PTP going after Brass Eagle

[rabidchihauhau]

Pro-Team is apparently taking Brass Eagle into arbitration over their contract. There's a full article on 68caliber

[Chaos_Theory!]

Post up info here, your post was pretty vague.

[Lenny]

http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story042535.php

There ya go. The story in full.

[RRfireblade]

Well they are JT sports now but . . .

Updated Link :


http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story042535.php

[zipity_Bop]

jt sports deserves it....
plain and simple and I hope PTP takaes a hunge chunk from jt and makes a pneumatic frame available...

[Chronobreak]

im sure rabid or jay dont have any further input on this?

i hope they win and get what deserved, werent contracts or agreements also made with a few other companies or is that a seperate issue?

[rabidchihauhau]

thanks for posting the link fireblade.

from what I understand, this is just the beginning

[Lohman446]

please take this story down immediately - it is copyrighted material

But... But... we're discussing JTs violation of intellectual property and how wrong it is...

:D

[RRfireblade]

im sure rabid or jay dont have any further input on this?

i hope they win and get what deserved, werent contracts or agreements also made with a few other companies or is that a seperate issue?

Bottom line is 'They' made iron clad agreements years ago (that were BTW, heavily in thier favor IMO) and continue to use PTPs resources to date and have in the most basic terms , said they are just not going to pay because they don't think PTP can do anything about it.

This is way more than just Patent stuff , pretty much all areas from R&D to design to consultations on large numbers of stuff , legal issues of many facets ,etc.

At some point you have to stop taking all the beatings and just give all the fight you can , even if your heavily out matched. That's what PTPs is trying to do , win one for the little guys. :shooting:

(Fingers crossed . . . )

[Papa_Smurf]

I'm not picking sides here, but that article seemed very biased to me.

Who was it written by?

[Ninjeff]

interesting. I agree the article does seem a bit biased though.

[SCpoloRicker]

please take this story down immediately - it is copyrighted material


thanks for posting the link fireblade.

from what I understand, this is just the beginning

Uh, aren't these two links the same? Also, that is some terrible, terrible writing from an industry reporting standpoint.

/I may have missed something earlier

[rabidchihauhau]

But... But... we're discussing JTs violation of intellectual property and how wrong it is...

:D

link to it, don't reproduce the whole story. the former is permissible, the latter if infringement.

[rabidchihauhau]

Let's go over it one more time:

the LINK is ok and legal.

COPYING the entire article is copyright INFRINGEMENT.

Since AO complied immediately with a request to remove the offending material, no more needs to be said or done about it.

The article is, I believe NOT an article, but a press release given exclusively ti 68caliber.com

Press Releases by their very nature are BIASED.

I can tell you though that while the tone favored pro-team, all of the facts are accurate.

[rabidchihauhau]

Terrible writing?

Gee, if I had written it, I'd be offended.

[Paintchucker]

I'm not picking sides here, but that article seemed very biased to me.

Who was it written by?


Pro-Team Products and JT Sports going to Arbritration
By Pro-Team Products
Jul 25, 2007, 12:26

[rabidchihauhau]

the article was generated by ptp

[Papa_Smurf]

Thats what I thought. Also,

From the above link:
"PTP succeeded beyond expectations with the development of the MAXIS line. Brass Eagle was so impressed that it additionally contracted with Pro-Team and Mr. Hatcher to license a number of other technologies, including the locking-collet feedneck and the pneumatically assisted trigger system."

Two points,
First wow, they make themselves sound pretty good.....

Second, what does Brass Eagle want a pneumatically assisted trigger system for?


EDIT, is it ok to copy and paste that much?

[Cow123]

please take this story down immediately - it is copyrighted material
Did you seriously report his post because he posted the story on an internet forum for people to read? It's not like he's selling it or something. Wait, do you own the site? Need more advertising revenue from visitors? That's pathetic. Way to bully the little guy.

[Lohman446]

Did you seriously report his post because he posted the story on an internet forum for people to read? It's not like he's selling it or something. Wait, do you own the site? Need more advertising revenue from visitors? That's pathetic. Way to bully the little guy.

I beleive in protecting intellectual property. That statement is either true or not true "little guy" or "big guy" does not matter. It only matters in enforcement.

That being said, it did seem to be a rather biased article. Still does not change some of the facts stated.

[Lee]

Did you seriously report his post because he posted the story on an internet forum for people to read? It's not like he's selling it or something. Wait, do you own the site? Need more advertising revenue from visitors? That's pathetic. Way to bully the little guy.

68 caliber has recently sent out letters and posted on thier site that any copying of material from thier site is considered copyright infringement.

rabid was simply trying to comply with 68 caliber i believe.

[Cow123]

Wow, very similar to smart parts in the actions. Must have the same lawyers.

[rabidchihauhau]

Lee,

you are correct.

additionally, as an author, I am personally sensitive to copyright infringement issues.

And in addition to that, I am a friend of Dale Ford at 68caliber and am privy to the HUGE amount of copyright infringement they have been suffering at the hands of some of their competitors.

I can't provide details for legal reasons, but my request to AO to remove the offending material was made out of a sincere desire to protect AO and to prevent AO AND its members from getting themselves into trouble.

