Message to AGD:

[Ratt]

Tom, I have an idea that I would like to share with you. Could you please contact me? ramirezr@cg63.navy.mil

[Argelmcgee]

Tom is no longer President of AGD.

[DevilMan]

Hey Ratt.... off topic, but if you get a chance to play at Tama Hills let me know....

DM

[AGD]

Talk to me here.

AGD

[luke]

Tom is no longer President of AGD.

Yes. But he still owns the company. ;)

[speed_ga]

he's not accepting any ideas right now. He's cleaning out the basement where he stores the last of AGD's stock. And when he does sell the rest of the stock there will be a big RIP sign next to every airgun design part ever made!

I know I know your probley looking like this right now-> :tard:

But rest assure take your idea to a company that wants to make it into the future of paintball.

[AGD]

Hey Speedy, your hanging out here why??? Seems to me you should be solving the big problems in the paintball world.

AGD

[Anjin3515]

he's not accepting any ideas right now. He's cleaning out the basement where he stores the last of AGD's stock. And when he does sell the rest of the stock there will be a big RIP sign next to every airgun design part ever made!

I know I know your probley looking like this right now-> :tard:

But rest assure take your idea to a company that wants to make it into the future of paintball.


Im just guessing here....but I think that AGD and Automags will be around long after you stop playing paintball......

[questionful]

Tom, here's my idea. It's probably been thought of and used before, but you never know. . .

It's just an RT-style reg with a different kind of spring. I haven't thought about it that much, but I know it is worth experimenting with potential. And, if it hasn't been patented already, the spring mechanism could be used for all sorts of stuff. Basically, the spring has a carrier on each end. Each carrier rides on different threads (one could ride on a threaded shaft inside the spring, the other could ride on female threads encasing the spring). The threads are very steep, machined, and not necessarily regular throughout (like, their angle changes). By changing the difference between the angles of the threads, the spring's movement/force (pardon my terminology) ratio can be changed. The whole point of this is that the regulator spring would move the poppet very slowly, until desired pressure is reached, at which point the poppet suddenly blitzes closed. So, instead of the RT's "full-pressure recharge", a valve with the spring system describe above would have "full-pressure, FULL-FLOW recharge." I know no physics, so I don't know how this would practically work out, but being the all-mighty Tom K, :hail: what do you think?

[stevewar]

he's not accepting any ideas right now. He's cleaning out the basement where he stores the last of AGD's stock. And when he does sell the rest of the stock there will be a big RIP sign next to every airgun design part ever made!

I know I know your probley looking like this right now-> :tard:

But rest assure take your idea to a company that wants to make it into the future of paintball.


UGH, Tom and others have as recently as yesterday stated that they aren't going anywhere.

[LK-13]

Talk to me here.

AGD

OK,
uh.........
i have some projects that I'm working on,
mostly putting AutoMags of one verity or another into Wood Stocks.
the reason i have chosen to use AutoMags is because of the easily adapted trigger set up
and the sleek in line design which lends itself well to being placed into a Wood Stock.
now i have discovered these threads that seem to be sounding the death knell of AGD.
is AGD really in this much trouble?
is AGD really close to shutting it's doors for ever?
what is the state of AGD and should we be worried?

[questionful]

OK,
uh.........
i have some projects that I'm working on,
mostly putting AutoMags of one verity or another into Wood Stocks.
the reason i have chosen to use AutoMags is because of the easily adapted trigger set up
and the sleek in line design which lends itself well to being placed into a Wood Stock.
now i have discovered these threads that seem to be sounding the death knell of AGD.
is AGD really in this much trouble?
is AGD really close to shutting it's doors for ever?
what is the state of AGD and should we be worried?
No already! Go buy mags and put them in stocks and be happy and rejoice a company is alive and making quality products. :p

[warbeak2099]

AGD is neither slowly dying nor doing outstanding with respect to the paintball market. They are simply in a state of existence. They don't try to put themselves out there, otherwise they would be an even bigger part of the scenario market. They just sit in stagnation. Great products, bad marketing and apparently no drive, ambition, or enthusiasm.

[questionful]

AGD is neither slowly dying nor doing outstanding with respect to the paintball market. They are simply in a state of existence. They don't try to put themselves out there, otherwise they would be an even bigger part of the scenario market. They just sit in stagnation. Great products, bad marketing and apparently no drive, ambition, or enthusiasm.
Man, do you know the issues they're facing? I don't either, but I'm sure it takes drive and ambition to just screw marketing and just make a quality product in today's economy.

[warbeak2099]

Man, do you know the issues they're facing? I don't either, but I'm sure it takes drive and ambition to just screw marketing and just make a quality product in today's economy.

......

Yes you're right, it takes an incredible amount of drive to create a good product and then do a half-assed job of selling it.

[questionful]

......

Yes you're right, it takes an incredible amount of drive to create a good product and then do a half-assed job of selling it.
Would you rather they made a half-assed product and did a good job of selling it?

[CKY_Alliance]

Would you rather they made a half-assed product and did a good job of selling it?


No, but why have a great product it you don't market it?

Why have one without the other?

[Lomarandil]

Tom, here's my idea. It's probably been thought of and used before, but you never know. . .

