it works both ways. If BPS is attracting new players to the game then that is good biz for field owners and their paint and marker sells. On the other hand new players that come into the sport and buy those faster markers, in my opinion, won’t stay in the sport as long due to the incredible amounts of money spent feeding the paint spiting markers. Call me old school, but I don’t see a lot of new players turning into old players when they start off using faster markers. Personally I feel when players marker develops with their playing skill they tend to stick around the game a little longer.

[RogueFactor]

Didn't we have this same conversation before? About a decade ago when Angels started pushing out cockers and mags from the tourney arena ??? Or was it that other time before that, when semiauto guns started pushing out pumps, and fields were starting to allow both on Saturdays, instead of just having open day on Sunday... :ninja:

We did. The only difference now being that the player isnt shooting every shot. A computer program is shooting paintballs that the player isnt pulling the trigger for. By removing the shooting skill required to play the game, you are also removing the point of playing a shooting sport.

[bryceeden]

From a shop owners perspective the high rate of fire is good as it equils more paint sales. Now the retarded PBN mentality thats killing the sport coupled with high ROF is bad. Good players with high ROF that take it easy on new players and make sure everyone has a good time are great. The loosers who feel the need to light everyone up and pick on noobs are morons and drive away the next generation of players. Also on high rate of fire if players are forced to use NPPL legal markers very few can pass 13BPS and even less can beat 15, I've yet to see anyone who can actually break 17bps when tested by accurate means as opposed to the BPS moniter of thier Ego. Now thats not to say they don't claim 25 BPS but when called out and checked their not even close.

[RRfireblade]

If it means anything , the field our last two meets and the next FPPL tourny is being held at , had a ratio of something like 5 to 1 woods to speedball. I think on the overall level , rec still out weighs speedball heavily (always have too) so I wouldn't worry too much about it. That being said tho , RT Tippys are still the marker of choice with that crowd. :)

As I'm sure has been said (didn't read all 3 pages), it of course works both ways. "Easy" ROF has always attracted players to the game. Every sport in existance has tried to make the game easier to play to attract more people . . . oversize golf clubs , aluminum bats , big headed tennis raquest etc. It's just the way things progess , the difference is wether or not the spirit of the game gets jeopardize because of it. I think in paintballs case , it has somewhat but I think that in the long run it will level out to somewhere between the 2 extremes.

On a side note , should I even bother to tell you'll what happend when our 15-18 person pump group took on the WHOLE rest of the feilds semi/speed/tourny players (20+) for an all out battle to the death ? :ninja:

Let's just say it was ugly . . . real ugly. ;)

[Aslan]

I don't know if I should be proud that my thread took off and inspired so much interest...or ashamed of myself for opening an age old wound... :rolleyes:

I think the thread got a little off topic. Everyone has their own feelings about ROF...some are like me and remember when we had most fun playing was with a couple Stingrays and a few Talons. But then others remind me that even then...the guy with the Stingray had an advantage so somebody showed up with a Raptor. Then a guy showed up with a Tippmann. Pretty soon that guy holding the Talon was like, "Hey...this isn't fun anymore!"

I started out over 10 years ago with a Tiger Shark and loved it. I played against semi-autos...but could hold my own. Unfortunately, my range was limited and I decided to upgrade to a Spyder. That gun lasted me years...and I still use it from time to time as a back-up. I never needed nor wanted an electro.

But the point of this post wasn't me belly-acheing about getting beat by electros. I'm a big boy...I can take it. What prompted the post was that I saw some kids who really weren't having the fun I had when I started playing. They weren't so much afraid...they were...but it was more than that. They looked at the other players the way a guy riding the bus looks at someone in a convertible with babes in the back. :wow: They looked disappointed, like paintball wasn't something they could afford to be good at. And that made me sad. I wanted to tell them that I play with an old Classic, nothing fancy, and I hold my own. But after that day of getting my can handed to me :cry: I really couldn't do that.

I don't know how to fix things. Maybe I can fix my problems by just buying an electro and joining the party. I don't know how to help the kids though. Maybe paintball will just be a sport for the rich, like Golf, or tennis, or polo, or ice skating. :cheers:

[drg]

Aslan, regarding your original post and concern ... I think it's not the ROF or the equipment or even the players -- it's the format.

Speedball of any type, but ESPECIALLY airball or other solid-barrier field types, is a very technical game. It requires a style of play that does not come naturally to people, with its emphasis on sticking tight to the edges of cover and snapshooting from contorted body positions. How many times do you see noobs on the speedball field, playing loose -- you can just tell by their mannerisms that they are newer players -- and you know they are going to get shot out of every game they play in with even moderately experienced players, probably without scoring a single kill themselves.

In speedball, the recycle concept is extremely rare. There are no second chances. Distances are short, so even at the start of the game you have little time to actually take stock of what is happening, leading to mass confusion for new players. Cover is opaque, with sharply defined edges, and often arranged in such ways that it's easy to be "moved on" and taken out without even noticing the other player.