And yes, cow: copyright theft of internet materials DO negatively affect a websites revenue, advertising and traffic. The next time your paycheck is given to someone else, you'll know how it feels.

Papa-smurf, if you are genuinely concerned, you would do yourself a favor by visiting the us copyright website and reading the rules:

there is a concept called 'fair use' which allows people to quote a limited amount of copyrighted material for scholarly purporses, for commentary purposes, demonstration purposes, etc. You did right by citing the source, as that is another requirement.

You can quote one of my paragraphs from above and say "rabid said - (quote) and I think that's a bunch of horse puckey for the following reasons.

Or, you could quote a passage from Pride and Prejudice (giving edition and page number)
in your bookreport to illustrate a key point.

You can quote the headline of an article and provide a link.

What you can't do is reprint the entire thing without permission, and citing the source is no protection. when you do that.

anyone who's REALLY interested, go read the legal review linked to in 68caliber's article on copyright infringement.

[rabidchihauhau]

Cow,

you're obviously engaging in knee-jerk reactions:

PTP isn't suing anyone. PTP isn't preventing anyone from making anything.

PTP is trying to enforce an existing contract - one signed by both parties over two years ago. PTP did everything they were obligated to do under that contract, JT Sports hasn't.

PTP WAITED two years to do anything about it. Now they're going to arbitration - a non-suit based settlement where they try and work things out.

HARDLY a SP cease-and-desist-forthwith-or-else situation.

[Ninjeff]

:rofl:


it IS the internet after all.

[Cow123]

Why are you on an automag owners site? Don't you hate airgun designs for stealing smart parts electronic paintball marker idea? If I were you I would.

Oh, and I was referring to you, not ptp. Good for them, they are using the law for good, not taking advantage of technicalities to shut down people that have done nothing wrong.

[Pzippy]

This is an interesting thread...

[rabidchihauhau]

Cow,

I'm sorry I misunderstood the target of your attack.

ALL law is "technicalities"

Would you want to get sued for making a simple mistake out of ignorance when there was nothing intentionally harmful in your actions? I don't think so.

I don't think anyone would. All I was doing was protecting AO from the possibility of getting sued because one of their users made a mistake.

It was a GOOD thing, whether you want to recognize it or not

[Hexis]

Since AO complied immediately with a request to remove the offending material, no more needs to be said or done about it.


You posting about it is hardly a DMCA notice. You may be amazed at what a lil "please" will do. instead of coming off like a raving lunatic, you put a lil nice please in there and come off as someone trying to help.

[Cow123]

You posting about it is hardly a DMCA notice. You may be amazed at what a lil "please" will do. instead of coming off like a raving lunatic, you put a lil nice please in there and come off as someone trying to help.
That is basically what I am try to say. No need for all these threats when all you have to do is ask.

[Paintchucker]

Actually since the release was by PTP, how can 68caliber copyright it ???


And they spelled arbitration wrong...


:rolleyes:


I found this old press release: http://www.viewloader.com/article.asp?id=282

From back in 2005...

I found the Brass Eagle's President's quote ironic given the current situation...

[SCpoloRicker]

Geez, guys, my question came after the article was pulled.

/understands the need for copyright protection
//Godwin?

[Lohman446]

I didn't see a threat. I saw something to the effect of noting it was copyrighted material and a comment calling for its removal, and its subsequent removal.

[hitech]

... You may be amazed at what a lil "please" will do.


please take this story down immediately - it is copyrighted material

I guess you missed the please...

[RRfireblade]

Actually since the release was by PTP, how can 68caliber copyright it ???


And they spelled arbitration wrong...


:rolleyes:


I found this old press release: http://www.viewloader.com/article.asp?id=282

From back in 2005...

I found the Brass Eagle's President's quote ironic given the current situation...

The loss of Lynn had a lot to do with . . . alot. :ninja:

[rabidchihauhau]

You posting about it is hardly a DMCA notice. You may be amazed at what a lil "please" will do. instead of coming off like a raving lunatic, you put a lil nice please in there and come off as someone trying to help.

I did ask. I should not have to say 'please'. I'm sorry that it offends you. Beemer took care of it right away - maybe I just should have edited out my original request.

68caliber is taking its actions because of a loss of traffic. the longer something stays up where its not supposed to be, 68 loses more traffic.

I'm now stuck in the same situation as pro-team: I can't state the whole story that would justify my actions, so I just have to sit and take it from people like you.

[rabidchihauhau]

they were givern an exclusive opportunity to publicly display the material.

if others want to display it, its a simple matter of asking for permission

[Chronobreak]

sooo...

how bout those pneuframes... :sleeping:

gotta love the copyright derail :tard:


-looks like this is the only release or info i see online so far, diddnt ptp make similar agreements with other companies?

and if so are they taking similar actions against those entities as well? or were those agreements different in some way, or not as in depth as far as working together.

[RRfireblade]

Related to the pnues , it was under the umbrella of BE which covered at that time BE,VL,JT and WGP. The WGP application is/was one step away from production. The BE/VL application stalled somewhere in mid stream and the JT application was in early develpoment.

And the MAG . . . well . . . nevermind that one. :ninja:

[mr doo doo]

wowzers, very interesting...

