What style of trigger do you prefer?

[Anjin3515]

Of the triggers that are out there what do you prefer?

[TnDeathInc]

Of the triggers that are out there what do you prefer?


viperblade and splinter from TMS for mech

Tunablade for emag -

[buzzboy]

For mech I thought the most comfortable(not nessacarly fastest) frame was the stock carbon. The Y grip I thought was not quite as nice but a lot faster.

On electro I like a razor style trigger. Just a straight, thin little piece of metal.

[B-Pow]

I find it easier to get higher rates of fire raking a doubble finger trigger.

You can walk any shape of trigger but you can only rake if it has the bumps for the fingers.

[Warwitch]

Tunablade/Scythe style for me.

Though I would love to try one of the Splinter triggers. They look like they feel great.

[Dark Side]

Tunablade and the Vipers for me.

[Zone Drifter]

For mech I thought the most comfortable(not nessacarly fastest) frame was the stock carbon.
I agree with that. The carbon fiber frame is definitely the most comfortable to hold, but isn't fast enough. I actually prefer a y-grip with a double trigger.

When it comes to triggers, I don't walk, I run. Stock double works for me.

[ClassicMagger]

Hey:

Just curious but on the poll threads-Would you really consider a ViperBlade Pro trigger a 'Blade Style'?

Maybe its my mistake but I would consider it a 'Scythe' or something else.

Also, a Splinter Pro is more of a hybrid trigger-Blade/Double. It is classically a Double Triger because it has the hump but it is more of a blade style (positioning etc.)

-ClassicMagger

[Mind'sEye]

Tunablade for E/Xmag and Viperblade for Devilmag.

[Anjin3515]

Hey:

Just curious but on the poll threads-Would you really consider a ViperBlade Pro trigger a 'Blade Style'?

Maybe its my mistake but I would consider it a 'Scythe' or something else.

Also, a Splinter Pro is more of a hybrid trigger-Blade/Double. It is classically a Double Triger because it has the hump but it is more of a blade style (positioning etc.)

-ClassicMagger


see you know much more then I :)
I didn't realize any of this...I was just going off basic looks.
Thanks for the information.

[warbeak2099]

The ACP Slasher trigger on my LCE Spydermag :D

[RogueFactor]

Hey:

Just curious but on the poll threads-Would you really consider a ViperBlade Pro trigger a 'Blade Style'?

Maybe its my mistake but I would consider it a 'Scythe' or something else.

Also, a Splinter Pro is more of a hybrid trigger-Blade/Double. It is classically a Double Triger because it has the hump but it is more of a blade style (positioning etc.)

-ClassicMagger

We would disagree.

As far as blade vs. double goes, the ViperBlade(while most definitly a scythe styling) would be considered a "blade trigger". Scythe, by definition, is a blade. And a Blade as far as triggers go, have a single edge.

The Splinter Pro would be considered a double trigger. And because it has a hump, it is by definition NOT a blade trigger. It has a double edge separated by the hump.

[warbeak2099]

We would disagree.

As far as blade vs. double goes, the ViperBlade(while most definitly a scythe styling) would be considered a "blade trigger". Scythe, by definition, is a blade. And a Blade as far as triggers go, have a single edge.

I don't think so. Scythe style triggers have a tremendously different feel than blade triggers. The different is so drastic that they are indeed different.

[RogueFactor]

I don't think so. Scythe style triggers have a tremendously different feel than blade triggers. The different is so drastic that they are indeed different.

Their feel has nothing to do with the definition of their style. And what you think defies the very definition of scythe. If you want to argue the definition, argue it with American Heritage Dictionary.

It is indeed a 'blade' trigger:

scythe (sīth) Pronunciation Key
n. An implement consisting of a long, curved single-edged blade with a long bent handle, used for mowing or reaping.

[Warwitch]

Scythe only reffers to the shape of the trigger. And I dont know about you, but I use mine for mowing and reapig all the time :shooting:

[RogueFactor]

Scythe only reffers to the shape of the trigger. And I dont know about you, but I use mine for mowing all the time :shooting:

Not just the shape, but also the style. It is a single-edged trigger. Double triggers are not.

[Warwitch]

Not just the shape, but also the style. It is a single-edged trigger. Double triggers are not.


Ah, now I see. ;)

[going_home]

Tunablade style trigger hands down.
Of course it wouldnt do much good to design one for an Intelliframe,
with no more room in the guard than it has.
Would be awesome to have one like that for a UMF though.


:cool:

[mr doo doo]

Between using the regular double trigger from the Intelliframe and the viperblade pro, definetely the viperblade!!

[drg]

We would disagree.

As far as blade vs. double goes, the ViperBlade(while most definitly a scythe styling) would be considered a "blade trigger". Scythe, by definition, is a blade. And a Blade as far as triggers go, have a single edge.

The Splinter Pro would be considered a double trigger. And because it has a hump, it is by definition NOT a blade trigger. It has a double edge separated by the hump.

Most manufacturers differentiate between true blade style -- a single, basically flat or concave curve -- and "wave" style, which has been called "scythe" style earlier in this thread -- a compound of 2 curves, one convex and one concave.

There is certainly enough difference in feel to make lumping them together undesirable for the purposes of a poll like this. The wave type triggers move the point of contact a lot further out toward the middle finger.

[Anjin3515]

Most manufacturers differentiate between true blade style -- a single, basically flat or concave curve -- and "wave" style, which has been called "scythe" style earlier in this thread -- a compound of 2 curves, one convex and one concave.

There is certainly enough difference in feel to make lumping them together undesirable for the purposes of a poll like this. The wave type triggers move the point of contact a lot further out toward the middle finger.


As I stated earlier...I was going off basic looks...I didn't know there was such complexity in triggers...and I am finding this educational...but i did leave room for my ignorance with the choice of "Something I missed"

Really the point was to see what most people prefer and are comfortable with so eventually based off that information I may try out the "winning" trigger style. Of course I am going to start with the stock trigger...and if I like it I may never change. Still good to get the information for future reference.