It's just an RT-style reg with a different kind of spring. I haven't thought about it that much, but I know it is worth experimenting with potential. And, if it hasn't been patented already, the spring mechanism could be used for all sorts of stuff. Basically, the spring has a carrier on each end. Each carrier rides on different threads (one could ride on a threaded shaft inside the spring, the other could ride on female threads encasing the spring). The threads are very steep, machined, and not necessarily regular throughout (like, their angle changes). By changing the difference between the angles of the threads, the spring's movement/force (pardon my terminology) ratio can be changed. The whole point of this is that the regulator spring would move the poppet very slowly, until desired pressure is reached, at which point the poppet suddenly blitzes closed. So, instead of the RT's "full-pressure recharge", a valve with the spring system describe above would have "full-pressure, FULL-FLOW recharge." I know no physics, so I don't know how this would practically work out, but being the all-mighty Tom K, :hail: what do you think?

Qful.. I like the idea, although the implementation might be tricky..

Lo

[AGD]

Quest,

The spring you describe sounds great but can not be made. In any case, the RT valve does slam wide open for full flow and then slams shut. The spring around the poppet valve actually has little to do with it, its all in the air flow against the piston. Keep thinking up ideas though!

AGD

[sdlm_]

What about this?

Design a Blow forward internally similar to the Automag, however instead of a sear use Air Pressure to hold back the bolt, and use a little pnuematic piston to close the on/off (I.e a piston where one side is has a much larger surface area to allow low pressure to close the hp on/off)...

When you pull the trigger, it moves a three way valve, venting the air holding the bolt back, and putting air into the bottom of a new on//off piston to close the flow through the marker.

As I understand Patents, this gets around PTPs patent, due to the fact that there is no sear to automate. It could fire very fast, have more or less he same relability as an Automag, and only minor changes would have to take place in the body (There could be no sear groove, just a 10-32 hole for QEV or the like). With the addition of an O-ring I do believe normal Automag bolts could even be used.

More importantly unlike homemade pneumag conversations, this wouldn't really need any adjusting, just put the LPR up to wherever it needs to be, and put some setscrews in the trigger to determine the pull and you are ready to go.

I am sorry if such an Idea has already been presented.

[Ratt]

Okay...now for the real reason this thread was created...My idea:

It may not even be feasable (due to the SP patent crap), but I still feel it is worth looking into. I am sure you have read or heard about the Navy's plan to build and install a Rail Gun on its ships. I have been wondering for a while if that concept could be scaled down and utilized in a paintball gun. I am not an engineer, so there are a myriad of specifics that I do not have, but the basic concept is this: a bolt sits between two rails (an anode and a cathode). When the trigger is pulled, electrical current runs from the positive terminal of the power supply up the positive rail, through the bolt, and down the negative rail, back to the power supply. This flow of current makes the railgun act like an electromagnet, creating a powerful magnetic field in the region of the rails up to the position of the bolt. In accordance with the right-hand rule, the created magnetic field circulates around each conductor. Since the current flows in opposite direction along each rail, the net magnetic field between the rails is directed vertically. In combination with the current flowing across the bolt, this produces a Lorentz force which accelerates the bolt along the rails. There are also forces acting on the rails attempting to push them apart, but since the rails are firmly mounted they cannot move. The bolt slides up the rails away from the end with the power supply, resulting in the paintball (which is sitting in front of the bolt) to shoot out of the barrel. The bolt can be returned to the pre-firing condition by a spring.

One positive aspect I can think of is that the gun would be airless (no more bulky tank on the back of your gun). I am guessing that one major obstacle would be power - having a system that uses electricity to create the magnetic opposing force needed to move the bolt forward at @280 fps may require a lot of juice, meaning a big battery, or small batteries with less life. Like I said, I am not an engineer, so I don't really have a lot of specifics. But, I am sure that someone with the time and money it would take to R&D this might be able to pull it of. I figure, if anyone has the means or knowledge to do it, it might be you. What do you think?

Devil - Nah, I haven't managed to make it out to Tama Hills. We have been underway a lot. We are just about finished with our summer cruise. I am going to try to set something up for October or November, and see if I can drag some of the guys out there with me. In the past 8 months, I have bought about 4 guns that I have yet to take out on the field. I really would like to get some paint through them.

And to the butthole idiot who said AGD is dead, and to take my idea somewhere else: I really don't have anything to say to you. Just go away.

[cyrus-the-virus]

No, but why have a great product it you don't market it?

Why have one without the other?

Smart parts, tippmann, and WGP seem to get along fine. Except they're the other way around.