Natural-barrier, woodsball-type of play is more suited to new players. Let's face it, on a minute-by-minute basis, playing woodsball is outright easier than speedball. Or at least it's a lot more forgiving. And even if you are being dominated, at least you can see more of your opponent (through brush or what have you), and can shoot in his direction perhaps even at his piece of cover, trying to sneak one through, rather than shooting dead air most of the time as in speedball.

Woodsball fields are larger, giving players more time to think and more options as to the intensity of conflict they want to engage in. You can screw around, play "army" or what have you, and have a reasonable chance of staying in the game a while. On speedball fields, it's pretty much balls to the wall the whole game, play or die. A few seconds of inattention or sloppy play and you're gone.

So I think the things you are seeing are actually attributable to the rise of speedball rather than the increase of gun technology. Heck some of the most dominant teams I see are pump teams, and it ain't any more fun to play against them if you get destroyed. If anything it's less fun!

I came to speedball with 14 years of experience as a player. I did some reasearch about the style of play, I bought into that style, I even built a faster gun before I even set foot on a speedball field. And I still had no idea what I was doing when I got into it. The style of play is remarkably different and on the whole a lot more difficult to overcome a lack of experience -- or field layout knowledge. I am still not very good at speedball two years later.

I don't think I have ever played in the woods and not had fun, but I can say there are times after playing speedball that I did not have all that much fun in a day of play. If I had started out on the speedball field, I'm not sure I'd have ever fallen in love with the sport.

I'd wager most of the time it's not geting "hit" that scares new players the most (once they get past their first few whacks) ... or even old players. Adrenaline covers the pain in most situations, especially among new players just feeling the "rush". That's fun in itself. But when you can't play ... you DEFINITELY aren't having any fun.

[evil]

in response to the OP.

i in fact hate to see BPS caps in tournaments, why not just make us play with pumps. i also hate to see new players renting 15 year old technology, most of the time unable to competitively play and never returning; either done with the paintball thing or playing that lame airsoft crap.

ive been playing for a very long time and i can still recall the first time an angel LED walked out on the field. it was fast, way way way faster than my 3-4 bps rental gun. the rate of fire was nearly triple the rental guns speed. it was scary back then especially when i found out how much it cost.

what is happening today is a HUGE lag in Technological advancements of low end rental geared equipment. and you can thank sue happy SP for parts of that. the average rental gun is still some old crappy Tippman that still shoots 6-7BPS (if your lucky), its been this way for the better part of a decade. all the while high end guns slowly got faster and cheaper. you would think that this would trickle down and create a low priced marker with decent reliability, serviceability, and good performance. this unfortunately is not ever going to happen, with ridiculously broad patents.

basically lower end rental guns have gone unchanged because of a Price Point control method used by SP. lower cost manufacturing and development has been stifled because of this. if this nonsense was stopped and it legally could be, you may see in the next couple of years ion type performance in the hands of renters. is it wrong for someone to want to shoot 31bps? or is it wrong for someone to want 31bps and end up with 6?

the moment i was able to afford an electo i bought one, it was a piece of crap defiant, and still cost me $500. ive owned every gun under the sun and if it cost me my unborn children to have a one up on the competition then so be it. i like to stand by the saying "just because you don't have it doesn't mean i shouldn't".

fanboys, marketing, and manufacturing is slowly killing paintballs newer generations. ROF is nothing if you cant hit someone with a single ball.

this was all my beliefs and opinions so take however you will. i just try not to over shoot noobs and i like to give them tips on how they should play with crappy rentals, i hope that me being nice will bring them back or at least let them see how fun it could be if they commit.

[Ninjeff]

i beleive its capped at 15 bps as more of a safety concern than anything else.

I dont want 30 balls flying at me because then there is almost no way not to bonus ball. Its just not safe.

[nathanjones008]

I see good and bad things in high rof. I think its bad for kids to start off with ions shockers and dms and pmrs. etc... They should start off with a non electric gun, learn how to work on it and to fix it first, so they can appreciate it fully. Then as they get better and more into it i see nothing wrong with a higher in gun. To make a long story short high rof is great for the expericed player and not to good for the nood. :shooting:


I have seen noobs with brand new shockers and cockers with (rich) parents buy there kids these guns, these kids have no idea how to fix them!

[Aslan]

i in fact hate to see BPS caps in tournaments, why not just make us play with pumps. i also hate to see new players renting 15 year old technology, most of the time unable to competitively play and never returning; either done with the paintball thing or playing that lame airsoft crap.