[RogueFactor]

There is certainly enough difference in feel to make lumping them together undesirable for the purposes of a poll like this. The wave type triggers move the point of contact a lot further out toward the middle finger.

Check the poll. This is about blade vs. double triggers vs. single. Im sure once he decides on the style he wants(based on looks), then he will make a poll on feel. Then you can tell him all about the difference between the BLADE style triggers available.

Also, the way a trigger feels is subjective. He wont know how they feel for him until he tries one. It appears he is looking to narrow down his decisions by what the majority go with based on looks.


As I stated earlier...I was going off basic looks...I didn't know there was such complexity in triggers...and I am finding this educational...but i did leave room for my ignorance with the choice of "Something I missed"

Really the point was to see what most people prefer and are comfortable with so eventually based off that information I may try out the "winning" trigger style. Of course I am going to start with the stock trigger...and if I like it I may never change. Still good to get the information for future reference.

I realized you were going off basic looks. And the basics are just as I posted. There really isnt a complexity to triggers.

There are only 2 ways to choose a trigger: Looks and Feel. If you like the way it looks, and you like the way it Feels, the choice is easy. Problem is, you wont know how it feels until you try one. So a buyer usually starts with the style they like.

I can for certain give the answer as far as preference goes. Most mag users choose blade style triggers(whether that be a scythe or not) over double triggers. The selling ratio of the ViperBlade vs Splinter Pro is 5:1. As for AGD Blade vs. Double, I think Ive only ever sold 1 or 2 double triggers. All the rest have been AGD Intelliblades.

Hope this helps.

[drg]

Also, the way a trigger feels is subjective. He wont know how they feel for him until he tries one. It appears he is looking to narrow down his decisions by what the majority go with based on looks.

Actually no, the way a trigger feels is not subjective, it is an objective result of its design/profile. How you like the way it feels is subjective.

A blade and a true wave/scythe trigger are two different kinds of triggers, period. There may be some confusion because the Viperblade Pro is a relatively mild compound curve and treads right at the edge of what has been called a "blade" by other manufacturers (note that blade styles are usually a single, gentle curve, but can be either convex or concave). However a true wave style feels as different from a true blade style as a double feels from a blade ... in fact probably more so.

As an example, with a true blade, the index and middle fingers travel approximately the same distance when walking, which is the same as a double trigger. With a wave/scythe style, the middle finger travels far less than the index when walking. This has implications with different wrist angles, among other things.

[RogueFactor]

Actually no, the way a trigger feels is not subjective, it is an objective result of its design/profile. How you like the way it feels is subjective.
Actually, no. Feel, one of our 5 senses, is subjective. Its an individual perception. So 'the way a trigger feels' is subjective by definition. Because the way it feels to you is not the same as the way it feels to someone else. So it is NOT objective. Whether one likes that feel, is also subjective.


A blade and a true wave/scythe trigger are two different kinds of triggers, period.

Sorry, but that is incorrect.

Any single edged trigger is a 'blade' trigger. Those styles of triggers include all the different single edged shapes(CP rake, Techna Trigger finger job, Techna Trigger scythe/wave, CP slingblade, CP Swoop Trigger, etc)

Double Triggers Id hope are self explanatory.


However a true wave style feels as different from a true blade style as a double feels from a blade ... in fact probably more so.
That may be true. How it feels has nothing to do with how triggers are classified. Here is the classification tree:

Highest Classification: Single Trigger(all triggers that are 1 finger) vs. Double Trigger(all triggers that are 2 finger)
Subset of Double Triggers: Blade Triggers(All Single edged triggers), Double Triggers(All Double edged triggers)
Subset of Blade Triggers: Blade Style(as youve suggested), Scythe/Wave Style, Swoop style, etc

Note: I am using the first subset. You are arguing the second subset. In this case, the guy who started the poll has asked to choose based on LOOKS. The difference in LOOKS between a blade and double triggers. Check the poll. He didnt ask for the next subset, the differences between the blade styles of triggers


As an example, with a true blade, the index and middle fingers travel approximately the same distance when walking, which is the same as a double trigger. With a wave/scythe style, the middle finger travels far less than the index when walking. This has implications with different wrist angles, among other things.

Distances, wrist angles among other things are all individual and therefore subjective. How a user shoots, whether with one finger or two, the size of their fingers, hands, the style of the frame they use(vert, 45, hybrid, Y-Grip, Z-Grip) will be different from user to user. Which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how triggers are classified.

[Anjin3515]

Check the poll. This is about blade vs. double triggers vs. single. Im sure once he decides on the style he wants(based on looks), then he will make a poll on feel. Then you can tell him all about the difference between the BLADE style triggers available.

Also, the way a trigger feels is subjective. He wont know how they feel for him until he tries one. It appears he is looking to narrow down his decisions by what the majority go with based on looks.

I realized you were going off basic looks. And the basics are just as I posted. There really isnt a complexity to triggers.

I should clarify....my bad....

What I meant by "going off of looks" was..... I chose the poll options based on what a trigger looks like...not knowing much about triggers I went with what I figured were the differences as shown by the way they look....I wouldn't just buy a trigger based on looks alone...and my fault for not being more clear on this....the "going off of looks" did not refer to how I was going to make my choice...but rather how I set up the poll options....and again...my fault for not making this more clear....

By complexity I meant I didn't know there was difference between the blade style triggers...in my noobness I thought a blade was a blade was a blade.....but I guess I am learning there is more to this :)

I wanted to get a sample of what Mag users prefer....then based on that I could try the majority option first. Figuring that would be a good starting point rather then just guessing in the dark what to try. I agree completely that the feel will be subjective. I don't know what these will all feel like...so I was going for the "most popular" hopeing/thinking that this would be subjectively by majority (if there is such a thing) the best "feel"...or at least the best point to start figuring out what I would prefer.

Rogue...you have always been helpful... :clap:



Actually no, the way a trigger feels is not subjective, it is an objective result of its design/profile. How you like the way it feels is subjective.

I think what Rogue was saying (hope its ok to speak for you Rogue)....was that "feel" was how one likes/prefers/is comfortable with the trigger. I don't think he meant literally the way it feels on ones finger. While what you say is true I think there was a gap in communication over the meaning of "feel".
EDIT : This was being typed while Rogue posted his response and he explained what he meant...I am still leaving it in...as I think maybe we were splitting hairs here about what "feel" is.....


