So I’m trying to get this straight...

[MoeMag]

I ask a few people what to get for something that shoots long range. So I hear 30-06 is 100fps faster than 308, Bigger casing, and hear about WWI troops shooting things a mile away blah blah blah.

Me...

I hear 30-06 and think, American classic

I pick up 30-06 round... then hold a 308 up next to it.

Done I get the 30-06. Bigger, Faster, What am I missing?

Better.

So I get out to the range and hit up the long lanes.

Apparently the 308 is a better round?
Not quite as fast, but more accurate?

How? How can a bullet with about the same grain size range (they are both 30 cal bullets) with a lower powder grain be more accurate?

I heard its cause the case is full of powder unlike the 30-06.
-so I shake a 30-06 and hear powder moving around... a lot? Why isn’t the case full or the case match the powder volume...or is that what a 308 is?

I also heard that its something to do with the way the bullet is seated in case or the higher chamber pressure and so on.

In the mean time the 308 had tighter groups than I at 200 yds?

Someone clear this up please.


As far as the others...
If someone has a good case for other rifle rounds like the 223, 300 mag, 300 ultra mag, 7mm or so on I would love to hear your opinions.
EDIT:
Oh yeah a 6.5mm rem mag. The fella next to me had one and wow.

[beam]

If the 308 was being shot by someone else, I'd say they are a better shot than you? So tighter group?

But I'm a shooting n00b, so don't listen to me.

[MoeMag]

If the 308 was being shot by someone else, I'd say they are a better shot than you? So tighter group?

But I'm a shooting n00b, so don't listen to me.

Shooting stand.

[Swampy]

what grain are you firing with the 06 and 308?

[MoeMag]

what grain are you firing with the 06 and 308?

147grain in 30-06
and...
well Im fairly sure the fella said it was the same. I just have a few of the casings. both his and mine were winchester FMJ. Unless he had some of that winchester match 308... that would be a 168 but I doubt thats what he had. I would think the case would be stamped diffrent or something.

I'm pretty noob at this too.

[93civiccpe]

I'll try to sum this all up and anyone more knowledgeable than me (Army and a few others) feel free to correct any of this.

First of all, there is a TON of crap that goes into how accurate a rifle is. One of those factors is the round. Now if both of you had the Exact same rifle just chambered in two different rounds, then you could try to figure out why one round was more accurate than the other.

First of all, you have the trigger. The lighter and crisper the trigger pull, the less likely you are to pull the shot off target. That's why a lot of target shooters have their trigger pulls set less than a pound.. something that is NOT safe for normall hunting, especially if you hunt with a live round in the chamber (which is something I do not personally like).

Second, the action plays a good bit of importance to accuracy. A bolt that has had the face trued is more accurate than a regular bolt. There is a reason why a Sako action alone costs more than a lot of regular firearms. They are meant to be as smooth for loading the round as possible, and then to create the same striking of the round every time to ensure a consistant shot.

Now let's look at the barrel. For really long range shooting, you probably want a bull barrel as they deliver the most consistant pattern typically. A longer barrel typically adds to accuracy, especially if it is matched to the correct twist rate. The twist rate of the bullet defined by the rate of twist of the barrel bore really makes a difference. If your buddy has a competition bull barrel with a twist rate to make his .308 bullet spin at the optimum speed for longer distances, and you are using a stock barrel with your 30-06, that alone will cause tighter groupings.

Now here's a fun area that people love talking about.. Optics. How much are you willing to spend on a scope. A cheap scope on an expensive rifle or an expensive scope on a cheap rifle really isn't a good idea. In the latter case, it really doesn't hurt you but if you put a long range scope on a cheap rifle that can't shoot that far, it's a waste. A lot of cheaper scopes can lose their zero easily. So you think you are shooting at the same spot but your barrel is a little off each time. For my rifle, my scope almost cost me as much as the entire rifle setup did.. but when I got my 10 point buck this past year at 430 yards, it was definitely worth the money. Cheaper optics could easily be a factor in what you are seeing.

Now for the stock. If you are truly looking for long range, you usually have to throw away the factory stock and go with something better. (Yes, some higher end remington 700's already come with H&S precision stocks which are good.. as do other brands). Anyways, if you get a good stock with aluminum pillars and have the barrel bedded, that will add on to your accuracy as well.