[Cow123]

Looks like you've admitted what you've done is wrong. In the future avoid using all caps, asking for something when you are just going to get it deleted with threats of legal action, and acting like you are doing it for the good of the community when you are just doing it for your friend's business. That will generally make you look like less of a jerk. Remember, honesty is always better than deception and threats.

Again, thanks for rectifying the situation. That took courage and is very respectable. :)

[rabidchihauhau]

Looks like you've admitted what you've done is wrong. In the future avoid using all caps, asking for something when you are just going to get it deleted with threats of legal action, and acting like you are doing it for the good of the community when you are just doing it for your friend's business. That will generally make you look like less of a jerk. Remember, honesty is always better than deception and threats.

Again, thanks for rectifying the situation. That took courage and is very respectable. :)

Are you trying to make trouble?

I didn't admit that I was wrong with anything.

I took the original post down - not AO.

I was doing it for AO's protection, not my friends.

You want to take this one outside? It looks like your spoiling for something and I don't take kindly to people putting words into my mouth.

Go find some other sand box to play in.

READ what's written and don't substitute your own fantasies for reality.

Sometimes ALL CAPS are used for emphasis and sometimes its necessary to YELL in an idiots face in order to get them to hear anything.

[Lohman446]

Looks like you've admitted what you've done is wrong. In the future avoid using all caps, asking for something when you are just going to get it deleted with threats of legal action, and acting like you are doing it for the good of the community when you are just doing it for your friend's business. That will generally make you look like less of a jerk. Remember, honesty is always better than deception and threats.

Again, thanks for rectifying the situation. That took courage and is very respectable. :)

Where you dropped on your head as a child?

Reprimanding a long standing community member, with great achievements in the sport, who TK has personally sighted as one of the greats in paintball, who has direct experience with the type of issue at hand, and then trying to act like he cared what you said will make you look like an idiot. In the future you might want to try to avoid doing that.

Rabid is more familiar with the situation at hand then you, or I, will ever be. He has connections and expertise that give him insight you do not have. Sometimes you just have to accept that someone may be smarter, and more respected, then you.

[SCpoloRicker]

Beemer took care of it right away - maybe I just should have edited out my original request.

That's shocking.


Are you trying to make trouble?

I didn't admit that I was wrong with anything.

I took the original post down - not AO.

I was doing it for AO's protection, not my friends.

You want to take this one outside? It looks like your spoiling for something and I don't take kindly to people putting words into my mouth.

Go find some other sand box to play in.

READ what's written and don't substitute your own fantasies for reality.

Sometimes ALL CAPS are used for emphasis and sometimes its necessary to YELL in an idiots face in order to get them to hear anything.

I.T.G.

[rabidchihauhau]

Sorry for my failure to understand webspeak. ITG?

Hey, look. This thread is supposed to be about pro-team and jt sports - not about me, not about the pneu-trigger, not about anything else.

The original story was given as an exclusive by PTP to www.68caliber.com. anyone else is welcome to ask 68caliber for permission to reprint it.

One person chose to reprint it here without permission. Knowing what 68caliber is going through with copyright infringement - and not wanting anyone here or at AO to get caught up in anything that might occur as a result of that - I spoke up. AO complied as they ought to and as their policy states.

If some people can't read between the lines, its not my fault.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled show.

[Furby]

Nice having a living legend watching out for you... Thanks Steve.

Really hate having to bring lawyers into the mess, but after spending mega-dollars to buy the site from my former business partner, I felt it necessary to protect it by enforcing my rights to the content of the site.

As for the rest, Forest is a pimp for letting me have the exclusive on this story.

[BigEvil]

Very interesting stuff. I can never understand why people and companies just cannot play nice together.

This is an interesting situation between PTP and JT/BE. I look forward to reading the opposing side's press release on 68 Cal at some point if they ever decide to respond. Seems to me like PTP shouldn't have even had to go to arbitration. But then again, I only know what I read in the article.

[rabidchihauhau]

I don't get it either.

The paintball community (and here I'm probably actually referring to a subset of that community) has a very bizarre relationship with 'rights' and 'ownership'. Maybe a bizarre understanding rather than relationship.

It seems like people aren't supposed to make money off of their inventions and hard work - but at the same time they're expected to produce something new every other day and have it ready for market now-now-now!

It also seems as if insisting that people honor contracts or respect ownership, that the people doing the insisting automatically become the bad guy in the equation.

Man that's really terrible that you got screwed over. What?!? How dare you sue the people who screwed you over!

Its very similar to the person who doesn't hesitate to steal their friends marker, but gets livid and bent out of shape if someone borrows their swab.

It will never make any sense to me.

I believe that there will be an interview with PTP folks in the near future. I can't say what's happening over on the other side.

[iambored]

wait, so if ptp is going after brass eagle doesn't that mean they're taking on J2? which is a huge company

[Chronobreak]

wait, so if ptp is going after brass eagle doesn't that mean they're taking on J2? which is a huge company

well it seems their agreements with other companies under the k2 empire are going as agreed or within reason. looks like BE is the only division of k2 that took advantage of the situation.

[RRfireblade]

well it seems their agreements with other companies under the k2 empire are going as agreed or within reason. looks like BE is the only division of k2 that took advantage of the situation.

Thier whole PB 'empire' is/was run thru BE management regardless of who was acting on the agreements.