[cyrus-the-virus]

Okay...now for the realy reason this thread was created...My idea:

It may not even be feasable (due to the SP patent crap), but I still feel it is worth looking into. I am sure you have read or heard about the Navy's plan to build and install a Rail Gun on its ships. I have been wondering for a while if that concept could be scaled down and utilized in a paintball gun. I am not an engineer, so there are a myriad of specifics that I do not have, but the basic concept is this: a bolt sits between two rails (an anode and a cathode). When the trigger is pulled, electrical current runs from the positive terminal of the power supply up the positive rail, through the bolt, and down the negative rail, back to the power supply. This flow of current makes the railgun act like an electromagnet, creating a powerful magnetic field in the region of the rails up to the position of the bolt. In accordance with the right-hand rule, the created magnetic field circulates around each conductor. Since the current flows in opposite direction along each rail, the net magnetic field between the rails is directed vertically. In combination with the current flowing across the bolt, this produces a Lorentz force which accelerates the bolt along the rails. There are also forces acting on the rails attempting to push them apart, but since the rails are firmly mounted they cannot move. The bolt slides up the rails away from the end with the power supply, resulting in the paintball (which is sitting in front of the bolt) to shoot out of the barrel. The bolt can be returned to the pre-firing condition by a spring.

One positive aspect I can think of is that the gun would be airless (no more bulky tank on the back of your gun). I am guessing that one major obstacle would be power - having a system that uses electricity to create the magnetic opposing force needed to move the bolt forward at @280 fps may require a lot of juice, meaning a big battery, or small batteries with less life. Like I said, I am not an engineer, so I don't really have a lot of specifics. But, I am sure that someone with the time and money it would take to R&D this might be able to pull it of. I figure, if anyone has the means or knowledge to do it, it might be you. What do you think?

Devil - Nah, I haven't managed to make it out to Tama Hills. We have been underway a lot. We are just about finished with our summer cruise. I am going to try to set something up for October or November, and see if I can drag some of the guys out there with me. In the past 8 months, I have bought about 4 guns that I have yet to take out on the field. I really would like to get some paint through them.

And to the butthole idiot who said AGD is dead, and to take my idea somewhere else: I really don't have anything to say to you. Just go away.

Great idea, but it's not possable. The amount of force you would need to get a paintball up to 280 FPS with out the use of air would be enormase, it would most likily shatter the paintball on impact. Also not to mention the exorbant cost of such a marker, we're most likily talking close too 5K per marker.

But atleast people are thinking outside the box.

[kruger]

Also, thinking outside the box, this railgun idea would work if.................you had some conductive material in the shell of the paintball. Nothing solid, but something that the magnetic field could grab on to. That would eliminate the need for a bolt, and the problem of returning the bolt to the pre-fire position. That, of course would depend on having a ball manufacturer willing to also think outside the box.

[MadPSIence]

Haven't posted here in a while...

I really don't know how AGD is just going to come back unless they sold out on what they are. What sells today is clone electro guns with a million types of crazy milling on the same 2-3 designs.

AGD I am sure could easily hop on board but what do you think AO and the whole following would think of that?

AGD Ego-Shocker-Mag? Gross thought really. Mags are amazing - the consumers of the mainstream simply aren't.

I'd be happy to just see the mag following maintained and fed. Great people, great guns. Few years ago I suggested AGD teaming up with all the loyal guys who now produce aftermarket for the mags. Why not collaborate?

2:45am and I could just be dreaming. Then again I came back here for some reason I guess. Nice seeing you all again. Big "hey!" to Tom. Hope you're doing great. Big wave to office lady too :p

[cyrus-the-virus]

Also, thinking outside the box, this railgun idea would work if.................you had some conductive material in the shell of the paintball. Nothing solid, but something that the magnetic field could grab on to. That would eliminate the need for a bolt, and the problem of returning the bolt to the pre-fire position. That, of course would depend on having a ball manufacturer willing to also think outside the box.

It won't work, I hate to say it but it's a bad, impractical, and expensive idea.

Kepp those gears going though.... just stay away from rail guns =D

[mostpeople]

Who knows, perhaps someday some AO'er will come up with a great idea that AGD can patent before the evil empire (SP) and run with it and make bazillions of dollars and we can all have automags on top again heheh.

[Toll]

If you get any plans drawn up for the railgun please immediately start working on the randomly appearing quad damage emitter.

[Skoad]

enjoy your can of worms Tom

:p

[cyrus-the-virus]

Haven't posted here in a while...

I really don't know how AGD is just going to come back unless they sold out on what they are. What sells today is clone electro guns with a million types of crazy milling on the same 2-3 designs.

AGD I am sure could easily hop on board but what do you think AO and the whole following would think of that?

AGD Ego-Shocker-Mag? Gross thought really. Mags are amazing - the consumers of the mainstream simply aren't.

I'd be happy to just see the mag following maintained and fed. Great people, great guns. Few years ago I suggested AGD teaming up with all the loyal guys who now produce aftermarket for the mags. Why not collaborate?

2:45am and I could just be dreaming. Then again I came back here for some reason I guess. Nice seeing you all again. Big "hey!" to Tom. Hope you're doing great. Big wave to office lady too :p

A comercial version of the logic ripper mag could put AGD back in the main stream.

it has eyes
it has a micro switch
it'sgot cheater modes,
it's electronic

Everything the main stream wants.

[Warwitch]

Would you rather they made a half-assed product and did a good job of selling it?


Thats the SmartParts way :rolleyes:

[rawbutter]

I really don't know how AGD is just going to come back unless they sold out on what they are. What sells today is clone electro guns with a million types of crazy milling on the same 2-3 designs.



I agree. I think that AGD needs to stay true to their vision/intent (whatever you want to call it). All of us buy AGD products because we understand what AGD is about and we appreciate their quality products, and I think that there are thousands of others out there just like us. The only problem is that they don't even know that AGD exists.

