Need help settling an issue.

[luke]

I did some work for a local here on AO earlier this month. Turned the work around in my normal 24 hour time schedule. I sent the package Priority Mail with delivery confirmation, the tracking number states the package was delivered and was on time.

My customer contacted me a short time after the scheduled delivery saying the package didn't arrive. All the necessary phone calls and inquires have been made for the "lost package", all results say the package was delivered.

Now there is no reason for me to believe he is lying. We've done quite a bit of business in the past and have never had a problem. He comes across as a stand up guy here on the board and has never done or said anything here to make me believe anything different.

I did some custom milling to a rail and ULE body totaling $85 and he purchased 2 SS rams, the total bill with shipping was $99. The following is part of a PM I received today.
"Now, what it I think is reasonable is that if I provide the parts again, you machine them at no cost to me. I feel that this is actually more then reasonable after all I will have spend around $400 at that point and you only the labor for a second run (I paid for the first one). Oh yeah, I also ordered and paid for 2 mpa-3 rams, you only sent one." (I send him a "free" ram)

I really don't know where to stand on the matter. My time is a commodity to me these days, as I'm extremely busy at work, with Lukes Customs, and not to mention my personal life. I don't know of any company that will replace a package that an independent carrier loses, damages, or miss delivers. (I'm not saying their not out there, I'm just unaware of any). I have always said I will take responsibility for parts I damage but I'm not sure if it's fair to be held partly responsible for his loss, especially since their is confirmation that it was delivered. That's not to say I don't have empathy for him, because all in all it is a big loss.

This is the only problem I have ever encountered with the Post Office that has not been straightened out. So I would rather not turn this into a debate about carriers.

Regardless of how I finally choose to handle this incident, Lukes Customs will take the stand that it is NOT responsible for 3rd party mistakes. I don't want anyone taking advantage of my good nature. :D

SO, what do you guys and gals think would be fair given the situation?

[Lohman446]

You are not responsible for shipping errors not of your fault (that being said I think all prices should include insured shipping to handle such issues, insurance should not be an option).

People expect a lot of small businesses, you don't have the resources to cover "goodwill", nor is it built into your price structure. You are probably not obligated to. That being said... I would offer what I could.

[luke]

I may consider doing the mandatory insurance...

[Dark Side]

Insurance doesn't cover anything after a package has been delivered. Having to sign for the package however.....

[Lohman446]

I thought you had to sign with USPS insurance.

[Hexis]

Perhaps I'm mis-understanding something here. How does he say you only sent one ram if he never got the package?

[warbeak2099]

Maybe he is actually lying? He can't prove that he isn't.

[luke]

Perhaps I'm mis-understanding something here. How does he say you only sent one ram if he never got the package?

He purchased 2 rams that was sent in the first package, then I sent him a 3rd ram a few days ago free of charge..

[luke]

What do you guys think from a customers point of view?

[trevorjk]

as a smart customer, i would have opted for the signature confirmation upon delivery.

but in this case, i would realize im screwed. i would ask and see if i could send in a new rail and body to see if you could possibly mill them free of charge. but i would not ask for free parts. and if you said no on the free milling of the rail. i would totally understand.

but thats just me. i realize if its delivered and its not here. im screwed

[olinar]

as a customer i would feel cheated but not by the person i bought it from especially if deliver confirmation stated that the package had arrived.

maybe he should ask his neighbors if thyd seen a package dropped off.

ive had things i bought lost in the mail and while it isnt the sellers fault i would love a refund on atleast half.

but that isnt required

[robnix]

What do you guys think from a customers point of view?

Each time we've had dealings, you've used the address I specified in my Paypal account for shipment. I've never seen you not use paypal to generate the shipping label. Since that's the case, if this would have happened to me I'd be angry with the USPS not you.