[going_home]

http://www.68caliber.com/story042546.php

[MedicDVG]

In other words, "Gee we sure look stupid for letting this company go public with our dirty laundry".....


I guess the squeaky wheel does get the grease....

Now it will be interesting to see what "resolution" comes of this whole scenario.

[BigEvil]

Just remember that there are two sides to every story. PTP just made theirs public first. Usually, a lawyer tells their client to shut the hell up regarding matters in litigation. Since the internet is not the proper place to debate facts, the statement by PTP is just a PR move. Since BE is now aware of it, expect a carefully worded counter-statement from them in the near future. Then in the coming months the announcement of their settlement which will be vauge and point no blame towards either party.

[RRfireblade]

Just remember that there are two sides to every story. PTP just made theirs public first. Usually, a lawyer tells their client to shut the hell up regarding matters in litigation. Since the internet is not the proper place to debate facts, the statement by PTP is just a PR move.

Act of near desperation , to be more precise. This situation has been going on for years now. All other options have been exhausted besides the expending of huge amount of $$ on legal action.


Imagine your employer , from who the bulk of your income depends heavily on and who you had devoted the bulk of your primary resources to (neglecting many other income options due to the long term agreements made) . . .

just stops giving you your paycheck . . .

for years. :ninja:

Wadda you do 'besides' putting everything you own up to try cover a legal battle ?

[BigEvil]

Act of near desperation , to be more precise. This situation has been going on for years now. All other options have been exhausted besides the expending of huge amount of $$ on legal action.


Imagine your employer , from who the bulk of your income depends heavily on and who you had devoted the bulk of your primary resources to (neglecting many other income options due to the long term agreements made) . . .

just stops giving you your paycheck . . .

for years. :ninja:

Wadda you do 'besides' putting everything you own up to try cover a legal battle ?


Dude, the SECOND my employer stops paying me I stop doing work for them and look for another job.

Unfortunately, PTP is going to have to fight that legal battle.

[RRfireblade]

Dude, the SECOND my employer stops paying me I stop doing work for them and look for another job.

Unfortunately, PTP is going to have to fight that legal battle.



Personally . . .







Yea, I'm right there wit ya. ;)

But sometimes your looking/hoping for the potential in a much bigger picture . . . but then things don't go the way you thought. :confused:

[BigEvil]

Personally . . .







Yea, I'm right there wit ya. ;)

But sometimes your looking/hoping for the potential in a much bigger picture . . . but then things don't go the way you thought. :confused:


Well, any company I have worked for, either as a purchaser or supplier cant get away without paying their bills for very long. 30 days, pay your bill or else.. and 'else' all depends on how often previously they didnt pay on time.


Im sorry PTP is in the situation they are in, but I guess they must have saw this coming now for a while.

[RRfireblade]

Well , you know , you have a business relationship with someone for a long while and everything runs good so you get yourself in deeper. Sounds reasonable , they are a MUCH bigger company taking alot interest in your tiny family business . . . looking for growth . . . big time 'future' stuff , you can imagine. Sounds like everyones dream situation. Then some things start to change , slowly at first . . . people you have strong ties to leave or get let go , management changes , whole companies get bought out . . . but you hang in there for the dust to settle thinking , hoping . . . that when it does the big picture is still visable in thru the fog. At least thats the talk you keep hearing. In the end. . . sometimes it is , sometimes not so much. Sometimes it's a whole different view just depending on where you are standing. ;) By then a lot of time and effort has passed.

Sometimes you just don't fully realize how deep you got . . . sometimes you do but are still hoping for the sun to be shining after the storm.

Sometimes you just end up standing in a big ugly mud puddle , trying to figure how you got there so fast. :)

[peewee]

:D maybe I'm an oldtimer(I think some of the younger bucks around here should search & learn what all went down in the past)... But All I can say to PTP is get U some!! I really hoped for the best when they put so much of their resorces & time into the JT. I hope that they can get whats owed & maybe get some rights to get stuff released as a private interest. HINT, HINT I be wantin a pneuframe!!! :shooting:

[Lohman446]

Well, any company I have worked for, either as a purchaser or supplier cant get away without paying their bills for very long. 30 days, pay your bill or else.. and 'else' all depends on how often previously they didnt pay on time.


Im sorry PTP is in the situation they are in, but I guess they must have saw this coming now for a while.


Yes and know. I am certain that any contract between the two companies was not one sided. Hunting different purchasers may have put PTP in violation of said contract and totally nullified any gains they expected from it. Obviusly I'm not involved and don't have all the information but I am almost certain it was not as easy as "looking for a new job" if one wants to continue that analogy.

[Foxworthy]

The whole copywrite thing doesn't hold water. Sure you can copywrite it but as it's a news article it can't be enforced since it falls under fair use.


§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use


Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall

You'll notice that reproduction for news reporting is not an infringement. Sure you could argue that reproducing the whole thing is a problem (number 3 above) but it is a press release it is intended to be released, it's free to read would make it rather obvious that reprinting it falls under fair use as long as you give credit to the source.

It's also weird that the article has a copyright from 1997-2007. Or how they have a copyright for an article they did not even write. It seems like 68calibur wants to try to force everyone to go there for their news.