Therefore, I think the only real problem that AGD is facing is a lack of education for the masses... a lack of good marketing.

Personally, I've really given serious thought to writing a screenplay about paintball (I've written a few other screenplays before)... kind of like The Karate Kid, except instead of the main character learning karate, he's taught how to play paintball by an older, experienced player with a classic mag. The kid thinks that paintball is all about having the fastest gun and shooting the most players, but the old mentor shows him that it's more about sportsmanship, fair play, and challenging yourself. The kid would learn how to play paintball in stages... starting with a pump, moving onto a semi, and then finally ending with an e-mag or pneumag.

A movie like that would be a good coming-of-age story, and it would also serve as a marketing tool for AGD. I just have to get around to writing the darn thing.

[Toll]

As much as I love the railgun idea, I just don't see it being viable when we already have a low cost, relatively effective system in place that the railgun does not really replace


Instead of a 2dollar fill of a nitro tank, we have a car battery of unknown life. If we could recharge it and have it hold for..lets say, 2000 rounds, then I'd perk my ears.

What innovation does it bring? What makes it special? Will the ball always fly in the same direction at the exact same speed because it is propelled by a standardized force or will it be less accurate than our current system?

Will it be able to take a hit? How bout the rain? What happens if paint breaks?

big stuff :

Rate of fire
Battery life
kick?
Duribility?
Price?
Consitency?



In my head it would be a very expensive woodsball marker with the highlights being consistency, no sound and due to slow fire rate, no tank, if you're using "special" paintballs then they could most likely be used in a magazine sort of way.


I like the creativity though

[Smoothice]

The kid would learn how to play paintball in stages... starting with a pump, moving onto a semi, and then finally ending with an e-mag or pneumag.



Were you watching North Shore (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/north_shore/) when you had this idea for your screen play. Basically the exact thing you are describing but with surfboards instead.

[cyrus-the-virus]

Haven't posted here in a while...

I really don't know how AGD is just going to come back unless they sold out on what they are. What sells today is clone electro guns with a million types of crazy milling on the same 2-3 designs.

AGD I am sure could easily hop on board but what do you think AO and the whole following would think of that?

AGD Ego-Shocker-Mag? Gross thought really. Mags are amazing - the consumers of the mainstream simply aren't.

I'd be happy to just see the mag following maintained and fed. Great people, great guns. Few years ago I suggested AGD teaming up with all the loyal guys who now produce aftermarket for the mags. Why not collaborate?

2:45am and I could just be dreaming. Then again I came back here for some reason I guess. Nice seeing you all again. Big "hey!" to Tom. Hope you're doing great. Big wave to office lady too :p

A comercial version of the logic ripper mag could put AGD back in the main stream.

it has eyes
it has a micro switch
it'sgot cheater modes,
it's electronic

Everything the main stream wants.

[questionful]

Quest,

The spring you describe sounds great but can not be made. In any case, the RT valve does slam wide open for full flow and then slams shut. The spring around the poppet valve actually has little to do with it, its all in the air flow against the piston. Keep thinking up ideas though!

AGD

Aw maaaaan! lol

Though I meant the regulator spring, not the valve pin spring. I know the RT valve slams shut really fast, but I was going for even faster. I know it would probably be a high price/improvement trade-off, and I'm fine with my co2-fed classic mag's BPS, but you know. . . if mags can do 36bps right now, who knows what a faster regulator would do. I will think of other ideas for now, but some day I will continue with this one.

[jade_monkey07]

accually me and my buddy were talking about this last weekend at the local field. Would have to be funny too :P



Personally, I've really given serious thought to writing a screenplay about paintball (I've written a few other screenplays before)... kind of like The Karate Kid, except instead of the main character learning karate, he's taught how to play paintball by an older, experienced player with a classic mag. The kid thinks that paintball is all about having the fastest gun and shooting the most players, but the old mentor shows him that it's more about sportsmanship, fair play, and challenging yourself. The kid would learn how to play paintball in stages... starting with a pump, moving onto a semi, and then finally ending with an e-mag or pneumag.

A movie like that would be a good coming-of-age story, and it would also serve as a marketing tool for AGD. I just have to get around to writing the darn thing.

[SR_matt]

ok basicaly i got lazy to read past page 1 but heres a variation on the big idea that this thread was started for.

instead of using the rail gun idea to launch the ball just use the same tech to move the bolt forward and back then use what ever valve system u want or want not but its a way to use the tech and might be able to provide more consistent dwell or some other things, just kinda thinking out loud

-matt

[questionful]

ok basicaly i got lazy to read past page 1 but heres a variation on the big idea that this thread was started for.

instead of using the rail gun idea to launch the ball just use the same tech to move the bolt forward and back then use what ever valve system u want or want not but its a way to use the tech and might be able to provide more consistent dwell or some other things, just kinda thinking out loud

-matt
That's an extremely expensive way to replace blowforward.

