2 guns, 2 noids, how to alternating off one trigger/switch

[LK-13]

if you have 2 guns, each with their own sear and noid, and you want them to shoot alternating off one trigger/switch....
is there a board currently made that can do this?
would a custom board need to be made?
anyone know someone that could make such a board?
would the battery need to be located at the control box or at the solenoid?

thinking about something like this for a vehicle mounted "Deck Gun"
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/LK-13/automagesetup.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/LK-13/DeckGuncontrolebox.jpg

this is for a 4 year old project that I just might have found the answer to!

[athomas]

Use a standard board. Then for the second solenoid control, construct a simple circuit to fire on the trailing edge of the first solenoid. That would make the second gun fire as the first solenoid was returning. You could easily make the 2nd pulse a predenterminded dwell value so the gun would still fire properly and efficiently.

[LK-13]

Use a standard board. Then for the second solenoid control, construct a simple circuit to fire on the trailing edge of the first solenoid. That would make the second gun fire as the first solenoid was returning. You could easily make the 2nd pulse a predenterminded dwell value so the gun would still fire properly and efficiently.

OK, i think I'm with you on this, but I'm an electronics idiot, while i can make basic connections and things like that, constructing complex circuits is kind of beyond me.

it sounds like your well versed in this kind of thing, if i was to break down exactly what i need
in a much better drawing than what i have posted so far, would you be willing to write a how to and detail the drawing accordingly?

I'm very good at following step by step directions.

Decker on the MCB has suggested i use the Morlock board, would you agree?

[outreach]

i had an idea of an ego frame with the eblade board in it :D

[LK-13]

i know the drawing is butt fuggly but this is a rough idea of how i see it.
let me know if you think it's possible or if I'm daft.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/LK-13/deckgunpossiblesetup.jpg

[questionful]

If you get two boards, you could just use a toggle instead of a switch.

[athomas]

Decker on the MCB has suggested i use the Morlock board, would you agree?A morlock board is small and easy to use, plus it gives you lots of firing modes.

There are different ways to do this.

1) create 2 trigger pulses to 2 boards. The 2nd trigger pulse can be delayed by a predetermined time value.

2) use the board output to start a second output pulse from a dedicated circuit to drive the 2nd solenoid.


3) Use a morlock board that has programming for two distinct outputs. It is designed for a double action ram but it should work nicely in your instance as well. This is my recommendation.

[Spider-TW]

Would a morlock board be able to sustain two sear trip solenoids, or will it need some auxiliary circuits for powering those?

[Pneumagger]

what kind of solenoids are you planning on using.
Without ULT in each valve a pancake noid isn't going to work.
Plus,the ULTs those dual pancake noids will be end of days for batteries.

[Spider-TW]

Since he's thinking vehicle mount, he will just have to tap the vehicle electrical system. That would open up the solenoid selection greatly, but you would have to put some isolation or filtering on there to keep the 12 V switching from hitting the morlock. But by the time you do that, you may just want to have a plain timer circuit instead of the morlock.

An alternator and a scuba tank make great accessories for a pair mags. You'll need the electrical supply for a pair of warp feeds anyway. :bounce:

[Spider-TW]

I bet Luke or one of his peers could cut a plate of aluminum that would be the equivalent of two mag rails side by side for a decent price. After you add picatinny rails, 3D milling and anno the price may get pretty stiff though :D

That plate could be the connection to your vehicle mount and trigger mechanism. Which reminds me, you will want to control each mag separately for trouble shooting; maybe just a jumper.

[LK-13]

I bet Luke or one of his peers could cut a plate of aluminum that would be the equivalent of two mag rails side by side for a decent price. After you add picatinny rails, 3D milling and anno the price may get pretty stiff though :D

That plate could be the connection to your vehicle mount and trigger mechanism.


interesting idea.
but before i go doing anything like that,
i think that the triggering system is going to take some experimentation first to get that section up and running.
then I'll worry about mounting guns and stuff to the different applications i have in mind.
you see i also want a version of this in a wood stock and another that is off a gauntlet type
grip so it's almost a deck gun pistol lol.

[LK-13]

you will want to control each mag separately for trouble shooting; maybe just a jumper.

that is the idea behind the cables,
if one gun seems to be malfunctioning you can just unplug it for testing
and or sub in a new one.
i want the whole system to be plug and play interchangeable.
additionally the vehicle mounted one will be able to take more than just two
guns, can you imagine a turret with say 6 or 8 guns opening up in a tank battle!

[Spider-TW]

But I can't imagine paying for the paint!

If you built a nice quad, you might be able to sell it to the Germans at a D-Day/Normandy game.

[LK-13]

here is what Doc Nickel had to say:
Doc Nickel has replied (with title "Okay, real quick like..."):

As far as the electronics go, you can get about halfway there with an off-the-shelf Morlock or MiniMorlock. Just wire each solenoid to the two seperate connections, and dial in however much seperation you want between the first and second 'noid event.