[Lohman446]

The whole copywrite thing doesn't hold water. Sure you can copywrite it but as it's a news article it can't be enforced since it falls under fair use.



You'll notice that reproduction for news reporting is not an infringement. Sure you could argue that reproducing the whole thing is a problem (number 3 above) but it is a press release it is intended to be released, it's free to read would make it rather obvious that reprinting it falls under fair use as long as you give credit to the source.

It's also weird that the article has a copyright from 1997-2007. Or how they have a copyright for an article they did not even write. It seems like 68calibur wants to try to force everyone to go there for their news.

The AP routinely copywrites, and enforces said on news articles. Its not abnormal for an organization to hold a copywrite for someone else. If PTP states its intent was to release it only to 68c caliper you would have a hard time making a convincing argument of other intent.

[Foxworthy]

The AP routinely copywrites, and enforces said on news articles. Its not abnormal for an organization to hold a copywrite for someone else. If PTP states its intent was to release it only to 68c caliper you would have a hard time making a convincing argument of other intent.

I haven't seen one press release with a copyright. I've seen the AP articles have a copyright.

Here's another problem with 68 calibers copyrights. They haven't registered their copyrights which means that they can't even get court fees if the sued. All they could get are actual damages. This on top the fact that they have to prove that PTP legally transfered the rights to 68 caliber.

AP copyrights their articles cause they charge for people to reproduce them. They can prove what the actual damage from a stolen article is. All 68 can do is say claim that a certain number of people didn't go to their site, but if the source if mentioned then they can't even prove that.

Not only that when you post copyright dates you post it for the date that the item was created not ten years in the past. I'm sure lying about copyright dates won't go over very well.

Edit: Also nothing on 68 caliber's terms of use don't even mention their stance on reproduction. That maybe because they don't have term of use but still. They aren't on stable legal ground. They have to prove fair use wrong, prove that even though they are a free site they lost money and the actual amounts and then pay for court cost. I understand they want traffic but being dicks about it is wrong.

[RRfireblade]

Don't think it was really "Press Release" , it was an article submitted specifically to 68Caliber for their exclusive use.

[RogueFactor]

Let's go over it one more time:

the LINK is ok and legal.

COPYING the entire article is copyright INFRINGEMENT.

Since AO complied immediately with a request to remove the offending material, no more needs to be said or done about it.

The article is, I believe NOT an article, but a press release given exclusively ti 68caliber.com

Press Releases by their very nature are BIASED.

I can tell you though that while the tone favored pro-team, all of the facts are accurate.

From page 1 of this thread. rabichihauhau states it is a press release. Given his past and/or current relationship to both PTP & 68caliber.com, one would consider it true---whether it was a 'belief' or not.

[RRfireblade]

From page 1 of this thread. rabichihauhau states it is a press release.

Well there you go then. :) Written more like an article tho. ;)

[Foxworthy]

Actually press releases are typically written with a bias as well. Here's the quote from wikipedia for what that's worth.


A press release is different from a news article. A news article is a compilation of facts developed by journalists published in the news media, whereas a press release is designed to be sent to journalists in order to encourage them to develop articles on the subject. A press release is generally biased towards the objectives of the author.

[RRfireblade]

What I meant was a Press Release is 'usually' more of an announcement or statement or something along those lines to generate overall interest or follow up as opposed to a single highly detailled story.

Just my opinion , no need to search the internet for a contradicting opinion. :)

[Foxworthy]

I apologizes I thought you meant the bias in the article. Though the press release did read as a detailed as some press releases I've read in the past, but it was far more detailed than the usual Internet only type press release.

[RogueFactor]

Well there you go then. :) Written more like an article tho. ;)

You think so? I find that Press Releases are usually more biased/one-sided than articles. Which is why I took rabichihauhau's statement at face value, since it seemed to be more of a press release from how it was written, and who it was written by.

[Lohman446]

Whatever you have all beleived it to be it was published in a publication and is probably protected. Copying it, verbatim in its entirety, is not likely covered under the "fair use" act.

[Foxworthy]

Of course 68caliber themselves steal articles and claim copyrights on them.

Here is a NPPL release on their page

http://www.nppl.tv/site/articles/251/1/San-Diego-to-host-NPPL-Event-%235%21

Here it is on 68

http://www.68caliber.com/news/tournament/nppl/story042543.php

notice the copyright at the bottom.


It be nice if they took the copyright off pages they didn't create.

[RRfireblade]

You think so? I find that Press Releases are usually more biased/one-sided than articles. Which is why I took rabichihauhau's statement at face value, since it seemed to be more of a press release from how it was written, and who it was written by.

Wasn't talking about bias, ;) Anything put out by any one side is going to be biased of course. :)

[rabidchihauhau]

Foxworthy,

you're understanding of copyright and what you are reading on that site is obviously skewed.

First of all, YOU DO NOT NEET TO PUT THE COPYRIGHT NOTICE ON A WORK IN ORDER TO HAVE RIGHTS TO THE WORK.

The mere act of creation now confers copyright. Period.

Second - items that appear on 68Caliber with a copyright notice from another entity were printed with permission - those are not copyright violations but proper usage.

Third - as was said before - the PTP press release was given to 68Caliber AS AN EXCLUSIVE. PTP owns the copyright and gave 68Caliber permission to run it - as well as the right to decide who else can run it.