[punkrex]

I'm not so sure that the Navy would implement a railgun unless it was to experiment. Rails guns are highly inefficient. Single shots via a high voltage capacitor bank if 100's of thousands + Farads is an event. There is a big trade off between the amount of juice to the mass and velocity of the object. Rapid fire shots from a railgun is a novel idea at best. :wow:

[SR_matt]

never said it was cost effective, just throwing ideas out :p

a ferrari is an expensive way to replace a honda when your just daily driving it :D

-matt

[questionful]

a ferrari is an expensive way to replace a honda when your just daily driving it :D

-matt
A rail gun doesn't help you get laid! :D

[Lomarandil]

They don't?
Durn..

Anyone got a new project for me?
Lo

[grEnAlEins]

Also, thinking outside the box, this railgun idea would work if.................you had some conductive material in the shell of the paintball. Nothing solid, but something that the magnetic field could grab on to. That would eliminate the need for a bolt, and the problem of returning the bolt to the pre-fire position. That, of course would depend on having a ball manufacturer willing to also think outside the box.
Not an issue. I believe TK still owns Perfect Circle Paintball... :D That would be a help.

Besides that though, I think it would just take too much power. I have no need to walk around with a huge battery in a backpack...

[questionful]

I guess it would qualify as food-grade if you called it an iron dietary supplement? :p

[LK-13]

Not an issue. I believe TK still owns Perfect Circle Paintball... :D That would be a help.

Besides that though, I think it would just take too much power. I have no need to walk around with a huge battery in a backpack...


do you mean this Perfect Circle Paintball :
http://www.pcpaintball.com/index.html

[grEnAlEins]

do you mean this Perfect Circle Paintball :
http://www.pcpaintball.com/index.html
Affirmatory ;)

[sdlm_]

What about this?

Design a Blow forward internally similar to the Automag, however instead of a sear use Air Pressure to hold back the bolt, and use a little pnuematic piston to close the on/off (I.e a piston where one side is has a much larger surface area to allow low pressure to close the hp on/off)...

When you pull the trigger, it moves a three way valve, venting the air holding the bolt back, and putting air into the bottom of a new on//off piston to close the flow through the marker.

As I understand Patents, this gets around PTPs patent, due to the fact that there is no sear to automate. It could fire very fast, have more or less he same relability as an Automag, and only minor changes would have to take place in the body (There could be no sear groove, just a 10-32 hole for QEV or the like). With the addition of an O-ring I do believe normal Automag bolts could even be used.

More importantly unlike homemade pneumag conversations, this wouldn't really need any adjusting, just put the LPR up to wherever it needs to be, and put some setscrews in the trigger to determine the pull and you are ready to go.

I am sorry if such an Idea has already been presented..

Does anyone know for certain if my Idea Above would Violate the PTP patent? It seems simple enough I might try and build it.

[questionful]

With an Ion 'noid? Build first, deal with patents later! Not that they matter as long as you don't sell it.

[Tao]

Okay...now for the real reason this thread was created...My idea:

It may not even be feasable (due to the SP patent crap), but I still feel it is worth looking into. I am sure you have read or heard about the Navy's plan to build and install a Rail Gun on its ships. I have been wondering for a while if that concept could be scaled down and utilized in a paintball gun. I am not an engineer, so there are a myriad of specifics that I do not have, but the basic concept is this: a bolt sits between two rails (an anode and a cathode). When the trigger is pulled, electrical current runs from the positive terminal of the power supply up the positive rail, through the bolt, and down the negative rail, back to the power supply. This flow of current makes the railgun act like an electromagnet, creating a powerful magnetic field in the region of the rails up to the position of the bolt. In accordance with the right-hand rule, the created magnetic field circulates around each conductor. Since the current flows in opposite direction along each rail, the net magnetic field between the rails is directed vertically. In combination with the current flowing across the bolt, this produces a Lorentz force which accelerates the bolt along the rails. There are also forces acting on the rails attempting to push them apart, but since the rails are firmly mounted they cannot move. The bolt slides up the rails away from the end with the power supply, resulting in the paintball (which is sitting in front of the bolt) to shoot out of the barrel. The bolt can be returned to the pre-firing condition by a spring.

One positive aspect I can think of is that the gun would be airless (no more bulky tank on the back of your gun). I am guessing that one major obstacle would be power - having a system that uses electricity to create the magnetic opposing force needed to move the bolt forward at @280 fps may require a lot of juice, meaning a big battery, or small batteries with less life. Like I said, I am not an engineer, so I don't really have a lot of specifics. But, I am sure that someone with the time and money it would take to R&D this might be able to pull it of. I figure, if anyone has the means or knowledge to do it, it might be you. What do you think?

Devil - Nah, I haven't managed to make it out to Tama Hills. We have been underway a lot. We are just about finished with our summer cruise. I am going to try to set something up for October or November, and see if I can drag some of the guys out there with me. In the past 8 months, I have bought about 4 guns that I have yet to take out on the field. I really would like to get some paint through them.

And to the butthole idiot who said AGD is dead, and to take my idea somewhere else: I really don't have anything to say to you. Just go away.


I thought about this idea but there is a problem. Normally the ball accellerates down the barrel, thus this system would need to accelerate that ball over a similar distance or else the ball would break. Such a system would be too slow to reset, or require so much energy you would have to carry around a very heavy battery. a way around that would be to use a megnetic paintball instead of a magnetic cradle, but this would be too much of a change to take hold in the industry.

