MOTM AO Input.

[RRfireblade]

An apparently mind boggling and seriously upsetting ;) amount of confusion has surfaced over the Oldskool division of MOTM. I guess it's my fault since I allowed 'Classic' to be latched onto over 'Oldskool' which was the intent and point I had in mind. I had no intent on limiting it to Classic Mags only. I attempted to leave the guidelines widely loose ans subjective but it seems as tho some are not happy at all with that amount of flexability :) and would rather have a strict guideline for the contest so . . .

I'm asking what does AO want ?

My feeling was that since we have the OPEN class , anything goes , my issue for the added class division was that Xmags , DWs and other High end custom electros generally rule the open field.

Of course it takes money to build a custom marker but I don't like that pure finances can win over passion in a contest , not everyone can drop $1000+ on an Customized Xmag or DW bodied Emag/Pneumag/Devilmag so . . . the Oldskool Div was born.

Since I do this for AO , Here's the question and the point to you . . .

Please answer these :

1) Do you want only true "Classic Mags" or are we talking about OLDSKOOL in design/spirit /function ? 1b) Is a pump either ?

2) Custom markers allowed or only all stock ? 2b) Fixed Limit on customizations ?

3) Mmm , SS parts as a requirement or Alu okay ? 3b) How much of each allowed ?

4) Do we want all these distinctions ;) ?

5) What else ?

6) Anyone pissed about the Open division ?

Thanks. :)

[Beemer]

6) Anyone pissed about the Open division ?

Ok that got a :spit_take

[RRfireblade]

;)

[going_home]

Its great the way it is man.
Lot more variety since you made two divisions.

:clap:

[RRfireblade]

What about in regards to just the Oldskool division tho ?

[BREAD_DA_PAINTER]

The way i look at it is its your "yard" if we want to play its by your rules :headbang: :headbang: ... if not then go home and be lonely :cry: ..

just need a bigger shirt for us fat guys :eek: :wow: .....


lol....

You do us a great deed just by hosting the MOTM... i want to just say thanks alot :cheers:

[zazzoo]

What about in regards to just the Oldskool division tho ?
You started motm we go by your rules just because one person got mad shouldnt change it to much

[RRfireblade]

The way i look at it is its your "yard" if we want to play its by your rules :headbang: :headbang: ... if not then go home and be lonely :cry: ..

just need a bigger shirt for us fat guys :eek: :wow: .....


lol....

You do us a great deed just by hosting the MOTM... i want to just say thanks alot :cheers:


Thanks , really :) and bigger shirts are coming as soon as I can get to 'em.

[warbeak2099]

Anything that does not have an x-valve is old school. If it has an x-valve it really shouldn't be in the oldschool section, it should be in open class.

A pump with an x-valve should be the only exception although pump/stock class play is experiencing a resurgence as a popular fad.

[rawbutter]

You started motm we go by your rules just because one person got mad shouldnt change it to much

I agree. I think MOTM has been going great thus far. I don't really think any change is needed. The more rules you add, the more complicated it gets, and the more disputes break out.... As it is right now, it's just something fun and simple. Let's keep it that way.

[[NA]WARLORD]

Please answer these :

1) Do you want only true "Classic Mags" or are we talking about OLDSKOOL in design/spirit /function ? 1b) Is a pump either ?

Classic Mags with parts of classic nature meaning of the time/era they were used in. Custom or aftermarket parts are ok as long as they were of the same era. Since the pump was never a production unit, then I would say no.

2) Custom markers allowed or only all stock ? 2b) Fixed Limit on customizations ?

If the Class is defined as Oldskool Custom and not Classic, I don't have a problem with it at all.

3) Mmm , SS parts as a requirement or Alu okay ? 3b) How much of each allowed ?

SS parts as in bodies/valves, but since everything else of that era was alumium, there shouldnt be an issue, but no ULE/X Valves parts, that kind of defeats the Classic nature of the Mag, IMO.