Ammunition... that's a big area. Most competition shooters handload their own ammo with a press because measuring powder by hand can be a LOT more accurate than a machine designed to load thousands of rounds an hour for commercial use. Plus, you can find which powder and bullet setup works best for the twist rate of your barrel. Being able to ensure each round has the exact same amount of powder and same bullet should give you a consistant shot, which is what your goal is. If yu get it truly matched to your barrel, then you will see those results and the longer ranges.

Now for some general stuff. When trying to shoot small groupings, you can't fire one round after another quickly. You need to let the barrel cool after each shot if you want it to perform at optimum. If your friend with the .308 is shooting slow, letting his barrel cool, and you are shooting that 30-06 fast heating up your barrel, his pattern should be a lot tighter. Also, if he has a better rest than you are using, which is holding his rifle tighter, that would add to the increased accuracy. If you are both shooting freehand, then maybe his form is better.

There are a TON of variants that can all add up to how accurate and consistant your rifle is. I just thought of another one. If you are shooting a semi-automatic rifle versus a bolt action, you are giving away a good bit of accuracy at long distance right there because of the movement of the bolt to load the next round. I hope if you are looking for long range shooting you are using a bolt action rifle.

As for some general information, most people don't consider 200 yards long range. That's the first thing to decide when you are looking whether or not your current rifle is going to fit your needs. If you are looking to be able to make a good 200 yard shot with that rifle for hunting purposes, then I think you can be happy with a few minor modifications.. have a gunsmith lighten your trigger to 1.5 to 2 pounds, have him glass bed the barrel so it is free floating to start. Then I would use higher quality ammunition and make sure you have good optics on it.

Now if you are trying to competitively shoot out to 500+ yards, then you might want to look at a whole new setup because it will probably be a lot cheaper than trying to upgrade your existant. Army will tell you that Savage makes a nice tactical bolt action rifle with a nice long bull barrel and their Accutrigger system which allows you to adjust the trigger pull, and it's at a very affordable price. I'm a fan of the remington 700 personally, but you can end up with a pretty decent shooter for a good bit less money if you go with one of those savage rifles.

Here are just some of my thoughts on different rounds and etc. If you are shooting 1000 yards or less, I like the .308 Winchester round. A lot of work and research has been done to make it a very consistant round at those distances. That's the calibur I used to make the shot above on the deer. The .30-06 can compete very closely to that if you are willing to put the work into it. Personally, I have found a lot of data out there for the .308 round and have off the shelf match grade ammo that in my rifle will shoot through the same hole at 100 yards, and stays consistant through 500 yards as long as I take a quality shot. As for a "quality shot", there are a lot of factors that go into longer shots in just how you set up your body to prepare for that shot. I'm not going to go into that, but the information is readily available and a lot of it comes through shooting over and over and over.

I saw you alude to the .308 having more powder than a .30-06, and I'm not sure how true that is. A handloader can load whatever he wants (within safe limits) and give you a better idea of what is true. But you have to understand what goes on inside that round. You want a good primer that is going to immediately ignite the gunpowder without delay, and then the gunpowder ignites and the gasses expand and push the bullet out at whatever angle the feedneck of the round determines. I know that altering the angle of the feedneck alone can improve or decrease accuracy... which is why you have rounds such as the 22-250 "AI" (Ackley Improved) which someone figured out a better neck angle to give a better force for more accuracy. That being said, I know the .308 was designed to be an accurate shooter and a lot of this reasearch went into the round.

If you are talking about TRUE long range shooting (1000 yards and more), then in my opinion there are two rounds that really stick out. One of them is the .338 Lapua Magnum which was developed for the sole purpose of being a long range shooter and I like it up to around 1600 yards. (It can go further, but I like it out to about there). If you are looking to go much further than that, you are pretty much talking about a .50 BMG. Not only are you going to be spending thousands on the rifle and hundreds on the rounds, but you are going to need one heck of an expensive piece of optics to shoot that far. On top of that you need wind meters, temperature reading, humidity reading, etc, to plug into a program to determine the drop for the round you are using. Not to mention, I'm sure you'll be put on one of those governement hit lists just for owning one.. =). The two rounds mentioned above are both barrel burners and are known to eat up barrels quite quickly (1500 or so rounds if I recall correctly). Also, the flight time of the bullet is anywhere from 3-7 seconds typically at some of those ranges. So I hope you are just using it to punch holes in stationary paper.