Thanks for the information about the different triggers and how they work....its good information for me to have.



In the end when it comes to things like this its all personal preference....I was trying to get at what the majority's personal preference was....In time I will figure out mine.

Again sorry for any confusion....

[cyrus-the-virus]

Straight blade triggers on semi auto guns.

single trigger on pumps

[RogueFactor]

I should clarify....my bad....

What I meant by "going off of looks" was..... I chose the poll options based on what a trigger looks like...not knowing much about triggers I went with what I figured were the differences as shown by the way they look....I wouldn't just buy a trigger based on looks alone...and my fault for not being more clear on this....the "going off of looks" did not refer to how I was going to make my choice...but rather how I set up the poll options....and again...my fault for not making this more clear....

By complexity I meant I didn't know there was difference between the blade style triggers...in my noobness I thought a blade was a blade was a blade.....but I guess I am learning there is more to this :)

I wanted to get a sample of what Mag users prefer....then based on that I could try the majority option first. Figuring that would be a good starting point rather then just guessing in the dark what to try. I agree completely that the feel will be subjective. I don't know what these will all feel like...so I was going for the "most popular" hopeing/thinking that this would be subjectively by majority (if there is such a thing) the best "feel"...or at least the best point to start figuring out what I would prefer.

Rogue...you have always been helpful... :clap:

Its all good. Trust me, I get this question ALL THE TIME! :cheers: I knew you were starting from the beginning. The silly part about it is, by drg/warbeak2099's definition, there arent any aftermarket 'true blade' triggers for AGD frames. Only the scythe style. So their points become pointless since you are looking for a mag trigger.

The reason why the triggers are classified in the order from SET to SUBSET as Ive listed, is thats how the customer makes their choice. First they choose between 1-Finger vs. 2 Finger, then between Blade and Double. Then once theyve narrowed that down, they choose between the styles of blades or the styles of doubles.

Its a fairly simple process, unless you get someone who wants to argue FEEL. Because then it becomes subjective and there is no right or wrong answer. ;)


Thanks for the information about the different triggers and how they work....its good information for me to have.

In the end when it comes to things like this its all personal preference....I was trying to get at what the majority's personal preference was....In time I will figure out mine.

Sure thing.

Let me repeat though....Blade style triggers outsell the doubles easily. The style of blade trigger doesnt matter either.

[MoeMag]

http://store.customproducts.us/images/product/large/lg_159.jpg
Best trigger.


First off... the ego trigger system is incredible. Forward and backward stops, travel adjust, and magnetic and/or spring tension adjustors. I like micro switches but optics with a magnetic return will always be my fav. Forgive me but the Hall sensor never had a well enough defined activation point for me.

But on track with this thread...
I like a metal slight single fwd curve with a high gloss finish. Nothing like a little dow 55 on a shiny metal trigger. Carbon fiber and delrin triggers never did it for me. Then anything with a dust finish just sucks. too much grip on the trigger for rake'ing it. Oh! did I mention bearings? yeah... I like bearings a lot. Smooth as all get out and NO SIDE TO SIDE SLOP!

EDIT:
whoops... I was still caught up with the g-force p-frame trigger thing.

I like the CF single trigger the best for mags. Its just cool. :headbang:

[drg]

Actually, no. Feel, one of our 5 senses, is subjective. Its an individual perception. So 'the way a trigger feels' is subjective by definition. Because the way it feels to you is not the same as the way it feels to someone else. So it is NOT objective. Whether one likes that feel, is also subjective.

We are not talking about the sense "feel" but "trigger feel" -- the sum total of the physical, mechanical properties of a particular trigger in relation to activating it. This includes trigger geometry, pull weight, sideplay, etc. all very tangible and objectively measurable. It is a property of the trigger and/or the marker, not the sense of the person touching it.


Sorry, but that is incorrect.

Any single edged trigger is a 'blade' trigger. Those styles of triggers include all the different single edged shapes(CP rake, Techna Trigger finger job, Techna Trigger scythe/wave, CP slingblade, CP Swoop Trigger, etc)

Double Triggers Id hope are self explanatory.

That may be true. How it feels has nothing to do with how triggers are classified. Here is the classification tree:

Highest Classification: Single Trigger(all triggers that are 1 finger) vs. Double Trigger(all triggers that are 2 finger)
Subset of Double Triggers: Blade Triggers(All Single edged triggers), Double Triggers(All Double edged triggers)
Subset of Blade Triggers: Blade Style(as youve suggested), Scythe/Wave Style, Swoop style, etc

Note: I am using the first subset. You are arguing the second subset. In this case, the guy who started the poll has asked to choose based on LOOKS. The difference in LOOKS between a blade and double triggers. Check the poll. He didnt ask for the next subset, the differences between the blade styles of triggers

Whose classifications are these? Yours? What do you consider an "edge"? I define it as a curve along which a finger is meant to actuate the trigger. Blade triggers have one (convex or concave), wave/scythe triggers have two (convex and concave), as do double triggers (concave and concave).


Distances, wrist angles among other things are all individual and therefore subjective. How a user shoots, whether with one finger or two, the size of their fingers, hands, the style of the frame they use(vert, 45, hybrid, Y-Grip, Z-Grip) will be different from user to user. Which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how triggers are classified.

No they are not subjective, they are tangible properties of the trigger system -- the PREFERENCES of wrist angle and the angles at which individuals hold their wrists are subjective and variable from person to person. So whether a particular trigger arrangement “works” for a person or not is what is subjective, NOT the properties of the trigger arrangement, such as the wrist angle it works best at. The argument you are making amounts to “it’s all in your head,” which anyone who has shot these various types of triggers can attest is untrue — there are real physical differences in the way each of these types operate.

Note I did not mention these properties as a means for classification, which I am SURE you are aware of, so that is a distractive argument.