4) Do we want all these distinctions ;) ?

That would be nice.

5) What else ?

Drop the Classic name and call it Oldskool Customs, this way there is no confusion in the future. Additional judges to help define Oldskool vs custom




. Thanks. :)

Your welcome

p.s. as far as pnuemags are concerned, the parts used should define what class it goes in. i.e: If it is Classic Valved Auto/Minimag with oldskool parts, then it should go in the oldskool division, however, if it has ULE'd everything, an X Valve and the like, it should be in the open division, IMO.

[RavishingEddie]

Problem:

There is no way that we would be able to correctly have two distinct entries. Automags are now mostly all oldschool! and there just isn't a giant pool full of old crap to build whatever you want. Just like Jay said, alot of us have no choice but to use new stuff on old stuff to keep the old stuff custom and nice. This is the same thing you see in Lowrider shows and other car shows.

Solution:
The solution is not to change the entries but to inform the voters on how to vote. For instance, I might have a kick butt Emag that for some reason or another would not win the open division, so instead I would join the Classic division by adding a few classic scrap to it. Then it would be on the voters to discredit my gun for lack of classicness eventhough it is shiny and has cool graphics.

Think there is problems now? You haven't seen nothing yet till you start pulling and categorizing (sp) entries.

[RRfireblade]

Problem:

There is no way that we would be able to correctly have two distinct entries. Automags are now mostly all oldschool! and there just isn't a giant pool full of old crap to build whatever you want. Just like Jay said, alot of us have no choice but to use new stuff on old stuff to keep the old stuff custom and nice. This is the same thing you see in Lowrider shows and other car shows.

Solution:
The solution is not to change the entries but to inform the voters on how to vote. For instance, I might have a kick butt Emag that for some reason or another would not win the open division, so instead I would join the Classic division by adding a few classic scrap to it. Then it would be on the voters to discredit my gun for lack of classicness eventhough it is shiny and has cool graphics.

.

Agreed. Precisely why I (currently) put the finalists in the way I do. I try and pick a variation based on the cross section of the entries.

I'm not sure if it seems like it to everyone but there is a ton of work in narrowing the field.

Basically how I do it is :

I start by grouping the related entries by similarity , that also depends on how many will 'group'. For example , if there are half a dozen DW bodied mags (open class) I group them together and pick the strongest entry there. Might be pumps in the Oldskooler. Then if it warrants , I break down Xmags the same way or Emags or pneumags whatever.

I try and then break those down into tops of each sub cat and then to the 5 finalist. Many times there are a few right on the line where I don't want to make the call so I put up anywhere from 6 to maybe 10 finalists so AO can make those close calls.

It's no picnic :0 and with the added class , there are more entries than ever and now more diverse. That was why I tried to leave it open ended so the arguements could be settled with the voting. As each month goes by I go back and recheck the past winners and look for trends to see if I'm on track with my thoughts.

9.9/10 times the winners is who I thought it would be right from the begining :ninja: so I've been staying with my gut. Each month is usually a runaway between 1-2 markers IMO and I put a wide range in of runners up just see if AOs tastes suprises me. It usually doesn't like I said. :)

BUT . . .

I am more than willing to tweak MOTM if enough people ask. There's always some disagreement of course or it wouldn't require any voting but for the far and away most part , it's gone very smooth until this month so I put this here to see if there is any call to change of merit.

[Lee]

Jay: do what YOU want to do. it's your show done from the kindness of your heart. people that don't like it don't need to enter or comment.

unfortunately, there is pretty often an internets smart guy that dampens the mood. i'm sorry you have to deal with that crap.

props to the winners, props to the people with mags nice enough to enter this contest and props to you, sir, for being a stand up guy and doing something for mag owners when no one else is.

your choice is your choice. it's your deal. i personally vote based on what i think applies to each category. if i don't think a gun fits in, then i don't vote for it.