[Tao]

With an Ion 'noid? Build first, deal with patents later! Not that they matter as long as you don't sell it.

Yeah except research and development is expensive......

[zipity_Bop]

paintball guns are floated theres not much more that can be done....

Wen need some paint ideas....

a way to get cheaper paint at a good quality would be awesome

[Ratt]

I'm not so sure that the Navy would implement a railgun unless it was to experiment. Rails guns are highly inefficient. Single shots via a high voltage capacitor bank if 100's of thousands + Farads is an event. There is a big trade off between the amount of juice to the mass and velocity of the object. Rapid fire shots from a railgun is a novel idea at best. :wow:


You obviously don't know what you are talking about. The Navy has been experimenting with such a rail gun, and one does exist, and they do plan on fitting it on future DDG's and CG's. Do a 'google' on 'rail gun Naval Surface Warfare Center Dalhgren Division', or go to wikipedia and type in 'rail gun'.

[SR_matt]

paintball guns are floated theres not much more that can be done....

Wen need some paint ideas....

a way to get cheaper paint at a good quality would be awesome

that has been said for years, same with computers. bill gates once said that a computer will never need more than 500 bites of ram and now his software requires a gig to run. people said cell phones couldnt get any better then apple came out with the iphone. there is always improvement. instead of going for ROF now though the things are going to efficenthy, light weight, consistancy, and size. you an always make things more eficent, smaller and more consistant no matter how good it is then.


heck in 10 years we might be looking back at the gns that are new now and going "wow 3 fps+/- those days were terrible for consistency"

-matt

[punkrex]

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. The Navy has been experimenting with such a rail gun, and one does exist, and they do plan on fitting it on future DDG's and CG's. Do a 'google' on 'rail gun Naval Surface Warfare Center Dalhgren Division', or go to wikipedia and type in 'rail gun'.

Im not gonna start a pissing contest but I have reasearched, designed and built railguns with a team of individuals.

I don't know much about the Navy but I am familair with military contracts of this nature. So I did a little google search and came up with this:

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,123818,00.html
Yeah, looks like the ones they have built are specifically for the purpose of R@D. No one has officially decreed that they are going to implement rail guns fleet wide. Please reread my post before you jump all over me, I said I wasn't sure that they were using one. And I still doubt that they will ever find a permenant place on board a warship.

And damn! They are talking mega joules of energy! That is a buttload of power...

[angrysasquatch]

that has been said for years, same with computers. bill gates once said that a computer will never need more than 500 bites of ram and now his software requires a gig to run. people said cell phones couldnt get any better then apple came out with the iphone. there is always improvement. instead of going for ROF now though the things are going to efficenthy, light weight, consistancy, and size. you an always make things more eficent, smaller and more consistant no matter how good it is then.


heck in 10 years we might be looking back at the gns that are new now and going "wow 3 fps+/- those days were terrible for consistency"

-matt

Yes, but the two examples you used are electronics. Electronics as a whole, improve at an incredible rate. However, mechanical devices, as a whole, move forward very slowly. And the railgun idea, could be done if the bolt was actuated by said mechanism, but I think the idea of what makes railguns so good is they accelerate the object along the entire length of the "barrel", thus iron paintballs would need to be invented. Probably not the safest projectile at 300 fps. And even if all those problems are solved, if the military is just doing it (and it isn't technology adapted from the commercial sector), its very, very expensive, and probably temperamental.

[Skoad]

you wouldn't need iron balls, just a paintball infront of a magnetic bolt of sorts. however slamming that against something to stop it from traveling forward wouldn't be that great, unless you polarized the end of a track to counter it before it reached the end. pretty complicated, don't expect it to ever reach paintball ;/

[Miscue]

I think all AGD needs is a new logo... like a moustache or something.


Quest,

The spring you describe sounds great but can not be made. In any case, the RT valve does slam wide open for full flow and then slams shut. The spring around the poppet valve actually has little to do with it, its all in the air flow against the piston. Keep thinking up ideas though!

AGD

[angrysasquatch]

No, the magnetic bolt would be a waste.

The advantage of railguns is that they can shoot things at very high velocities. In a gun, to shoot something faster, you'd put more powder behind the round. But, to actually get the power out of that round, you'd use a longer barrel, or else the gasses wouldn't have completely expanded by the time you got to the end of the barrel, so some of the pressure behind the shot vents into air and is wasted. More powder = more pressure, so you'd need a longer barrel to make the most of it. By the time you get to very long barrels (think artillery), the gasses created by all that combustion have to fill a very large volume which is the barrel by the time you get to the end of the barrel. Thus, as you increase the barrel size, the efficiency starts to drop off. if the efficiency is crap, you're gonna need a huge amount of powder (which adds weight to the boat, in this case, and allows you to carry less rounds).

Now, with a railgun, it gets rid of that inefficiency by basically having an infinite amount of small explosions behind it. Except in a railgun, it's just a constant magnetic force moving the round, not explosions. The problem with railguns is that they are useless built on a small scale. They are inefficient. However, the inefficiency stays as a straight line (energy in= x axis, energy out= y axis) when comparing energy in (electrical power):useful energy out(1/2 the mass of the projectile x the velocity squared). In firearms, the graph would start steeper than the railgun line, but it would curve towards flat as energy in increased. Where those two lines meet, is the point at which both are equally feasible.