That being said, I don't know that I'll ever own a .338 LM or a .50 BMG. I do not have the desire to spend that much money just to be able to punch holes a piece of paper at that distance. And I would not even want to consider taking a shot at live game at that distance as you would have to lead it a good bit, hope you hit it right, and the chance of just injuring it and having to track it is too high.. especially since it already has a 1000+ yard lead on you. For my money, I will probably stick with the .308 for most of the shooting & hunting I do. If I ever get into bigger game (elk/bear/etc.) I may consider getting something along the lines of a .300 Winchester Magnum.

If you are just looking to shoot paper, or even hunt at the 200-300 yard or closer range, I think you are fine with what you have. Just maybe make a few of the upgrades I suggested and get in a lot of shooting time to increase your own personal ability to hold the shot true. For this, I do not encourage putting a ton of rounds through the barrel of your primary shooter and wearing it's barrel out. I'd suggest one of two things. First, you could get a decent .22 lr rifle which you can get 550 rounds of ammo for it at walmart for 9 dollars and shoot it over and over. Or, (and this is my personal favorite), go to a gunshow and pick up a surplus Russian war rifle called a Mosin Nagant. You will have to do some initial cleaning to get of the cosmolene gunk that they pack it in to prevent rust. But after that, you can get "sardine cans" (the sealed tins or military surplus ammo) of the 7.62 x 54 round that it shoots for around $40-50 for a can of 440 rounds. This round is fun to shoot as it has a lot of kick like that .30-06 of yours and even the surplus crap is accurate. At 100 yards with ironsights I have shot a 3-shot 2 inch grouping. Now that's not super impressive, but for a surplus rifle with surplus ammo I couldn't ask for more. Plus the 1-3 foot flame that comes out of the end of the barrel is just cool. Not to mention, the bolt design of that rifle is far advanced than most of the other bolts from that time period, and the majority of the bolts in modern bolt action rifles actually use design ideas from either the nagant bolt or the mauser bolt.

Nonetheless, if you have any questions for me feel free to pm me or post it here and I'll help with as much as I can, but please know there are a LOT of people more knowledgeable than me, even on this very website. (Those people are welcome to let me know any inaccuracies that may be above, and I'll edit it).

[93civiccpe]

By the way, I do not know of any shot being made by a 30-06 at a mile. That's 1,760 yards.. and I do not believe the .30-06 has any sort of effectiveness at that range. Maybe if the soldier was on a mountain shooting down into a valley, but you are talking about one hell of a shot. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I have never heard about any such claim in my research.

[rmg]

First question, long range for what....target or hunting?
From a hunting point of view, say in the 200 yard range, I would decide between the 308 and 30-06 based on the weight bullet I wanted to use. lighter bullets up to and possibly including 180 grain I would go 308.... 180 grain and heavier, the '06. Typically the twist in th '06 is made with the 180 grain bullet in mind, where the 308 is twisted more toward a 150 grain bullet.

If I remember correctly the 30-06 was originally designed "to kill a man at a thousand yards"
the 308 is based on '06 brass cut down and renecked.

Personally, going beyond 200 yards, I would start leaning toward 7mm sized bullets, better drag coefficient. Only trouble is the heaviest bullet commonly available is 175 grain.

Just plain old target shooting, I would shoot the 308. I know there are some competitions that shoot 30 caliber, most of those guys use the 308. In Europe they prefer the 300 Savage, which ballistically, is very similar to the 308 (a tiny bit slower)

[kruger]

One thing that may not have been mentioned is the different burning powders that you can use. The 30-06 uses a slower burning powder than the 308. Also, you have to be aware of the chamber pressures that you have when firing a round. There are so many recipes for the 308 and the 30-06 out there that use different weights of different burning powders, that you can have a casing that is probably not "full". The commercial ammo is loaded at less than maximum velocity for a given round. This is so that you dont put a new round in an older rifle and have it blow up in your face. Called Litigation control.

[Army]

The .308 is more efficient in its burn rate then the longer '06. Short, fat cases tend to fully burn all the powder, rather than expend a lot of energy pushing un-burnt powder out the barrel. With the same bullet weights, the .308 will simply be more efficient.

The '06 will handle bullets over 180gr better than the .308, due to the lack of powder volume in the smaller case.

Either way, both rounds will cleanly kill any big game animal, and perform satisfactorily out to 1000yds.