[Rudz]

i had a similar dealing, the usps confirmed delivery, but i didnt have my package nor ever saw it, after a few weeks, me and the seller were going to split the cost, and i was to recieve half of my payment back, but as it turns out we waited a bit more, and i found my package in the trunk of my dad's car, apparently he signed for it and forgot that he put it in his car while he was cleaning it..yes hes getting old..but whose to say it wasnt delivered and either someone else picked it up or it was misplaced, i would ask nieghbors if someone else accidently got it. bottom line is, if the confirmation is made, its not your fault, but i would return half of the price of labor, if the parts are not found.

[SCpoloRicker]

.


ill hurt u lyrically....ill hurt u fysically...

Kidding buddy. ;)

It seems like a lot of the time these issues come up, they are resolved by waiting it out a bit. Hopefully everything will work out.

That said, I'll disagree with some of the previous comments. Provided you aren't liable, I would not say you're obligated to return any funds or provide compensation to a confirmed delivey. I have worked with vendors and/or clients who will take advantage of goodwill.

Now, as a customer, if you did hook me up somehow, it would be very much appreciated, and would probably increase my likelihood to do business with you again.

[teufelhunden]

Few possibilities:

Guy is lying.
Package was delivered and picked up by someone good natured who has yet to hand it off.
Package was delivered and stolen.


None of those are your liability. As someone mentioned, shipping insurance stops when the package is delivered, so that would not have made a difference here. Sucks for this dude, but as far as I'm concerned, you did your job on your end. And you hooked him up with a free part no less.

[AirAssault]

It sucks for the consumer in this situation but you did the work, sent the product, it is out of your hands. The guy needs to eat it, you owe him nothing. Now, if I was on the other end I would be pissed but if you can verify it was "sent" then game over. Sorry to the guy who may be reading this, Luke owes you nadda, nill, zilch, goose egg, zero!!

Now that being said, doing the mill work for parts he provides would be a cool thing to do. If he is lying to you he will get his, karma is funny like that.

[zipity_Bop]

I'm saying, if i was the guy on the other end I wouldn't automatically expect reimbursement but it would be appreciated. That being said maybe you can work a deal out with him and do a half off or something...... that way he's not totally at a lost and you get some compensation for the extra work.... and besides after he sees this thread he's going to jump all over the half off thinking it's better than nothing.

[luke]

Thanks for all the in put guys. I'm still undecided how I'm going to handle it. :(

[AirAssault]

Thanks for all the in put guys. I'm still undecided how I'm going to handle it. :(

Time is money, you owe him nothing. Sorry guy, it happens.

[RogueFactor]

The USPS can really suck, but moreso you have to ask yourself how much this customers business is worth to you? And/or any business they may end up sending your way?

My opinion...shipping a package is the shippers responsbility. Once its receieved, is the recipients responsibility. Now this assumes a 'clean' receipt, meaning they actually received it. Ive had the USPS show a package as delivered, when it really wasnt. It wasnt the standard carrier that day, and I had to call the Post Office and track it all down. What a pain in the butt.

To keep this sort of thing from happening to my customers, packages either need to be signed for or insured, so that both of us are covered should the USPS screw up. I always suggest every business do this to cover themselves. If your in business to make money(and most are), you have to cover yourself. Occasionally, even that doesnt guarantee 100% success...

Recently, I had a package show up to the customer late, and empty. Note on the box from the USPS stating it was empty. Signature required, but not insured. Wasnt my fault, wasnt the customers either. But I covered the cost of replacing the parts.

In your case, he isnt even asking for you to cover the cost of the replacement parts, only your labor. Which sounds completely fair.

At the end of the day, the customer didnt do anything wrong. But is willing to accept some of the responsibility...thats a VERY understanding customer. I dont run into many like that anymore.

My $.02.

[RogueFactor]

Time is money, you owe him nothing. Sorry guy, it happens.

Noted. If you purchase an item from me and it doesnt show up, you wont expect reimbursement of your parts. Good to know. ;)

[Muzikman]

I had a similar problem with a $500+ order from POR-15 (the rust proof paint company). They shipped the package via UPS. UPS showed it was delivered. I never got it. They sent me new product, no questions asked and said they would take it up with UPS. Now that is a standup company and I have since made a number of similarly priced orders from them. If they would have told me to take a hike, that it wasn't their problem or that I would have to fight with UPS to find the package or get my money back, I probably wouldn't be using their product right now.