In "normal" mode, you'll have one trigger pull which fires two shots, A then B, with up to... what, half a second seperation? Or is it quarter-second? 255 milliseconds? Hell, it's been a *long* time since I fiddled with a Morlock.

And you can also have "autoresponse" mode, which will fire AB on the pull, then fire AB again on the release.

I had plans years ago to make a dual Intimidator just like I made my dual Autococker. Except with two ram assemblies as well, so each side could fire seperately.

Then, of course, run it autoresponse so one trigger pull would result in four balls.

One of my many projects I haven't had the time to even start...

Doc.

[LK-13]

Why not just use a flip-flop relay?

The relay has power in, two power outputs and a trigger in and out. Each time it's triggered, it switches the output for the next cycle.
Just be sure to get a relay that's rated for the switching speed you're after.


It's likely that you'll need a little more oomph if you're using 'mag parts (especially classic valves since you can't really ULT them). So go ahead and get 18-volt solenoids. Wire them to the reversing relay.

This way you can have two 9-volts used just for solenoid operation. You then use a third 9-volt only for board, trigger and relay operation. That battery will last darn near forever. You just use the standard board output to the relay and sit it at whatever output you want. Each pull gives you one shot and the barrels alternate. No "horse trot" timing either which is nice.

Good luck.


i didn't know there was such a thing.
please anyone that knows about these devices tell me more!
where can i get one of these?
what do they cost?
is this tough/complicated to work with?
would this let me use a board with only a single noid out put,
because the flip/flop relay would be sending signal to different noids alternating?
could i cannibalize a Tippmann egrip to make this happen with an extra noid and the flip/flop relay?

[st6212]

what kind of solenoids are you planning on using.
Without ULT in each valve a pancake noid isn't going to work.
Plus,the ULTs those dual pancake noids will be end of days for batteries.

Why wouldn't the pancake noid not work without ULT?

If I recall the Hyperframe's worked fine with the classic valve and X-Valve, before the ULT was released?

[p8ntbal4me]

You could always use a relay to change from the fire cycle of one gun to the cycle start of another.

Meaning that insted of the eyes sensing paint,.. it can sense a signal to allow the gun to fire. So if you have the bord set to fire,.. then cycle and do all its things it does,.. toward the end the cycle that the baord goes through can be set to "read" anothe eye input (as someone mentioned the Morlock,.. believe it can do timing as well as an eye-read). After the timer expires or the other set of eyes,.. in this case a gun,.. starts a cycle,.. the first gun can not fire till the second one gives it a signal to start cycling.

I played with relays on my emag,.. and got some nice results! Problem is that I was using reed relays that were not ment for the load involved in the switching of 18volts on the tube solenoid inside the gun. If I can figure out a relay that will be better for the setup,.. I can get an emag to take any aftermarket board. The ones I used in my EPM Kit ran the emag for 700 shots fine,.... till the relay gave out.

[athomas]

Mechanical relays are no good for this type of application. You are better off using a solid state output device. You also can't use a flip-flop type output. When one is off the other is on. One solenoid would always be energized thus using alot of power and could have a detrimental effect on the life of the solenoid.

The dual output morlock board fires one output, then the other based on a programmed delay as previously mentioned. You would have access to many different programmed modes of fire. The only thing that would be difficult to manage would be the eye logic. You would have to rely on only 1 set of eyes, or you could rely on both sets of breach eyes seeing a ball before the gun can cycle, but not each set of breach eyes independent of each other. The only way you would have independent eye logic would be if you used 2 different boards, one for each gun barrel.

[LK-13]

Mechanical relays are no good for this type of application. You are better off using a solid state output device. You also can't use a flip-flop type output. When one is off the other is on. One solenoid would always be energized thus using alot of power and could have a detrimental effect on the life of the solenoid.

The dual output morlock board fires one output, then the other based on a programmed delay as previously mentioned. You would have access to many different programmed modes of fire. The only thing that would be difficult to manage would be the eye logic. You would have to rely on only 1 set of eyes, or you could rely on both sets of breach eyes seeing a ball before the gun can cycle, but not each set of breach eyes independent of each other. The only way you would have independent eye logic would be if you used 2 different boards, one for each gun barrel.

i'm not going to be using any eyes at all.
each gun will be fed by a QLOADER. (it's lighter than 2 hoppers + 2 warps)

[LK-13]

WOO HOO!!! I GOT IT FIGURED OUT!!!!
AND IT WORKS!!!
only shoots in one mode,
alternating full auto,
but it works and i wont have to buy a ton of pricey stuff!!

OK guy I'll get pics up once i have the working marker up and running,
only built a test rig for now but it works!! :bounce: :bounce: :cheers:
but till i have a working marker I'm keeping the secret to myself,
those that still want to figure out how to do this feel free to post more
ideas after all there is more than one way to do anything.

[athomas]

i'm not going to be using any eyes at all.
each gun will be fed by a QLOADER. (it's lighter than 2 hoppers + 2 warps)Even easier then. Good luck with the project.