[koleah]

Here's the way I see it: not that many classic mags are very nice looking. A "classic" Classic mag is pretty much dull grey with some ss hose and a black rail and grip and silver barrel of some sort. Not amazing to the eye. But then, there was a lot of leeway in the old school days about how to customize a gun to make it look nicer/ perform better: an Eclipse splash kit for one. So I came up with the following:

In the spirit of "old school"/classic, I don't think the following should be at all allowed in the category:
X-valves
X-mags
X-mag/ULE lowers
any of the DW/RPG/other "newer" aftermarket bodies
X-valves
pneumags
vert/UMF frames
warp bodies

I think the following should generally be kept out of the "old school"/classic division, but if done right, can be allowed:
Original Emag lowers (micro-emag lowers included here)
Hyperframes
RT pro valves
Warp feeds
Macroline
ULE bodies
Emag valves

I think the following should be allowed:
Pump kits
Retro/ ReTro valves
Z-/ galactic bodies

I think the following automatically are included/should be given favor to:
Splash kits
Big bulky expansion chambers :D
Powerfeeds
RT's
CO2 tanks
Steel barrels
Classic valves
12-gram usage
Classic right- or left- feed bodies & minimag bodies
Carbon fiber frames
Benchmark frames
Bike grips
Duckbill ASA's
Hawaiian style tank setups
Steel hosing
Z-grips



Yes there is a good deal of iffy-ness to this list, like for example the winning gun this month had an X-valve on it. Although, I voted against it purely because of the x-valve, and the fact that the other pump gun had a classic valve. But thats just me, and obviously a good deal of people don't agree with that. And warp feeds, that was a tough one to put into a category. Its pretty old, but still doesn't seem to be in the spirit of "old school"/classic.

[flyingpootang]

your choice is your choice. it's your deal. i personally vote based on what i think applies to each category. if i don't think a gun fits in, then i don't vote for it.

I agree with Lee If the entry is not to your liking don't vote for it. You don't have to critic the entries whether they belongs or not. What if I said thats way to common, nothing special about that mag, and it dosen't belong here it's to plain :nono: Even before the polls opened my classic was back in my pumpmag. I didn't whine or cry that I was getting hated on openly nor did I post any objection of what was going on. If I would have lost I simply would have tried to switch it up to make it more appealing, but to my taste not based on opinionated members. I think Jay is doing a great job and shouldn't change anything.

[ThePixelGuru]

1) Do you want only true "Classic Mags" or are we talking about OLDSKOOL in design/spirit /function ? 1b) Is a pump either ?

2) Custom markers allowed or only all stock ? 2b) Fixed Limit on customizations ?

3) Mmm , SS parts as a requirement or Alu okay ? 3b) How much of each allowed ?

4) Do we want all these distinctions ;) ?

5) What else ?

6) Anyone pissed about the Open division ?
1) "Classic 'Mags" to me means 'mags with parts mostly from the earlier era of AGD; splash kits, SS valves and bodies, single triggers et cetera.
1b) Pump 'mags are hard to call. Back in the "good ol' days" only an idiot would take his speedy new semi and convert it to the slow old pump he just got rid of. However, the pumps fit even less with the crazy paint sprayers that take up most of the Open Division, so might as well leave 'em in the Oldskool Division.

2) All stock is boring.
2b) That would also be boring. So long as it captures the "feel" of the division it's all good.

3) Depends marker to marker... Clearly if it's got a ULE body, X-Valve and Intelliframe it's not Oldskool, but one of the above is probably excusable (especially if it's a pump 'mag with a ULE but a stock class feed on it).
3b) Flexible. Depends what the marker looks like to you.

4) If it keeps the whiners away, sure.