The point I and others have made is, despite the classifications in the poll above, there is an important distinction to be made between types of triggers which have been lumped together, which is why you see so many people picking “blade” ... The great majority these days are either blade or wave/scythe type; but there is a much greater divergence between these two types because they are absolutely two different types of triggers and have very different properties.

By the way, the OP did NOT specifically say he was looking for an AGD trigger. He gave AGD triggers as examples, but he does not specifically indicate he is looking strictly for AGD triggers.

[Anjin3515]

Maybe I should also be asking....who has triggers for the Mag...

I see AGD,RPG and Tuna.....are there others (that are in still in production) ??

[RogueFactor]

first off... the ego trigger system is incredible. I like micro switches but optics with a magnetic return will always be my fav. Forgive me but the Hall sensor never had a well enough defined activation point for me.

Doh. Your going to overload him!

Weve now gotten into a whole 'nother series of sets.

The one set above my highest classification(since i only make mechanical triggers) is Electro vs. Mech Triggers. Youve now given a subset of Electro Triggers(type of activation): Micro Switch vs. Optics vs. Hall Effect.


But on track with this thread...
I like a metal slight single fwd curve with a high gloss finish. Carbon fiber and delrin triggers never did it for me. Then anything with a dust finish just sucks. too much grip on the trigger for rake'ing it.

Youve also gotten further into subsets of all triggers: Materials they are made out of: Carbon Fiber vs. Delrin vs. Aluminum. And yet another subset of Aluminum Triggers: Gloss vs Dust.

[RogueFactor]

Maybe I should also be asking....who has triggers for the Mag...

I see AGD,RPG and Tuna.....are there others (that are in still in production) ??

I make triggers for mech AGD frames. Tuna makes triggers for the E-mag. AGD makes stock triggers for both.

[MoeMag]

Okay so my mind is wandering with a few beers behind the keyboard... I was still thinking about the g-force p frame trigger thing.

so yeah... I like my CF single trigger the best. I actually like it on my x-valve (and my classic cause its snappy) because its a great match with my valve for going reactive.

but...

here is a mag trigger you probably missed...
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d53/MoeRoark/Trigger.jpg

[Anjin3515]

A: The argument you are making amounts to “it’s all in your head,” which anyone who has shot these various types of triggers can attest is untrue — there are real physical differences in the way each of these types operate.


B: By the way, the OP did NOT specifically say he was looking for an AGD trigger. He gave AGD triggers as examples, but he does not specifically indicate he is looking strictly for AGD triggers.

C: We are not talking about the sense "feel" but "trigger feel" -- the sum total of the physical, mechanical properties of a particular trigger in relation to activating it. This includes trigger geometry, pull weight, sideplay, etc. all very tangible and objectively measurable. It is a property of the trigger and/or the marker, not the sense of the person touching it.


A: No matter what the physical differences are....the way each of us will interpret these is subjective....yes there are real world objective things you can measure about a trigger...but even with these objective points people will individually feel different about each trigger....so for me at least I don't care about the physical difference....I want to know what the majority subjectively felt was their preference.....

B: That was an over site and mistake on my part....I had thought being on a Mag forum and using Mag triggers as reference with each choice would get across I was looking for a Mag trigger preference. I was mistaken in this and in the future will try to be more clear.

C: To me "feel" is preference. As in...this feels good, this feels uncomfortable....these are subjective statements. I don't think...and maybe I am wrong...but I don't think anyone is thinking about trigger geometry and pull weight when they pick up a gun and pull the trigger.....they are simply thinking...this "feels" good or this "feels" bad. Now..later on if they want to dive into why it might feel one way or another they may figure out it was the trigger geometry or pull weight...what I am trying to get at is what everyones preference is.

Yes as you said "This includes trigger geometry, pull weight, sideplay, etc. all very tangible and objectively measurable. It is a property of the trigger and/or the marker, not the sense of the person touching it." It may be a property of the trigger....but as i stated above...each person will interpret these differently...allow me an example. Car "X" can go 0-60 in 7 seconds....you can measure this...it is objective. It is a property of the car. However....you may "feel" that this is slow acceleration...I may "feel" it is adequate acceleration...Bill Shatner may feel it is too fast. Our sense of acceleration and how it feels were all different, and all correct, no matter the measurable property of the car. Hope that makes sense....its late and I dont know if it makes sense.....

I do see where you are coming from. But for me...I just want the final preference of this community about how they as individuals "feel" about different triggers.... I mean different MAG triggers ;) (see I almost did it again)



WOW...all this over a little poll about triggers.... :eek: ....errr a poll about MAG triggers I mean......

[RogueFactor]

We are not talking about the sense "feel" but "trigger feel" -- the sum total of the physical, mechanical properties of a particular trigger in relation to activating it. This includes trigger geometry, pull weight, sideplay, etc. all very tangible and objectively measurable. It is a property of the trigger and/or the marker, not the sense of the person touching it.

And all those properties are perceived by the user individually. Which is "feel". And subjective. Feel, having been the premise of your original statement quoted in small print below.


Whose classifications are these? Yours? What do you consider an "edge"? I define it as a curve along which a finger is meant to actuate the trigger. Blade triggers have one (convex or concave), wave/scythe triggers have two (convex and concave), as do double triggers (concave and concave).

Classifications of a manufacturer, who makes and sells these things daily. Of all styles.

The edge of a trigger is where the top surface and the side surface meet. If that edge has no hump, its a single edge and considered a blade trigger. If there is a hump in that edge, it is double-edged and considered a double trigger. This was made clear in my previous posts.



No they are not subjective, they are tangible properties of the trigger system -- the PREFERENCES of wrist angle and the angles at which individuals hold their wrists are subjective and variable from person to person. So whether a particular trigger arrangement “works” for a person or not is what is subjective, NOT the properties of the trigger arrangement, such as the wrist angle it works best at. The argument you are making amounts to “it’s all in your head,” which anyone who has shot these various types of triggers can attest is untrue — there are real physical differences in the way each of these types operate.

Note I did not mention these properties as a means for classification, which I am SURE you are aware of, so that is a distractive argument.