Whether 68Caliber REGISTERS their copyrights with the Feds or not does not diminish their rights in any way - with the exception that if they sue, they can not claim statutory damages. It doesn't mean they can't sue, it doesn't mean they can't enforce and it doesn't mean they can't stop others from reprinting their material.

Finally - you don't know how to read the fair use doctrine so I wou;dn't rely on your interpretation of it; as someone pointed out, AP copyrights all of their stories and enforces their copyright. Why in the hell would another news service PAY them for a story if it were free?

Get off the issue. There were good reasons for the requested withdrawal of copyrighted material from automags - PROOF is to be found in their immediate compliance. You don't see them complaining, do you?

Go ride your hobby horse somewhere else.

[Beemer]

This thread is not about copyrights.

The issue was taken care of so drop it already. Dont copy and paste unless you have permission. Use a link. Plain and simple. Thanks for the heads up Rabid.

Any more off topic posts will be removed. Carry on.

[Foxworthy]

This thread is not about copyrights.

The issue was taken care of so drop it already. Dont copy and paste unless you have permission. Use a link. Plain and simple. Thanks for the heads up Rabid.

Any more off topic posts will be removed. Carry on.

Sorry, please delete my last post. I was typing it up before you posted and didn't see it. Sorry.

[Chronobreak]

im curious to see how this all settles out.

it seems like legalities are being exchanged between nearly every paintball company these days.

alot of people are gonna be surprised what the sport is like in 08, well those that have been around for a while.

[rabidchihauhau]

???

are you suggesting you know something or are you saying that folks will be surprised at where it goes in general?

Litigation in business is a common thing - most folks don't get to see a tenth of it publicly.

Consider that there are entire legal firms who's business is arbitrating disputes between companies, others who's business is handling business licensing issues.

Part of the issue is a general cultural bias AGAINST lawyers and things legal. We've been conditioned to think of lawyers as money-grubbing trouble makers and if you have to resort to a law suit, there must be something wrong with you, your business, etc.

In reality, the courts were established for the purpose of having a supposedly impartial third-party resolve differences that couldn't be handled in any other way.

Look at contracts; doing business on trust and a handshake is admirable and honorable and desireable. But what happens when unanticipated issues arise and the handshaking parties disagree on how to interpret them?

You both could go ask 'Bob', but its likely that one of you will not like Bob's decisions...

What are you supposed to do when someone signs a contract and then doesn't honor it? Say oh well and walk away from money, hard work, etc? Its like having a brother or sister who borrows money and then refuses to pay it back. Eventually you either have to beat them up or go to mom and dad...

[Chronobreak]

???

are you suggesting you know something or are you saying that folks will be surprised at where it goes in general?

Litigation in business is a common thing - most folks don't get to see a tenth of it publicly.

...

possibly both?

look at the changes in the last year or two alone, its not hard to figure out or notice paintball has left the hands of the people who care about it and is now in the hands of those that would rather have you buy your halo, paint, and air at wal-mart isntead of the local proshop thats been supporting the local community for years.

Its also a weird thing you mention that, i think its odd that in paintball lawsuits and litigations are often made public and sometimes to try and make a company appear evil, or more evil than they really are.

as per BE and PTP, i dont know anything in particular other than what has been said publicly for the most part. So im just waiting to see what happens, if anything like everyone else.

[edweird]

ugh, it makes me sick that the biggest news in paintball revolves around happenings in court rooms.

I can see the future of TK advice threads:

Q: "how do I become successful in the paintball industry?"
A: "study patent and intellectual property law kiddo."

[rabidchihauhau]

chrono,

ok. I don't see any big changes coming other than the continuation of the downward spiral of the industry. The big investment firms obviously have no interest in self-promoting their products. It will become yet another 'dead' sport; kids will get their parents to buy them cheap gear for the holidays, they'll play for a short while and then move on to the next fad.

fields and stores devoted to paintball will continue to erode.

if anything survives big time, it will be scenario ball - but that will only continue so long as 'war' is a part of our everyday. the minute that we pull out of Iraq, its going to become a 'bad' thing to play army in the woods once more. there will come the inevitable backlash against all things military. if you collect GI Joes, you better get your stuff now...

anyone seen any big sponsorship deals since Ollie Langs? nope... wonder if he's going to get renewed...?

edweird - you react to that like its a bad thing. its not. its fundamental to business that you know and understand the legal landscape. its only when you don't that you feel victimized by it. It is literally just like knowing the rules for playing. if you don't know that splatter doesn't count, you're going to feel ripped off on the field when that guy isn't out.

good paintball companies MUST innovate and IP is an essential part of that. The landscape itself is not bad - its how people/companies use it that makes that determination and, when it comes right down to it, the job of a company is to maximize its return and take every advantage that it can from the marketplace. Again, like knowing the rules. If the rules say hits don't count unless the ref calls you, teams that leave the field with no ref check are handicapping themselves. The other team is not cheating when it plays by the rules. The way to get a handle on that kind of situation is to be involved with the rules writing (law) or to have someone read the rules, analyze them, and then advise you on what it means (lawyers).