A paintball moving at 300 fps is nowhere near that point. Railguns only become feasible in something with the muzzle energy of an artillery shell.


If you were going to move the bolt, you wouldn't use a railgun, you'd use something very simple, an electromagnet. However, if you tried to accelerate the paintball in .68 inches, which is the distance just about every bolt moves, the ball would break from the acceleration. You would have to make some sort of a ram type electromagnet with a very long throw (at least 5 inches) that can move in excess of 300 fps. Considering that the shaft of the ram would have to have a lot of iron in the material you chose, that would be a huge amount of weight which you accelerated to 300 fps in 5 inches. That's gonna be a whole lot of kick.

[kruger]

Just because I think that this is an interesting topic, I will throw in my two cents worth.

The idea of a railgun for military use is indeed a massive undertaking of money and technology. In military applications, you have to get the projectile up to astronomical speeds to accomplish your goal. You are also trying to sling a very heavy weight from a stand still to many times the speed of sound in a realativly short distance. That calls for high peak power output.

Now, if we were trying to sling a paintball at roughly 5 times the speed of sound, then, I would agree that it would be impratical to even attempt. The power required would be prohibitive to such a project. But, we are trying to just push a paintball less than half the speed of sound. The power requirements would bbe much less. You have less mass to sling, and you are not trying to acheive a very high speed. And, as I stated before, you dont need a bolt to ride the rails, that would be a mechanical nightmare. Kick would be very high, and you would still have to return the bolt to the starting position for the next shot. High rates of fire would require that the thing be built like a tank. If you had a paintball that had magnetic qualities, or even iron dust in the shell, then you would not even need a bolt. Just get the ball in the barrel and push the button. And, as to acceleration, we shoot paintballs with 850 lb bursts of air and they mostly survive that. So, we already know that the paintball will survive the shot. With electronics, you can modulate the pulse to accelerate the paintball down the wave and out the barrel at exactly 300 fps.

Is this concept doable? I think that it is. And, I think that it could be done at a price that would be acceptable to the masses. You would have trade offs with this type of marker. First, you loose the air tank. Depending on your point of view, that could be a good thing. But, you gain a battery pack. The power required for the shot would be high, but of short duration. Another plus would be a totally silent gun. And, if for no other reason than this, I think that it would be worth doing.

Is it practical? Not right now. There are too many manufacturers out there that are making money on the pneumatic designs that they have right now. But, you let one, high profile accident happen with a HP tank. Some senators kid gets hurt or killed with a freak accident with a HP Tank and they will want to ban those tanks and then the market would be better suited for this application.

Just my two cents worth.

[Toll]

Iirc the use of a railgun in military applications was more a less to fling artillery shells rather than the more quakish slug. Artillery shells being "freak'n 'uge" it would make sense. Kruger brings up alot of good points


I think we could all safely say that the tank weight would not be removed, only substituted.


I am all for the idea and development of a paintball railgun...If I had any background in this, what so ever, I would gladly help.

[SR_matt]

i think one of the big power things people are forgetting is that on ships most of them are running of nuclear power so power is not as issue to them seeing as one aircraft carrier can power a city almost.


with the thing about mechanical items not increasing as fast as electronics true but, think how far engines have come in such a short time, given the increases of computers have happened 100 times faster but mechanical breakthroughs can come much faster than they do just because not as many people are pushing to get such high performance from mechanical stuff.

about how much pressure ends up behind a ball, its nowhere near 850 psi. first off most guns regulate the psi in the reservoir down a lot (mags have it in the 400-500 range IIRC) then P1*V1=P2*V2 so that small amount of higher pressure air going into a large area becomes a much lower psi. in teh resources thing about barrels tom has gone over the actual pressures in different guns and where a ball startes to break and its around 150ish IIRC

-matt

[MadPSIence]

I think the railgun topic can take a break. It's not happening in paintball. I hate to be abrasive but it's rather stupid.

[kruger]

And, I agree with you. But, it is an interesting subject atm.

[MadPSIence]

And, I agree with you. But, it is an interesting subject atm.

Applied to paintball it really isn't :tard:

[Ratt]

Applied to paintball it really isn't :tard:

This thread isn't a "is a rail gun paintball interesting?" thread. It was a thread started to see what TK thought about the idea, and if there was any feasablility in it.. If you don't think it is 'interesting' to talk about...then go post somewhere else! Nobody asked you...:mad:

I still would like to hear what TK thinks about the idea

[SR_matt]

just because a rail gun is not feasible doesnt mean that the talk is pointless, it has opened up a lot of other ideas about using electro magnets to move things around in the guns, while those might not be extremely feasible now either it opens up a lot more designs than what we have now.

-matt

[RvB Caboose]

How much of a reciprocal force would the user of a paintball railgun experience? Compared to most railgun projectiles, are paintballs larger or smaller? I know whenever somebody brings up an orbital railgun on a tech forum somebody mentions that Newton's Third Law of Motion would push the satellite out of orbit.