5) I have seen the Oldskool Division straying from what I think Oldskool is. Lots of custom anodizing and flashy aluminum recently, rather than splash kits and mixed color SS parts. Suppose that depends more on the entries themselves than the judging, though. Also, we might want to consider what people are voting on. Are the voters rating the markers against some particular criteria or just going on personal preference? Either's fine, but drawing that distinction would, again, keep the whiners away. ;)

6) Now that you mention it, Freebird's rifle didn't seem to fit with the Open Division at all. It would fit with the Oldskool Division even less, though, and it deserved to win something, so I guess it worked out the best it could have.

Side note to [NA]WARLORD: Man, you had some good points at first, but then when you wouldn't shut up and had to try to muck up another thread because you didn't get the answer you wanted the first six times you asked... It just gets old, man. Decent criticism delivered poorly just doesn't help. My marker didn't even make finals this month, and when I looked back on the choices RRfireblade made it was clear to me that he passed mine up because the coolness was in the whole rig and the 'mag itself just didn't stand out. Yours made it to the final vote, and when the vote turned against you you cried foul. Sac up, man, you made it farther than me.

Thanks for keeping MOTM going, RRfireblade. I thought it was a great idea from the beginning, and it just got better when you added the Oldskool Division. Maybe one day I'll have something good enough to get annihilated in the final vote by a better 'mag. :D

[Madmarx]

First of all,

:hail: All Hail Jay!!!! :hail:

Second is just my 2 cents 'cause you asked...

Classics, Old Skoolers or whatever shouldn't have ULE bodies or X-valves that way eliminating the fancy ano jobs.
Putting an x-valved ule bodied mag against a Classic, chrome pf w/ splash parts just doesn't seem right to me. :confused:
There are a lot of custom painted, polished or powder coated steel bodies out there along with nearly completely stock mags that have 1 off custom hand made pieces. :headbang:

[SummaryJudgement]

I considered the "Classic" category to be more "old-school". As in older mag stuff. Classics, minimags, pumps (the earliest I saw one was 97, that's oldschool to me), even micros have been around for at least a decade. Just nothing "new" as mentioned earlier ie, DW, ULE, E/X mags, Pneumags, etc.

[kruger]

And, I say that all this bickering sucks all the fun and spirit out of the contest. Heck, it aint even a contest. Its a bragging thread. "Look at what I got" is all that anybody is saying. You want to formalize it, divide it up with a bunch of qualifiers and have 38 different divisions? Go ahead, but it is still a bragging thread. And, when you put in specific rules of "you cant have this, but you can have that", then you are really opening it up to debate in detail.

I say, leave it the way that it is. Just a friendly little beauty contest. In the great scheme of things, it dont matter.

[Smoothice]

I think the problem is that the oldskool division is so new.

The last 2 months winners were not guns that were heavily modded. They were nice clean mags.

This month I thought flyingpoontangs mag was going to win open class. I never for a second thought it would be in the oldskool division. I thought this because of the previous months winners.

Now we all know what the judge is looking for. And knowing is half the battle.

Go JOE!!!!

[PumpMag]

Seeing 1 heavily custom stock class PumpMag was amazing. Then FP had to enter his. Wow! Automags Rule!

This contest is for fun! It's been Jay's thread all along, suggested by our inventor, TK himself. AGD wanted to have an old school contest, so Jay delivered. AGD wanted it to go like classic cars, but seeing how people can mod their markers is what draws people to this forum. Keeping things old school, completely Mint from the box, or completely stock would get really boring, there would be no variety. Customization with "old school" feel is what everyone looks forward to.

You can make exceptions, as Jay has been doing if the old school feel is right. An X-valve seemed to take away from "old school" feel but it's a Pump marker with a Stock class feed. That itself makes it old school. Paintball was that way long before semis came along.

To endorse Automag Pumps as true classics and true old school, I present to you:

Action Pursuit Games December 1996, Special Paintball Gun Collector's Issue, Page 68,
the first marker in the Pump Paintball Gun section............