[edweird]

of course I react like it is a bad thing. If corp's like SP, and PTP put their creative efforts into putting products on the market as hard as they work on keeping lawyers in the courtroom defending their IP, I wouldnt give a damn.

product R&D and subsequent release is taking a backdoor to protecting IP. And frankly that is a shame.

/sadly I think the money is in the IP suits, rather than development.

[RogueFactor]

rabidchihauhau:

Speaking of litigation...

How did things ever end up turning out with Richmond Italia, and your legal proceedings regarding your patent #6,251,033 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=3&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=6,251,033&OS=6,251,033&RS=6,251,033) ?

Were you successful? Will we be seeing an exclusive 68caliber.com announcement regarding your patent and these proceedings soon?

[rabidchihauhau]

Rogue,

as much as I'd like to say yes, the answer is no. I was unable to pursue it for lack of funds.

They're version of it is dying anyways as it was designed to maximize profit as opposed to creating a sport...

Edweird.

Look at what you're saying

"If corp's like SP, and PTP put their creative efforts into putting products on the market as hard as they work on keeping lawyers in the courtroom defending their IP..."

IP IS the creative effort. You get money for your creative effort(s) by marketing and selling it. If you do not have the control(s) offered by IP, you make no sales, because others have copied and sell it for less.

Very very simple: if a design company can't make back their investment and then some, they stop designing new stuff...

What you said was the functional equivalent of: if retailers put their efforts into selling product instead of going after shoplifters, they'd have more product on the shelves to sell..."

[Lohman446]

Paintball is not altruistic - saving the world, some child, whatever is not a goal of design.

You introduce new products because you A) Love the game or B) see it as profitable. At one point those who released products loved the game (yes, they were still able to see profit). The goal was not maximizing profits.

We whined... we wanted big business.... we wanted cheaper paint, bigger tournaments, more money. We followed the promises of it.

We got it. Now companies design for profitability. Protecting IP becomes vitally important when trying to maximize profit. Without it there cannot be (in a money driven sport) nearly as much R&D. We got what we wanted... and the grass is greener on the other side.

[rabidchihauhau]

One reason why folks in paintball see more litigation going on is because the press is one inexpensive way for the small company to exert pressure on the big company. Large companies that have an image to maintain and who rely on their reputation(s) to keep doing business with other large companies do not like having their dirty laundry aired in public - especially when they are on the wrong side of the litigation equation.

Such things make other suppliers and purchasers wonder if they are going to be treated the same way; make them wonder if their checks are going to cash, if the product they ordered is going to arrive on time, if its going to be quality or some sub-standard crap; when it comes to contract negotions, if a company has a history of not honoring contracts, it makes it difficult for them to get others to agree to enter into a contractual agreement - or they end up having to negotiate less favorable terms because of what others have heard about them.

Of course, the smartest way to deal with such things is to take your lumps and correct the problem...

[Chronobreak]

[QUOTE=rabidchihauhau]chrono,

ok. I don't see any big changes coming other than the continuation of the downward spiral of the industry. The big investment firms obviously have no interest in self-promoting their products. It will become yet another 'dead' sport; kids will get their parents to buy them cheap gear for the holidays, they'll play for a short while and then move on to the next fad.

fields and stores devoted to paintball will continue to erode.

if anything survives big time, it will be scenario ball - but that will only continue so long as 'war' is a part of our everyday. the minute that we pull out of Iraq, its going to become a 'bad' thing to play army in the woods once more. there will come the inevitable backlash against all things military. if you collect GI Joes, you better get your stuff now...

anyone seen any big sponsorship deals since Ollie Langs? nope... wonder if he's going to get renewed...?

/[QUOTE]

ide consider the increased rate of decline in the sport pretty big news, the high end marker market also doesnt or wont translate well to the mass market wal-mart type dsitribution system very well or at all if you ask me

i guess time will tell, but if you ask me the sprot ahs turned for the worse in an irreversible way. Sad to say alot of players ,field owners, and shop owners(those that are left) wont see it coming

i guess thats a convo for a seprate topic though.

[nathanjones008]

we are going to be in iraq for a while.

[billmi]

Let's go over it one more time:

the LINK is ok and legal.

COPYING the entire article is copyright INFRINGEMENT.



No, it's just copying an article without the owner's permission that is infringement.

Not too long ago, a user on WARPIG.com pulled and posted a full article from 68caliber.com. Being a respector of copyright, I deleted the post, and left the follow-up post that provided a link to the article.

The user who posted said that it was with permission, and that Dale Ford (owner of 68 Caliber.com) allows reposting of full articles, so long as 68caliber.com is credited as the source. Dale Ford confirmed to my by e-mail that this is indeed his policy.

[rabidchihauhau]

Billmi,

my statement remains valid as within the context of discussion it was clear that we were talking about permission.

In regards to 68caliber and permissions - you did the right thing, but that incident took place quite some time ago and general policy has changed at 68caliber; many articles from the site are reprinted, but its with permission - there's no blanket grant to do so.

1. ask permission
2. if its granted, credit 68caliber
3. if not, put up a headline and link to the site

pretty simple if you ask me.

In regards to IP fights breaking out all over, check out this NYTimes story: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/09/business/09cross.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Johnson & Johnson is suing the Red Cross over their use of the red cross...

[Furby]

No, it's just copying an article without the owner's permission that is infringement.