[Tunaman]

Packages that are of little valve...(50.00 or less) I usually just ship with Delivery confirmation. Packages of High Value i will be sure to ask the customer if insurance is wanted and how much. If a guy sends me his Xmag, he would have to pay around 12-15.00 insurance Plus shipping costs...which starts to run into alot of money(USPS). I will ship most customer markers back with a Signature Confirmation, and they always get there that way. I am very lucky to have never lost a package yet...
We also use Stamps.com for shipping labels and their insurance is a little cheaper, and will settle a claim in 7 days. Sorry to hear you lost a package, but if you have a delivery confirmation(which you pay extra for) then it is all on the Post Office to find out where that package is. The buyer takes the risk if he declines insurance.

[punkncat]

As has been said and is clear, this situation is not your responsibility to cover in ANY shape or form. However, if you are looking to build a stronger relationship with a customer who (may/may not) bring you much return buisiness(?) or tell buddies what a stand up guy you are for fixing a problem you didn't cause....you might could throw him a discount on future work, etc.
Be careful of course as you will lead into the "well you did it for him" trap. Cause saying you won't and being faced with the situation again are two different things.

GL

[luke]

This is a double edged sword for sure, especially is a close nit community like AO. What really sucks is that this will increase shipping costs for everyone from here on out.

[Dark Side]

I thought you had to sign with USPS insurance.

I had plenty of things insured for parts I've bought here and never signed for a single one. I guess I have been lucky to not have lost anything.


This is a double edged sword for sure, especially is a close nit community like AO. What really sucks is that this will increase shipping costs for everyone from here on out.

If that is what it takes to have solid realiabilty, then I my opinion it is worth every penny.

[RogueFactor]

What really sucks is that this will increase shipping costs for everyone from here on out.

Only if you make it mandatory for everyone. You can do it on an individual basis. Quote it to the customer with and without insurance. Then they choose.

What would really suck is if you took payment by PayPal and didnt insure it. If it never arrived, the customer could dispute the charges with their Credit Card company and PayPal, and youre screwed out of the money. Regardless of what people say here, as the shipper is responsible...I think youve just been lucky up to this point. It really sucks when you learn the lesson the hard way.

[AirAssault]

Noted. If you purchase an item from me and it doesnt show up, you wont expect reimbursement of your parts. Good to know. ;)

If it isn't your screw up, why should I expect you to cover it? That's the problem with people today, expecting something for nothing. Now, if there is no proof that you shipped it, sure you have to cover it. DC is your best friend and it costs very little.

[RogueFactor]

If it isn't your screw up, why should I expect you to cover it?That's the problem with people today, expecting something for nothing.

Ok, by that logic explain why the recipient should cover it if it isnt their screw-up either?

The simple answer is...there is only one person that has the power to insure a package, and that is the person who ships the package. If the receiver has denied insurance, its 100% on the receiver. If the receiver wasnt asked, or given the option of denial, its on both. IMO, $200+ worth of parts should always include insurance.

PayPal & Credit Card companies policies take this into account. If a package isnt received, a person who paid with PayPal can dispute the charge and get their payment back. Same goes if you paid by Credit Card. Simple reason...its a responsibility of the shipper to cover themselves in the event of a package not arriving.

If it were me, Id be asking for half the cost of everything, not just re-doing the machining. As previously stated, I think the customer is being more than reasonable in their request.


Now, if there is no proof that you shipped it, sure you have to cover it. DC is your best friend and it costs very little.

Just an fyi...e-Delivery Confirmation does not show proof of shipment. All it does is show Delivery. If the package never arrives, it wont show the package being sent or received. Most companies ship their packages online.

If you stand in line at the Post Office, they will scan it into the system. But even then, its not a perfect system. With the quantity of packages Ive shipped out by USPS, Ive seen my share of USPS mistakes. Recent ones too. Of all types---packages empty, packages being delivered and never showing up in the system, packages being 3-4 weeks late, this list goes on...