68 Automag Pump

http://img2.putfile.com/main/8/22702281118.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/main/8/22702281074.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/main/8/22702281081.jpg

:D

[RRfireblade]

Yeah , that's right . . . Tom wanted Oldskool , it's all his fault. :D

Actually I thing he really wanted something more along the lines of antique or collectable Mags for the contest but I just don't see that as being practical. There's only so many falling in that catagory and other than a "Cool , where's you find that ? " I didn't see alot of fun in it. The idea for a second division as an alternative to what appears in the open class is an idea I did like and ran with , with my spin on it . . . for what thats worth.

I'd like to say thanks to everyone for the praise and support. I really do run MOTM for the love of Mags and AO. And even tho it is 'my' contest and my rules I want everyone to enjoy it and feel worthy of participating. I'll do what I can to make sure that continues. I wish I could let those who fail to make the finals how special their mags are and often how close they came. I've even toyed with the idea of a GMOTM (Ghetto) division for the worst in class. That might be the show stopper ! ! Stay tuned. ;)

My hope is that MOTM opens up the eyes of Mag newbs to what potential lays out there and inspires everyone else by the thought, ingenouity and craftmanship showcased there. It's truly a testiment to the incredible range and longevity the Mag is capable of and after years of MOTM , new ideas still keep popping up all the time. Awesome. :hail: It's also something always (usually ;) ) positive to check out on the forum. With all the doom and gloom in the headlines all the time , we need equal time too. :)

[AirAssault]

I do like it the way it is, I however think X valve does not = classic. RT, and classic valves only.

[wetwrks]

Frankly I think it should be up the the host as to where a particular gun should sit. You are running the contest, it is yours. You are more of an impartial judge of where a paintgun would/should sit.

[Jaan]

First off, I give *you* credit for even caring what other people think and in my opinion, putting in a lot more effort than is deserved to address the concerns of what seems like nothing more than a single whiner.

This is your contest. Don't let someone bully you around. There are people in this world who get by in life simply because they cry and moan and whine until everyone around them gives in, not because of any real talent. I hate the fact that there are some people out there who feel so freaking entitled that they would crap all over what was intended as nothing but a fun little contest.

I entered a black MiniMag a few months ago that didn't even make it into the finals for the Old Skool division. I was really disappointed, since it's my all time favorite gun, but I didn't go on and on and on about it. I put together another gun and entered that one another month, and it won. You win some, you loose some. I never felt any sort of entitlement though, it's not like I'm paying for the privilege, jeesh.

Since you asked though, I think Old Skool should be something that would have been possible "back then". Just because nobody did it 10 years ago, doesn't mean they couldn't have done it 10 years ago. I agree with a previous poster that back in the day nobody in their right mind would have taken their trusty semi 'Mag and turned it into a pump...however...there was a dedicated group of pump guys even then. The Paintball Marshals used to play once a month right up the street from me in Franklin MA...you can look it up in old APG magazines in the back.

'Mags were expensive back then. You didn't see a lot of mods because most people just used their guns as workhorses. The average 'Mag on the field was a boring gray and black gun. The MotM I put together out of new old stock parts would have cost a fortune back then...full splash kit, Hyperframe and warp, not counting the gun itself, was like what, a grand? I won't pay that much for a gun today, even a real one, let alone when I was in my 20's. Also, powdercoating, milling etc was available then as well, you should never dismiss creativity and skill.

You can also acept certain parts, like modern ASA's and Intelliframes. A lot of people back then cut off their trigger guards and put on double triggers...I think an Intelliframe is just an extension of that and I think we can all agree that it's a better solution then a gun with no trigger guard. I see it as being nothing worse than using modern tires on an old car. It's just safer, and does esentually the same thing.

Perhaps part of the perception of what is Old Skool is colored by what we all saw on the fields then. We didn't have the interwebs to show off. Every once in a while at a big game you would see a spectacular custom made 'Mag, but it was unusual. Think about it, it still is unusual to see them if you disregard what you see on-line.

Bah. It's your contest. Treat it like pr0n. You'll know it when you see it.