Not too long ago, a user on WARPIG.com pulled and posted a full article from 68caliber.com. Being a respector of copyright, I deleted the post, and left the follow-up post that provided a link to the article.

The user who posted said that it was with permission, and that Dale Ford (owner of 68 Caliber.com) allows reposting of full articles, so long as 68caliber.com is credited as the source. Dale Ford confirmed to my by e-mail that this is indeed his policy.

I remember that little brew up...I remember the overly patronizing response from you as well...live and learn, eh?

Davidson is right...as I've gone along learning the business and legal side of running a site, my previous policy of not especially caring where my stuff ended up has changed. As a result, I've been called the "Smart Parts of the Paintball Media", been added to the swear filter of an inferior forums site that fancies themselves as news mavens, and worse.

But the traffic on the site has taken a very nice upswing, since enacting this policy and enforcing it, which makes my paying advertisers happy.

[Beemer]

Looks like post #14


Let's go over it one more time:

the LINK is ok and legal.

COPYING the entire article is copyright INFRINGEMENT.



Post #90


No, it's just copying an article without the owner's permission that is infringement.

Not too long ago, a user on WARPIG.com pulled and posted a full article from 68caliber.com. Being a respector of copyright, I deleted the post, and left the follow-up post that provided a link to the article.

The user who posted said that it was with permission, and that Dale Ford (owner of 68 Caliber.com) allows reposting of full articles, so long as 68caliber.com is credited as the source. Dale Ford confirmed to my by e-mail that this is indeed his policy.


Post #76


This thread is not about copyrights.

The issue was taken care of so drop it already. Dont copy and paste unless you have permission. Use a link. Plain and simple. Thanks for the heads up Rabid.

Any more off topic posts will be removed. Carry on.

What was this thread about again? Any new news?

[Furby]

JT Sports (who were just bought out with K2 by Jarden) responded to that PR and I put it up, and as far as I know nothing is going on that I can see, but the arbitration is not part of any sort of legal records I can look up, so until one or the other makes a public statement, we'll have to wait.

[rabidchihauhau]

Yes, as a matter of fact, the "moderators" at PBNation have seen fit to take down a thread on the same subject with no explanation whatsoever.

I wonder if it has anything to do with any connections they might have to JT Sports?

[manike]

Yes, as a matter of fact, the "moderators" at PBNation have seen fit to take down a thread on the same subject with no explanation whatsoever.

I wonder if it has anything to do with any connections they might have to JT Sports?

Not in the slightest.

It's to do with the fact that everyone kept copying in Dale's copyright material and it was impossible to stop them.

To respect Dale's wishes and to protect his copyright the thread was removed.

Simply really. No conspiracy theory needed.

[rabidchihauhau]

this thread is no longer about copyright, but Manike - there was no copyrighted material in that thread on PBN and PBN is not just "respecting Dale's wishes" - talk about putting a fox news spin on things; they deliberately interpreted a request to remove copyrighted material into one to not allow any links to 68caliber at all and put the name of the website back into their swear filter.

You may not be aware of that - but anyone who spends half a second on PBN is.

Don't be an apologist for people who are acting like babies because they can't have 100% of the paintball traffic on the web.

[manike]

Steve, you're the one that continued this with your crazy conspiracy theory.

You are welcome to call me a liar, although I don't appreciate it.

I'm looking at the thread right now. Post number 8, by pa1ntball 56 is very clearly copied directly from 68caliber. Please feel free to contact that individual and check before you call me a liar again.

I am very familiar with the whole issue thank you very much.

If PTP, and I speak to Forest regularly, would like to send a press release to PBN, I will make sure it gets the attention it deserves.

[rabidchihauhau]

that post was removed and the remainder of the thread stayed up there, until taken down yesterday sometime.

What about the other things I mentioned?

[skipdogg]

stop already - take it to PM's, or out back or something.

[Furby]

Jeez...this keeps on I'll end up inheriting Steve's "Most Dangerous Man In Paintball" title I gave him a few years ago...

Funniest thing is, just for S&G's I checked my web traffic after you-know-who put 68 back in the swear filter and oddly enough, it was spiking upwards again. I guess all the lazyasses were going to the site to get the news.

In the meantime, I wish PTP and JT Sports Godspeed and good luck in resolving their differences.

[Beemer]

Hmm, make note to retract post #76 and #93

I did find it odd when I posted this linky http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story042535.php

On PBN it showed up as this


http://www.*********.com/news/industry/story042535.php

Around here thats activating the filter and is a no no, so I chose to delete it, Faaaaaaast.
Then again around here you can feel free to post any links to PaintBall sites with out activating the filter.

[rabidchihauhau]

Well, different people have different rules because they're trying to accomplish different goals; like 68caliber took down their forum because it wasn't being conducive to a discussion of the news, and AO let's everyone post whatever they want as long as they're civil - you know, the free flow and exchange of ideas and opinions, and some folks censor stuff because it doesn't fit their world view.

For those interested in discussing copyrights and other IP related matters, I'm starting a new thread on that subject here in paintball talk.

I'm going to ask the assistance of the moderators and participants in keeping it on track and based on the current law and the current facts, as opposed to speculation on things legal based on a lack of a law degree...

If you're interested, please join me over there.