View Full Version : ULT & RT on off in pump mag
who here has used either one in a pump mag
i have problems with the trigger resetting with them, im thinking that its the pin not pushing the sear as easily as a stock on off
thinking if i cut the wave spring down some it will help....any suggestions?
flyingpootang
08-27-2007, 10:41 PM
I've used a RT w/.750 pin in my classic valved mag and I currently use a ULT in my pumpmag also with a classic valve w/o a problem. Remove 1 shim at a time in your ULT until it shoots reliably also check if the sear rod length is correct. Don't cut the wave spring or your pumpmag will shoot semi.
yeah.....its either the length or the strewngth of the wave spring....
humm or the bolt spring......all i know is when i put in the RT or ULT on off...its REALLY hard to push back the bolt to catch the sear
flyingpootang
08-28-2007, 08:57 AM
So if you use a classic on/off it's easy to pump?
athomas
08-28-2007, 09:10 AM
yeah.....its either the length or the strewngth of the wave spring....
humm or the bolt spring......all i know is when i put in the RT or ULT on off...its REALLY hard to push back the bolt to catch the searThat doesn't make sense. The pump pressure is more related to the force exerted by the wave spring, and not the on-off force. Although, it could be that you get the feeling that you have to push the pump back farther to get the sear to catch due to the reduced force to return the sear.
Although, it could be that you get the feeling that you have to push the pump back farther to get the sear to catch due to the reduced force to return the sear.
i thought thats what i said
athomas
08-28-2007, 03:41 PM
No, you gave the impression that the on-off pins made it harder to push the pump back and offered the explaination as if it was directly related to the force applied to the sear. I added to your explaination as to why a pin with a lighter force applied to it would feel like it took more force to push the pump back.
flyingpootang
08-28-2007, 04:01 PM
The wave spring only causes the bolt to not catch. It dosen't have anything to do with hard hard it is to re-cock the bolt. The bolt sprig also has nothing to do with the pump re-cocking force needed. I would look at the pump arm it may not be bent/angled up properly and draging on the bolt lip rather than hitting the bolt sear seat. Try to slightly bend/angel it up some to make better contact with the bolt sear seat face......
No, you gave the impression that the on-off pins made it harder to push the pump back and offered the explaination as if it was directly related to the force applied to the sear. I added to your explaination as to why a pin with a lighter force applied to it would feel like it took more force to push the pump back.
"im thinking that its the pin not pushing the sear as easily as a stock on off"
"all i know is when i put in the RT or ULT on off...its REALLY hard to push back the bolt to catch the sear"
see same thing
the sear will only catch the bolt if the on off pin pushes it forward, a lighter pin force would cause you to push the bolt futher back so the sear can catch the bolt, if not then the sear only partially catches the bolt making for a short stroked trigger pull
which leads nicely to pootangs post
The wave spring only causes the bolt to not catch. It dosen't have anything to do with hard hard it is to re-cock the bolt. The bolt sprig also has nothing to do with the pump re-cocking force needed.
but lets say the wave spring is harder to compress or longer than it should be....then the pump would have to push back the bolt....either further back or it would require more force to move the bolt back to catch the sear
unless theres something else at play....hopefully something simpler than a waves springs force or length
I would look at the pump arm it may not be bent/angled up properly and draging on the bolt lip rather than hitting the bolt sear seat. Try to slightly bend/angel it up some to make better contact with the bolt sear seat face......ill try this...but how does that explain how the stock is easier than the ULT
that is assuming that the ULT, RT and stock on off would use the same force to push back the bolt
i would like to use the ULT without having the hard pump.....it does feel so right
flyingpootang
08-28-2007, 04:58 PM
Wow this is confusing I don't think we understand each other.
(1) The ULT, RT, classic on/off push the rear of the sear down, which forces the front of the sear up, which retains the bolt.
(2) The bolt spring is compressed when the marker is fired and then decompresses to return the bolt at rest,
(3) The wave spring only cause the bolt not to seat completly and the sear not to lock against the bolt sear face.