The point I and others have made is, despite the classifications in the poll above, there is an important distinction to be made between types of triggers which have been lumped together, which is why you see so many people picking “blade” ... The great majority these days are either blade or wave/scythe type; but there is a much greater divergence between these two types because they are absolutely two different types of triggers and have very different properties.

Those tangible properties mean nothing outside the context of a user. Without the subjectiveness, its merely a piece of material. That is a distractive argument though. I digress...

Your very first statement relative to this conversation was:

There is certainly enough difference in feel to make lumping them together undesirable for the purposes of a poll like this. The wave type triggers move the point of contact a lot further out toward the middle finger.

So you started with the difference in feel. And now have changed your premise to being a matter of 'tangible properties'. Which was not your original position, and as youve admitted you didnt state any tangible properties, the point being?...

We are at an impass, and will have to agree to disagree. I can write volumes in retort, but feel the effort is futile. You have made your position(and further changed it to fit your argument) and I have made mine. I dont see either of us relenting to the other.


By the way, the OP did NOT specifically say he was looking for an AGD trigger. He gave AGD triggers as examples, but he does not specifically indicate he is looking strictly for AGD triggers.

You are right, he did not specifically state that. Being on a mag forum, and listing only mag triggers in a poll wasnt specific. True. I guess some experience with answering these questions daily gave me some foresight you dont have to know what he was asking for. I could have been wrong, but wasnt. :cheers:

[Anjin3515]

I make triggers for mech AGD frames. Tuna makes triggers for the E-mag. AGD makes stock triggers for both.

Ahhh...but at least from viewing the Magsmith....there are no Viperblades to be had.....and that is, if any, the first one I would try.....sweet looking black beauty that it is!

.....also I just have a hunch that I am either a "blade" or a "single trigger" type of guy ...I am used to the Tippmann A-5 single trigger...so a blade would be a new experiance...but what I am used to may not be what is best.

and Moe: what ever you said sounded very interesting.... it also sounded like greek to me...
Forward and backward stops, travel adjust, and magnetic and/or spring tension adjustors,micro switches,optics with a magnetic return,Hall sensor...Im too noob to really understand :tard: ...but your points on material are great info that I had not even thought about before.

[drg]

And all those properties are perceived by the user individually. Which is "feel". And subjective. Feel, having been the premise of your original statement quoted in small print below.

The perception is subjective. The properties are not.


Classifications of a manufacturer, who makes and sells these things daily. Of all styles.

1. That is one manufacturer's classifications. There are no industry standard definitions for these terms. 2. He is not asking the question as a prospective manufacturer, but as a prospective user.


The edge of a trigger is where the top surface and the side surface meet. If that edge has no hump, its a single edge and considered a blade trigger. If there is a hump in that edge, it is double-edged and considered a double trigger. This was made clear in my previous posts.

This illustrates well why what you think about as a manufacturer is not always the end-all answer (as seems to be the angle you take in most discussions here, as far as I have seen). I have also made clear in my posts that I have a different set of definitions, which, I submit, are more relevant to the end-user.


Those tangible properties mean nothing outside the context of a user. Without the subjectiveness, its merely a piece of material.

The truth, as is quite often the case, is in the grey area between. It simply cannot be denied that the physical properties of the trigger -- which include its shape -- are very important to the ultimate perception of that trigger. What that perception is, obviously, will vary.


Your very first statement relative to this conversation was:


So you started with the difference in feel. And now have changed your premise to being a matter of 'tangible properties'. Which was not your original position, and as youve admitted you didnt state any tangible properties, the point being?...

Yes, and by feel, as I clarified later, I mean trigger feel, the physical properties of the trigger.


We are at an impass, and will have to agree to disagree. I can write volumes in retort, but feel the effort is futile. You have made your position(and further changed it to fit your argument) and I have made mine. I dont see either of us relenting to the other.

I clarified it, I did not change it.


You are right, he did not specifically state that. Being on a mag forum, and listing only mag triggers in a poll wasnt specific. True. I guess some experience with answering these questions daily gave me some foresight you dont have to know what he was asking for. I could have been wrong, but wasnt. :cheers:

That remains to be seen. He could suddenly decide the Ego trigger solution is attractive and look to do a full frame conversion. :rofl:

Furthermore, being a dyed-in-the-wool mechanical 'mag guy cannot help but color your opinions. The trigger shape takes on less and less significance the heavier the trigger is. As most mech mags are not usually walked, the differences between a simple curve and compound curve trigger shape are far less significant. In fact I'd go so far as to say that the wave/scythe type trigger is designed FOR walking.

In the end though, if the OP ever gets the chance to fire even the two triggers listed as “blades” in the poll choices, he will find that they are indeed two completely different types of triggers both physically and metaphysically.

[RogueFactor]

Ahhh...but at least from viewing the Magsmith....there are no Viperblades to be had.....and that is, if any, the first one I would try.....sweet looking black beauty that it is!

.....also I just have a hunch that I am either a "blade" or a "single trigger" type of guy ...I am used to the Tippmann A-5 single trigger...so a blade would be a new experiance...but what I am used to may not be what is best.

and Moe: what ever you said sounded very interesting.... it also sounded like greek to me...
Forward and backward stops, travel adjust, and magnetic and/or spring tension adjustors,micro switches,optics with a magnetic return,Hall sensor...Im too noob to really understand :tard: ...but your points on material are great info that I had not even thought about before.

Ok, well I hope this doesnt muddie the waters then.

If I had to choose a trigger off the internet(like you), Id choose the ViperBlade(based on looks). Having used both the Viper and Splinter though, Id choose the Splinter based on feel. The edge of a Viperblade has a hard edge, the edge of the Splinter trigger is scalloped. For me, this makes the Splinter a more comfortable trigger.

Ive had my opinion asked of the 2 triggers many times, and Ive always answered it that way.

The one thing that ClassicMagger said that was true, was the hump on the Splinter is as minimal as it can be while being a double trigger. ClassicMagger prefers blade triggers, but loves the Splinter---which is why he wants to consider the Splinter more of a blade trigger(or hybrid).

[RogueFactor]

Yes, and by feel, as I clarified later, I mean trigger feel, the physical properties of the trigger.

I clarified it, I did not change it.

Yes, you changed it.

You have attempted still to use the word "feel" in the term "trigger feel" to define "physical properties". There are no definitions of the word feel that would fit your own personal definition of physical properties for the term 'trigger feel' you invented. Therefore you changed it to fit your argument.

If you think you are right, just show me somewhere in a dictionary that defines the term feel, as "physcial properties" outside the context of being touched.


That remains to be seen.
You must have missed some of his posts...its very clearly been stated and seen:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2409596&postcount=34


Furthermore, being a dyed-in-the-wool mechanical 'mag guy cannot help but color your opinions. The trigger shape takes on less and less significance the heavier the trigger is. As most mech mags are not usually walked, the differences between a simple curve and compound curve trigger shape are far less significant.
That dyed-in-wool mech guy I am doesnt limit my experience with electro markers, or those with electro-like pulls. I have owned E-mags(electronic), DevilMags(electronic), hAir trigger(pneumatic frame with an electro feel), Hyperframed mag(electro), Boo-Yah mag(electronic), as well as all the mechs.

I have shot Ion's, Vikings, Timmies, Angels, Cockers, Cyborgs, and Ego's.
I also have also owned a Matrix and a Mini.

[drg]

Yes, you changed it.

You have attempted still to use the word "feel" in the term "trigger feel" to define "physical properties". There are no definitions of the word feel that would fit your own personal definition of "physical properties". Therefore you changed it to fit your argument.

If you think you are right, just show me somewhere in a dictionary that defines the term feel, as "physcial properties" outside the context of being touched.

You do realize that idiomatic expressions and compound terms can have different meanings from their component words, right?

Search around a little on how the term "trigger feel" is used in general parlance. Almost exclusively you will find that it is thought of as a property of the weapon, not the user.


You must have missed some of his posts...its very clearly been stated and seen:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2409596&postcount=34

Well, that was kind of a joke. ;)


That dyed-in-wool mech guy I am doesnt limit my experience with electro markers, or those with electro-like pulls. I have owned E-mags(electronic), DevilMags(electronic), hAir trigger(pneumatic frame with an electro feel), Hyperframed mag(electro), Boo-Yah mag(electronic), as well as all the mechs.

I have shot Ion's, Vikings, Timmies, Angels, Cockers, Cyborgs, and Ego's.
I also have also owned a Matrix and a Mini.

However it is mech mags you choose to manufacture parts for, and that is what I am talking about by that reference. You approach the analysis from the position of manufacturer of mech mag parts, which IMO does disservice to the end-user seeking a real response on "feel" -- objectively or subjectively.

[RogueFactor]

Oops, forgot to address these 2 topics:


2. He is not asking the question as a prospective manufacturer, but as a prospective user.

Agreed. I happen to be both an end-user, and a manufacturer.


This illustrates well why what you think about as a manufacturer is not always the end-all answer (as seems to be the angle you take in most discussions here, as far as I have seen). I have also made clear in my posts that I have a different set of definitions, which, I submit, are more relevant to the end-user.

Being the end-user you are illustrates well why you have a limited scope to speak from, and as such will have a limited viewpoint to advise from.

As an end-user, you lack the knowledge that being a manufacturer has given. Or the feedback from the 1000's of users I have acquired. Or the experience of having tested all styles and shapes of triggers on the market to manufacture the ones I do. Or the knowledge that comes from other manufacturers in the industry who have made the triggers you speak of. And the experience from the trial & error from having made triggers in different shapes and sizes that have never been on the market.

And of course, I too am an end-user.

So, I submit that your set of definitions are less relevant, as I am not only an end-user but also a manufacturer and have some knowledge that you may not. Even with your half-cocker knowledge and experience.

[drg]

I think you think a little too highly of your ideas to the point that it is detrimental to many discussions I have seen you involved in.

All that vaunted manufacturer perspective doesn't amount to anything other than distraction and misinformation in this thread.

The bottom line is that to place the AGD Pro-blade and single-curve blade triggers like it and the Viperblade compound curve trigger and "recurve"/"wave"/"scythe" triggers like it in the same category of "feel" -- in ANY sense of the word as relates to paintball gun triggers -- is ludicrous.

And frankly, you are being ludicrous if you assert same.

Now before you chime in with the fact that the OP did not mention "feel" in his post ... discussing preference without discussing feel is also ludicrous.

[RogueFactor]

You do realize that idiomatic expressions and compound terms can have different meanings from their component words, right?

Is this your way of admitting you made the word up? :rofl:



Search around a little on how the term "trigger feel" is used in general parlance. Almost exclusively you will find that it is thought of as a property of the weapon, not the user.

Id be interested to have you show me where the term "trigger feel" as youve defined it is used in general parlance. If used in general discussion, you should be able to easily find it as youve described.



However it is mech mags you choose to manufacture parts for, and that is what I am talking about by that reference. You approach the analysis from the position of manufacturer of mech mag parts, which IMO does disservice to the end-user seeking a real response on "feel" -- objectively or subjectively.

Interestingly, you know less than you purport.

[drg]

Id be interested to have you show me where the term "trigger feel" as youve defined it is used in general parlance. If used in general discussion, you should be able to easily find it as youve described.

Sigh. I will do your homework exactly once in this thread.


Every rifle is different, and each one has a different trigger feel and pull.
http://www.army.com/articles/item/1958


You can get a nice trigger on a Ruger (don't compare GP trigger feel to SP trigger feel because they are different and the GP is vastly superior to the SP for nice trigger feel).
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:c7bcd2sXpd0J:www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D163094+%22trigger+feel%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us&client=firefox-a


ust wanted to thank you for the great work you did on my XD45acp Tactical. The trigger feel is phenomenal. My groups have tightened up significantly.
http://www.springerprecision.com/reviews.asp


When I owned Ruger revolvers I always wanted to send them for trigger work to improve their lackluster trigger feel.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59582


This conversion fulfills both of these requirements. The trigger feel is identical to the standard Glock. I have a 3.5 connector, and everything is polished. The trigger feels the same whether I have the 22LR upper on, or the 9mm upper.
http://glocktalk.com/sitemap/topic/371272-1.html


Due to the sliding nature of this mechanical interface, the sear 2 and hammer 4 generally must be precisely machined so as to provide and ensure smooth and even surfaces on both the hammer and sear, so as to provide a smooth and crisp trigger feel during shooting to avoid catching or hesitation during firing, which can lead to misfires and affect the aim of the shooter.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20050246932.html

Ad infinitum ...

[RogueFactor]

All that vaunted manufacturer perspective doesn't amount to anything other than distraction and misinformation in this thread.

The only person that makes that determination in this case is the OP. And he has found this info informative, regardless of your position.

The only distraction and misinformation is that which you have presented in an attempt to appear educated on the subject.


The bottom line is that to place the AGD Pro-blade and single-curve blade triggers like it and the Viperblade compound curve trigger and "recurve"/"wave"/"scythe" triggers like it in the same category of "feel" -- in ANY sense of the word as relates to paintball gun triggers -- is ludicrous.

Ludicrous I say!

Nah, ludicrous is having a discussion with someone who wants to define their words with their own dictionary or hide behind their fallacies with idioms.


And frankly, you are being ludicrous if you assert same.

Now before you chime in with the fact that the OP did not mention "feel" in his post ... discussing preference without discussing feel is also ludicrous.

There is little need to assert or chime in. As Ive already stated...


We are at an impass, and will have to agree to disagree. I can write volumes in retort, but feel the effort is futile. You have made your position(and further changed it to fit your argument) and I have made mine. I dont see either of us relenting to the other.

[RogueFactor]

Sigh. I will do your homework exactly once in this thread.


http://www.army.com/articles/item/1958


http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:c7bcd2sXpd0J:www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D163094+%22trigger+feel%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us&client=firefox-a


http://www.springerprecision.com/reviews.asp


http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59582


http://glocktalk.com/sitemap/topic/371272-1.html


http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20050246932.html

Ad infinitum ...



As do you.

Still waiting for the link with the term 'trigger feel' used as an idiom in the context of "tangible properties" as youve defined it.

As theyve been presented above, they are used in context as to the feel of the individual user. Which follows the textbook definiton of the word.

K, thanks.

[drg]

The only person that makes that determination in this case is the OP. And he has found this info informative, regardless of your position.

Can your ego allow you to admit that he also explicitly said he has found our information useful as well?


The only distraction and misinformation is that which you have presented in an attempt to appear educated on the subject.

Please. I am not the one trying to assert that for purposes of preference the straight blade and compound curve triggers belong in the same category. Your sales figures, while helpful in a general sense -- and impressive to the self-admitted noob OP -- amount to little in the big picture of trigger preferences. The AGD market is a very small pond and the choices are very limited. They also mean little in the very specific case of the OP's ultimate trigger preferences.


Ludicrous I say!

Nah, ludicrous is having a discussion with someone who wants to define their words with their own dictionary or hide behind their fallacies with idioms.

Straw man much? Question is, if you truly believe that, then why do it?

Are you going to address what I actually said rather than the words making up what I said?


There is little need to assert or chime in. As Ive already stated...

Can your ego allow you to leave it at that, or do you need the last word again?

[drg]

Still waiting for the link with the term 'trigger feel' used as an idiom in the context of "tangible properties" as youve defined it.

As theyve been presented above, they are used in context as to the feel of the individual user. Which follows the textbook definiton of the word.

K, thanks.

Honestly, do you find covering your ears and yelling "lalalala!" to be an effective argument often?

Every one of those quotes, particularly the first one, speaks of trigger feel as an aspect of the gun's physical character. Whether the person likes the trigger feel or not is subjective, however that does not change the physical feel of the trigger.

That you can stare at a statemenet like "Every rifle is different, and each one has a different trigger feel and pull." and say the person is not saying the trigger pull is an aspect of the weapon .... is ... well, I'd say mystifying but it's probably just disingenuous. It is also against what basic English grammar tells us.

Perception springs from physical reality (in normal persons), so the physical and metaphysical definitions of "feel" (as pertains to triggers) are inexorably linked regardless.

If you were to press a person who liked the "feel" of a certain trigger for reasons "why" -- almost always that person could identify measurable, concrete aspects of the trigger's action as contributing to this perception -- it's shorter, it's lighter, it's less fatiguing (geometrically more compatible), it's faster.

[going_home]

Lets see DRG and RF go on that one a while . :rofl:

Wheres Army at anyways ?
:D

[MedicDVG]

Army and I are over here in Iraq where it is safe from you guys..

Jeesh... ask a simple question and the whole forum starts the Strategic Summit on Triggers with a report of the sub committee on style and a working task memorandum on feel backed up by research into military and firearms by way of background justification.

hmmmm you guys should work for Uncle... you would fit right in.

[Anjin3515]

I respect and value the opinion of Rogue as both a user and his unique viewpoint as a manufacture. Especially as a manufacture of one of the popular mech Mag triggers. So yes I do take what he says with a little more weight.

I respect and value the opinion of drg, he has brought up useful information and pointed out things that I had no knowledge of, or may have never thought to look into.

I thank you both.

But please....there is no need to argue over a trigger.

We are all people passionate about Mags and paintball...were on the "same team". ...I do think Rogue and drg are at an impasse and cant find common ground. Thats ok. Its alright to disagree. But there is little point now in the continuation of said impasse. I think as Rogue put it....you two should agree to disagree.

But fear not..both of you have added value and knowledge to my endeavor......and yes I am trying to moderate my own post and calm everyone down a little...as i said in the long run we are all "on the same team"

I put up the poll so I could gather information, and learn somethings. I like to do research before i dive into something. Everyone here has helped....even Moemag (just razzin you man)

I for my part should have been more clear with my wording and intentions for the poll. Something I have now learned for future posts.

[Anjin3515]

Ok, well I hope this doesnt muddie the waters then.

If I had to choose a trigger off the internet(like you), Id choose the ViperBlade(based on looks). Having used both the Viper and Splinter though, Id choose the Splinter based on feel. The edge of a Viperblade has a hard edge, the edge of the Splinter trigger is scalloped. For me, this makes the Splinter a more comfortable trigger.

Ive had my opinion asked of the 2 triggers many times, and Ive always answered it that way.

The one thing that ClassicMagger said that was true, was the hump on the Splinter is as minimal as it can be while being a double trigger. ClassicMagger prefers blade triggers, but loves the Splinter---which is why he wants to consider the Splinter more of a blade trigger(or hybrid).

See here I find a interesting bit of knowledge based on the fact Rogue is a manufacture....
He stated above that "Most mag users choose blade style triggers(whether that be a scythe or not) over double triggers. The selling ratio of the ViperBlade vs Splinter Pro is 5:1."

However he also says his preference is the Splinter trigger. He has assess to raw data on what people prefer....but he himself seems to prefer something other then the majority.

That to me is interesting.....

[Pneumagger]

I chose "other" simply because when I get home from the field i hand carve all my triggers from bones of defeated enemies.
It's a male dominance thing. :argh:

Edit: if it's any help to you, I like to make mine like the RPG Viperblade Pro.

[MANN]

Lets see DRG and RF go on that one a while . :rofl:

Wheres Army at anyways ?
:D

Actually global warming is teh troof. Monday it was 90*F, and Today it is going to be a whopping 91*F.

BTW college football starts today, and that means you can start drinking at 9am again. :cheers: GO VOLS

[drg]

I respect and value the opinion of Rogue as both a user and his unique viewpoint as a manufacture. Especially as a manufacture of one of the popular mech Mag triggers. So yes I do take what he says with a little more weight.

I respect and value the opinion of drg, he has brought up useful information and pointed out things that I had no knowledge of, or may have never thought to look into.

I thank you both.

But please....there is no need to argue over a trigger.

We are all people passionate about Mags and paintball...were on the "same team". ...I do think Rogue and drg are at an impasse and cant find common ground. Thats ok. Its alright to disagree. But there is little point now in the continuation of said impasse. I think as Rogue put it....you two should agree to disagree.

But fear not..both of you have added value and knowledge to my endeavor......and yes I am trying to moderate my own post and calm everyone down a little...as i said in the long run we are all "on the same team"

I put up the poll so I could gather information, and learn somethings. I like to do research before i dive into something. Everyone here has helped....even Moemag (just razzin you man)

I for my part should have been more clear with my wording and intentions for the poll. Something I have now learned for future posts.

I'm sorry it has devolved as such but I have never seen Rogue concede a point in any discussion I have seen him take part in. As I'm not inclined to do the same, I guess the result was inevitable.

My only intent was to make sure you knew that the two triggers you have grouped under "blade" triggers are indeed very different, no matter what classification system you use. You will surely find a much less agreement among users of those two types of triggers than when pitting those two grouped together against double triggers or a vague "other" ...

[frischtr]

I'm happy with my Fireblade, so I voted other...

[warbeak2099]

If scythes and blades were the same type of trigger, then they would be the same shape. IMO triggers should be grouped by their shape and feel. Scythes are a different shape than straight blade triggers. Blade triggers are flat and straight, scythes are fluidly bent. Saying they are the same shape is like saying a square has the same shape as a circle.

[RogueFactor]

See here I find a interesting bit of knowledge based on the fact Rogue is a manufacture....
He stated above that "Most mag users choose blade style triggers(whether that be a scythe or not) over double triggers. The selling ratio of the ViperBlade vs Splinter Pro is 5:1."

However he also says his preference is the Splinter trigger. He has assess to raw data on what people prefer....but he himself seems to prefer something other then the majority.

That to me is interesting.....

Consider this then...Those who have had the chance to use both the ViperBlade and Splinter Trigger have chosen the Splinter as often as the ViperBlade. So the 5:1 ratio diminishes to 2:1-1:1 when the user gets the chance to use and feel both triggers.

I like both triggers. I choose the ViperBlade based on looks, the Splinter based on feel.


If scythes and blades were the same type of trigger, then they would be the same shape. IMO triggers should be grouped by their shape and feel. Scythes are a different shape than straight blade triggers. Blade triggers are flat and straight, scythes are fluidly bent. Saying they are the same shape is like saying a square has the same shape as a circle.

Triggers, like most everything else, are classified from general to specific. Had Anjin chosen a Double trigger, the difference between blade triggers wouldnt matter.

[sup909]

You know, I have used double and blade triggers and all that, and it is probably just me but I never really was able to fire very fast with them.

I just could never get my fingers moving fast enough to rattle off 15+ balls per second. Never have been a particularly good speedballer. In the end I just alike the single as it fits more nicely with my hand, considering I am not putting out the rate of paint anyway.

[Anjin3515]

I'm sorry it has devolved as such but I have never seen Rogue concede a point in any discussion I have seen him take part in. As I'm not inclined to do the same, I guess the result was inevitable.

My only intent was to make sure you knew that the two triggers you have grouped under "blade" triggers are indeed very different, no matter what classification system you use. You will surely find a much less agreement among users of those two types of triggers than when pitting those two grouped together against double triggers or a vague "other" ...

I am glad you participated....I have gained new knowledge from what you have expressed. Until now I didn't even know there was a Scythe style. Its good to know that.

[swampy455]

personally, i like the carbon fiber single trigger frame because its more comfertable on mr :)

[Anjin3515]

personally, i like the carbon fiber single trigger frame because its more comfertable on mr :)


I am interested in this one for sure. Its similar to the A-5 trigger that I am used to....

Heres a question...is the Carbon Fiber grip/trigger lighter then the others...I would guess yes due to the weight of the material.....but the others may be lighter...I have no clue....

[drg]

It probably is lighter than the pot metal one, but it's pretty negligible imo, especially on that type of trigger.

[Don Carnage]

The Viperblade Pro is the most comfortable trigger I've used on a paintball gun.

I started with a Carbon single trigger----It was OK. Felt a lot like the single trigger in the A-5 I had just replaced with automags.
Then I got an AGD Blade Trigger-----Never really got used to it.
Then I got my Viper Pro---the shape is more comfortable. The trigger stops are nice to have. And it looks the best too.