[questionful]

It would take only as much force as today's paintguns use to launch 3grams at 300fps.

But I still think the whole rail-gun thing is extremely far-fetched. Too much money and too many problems for just launching a little ball.

[Coralis]

what about using spining wheels similar to what a pitching machine uses, again i think you will be trading a big ole honking battery for a air source but since we are on the subject and all.

[kruger]

Applied to paintball it really isn't :tard:

Well, then if it is not interesting to you, there are other threads that you can read........

I, however, do find that it is interesting to read about and discuss. That is the main reason that I posted in this thread. If you will notice, there are many threads in the AO forums that I have not posted in. Care to guess why?

[LK-13]

Well, then if it is not interesting to you, there are other threads that you can read........

I, however, do find that it is interesting to read about and discuss. That is the main reason that I posted in this thread. If you will notice, there are many threads in the AO forums that I have not posted in. Care to guess why?

Kruger,
at the same time you should keep in mind that you did not start this particular thread Ratt did,
and he did not suggest anything even remotely similar to a Rail Gun.

Tom, I have an idea that I would like to share with you. Could you please contact me? ramirezr@cg63.navy.mil

from a physics point of view and economics; applying Rail Gun type operating technology is impractical and cost prohibitive.
even to move a small mass at the needed velocity the energy requirements far out stretch the portable power supplies currently available.

now if someone some where invents a Super Conductor that can and will remain Super Conductive at and above room temperature;
this type of operating system becomes more reasonable.
but so do particle energy weapons,
collimated energy weapons and a host of other technologies that may well replace the Paintball entirely.

but until someone decides that we can have that Super Conductor at the civilian level,
we are stuck with the tried and true Steam Engine technology of Pressurized Gas Cylinders and Valves combined with the turn of the Century Technology of Electrical Switches.

as TK may well tell you, Rocket Science this is not.

now all things being equal,
something i personally would like to see is a step away from electronics of any kind in the mechanism of a Paintball launch platform.
a finely tuned mechanical system is far more dependable and robust than any other.
additionally i would like to see provision made for both Co2 and HPA as the propellant source.
should one be needed at all.
reaching back to the ages old technology of Hunting Air Guns,
shouldn't it be possible to build a Paintball gun with a mechanism similar to the Pump Action Single Shot Pellet/BB Gun?
Hunting Air Guns can shoot .22 cal Pellets at 1000 FPS and above,
the mass of a Paintball is very close to that of a .22 cal Lead Pellet,
so why can't these 2 branches of the same tree be joined?
think of a .68 cal Pump Action (Lever Action would be better) Paintball Gun that requires no outside Air Source.
the pump piston would need to be of large diameter and short stroke to ease the load of the pump stroke while still delivering the needed energy to the ball in the chamber.
but this system should be at least plausible.
From there it's only a matter of engineering a way to automate cycling the mechanism and the Paintball world will beat a path to your door.

[questionful]

http://www.the-whiteboard.com/autowb654.gif

[kruger]

LK-13, I think that Ratt did sorta mention a railgun, as he posted here:


Okay...now for the real reason this thread was created...My idea:

It may not even be feasable (due to the SP patent crap), but I still feel it is worth looking into. I am sure you have read or heard about the Navy's plan to build and install a Rail Gun on its ships. I have been wondering for a while if that concept could be scaled down and utilized in a paintball gun. I am not an engineer, so there are a myriad of specifics that I do not have, but the basic concept is this: a bolt sits between two rails (an anode and a cathode). When the trigger is pulled, electrical current runs from the positive terminal of the power supply up the positive rail, through the bolt, and down the negative rail, back to the power supply. This flow of current makes the railgun act like an electromagnet, creating a powerful magnetic field in the region of the rails up to the position of the bolt. In accordance with the right-hand rule, the created magnetic field circulates around each conductor. Since the current flows in opposite direction along each rail, the net magnetic field between the rails is directed vertically. In combination with the current flowing across the bolt, this produces a Lorentz force which accelerates the bolt along the rails. There are also forces acting on the rails attempting to push them apart, but since the rails are firmly mounted they cannot move. The bolt slides up the rails away from the end with the power supply, resulting in the paintball (which is sitting in front of the bolt) to shoot out of the barrel. The bolt can be returned to the pre-firing condition by a spring.

One positive aspect I can think of is that the gun would be airless (no more bulky tank on the back of your gun). I am guessing that one major obstacle would be power - having a system that uses electricity to create the magnetic opposing force needed to move the bolt forward at @280 fps may require a lot of juice, meaning a big battery, or small batteries with less life. Like I said, I am not an engineer, so I don't really have a lot of specifics. But, I am sure that someone with the time and money it would take to R&D this might be able to pull it of. I figure, if anyone has the means or knowledge to do it, it might be you. What do you think?

Devil - Nah, I haven't managed to make it out to Tama Hills. We have been underway a lot. We are just about finished with our summer cruise. I am going to try to set something up for October or November, and see if I can drag some of the guys out there with me. In the past 8 months, I have bought about 4 guns that I have yet to take out on the field. I really would like to get some paint through them.

And to the butthole idiot who said AGD is dead, and to take my idea somewhere else: I really don't have anything to say to you. Just go away.