The on/offs have nothing to do with pushing the bolt backward to engage the sear, so what your saying is really confusing :confused: :confused: :confused: . Are you using a correct wave spring??? because you keep saying you want to cut it down. Can you take pics of all the components your using? I think in this case it may help....
hahahaha i think that will help....were on the same page now i hope
The on/offs have nothing to do with pushing the bolt backward to engage the searI totally agree!!!!
but the on off pin does push the sear up....and if the bolts lip does touch the sear some that friction will stop the Pin from pushing the sear up completely
did i make sense?
flyingpootang
08-28-2007, 06:17 PM
hahahaha i think that will help....were on the same page now i hope
I totally agree!!!!
but the on off pin does push the sear up....and if the bolts lip does touch the sear some that friction will stop the Pin from pushing the sear up completely
did i make sense?
Now were making progress. There should be no friction against the bolt lip face where the sear contacts/locks up. The wave spring keeps the bolt from locking up by keeping the bolt slightly forward. The most upper top portion of the sear should hit the bottom of the bolt lip (not the face of the lip). When pumped back the wave spring is compressed back allowing for the bolt to move fully back, allowing the on/off to continue it downward movement of the back of the sear , and thus moving the front of the sear up and locking the bolt back.
I think we got off track your problem is it's hard to pump with a ULT or RT on/off more so than a classic setup. Again I think that bending/re-angling the pump rod should fix your problem. Your pump rod is not making proper contact with the bolt lip's face and causing a grinding felling when pumped. It's probably dragging along the bottom of the bolt lip instead of contacting the bolt lip face and making it harder to pump/re-cock..
athomas
08-28-2007, 09:14 PM
My sentiments exactly.
- The wave spring only induces bolt stick to prevent the bolt from fully resetting.
- The on-offs shouldn't affect the cocking motion.
- The pump is being prevented from easily pushing the bolt back (maybe the pump rod is too short, or binding as mentioned earlier)
the pump rod is the right length and there is no binding, so what else could it be?
what symptoms would there be if the wave spring was too long?
athomas
08-29-2007, 08:35 PM
If the wave spring was too long, it would just bolt stick farther out. The cocking action would still be the same. The wave spring is not that stiff.
Is your rail bushing in place?
flyingpootang
08-30-2007, 12:18 AM
Pump are you using a stock AGD wave spring? A good way to tell if your pump rod is dragging across the bottom of the bolt lip is to put some dark grease, paint or nail polish onto the very tip of the rod where it contacts the bolt. Without air pump the handle and disassemble the marker and see where the grease or paint marked onto the bolt.
The wave spring is not that stiff.the one i have in the gun is
Pump are you using a stock AGD wave spring?
nope i think it is the wave spring....
but how hard should it be? should i be able to compress it any? or should it be a hard spring to compress by hand?
its even hard to push the bolt back when its not in the gun
flyingpootang
08-30-2007, 03:30 AM
You should be able to compress it with your fingers. If you have a non stock wave spring the thickness, size, and compression rate may all be thrown off. If you have more than 1 and need to make it less stiff you can carefully/quickly heat it up with a torch. Best bet is to get a stock wave spring. In the future when asking for help it would be easier to diagnose if you told us that it had non stock parts on it ;)
You should be able to compress it with your fingers.
nope, its really hard to compress, bingo thats the problem
If you have a non stock wave spring the thickness, size, and compression rate may all be thrown off.yeah everything is same as Haveblue's FAQ but the compression force
In the future when asking for help it would be easier to diagnose if you told us that it had non stock parts on it ;)well i didnt know it wasnt stock, but i did know it was the problem..........thanks for the rigmarole guys :D
so these springs are supposed to be easy to compress.....bummer.....this one is very stiff, ill try and find one thats lighter....dont feel like trying to change the force of this one and i dont want to cut it if i dont have an extra
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