I think you're proving my point that paintball has become a sport that just plain requires a huge investment and eventually will become a very niche sport. Paintball is actually very unique in that way. Most sports require very little monetary investment. I can think of only Golf, Ice Skating, and maybe ice hockey or tennis...maybe sport shooting... Paintball has gotten very popular...and I don't want to say some of that is absolutely due to higher end, flashier, "Agg" equipment. Obviously being on ESPN2 helps. Speedball fields have allowed fields to spring up in places where woodsball fields are just not there.

The thing that makes me uncomfortable is that the price of the sport is getting out of hand. Everyone (except Lohman) complains about paint prices...but oh well...that's part of the game. But when you start to add the price of higher end guns and the added paint you'll need to throw with those guns...paintball becomes OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive. :wow:

And the arguement has always been, that you don't need to throw that much paint to be competitive. What I've seen recently is, you do. I here people talk about pump players and how they're so scary and good and pump play is getting to be popular...but so far I've "seen" very little but "heard" alot. Players talk about the satisfaction of getting people out with a pump...well, that's great...but if you get 2 kills and get hit 6 times...is that good? The bottom line is if you're pump team could walk on the field and take out a decent team of players using electros...you'd see teams doing that ALL THE TIME to save money on paint that quite frankly they don't need to shoot. You just don't see that. Not anywhere around me anyways. I saw one mech woodsball tournament advertised, but they allowed response triggers so what's the point?

I guess what I'm saying is that it's a shame that paintball's great surge over the past few years has the chance of being held down by the fact that it has become a game that costs $600-$2400 to get into and $140-$180 per day to play. You can't just say, "Oh well, pay to play, that's the way it is."...because it didn't USED TO be that way. Paintball 7 years ago certainly had elements of different levels of markers and other equipment...but the bottom guns could still "compete" with the higher guns. Higher end guns were still limited by finger speed and hopper feed rates. Now guns are completely unlimited.

And yes, bonus balling is a problem. :mad: I used to get hit 1-3 times duck down, check myself, call myself out, and maybe on the way out I get hit 1-2 more times. :cuss: Now I get hit 7-10 times before I can even duck down and check and then I get hit another 3-7 times on the way out with my gun above my head. It's just rediculous. :argh:

[C.J.]

I've ranted about "infinity BPS" before so I'll try not to this time.

If you're a pro, you need to have the same gear as the other guys in order to be competitive. You can expect them to have similar skill level, team work, experience etc as you. Your sponsors won't be please to see you handicap yourself by using, say, a pump or pistol on the pro-circuit.

Outside of pro-circles, player attitude will either make for a good or bad day of paintball.

The other weekend, my field welcomed two new kids who just bought their own gear (Spyders, IIRC) and who were still learning.

I played some two-on-one with them and limited the game to "Mexican stand-off" - the middle of the field is "hot lava" and you can't cross over. It's great for practicing snap shooting, AIMING and so forth without worrying about someone running down field and shooting you in the back of the head.

I had a bunch of chances to take both kids out but instead I moved around and took shots at the bunker next to them to remind them I could have hit them if I'd wanted. That game lasted 15 minutes and they loved it, learning a lot in the process. (eventually got them in the masks with single snap shots... no bruises, easy clean-up)

*** *** ***

I shoot a mech' Automag. One shot is enough for me but that hasn't always been the case.

I used to own an SP-8 with a T-Board. That marker was a beast. While I was learning how the play, it was a crutch. I could keep whole teams at bay by spraying a few dozen - or a few hundred - shots across their path.

I'll never forget the game that changed my attitude. I was up against a team of walk ons and I saw a couple of them trying to sneak through a tunnel to the other end of the field. I let the SP-8 rip a string into them. They screamed and raised their hands. I have no idea how many times I hit them but I probably felt worse than they did. I got rid of the SP-8 shortly thereafter and went mech.

WardenWolf on SpecOps (also here, I believe) used to have a sig I liked. It went something like:

"If your opponent doesn't look forward to their next chance to play against you, you've failed in your duty as a paintballer."

I can't think of a more fitting attitude. Make the game fun for everyone.

A final note: I don't think children should be using electros. They act as "enablers" - you're giving an immature mind a tool with the ability to inflict a lot of damage. I used it as a crutch - you can bet they're going to and they're not going to know when to stop.

[Aslan]

"If your opponent doesn't look forward to their next chance to play against you, you've failed in your duty as a paintballer."



Very nice.

Me and my friend played in a big game two weeks ago. The cool thing was that we really had a good time and he started to get really pumped about paintball. Unfortunately, he quickly realized that to really be competitive with most of the other guys out there he needed to upgrade his equipment significantly.

He started saying that he wished there was a place where we could play that was just pumps and that the best time he ever had playing was playing pumps in the 2.5 acre field/woods behind my parents house. If I had a quarter for every time I heard an old timer say something to that effect, I'd be able to afford to help upgrade my buddy's equipment. :cheers: Maybe it's just nostalgia, but when you hear it enough...ya start to wonder why ya keep hearing it. :cheers: