Crown Point Barrel Discussion

[AGD]

AO,

At first I was worried but you passed the test well. I was at dinner with Swarm and one of the players commented that AO was not a good place to get feed back because everyone there was a Mag drone. While he mean it in a nice way he did have a point. I didn't have a good way to prove to him that he was wrong until I came across the question about the 8" Crown Point Barrel and started to reply. The reply turned into a test to prove my point, that collectively you all are NOT ALL ONE MIND.

As you can see from the overwhelming response and the variety of thoughts that virtually every angle was covered. I apologize that I had to do this to you but think of it as a wake up call to make you more aware of what goes on in the marketing world. In addition you have upped your status in the eyes of non AO people. Your responses of all kinds go even further to enhance my respect for the people on this forum.

For those who think this is a love fest just read the posts, if I can't snow ball you with the best I have to offer no one can. Good job all!!

If you did buy a barrel we will refund your money. If you want to keep it I have instructed Marcia to include a free parts kit with every barrel.

I want to continue this thread with a discussion of the various aspects of the "sales pitch" starting below.

AGD

[AGD]

First of all do you think that anything I said was any different than what other manufacturers would say?

AGD

[M-a-s-sDriver]

All I know is that I am selling fish-crap sucker-uppers for 40 bucks a pop.
Visa and Mastercard Preferred.
Brent Jackson, PFB.

[Butterfingers]

Tom, that was the best impersonation of Smart Parts iv'e seen to date.

DONT EVER DO THAT AGAIN!!! :) You scared the crap out of me.

[FooTemps]

Actually tom,

You didn't stray much from what a lot of companies say. You were saying you're the best, "this is what works", "a new revolution in paintball", "the most advanced out there", and other companies suck...

[manike]

Tom if you don't think there was a large proportion of people there that were blindly following you, and buying it because it was you and AGD, and ignoring all others who were trying to say otherwise then we were reading a different thread.

Simon

[AGD]

Yes Manike that was true, BUT all bases were covered which resulted in the whole thing being "up in the air"

AGD

[FooTemps]

That thread gave me some extra posts so I just played along...:D I don't consier myself a mag drone... YET... I see that a lot of people just jumped for the crown point when you pulled that off.

[LaW]

I read all that and was just like, "what happend with TK?"

I found it hilarious that a lot of people were really serious into ordering them right away like it was the best kept secret in the world. Thank you for the humor :)

[banzaimf]

Originally posted by AGD
First of all do you think that anything I said was any different than what other manufacturers would say?

AGD

The problem is our percieved "connection" to you via this website. I have never read an e-mail from Dave Y. or Bob L. The Gardner boys have never posted on any forum I am on.

With that in mind. The AO perception of your products is tainted in a way that no other company can duplicate at this point. What you said was exactly the way that any other company would, however, coming from you it is like hearing the Pope say that he's got to have a break for some doobies and a conjugal visit.

While I agree that people will have diverging opinions, and that eventually they will get ferreted out and the truth will be known (taking in to account the Roswell exception policy), you only need a short time of massive sales to get your foot in the door. Once that is in place, you can put out product on strength of previous success alone.

anyways.. I am rambling...
back to your regularly scheduled program

Banzaimf

[irbodden]

I could tell you why people bought it, its a $20 barrel! :D

It was funny though.

[manike]

Really? I wonder how many people ordered barrels or were seriously considering it, that wouldn't have if you had just mentioned that they were for sale. Many people here hang on your every word. Most even apologised before contradicting you or pointing out where you contradicted yourself.

Many were hesitant or didn't want to contradict you at first.

If you'd have stuck with it a lot of people here would have followed through and bought the product and started hyping it elsewhere. Just because they want to believe you and that everything you do is the best. People were starting other threads and starting to say that their barrel is good, or that heck it's worth 20$. It goes to show you you could sell a product or an idea or hype here that wouldn't necessarily be bought elsewhere. It would be very complacent to think that the opinions here aren't to quite a large extent biased to you and your products.

manike

[marc]

Why couldnt you just lie to us, and say it was true. I wanted that to be true really bad. Well dont do this agian plz because you got me all exited, and I told you I was stupid (even though I make sure im getting actual good stuff from other companys, I trust AGD). And is that the barrel that is on the stock mags. I gota question as well. If I cut my freak (because the porting in it is like a razor)porting off will it affect the accuracy because it wouldnt be a perfect cut? PS if I buy the barrel now will i still get the parts kit

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by irbodden
I could tell you why people bought it, its a $20 barrel! :D

It was funny though.

True, i dont even think you can get aluminum tubes for that little.

$60 would have been a real test.

Heck they are so cheap that im thinking of picking one of those things up as a fish crap sucker upper and as a peice of automag history.

[LaW]

Nice :)


Originally posted by manike
Really? I wonder how many people ordered barrels or were seriously considering it, that wouldn't have if you had just mentioned that they were for sale. Many people here hang on your every word. Most even apologised before contradicting you or pointing out where you contradicted yourself.

Many were hesitant or didn't want to contradict you at first.

If you'd have stuck with it a lot of people here would have followed through and bought the product and started hyping it elsewhere. Just because they want to believe you and that everything you do is the best. People were starting other threads and starting to say that their barrel is good, or that heck it's worth 20$. It goes to show you you could sell a product or an idea or hype here that wouldn't necessarily be bought elsewhere. It would be very complacent to think that the opinions here aren't to quite a large extent biased to you and your products.

manike :D

[hitech]

First off, I don't like being used. :mad:

I bought the barrel because I want to try the stock barrel and figured it had to be worth $20. Would you be willing to put the stock mini mag barrels in the online store for $20?

As far as what you wrote. I think it went over what other advertisements say. However, not by much. They all make claims they can't support. They just usually don't say so much all at once. In addition, you have a reputation of backing up what you claim with testing.

One last thing. I have always wondered if ANY type of hole, port etc. does ANY good at all in a barrel (those crown points included)? My stroker (fixed barrel, no porting of any kind) is very accurate. So, do those thing work?

P.S., Yes, I still want the barrel. I didn't buy it thinking it was the end all be all of barrels. :)

[marc]

Law i dont know what you are talking about, Tom is and everything he makes is the best.:D And is AGD planing to release a barrel, I mean for Tom to do all of those expencive tests just to prove some one wrong, doesnt seem quite right

[Royal Assassin]

WOW, that was awsome... All I thought was if this is SO great, why's it only $20?? I've been taken on alot of misc. garbage in the paintball industry but this wasn't one of them. I think what Tom did was a great thing for alot of the young influental players that get caught up in all the hype.

Lesson: Don't beleive everything you read/hear.

Thanks for the lesson/entertainment.
Roayl Assassin

[Army]

If it helps any of you to feel better, we Mods were taken in at first, but then came to the conclusion that Tom was hanging around the steel door at the end of the hall during more military ball testing! (figured he took one too many to the head...)

[LaW]

heck I thought Tom had been tipping back 1 too many when he posted that :)

[hitech]

Originally posted by manike
Really? I wonder how many people ordered barrels or were seriously considering it, that wouldn't have if you had just mentioned that they were for sale.

I can't tell you how many, but I know of three. Myself and the two friends i suggested buy one (I told them, hey it's only $20 and will make a good "backup" barrel if nothing else).

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by manike
Really? I wonder how many people ordered barrels or were seriously considering it, that wouldn't have if you had just mentioned that they were for sale. Many people here hang on your every word. Most even apologised before contradicting you or pointing out where you contradicted yourself.

Many were hesitant or didn't want to contradict you at first.

If you'd have stuck with it a lot of people here would have followed through and bought the product and started hyping it elsewhere. Just because they want to believe you and that everything you do is the best. People were starting other threads and starting to say that their barrel is good, or that heck it's worth 20$. It goes to show you you could sell a product or an idea or hype here that wouldn't necessarily be bought elsewhere. It would be very complacent to think that the opinions here aren't to quite a large extent biased to you and your products.

manike


Trust has a lot to do with it too. In my 6 year customer relationship with AGD they have always been straightforward with me. So I have learned to trust them.

So I suspect alot of people would buy the barrel out of sheer trust for AGD and thier reputation for being honest.

For example:

If your best friend has been honest to you for 6 years you develop a high level of trust for him/her. In cases you don't even question what he says anymore. Because you know what he/she has done in the past has always been in your best intrest. So if he says, "hey bud I need some money my grandma is dying in the hospital" you wouldent even think twice.

Its a diffrent situation if you meet some stranger on the street and you start listening to what he says. You have NO idea what his motives are or how he acts. And he decides to sweet talk you into giving him some money. What are you gonna do if he says "hey bud I need some money my grandma is dying in the hospital." You are a lot less likely to buy into it.

[M-a-s-sDriver]

No, your post sounded like an obvious joke, not advertisement.
Some things that DID sound familiar were reasons WHY the barrel is better, such as airflow transition. The Freak system, which I own, is sold along a similiar premis of adjusting bore size to ball size for better consistancy.
This idea, along with the pitch of smooth transition from barrel to cruel world, may very well be true. Or untrue. They both make sense, but We The Public really have no way of knowing for sure unless we are willing to do some stringent, controlled testing. Even IF we tested them thouroughly, who is to say those variables were unrelated to accuracy, and the real solution isn't something like barrel length?
I have been in paintball now since 1986, and in various tournies (including NPPL) since 1995. I can't even begin to estimate how many cases of paintballs I have shot. I have owned lots of Cockers, Lots of Mags, a couple of Angels, Phantoms, and countless other guns. You would think I would know the EXACT reason my current gun is better than the rest.
I do not.
WE (I) buy things because of marketing, and hopefully my experience.
For instance, I have gotten a lot of flack for using aftermarket parts on my MAG, and most the people here love stock parts and have great luck with them.
My stock MAGS sucked. It took regulators, Z-valves, forgrip extenders, 2-finger triggers and ANS bolts to make it competitive with Angels. I don't know every reason why, but my MAG is a better gun than a Stock Mag. No question. It is more consistant (Palmer Stab?),has a lighter, shorter trigger (Z-valve?), and is VERY easy on paint(ANS Bolt?). Manufactures make claims. I buy on those claims, plus testimonials from players, like this forum. You have to make an educated choice.
How do I know for sure that the Intelliframe is better than my Benchmark? You Say it is, but is that the truth? Is it worth twice the amount as a Benchmark? Well, these people say it is, so I am going to buy one.
I realise I am going off topic a little here, but I want to illustrate a point you have made about your marketing.
It is this: AGD has a great reputation, and people will buy based on your reputation on building good products, and most of us believe because you do a lot of emperical testing, you know what is best.
Brent Jackson, PFB.

[bofh]

Originally posted by manike
<snip> Most even apologised before contradicting you or pointing out where you contradicted yourself.

<SNIP> It would be very complacent to think that the opinions here aren't to quite a large extent biased to you and your products.

manike

On the first point, if you're going to tell something that full of it, do it with a smile. Make them feel good about. My mom, well, she didn't teach me that, but I'm sure it's a good idea.

Second, The point to prove was that AO is NOT ALL ONE MIND. Not everyone agreed that Tom was right. A good chunk of people disagreed. I'd even guess that more than half diagreed.... So AO might not be a bad place for feedback (but.... you need 40 sets of data for a good info, don't cha know:) )

But this wasn't a very good test, Yes, Tom tried his best "Marketing Hat" tricks on us... but that's not the best way he could lead us on. If he were to present an idea like the superbolt, and used totally wrong logicial conclusions... Say making a AutoMag bolt out of lead and saying increased mass would slow the bolt opening, and the increased force of the air behind the bolt (to open the more mass-full bolt) would cause the metered airflow to be more consistant, (and we all have more "consistant = more accurate" burned in our brains) so it would reduce breaks and be more accurate... That would be a true test.

Tom,
I don't listen to much marketing, but I think you did a good job at it... And shown that you're really an engineer. :) Must marketing that I do see, is always consistant with itself. Some of your stuff contradicted itself. But otherwise, very passable good. Fooled a lot of people

[Butterfingers]

Tom I think BOTH of the crown point threads should be made classics as a refrence to teach people how easily they can be duped by highfalutin marketing tactics that most other paintball companies use.

[AGD]

The funny thing about the visual descriptions in the pitch were that I beilieved them to be true in the 80's. I was convinced and sold them with that story. We actually had a pretty hot barrel way back then. No one liked the ringing though....

AGD

[magmonkey]

there is the lesson I spoke of

[timebomb]

Does this mean that the barrel isn't really the best in the world?!?!

:eek: ;)

Mike
PbNation.com Admeanistrator :D

[AngelBoy]

So... does the barrel work like he said or not???

[shartley]

Dangerous game you just played.

Would any of the other manufacturers say similar things…. Probably, maybe, who cares? The important thing is would YOU? I know I wouldn’t.

For me, Marketing NEVER gets me to purchase a product, period. Marketing is about getting your product in front of the consumer. It is to let them know it is there. A Salesman SELLS the product, your marketing should not have to. Your post was not marketing at all… and you did not see that? It was salesmanship…. Like a snake oil salesman at that. But it was FAR from marketing.

When you see a commercial on TV, do they SELL you the truck? Do they go into all its features? Or do they only touch on a couple, if any, and simply provide you with a good display format for their product? Then you are directed how to get further information if your interest has been gotten. THAT is marketing.

My goodness Tom… who the heck have you been listening to? Do you want to market your products or sell them…. Marketing LEADS to the sale, but is NOT the sale.

Example: Mountain Due

The product is Marketed with HYPE. But do you think anyone believes that a can of Mountain Due will allow you to jump out of an airplane with a mountain bike and do all those James Bond type stuff? Heck no.. it is ENTERTAINMENT. And the consumer knows it.

Example: Coke

Does anyone actually think the Polar Bear is REAL? Does anyone actually think it plays with the seal and shares a bottle of Coke with it?

Example: Chevy Blazer

Does anyone think when the family rides home in their black Chevy Blazer and avoids all those obstacles, that ANY of them were REAL?

I could list products all night, but you get the point. Marketing and SALESMANSHIP are two entirely different things, and are used for two entirely different purposes…. I will say it again, Marketing LEADS to Sales, but is NOT the sale.
And what you can get away with (and are EXPECTED to do) in Marketing, is FAR from what is needed in the Sales Phase of actually selling your product.

And with this in mind, it is clear that your post could not be farther from Marketing than White is from Black. You did not prove that people on AO would not fall for HYPE marketing, or marketing at all… and as for your Marketing Hat… you never even put one on. You SOLD them on the idea, you did not market it.

It is the same misconception you had with the Ad you wanted to run. You made a Brochure or Flyer, but NOT an Ad. You are confusing too many different aspects of successful business and promotion/sales. And this is unfortunate, since it seems you don’t have anyone who either CAN or is willing to tell you the difference.

What did your whole thread prove? Absolutely nothing close to what you think it did. It proved that you can SELL some people outright, confuse others, and not even come close to fooling a few more. It also showed that your “Boys” either did not have the guts to stand up and say “This is BS”, or did not know the difference. I saw a whole lot of misdirection and conversation detouring going on.. in directions OTHER than saying you were lying.

But it proved nothing positive about AO or your Marketing skills… since the overwhelming majority was either fooled outright, or were confused at best.. as well as those who said they did not care.. Tom said to buy it, so even if he is not telling the truth, it MUST be a good product anyway. This is not marketing, and it is NOT clear and independent thinking.

I am afraid this did you more harm than good, but you may not know it. I will also not get into it further…. It is obvious that you are either continuously receiving poor to outright BAD advice, are getting NO advice, or don’t know when to ASK for advice… this was a clear indication of that. I am disappointed it even took place.

[gmag]

Suddenly, I feel like a guinea pig...

(and no, I didn't buy the barrel. Wasn't even considering it.)

[AGD]

Shartley, when did marketing come into this? AGD

[Minimag4me]

i agree with shartley that this may cause more harm than good, i was concidering the barrel even i knew it was a lie. Next new product that comes out we will all be asking ourselves, is he lying again?, will it really do what he says it does? I know this wont stop me from buying AGD products but for some...

edit:like some have said this is a good learning experience especially for me

[Butterfingers]

Well the purpose of the post wasent to prove his marketing skills it was to test the viability of the forum to produce honest unbiased opinions. The marketing spheel way just a part of the plot to test the forum. IMHO Tom NEVER intended to actually market his products in this manner.

I cant emphisize enough that this was not a way to test marketing strategy but to test the biasness of the forum.

IMHO It was a good learning experience. It showed to a lot of people how easily they could be fooled by marketing hype. Perhaps now they will be more open minded.

The best way to learn is by your own mistakes. It takes a good teacher to help the student realize what he/she had done wrong without negative consequence. Thanks Tom.

[Dave]

Here is the way it went with me- I saw the add, laughed at some parts, but yet didn't respond. Somewhere in the back of my mind I saw this barrel on a Mag in 1991 in the video. The thing that kept me interested was of all the previous time you had talked about barrel porting, etc. in the tech tips, so, the first thought was, Tom has done major research and has all the facts straight, and this is the result. A perfect barrel. Then I got to thinking...I thought about how much the balls curve when I use my DYE X-cel, so i got that part, but I dunno, I guess I never responded cause I didn't know if it would fit the kind of paint I wanted, and was confused cause it did not sound like you, so i was going to wait it out and see what would become of it. No, it did not get me. Thanks to posts from other people asking about bore sizes, I thought about that too, and didn't post, just left it as it was. In the end, I wouldn't have bought the barrel. Maybe it was a combo of I couldn't use a credit card(although if I wanted one bad enough I'd bother Rob to get me one:) ) [a barrel, that is] or that I will very soon be getting a Lapco Bigshot:) :) :) Either way, I wouldn't have done it cause I knew something was up...I could have used more common sense and asked myself what is the deal here? But the point was I really didn't need it. Even now the whole thing seems confusing, of course I can understand why you wanted to do it. I think everyone was caught off guard cause it was Tom!!! We have come to trust you.

-Dave

[Webmaster]

For a little bit - I thought you were serious...er seriously hopped up on cold meds. It wasnt until I read the details where you contradicted your findings with the high speed photo test that I figured out you were doing some different.

Either that or you were taken over my smart parts and they were controling your mind.


Seriously - I still want one! I didnt know you had any left!

I like the sound it makes:
CHING CHING CHING CHING - for whom the bell tolls!! CHING CHING CHING CHING CHING

[datapimp69]

so tom did BFL stand for

big *edit* Do not try to circumvent the cuss filters lie ?

sorry i didnt know anyother way to say what i was trying to say.

[gmag]

I didn't like it at all. This is supposed to be a family. Since when did we have to prove something to someone else. Even if we were "mag drones", so what!? Its kinda like your neighbor telling you they don't like the color of your house. It doesn't mean you repaint, does it? Well, if anything, it showed that a lot of people trust you blindly. And a lot of people think on their own too(just to give credit to the people who didn't spring out and buy one immediately). It caused a lot of unnessecary confusion. And I didn't like the part about "puny brains" and "you must have a small brain if....", even though it wasn't directed exactly towards us it was still harsh. Those are strong words.

[nutz]

it suprises me that so many ppl actually bought into this idea... i mean that paintball industrey has always screamed that paint to barrel match was everything..... and tom totally went against it... if what tom said was true, he would have sold tons...
Tom good job on making people believe things... i think u should try it on something that is true next time and see what response u get then... i think that will show a thing or 2 about the real AO... yes i know u pissed off quite a few AO member including everyones favorite shartley but what u said sounded so true that if i hadnt read on to ppls replies, i think i may have bought one... next time do it about something thats true if u want to sell stuff... good job on ur sales pitch er what ever u want to call it... if only AGD could actually make a barrel that perfect.

:(

[M-a-s-sDriver]

...Mr. Tom Kaye Man...
Pumps are NOT dead!! I don't like your attitude concerning paintball's most honorable and exciting piece of equipment.
So you just apologise right now, and start working on the E-mag PUMP extreem, and maybe,...MAYBE I will forgive you. We'll see.
Brent Jackson, PFB.
PHANTOM totin' fool.

[polorboy]

When I read that post about the barrel I thought that you had to be pulling somthing out of your sleave, I was totaly shocked at the amount of posts that I read saying that they were going to but one just because you said to, even though some of them may have been joking around. I know from past experience that the research that I have done into finding a good barrel for me that the "crown point barrel" was a joke. I mean there is no way that there could be any accuracy with that barrel. And the part about the poor ball going out into the cruel world, OY ;).

[SiLeNt X]

i see.SO you have more respect for me for *edit* I have slapped your hand! you out? SOrry about being so harsh

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

it's not like he didn't retract it for months till he sold out of all of the crown points? he did it for a DAY. besides, part of his business is to see how he could sell things by putting out an ad. although it was a lie, it was still something he felt necisary for his business. i feel gyped that i didn't order one earlier and get a chance to get a free parts kit.

[Gambit1106]

Hey at first when I read it I was ready to order. Then the coffee kicked in the wheels started turning and it contradicted everything you stated in here and the tech class. So I went to the mode of what the heck it only 20 bucks I can always use it for something. I feel its a good eye opener for evryone on every product not even paintball. Always do your homework before you buy.

Darren

[X-Plosive]

I thought Tom was taking a journey with Puff the Magic dragon and I was going to post something but then I decided not too:D I see your point and IMO AO still has some people that will buy whatever you endorse.

[MajorDamage]

Hey, so does this mean I can get one and a RT parts kit all for $20? If so, I am so there! Let me know! Even if it isn't the super hype barrel you made it out to be, its still cool when a parts kit costs me $15 anyways! :D:D!

ENDO!

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

i think it might be to late. i'm pretty sure he meant for those that ordered believing the hype. not positive, but pretty sure.

[beam]

Originally posted by shartley
Dangerous game you just played.

What did your whole thread prove? Absolutely nothing close to what you think it did. It proved that you can SELL some people outright, confuse others, and not even come close to fooling a few more.

Shartley: In one sentence you say that Tom's thread didn't prove what he thought it did. And then in the next sentence, you say that it proved....exactly what he wanted it to.


It proved that you can SELL some people outright, confuse others, and not even come close to fooling a few more.[/B]

We all need to relax...chill out...

Tom wanted to prove that we weren't ALL just mindless sheep that would take this site, his advice, or AGD's word as gospel. There is still a ton of myth out in this industry. AGD is working HARD to debunk it. STARTING with the myth that AO ISN'T a good testing ground and source for feedback.

[marc]

Yep, Yep I had all you fooled, all my posts were just an act to help Tom. I knew it was fake all along even when I was about to order it, I knew it was fake. For everyone including me that didnt get Toms joke, that was one. But seriously, if I order one of the barrels will I still get a parts kit, and is AGD making a new barrel, after spending all that money on testing.

[Bonx0007]

I saw it. You made alot of people putty in your hands tom. That is scary. For a while there I thought everyone was going to start saying "His name is Robert Paulson...His name is Robert Paulson" Fight Club ref. anyway. I am glad I withstood the challenge. Tom thanks for keeping us on our toes.

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

TOM I WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE PUTTY IN YOUR HANDSS!!!! I WORSHIP U TOM!!! I was ready to go out and buy this barrel! man this hurt :(

[AGD]

Guys,

The discussion remains liveley and spirited, exactly what AO is about. Yes, maybe I threw you a curve ball and upset some people. I do appologize. The barrel really is a good deal at 20 bucks and we only have a couple dozen. If anything it has a good story behind it now. The fact of the matter is that only about 5-6 people ordered them and can cancel the orders if they like.

AGD

[FooTemps]

Actually I thought that was fun... I tried to keep everyone believing you were serious... Most people didn't belive you though.

[Whisper]

AGD,
I think that as a test this was a less than ideal subject. You have been very outspoken about barrel theory in the past, and presented a number of incongruities in your "sales pitch".

As an eye opener, however, it was terrific. It made us question our trust; question why we placed it in AGD and why we trust in general, at least in a consumer sense. The answer is that we trust AGD not only because it has been consistently honest and straightforward in the past, but also because AGD can back up what it says in the present with facts. This is a valuable lesson to everyone, trust is a great thing to have, but do your own research to make sure it is well founded.

Tom, I have lost no trust or respect for AGD due to your "test". Well done!

[MantisMag]

very few people are making any comments about his use of pseudo-science to sell the barrel. people do this all the time. they used half baked intellectual arguments that seem to make sense at first until you really look at them. many times if you don't know enough you'll be completely convinced that this person is right. the times that i see this the most often from individuals are in religion (christianity mostly) and with people trying to prove that fictional things could actually happen (comic books and sci-fi). it pops up with companies who are trying to sell products all the time.

tom mentioned a threshold that the paintball has to cross where suddenly there's a headwind. he made an analogy that is readily observable and seemed to make sense. the problem is that many people forget that air extends into the barrel. :eek: that's right. there is air in the barrel. i forget who else pointed this out. i also saw this immediately and was confused because in fact almost the opposite of what tom said is happening. there's a pressure wave that builds up in front of a paintball as it travels down the barrel. this pressure wave actually becomes less when it leaves the barrel not more. this is because the air is now able to move to the sides instead of just forward in front of the ball. so actually the resistance decreases when the ball leaves the barrel. sure the crown points would ease that pressure away. but no better than porting. in fact porting might be better. i don't know. i haven't done the research.

i personally didn't think about the bore size until after tom responded to the question about it. i think people really started getting confused once he started denying the importance of bore size. if it was just left with the first post then i think more people would have been taken in. it was much more believable and didn't go so strongly against what he's said in the past. sure if the crown points did what he said they did then the bore size might not be AS important. but completely dismissing bore size as vehemently as he did? that's what convinced me that something was really up. tom wasn't out of his mind he was up to something. hehe. i like the way he said the crown points would hold the ball in position. no explanation of how. they just do. so don't worry about it stupid. why worry about matching your paint to your bore exactly when you can just have the triangular holes do all the work for you? also the part about only the tip mattering. i could actually see that as working. shots wouldn't be very consistent but they would fly straight if the tip could somehow stabilize them right before they left the barrel. with that kind of barrel strategy you'd have a very narrow tall shot spread.

very interesting tom. i disagree with shartley. marketing and sales are very close. they are not opposite like black and white. definitely saw some marketing gimmicks pulled in. a lot of it was sales but i do think that there was some marketing. the whole advanced design ours is better than theirs thing. don't be stupid get a brain and buy this barrel instead of the others. arguments that seem to make sense until they are examined. these are all used in marketing. it's just a different marketing strategy. soda sells by product recognition. cars sell mostly by aesthetics so they go for exposure. paintball is more technical. although they do use these techniques they also sell by product knowledge. like computers they sell by spreading information that leads people to believe in their performance. a lot of you know quite a bit about computers and you'll understand. does a faster processor make your internet faster? no not unless your processor is EXTREMELY outdated. but i still see ads about computers with faster processors so that they can surf the web better. how about a graphics card? will that enhance your web browsing experience? not likely. and yet it sells computers on the basis of improved online performance. because people don't know. just like people don't know the physics to understand why paintball products don't work the way they are purported to. anyway that's enough. i think my post may be longer than shartley's. :p maybe not. pretty long though.

oh and if i was wrong about anything i said about the physics of paintball... oops. i didn't do any research that's just from my understanding of physics. hopefully i got it right. i did get an A in physics.

[DrEvil]

yeah I almost bought one. If only they came in chrome...

[Thordic]

Are you still going to sell the barrels? If you have a pile left over, I still want one! I told my dad to buy me one for my birthday in two weeks.

Its not about the hype, I just want a tuning fork for a barrel!!! :)

Keep them up in the store if you have the stock to support them, Tom, please!

[Snooky]

Um Something seemed wierd but i read through it and it did seem to make a little sense because it was tom saying it. Well i have to admit i fell for it however i have one of these barrels and people had talked so much about them being crap it didnt make sense. Im still gonna try mine out though had it for 2 years never shot a ball through it.

[joeyjoe367]

... So the people who were fooled got Crown point barrels AND a parts kit?!?!?

I wish I were more gullable :(

[hitech]

In case anyone is interested, I checked with the two friends of mine who ordered the barrels. One hadn't read the "post" and the other just thought it was funny. Neither bought it because of the hype, and neither wants to cancel their order. I've also decided that since i'll be getting a barrel and a parts kit for $20 I'll get over being used. :D

P.S. Tom, I'm still waiting for the stock mini mag barrels for $20. :)

[Riotz]

Funny, but good test. :D

If you would have just made the subject "$20 Crown Point Barrel" I bet you would have sold old.


shartley, don't be so harse. :rolleyes:

[Russ]

Tom,

As I said in my original post, I felt insulted by the way you "talked down" to the members here. Maybe you prooved some point to your goomba's, but you've lost some of my respect.

And talking about hyped up "junk", my superbolt sits at the factory, and no one there seems to know what to do about them. It was shipped .015" too long, and broke crazy amounts of paint. I have already felt as if I was "taken" by the hype of a less than useful product, which I bought because of AGD's reputation for selling only well-tested and quality products.

I have also pre-ordered a 4500 Flatline system from Drop Zone. I will call and cancel the order tommorrow. My faith in AGD products AND attitudes is changing. I will go with a proven 4500psi air system.

Russ :mad:

[FooTemps]

Russ,

Name one other product that performed as poorly as the superbolt... Yeah, that's right, the wire nubbin. With that fixed we only have one bad part... how can you change with ONE bad part? Almost all companies mess up once and a while...

[Blennidae]

Originally posted by AGD
AO,

At first I was worried but you passed the test well. I was at dinner with Swarm and one of the players commented that AO was not a good place to get feed back because everyone there was a Mag drone. While he mean it in a nice way he did have a point. I didn't have a good way to prove to him that he was wrong until I came across the question about the 8" Crown Point Barrel and started to reply. The reply turned into a test to prove my point, that collectively you all are NOT ALL ONE MIND.

AGD

Mr.Kaye,
I don't think what you did really proved your point the Swarm player brought up. You took a well known item, with less than stellar performance and went about "selling" it in a method different than your normal mode of business.

Many members noticed that you were acting differently and took it to mean you were joking/were not really serious.

I think to truly prove the point you would have to come up with a fictional product you know would make ZERO difference on performance, and "sell" it in your normal manner. If the masses followed the "word of Tom" without question, then we are all drones. Someone (hopefully more than one) would have to stand up against your claims, and win over the crowd.

Unfortunately it seems it might not really be worth the experiment. Even this more obvious one seems to have gotten out of hand.

Just my opinion...

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Army
If it helps any of you to feel better, we Mods were taken in at first, but then came to the conclusion that Tom was hanging around the steel door at the end of the hall during more military ball testing! (figured he took one too many to the head...)

Not all of us. I recognized it as pigeon crap immediately. :)

BTW, this was a good exercise. I think the only critics were those who got duped... :) It's a good eye opener for some... you can see how fallible your own precepts and opinions can really be, and the difficulties in assessing things that are not easily understandable - although naively you may think they may be. A lot of people don't take well to this idea, and often take offense... too bad for them.

Think beyond the box. :)

[AGD]

Russ,

I am very sorry you feel that way. Yes your bolt sits here because we had ONE bolt that was boiled, break. The 4500 systems are sitting here too while we test a half dozen for creep and flow. With the way things are going we are trying to be extra sure. Our current feedback from the forum tells us that if the bolts are going to break it will be in the first 500 shots. We are contemplating shooting every one 500 times.

I have noticed from other posts that you were on the edge because your son is shooting his cocker without hassles while you break paint. Because you have a control right next to you I had you targeted to try one of the new configurations in your Emag.

Maybe I did the wrong thing, and maybe it upset people. My comeback to that is, if I did the same thing every other manufacturer does I wouldn't even be here talking to you. This forum can hurt me more than it can help. The superbolt recall sure pointed that out.

If AGD has failed you then I don't deserve your respect. I know I am sitting here at 3:30 in the morning reading this post because I think what you and everyone else here has to say is important. If you still intend to leave, I understand completely. If you want to give us one more chance you can test the new setup.

Thanks,

Tom

[timebomb]

I don't understand how anyone can be po'd at Tom for playing a little `joke` on the users...I thought it was pretty funny and had a good laugh at both posts. If you guys take it farther then that, well then, you have to get off the computer and look at the real world. There are more companies screwing people over then ever, and to look at this satire of sorts as some sort of insult, you haven't been around long enough.

Mike

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Miscue


Not all of us. I recognized it as pigeon crap immediately. :)

Yes me too and posted as such. I thought he had truly gone nuts. Now I am uncertain as to if my suspicions were true...:confused:

[beam]

I still don't see what everyone is all upset about. You know that what Tom posted isn't his true self...right? Hence "putting on hat"

He didn't do this to get everyone convinced that the Crown Point is the best barrel and then go buy one. He did it to see if we would all just blindly rally behind him unconditionally. It could be said that we are a biased group here.

Not everyone on this board just numbly follows what AGD says. Good for us.

[ben_JD]

Well, this has certainly turned into an interesting situation. I was one of the several folks who read Tom's post and really felt as if the site had been hacked or someone got their hands on AGD's password and posted the crown point message. Then, when I looked at the store and saw the barrel, I felt as if something were amiss (coupled with the fact that the barrel was only $20). That all having been said, I was one of the folks who actually bought the barrel. First, I need a new barrel. Second, I knew the crown point to be a good barrel before this entire marketing scheme began. Third, it was only $20.

As for being mislead by AGD, I do have to say that I am a little uneasy with the way it played out. I understand the point he has made and appreciate it. In fact, AGD has been the one voice that consistently has told all to question everything that you hear; and along that vein, he remains consistent. My uneasiness comes into play when you consider some situations of long-time (and short-time) 'Mag users. We have ascertained the trustworthiness of this company and Tom Kaye as a person over the last decade (for me) and until now have had the luxury of not needing to question the motivation of every statement uttered by AGD; we have already made the determination that the source is trustworthy and can dive into the meat of the statement. Temporarily, at least, we are disavowed of this luxury.

I'm not upset with the company nor am I boycotting any product.

Furthermore, I stand by my crown-point barrel order. AGD, I expect it in the mail shortly.

[Riotz]

Originally posted by ben_JD
AGD, I expect it in the mail shortly.


Don't forget about your free parts kit. :D

[lazyrider77]

"We The Public really have no way of knowing for sure unless we are willing to do some stringent, controlled testing. Even IF we tested them thouroughly, who is to say those variables were unrelated to accuracy, and the real solution isn't something like barrel length?"
I think Drivers point is really a good one. This should be a warning to everyone out there who jumps on the Freak Kit bandwagon and throws bore size into every arguement. There is no "proof" of bore size/accuracy relation. Smart Parts may be doing the same thing Tom did, only they aren't going to admit it. Or, they may actually believe in the concept, that still doesn't make it valid. To me, it is still just a myth.

[beam]

Hmmm. I must be missing something. People act as if this was genuine Tom K. and now their trust in him is tarnished. My trust on the other hand has been strengthened. Tom put us, AO, to the sheep test and we passed. Granted, some of us went baaaa, baaaaa. And you know what the funny thing is, how he went about administering this test is something the REST of the paintball industry does ALL THE TIME. But, we don't boycott them or get all grumpy about it.

Tom...is it just me? I didn't think this thing had anything to do with barrels or marketing.

[OhMyAMoose]

Hahahahahaha, I got a kick out of that thread. I just knew Tom was up to something. I would just like to know how many people orded the barrel. I bet a good number did because it seems like people will do anything Tom says. Now I cant blame them because everything Tom has done seems to be correct. I am glad Tom did this because we need a good wake up call. We need something to keep us in check every now and then.
Thank Tom

[diehard]

I agree with Shartley, this is a dangerous game you just played, Tom... But, I think deciding not to buy from AGD is an extreme reaction.

In my opinion there is enough crap in this world that we must wade through to make this little <i>test</i> anything but funny. It is a good lesson. However, I think the motive behind the lesson was dumb. The whole thing was a bad idea to prove a point. You know what you know about AO'ers, Tom, and you shouldn't feel the need to <i>prove</i> anything about them to anyone. Stick to proving your products are what you say they are (in the opinion of most AO'ers, the best). But it did show us a few things. So, in that sense, your <i>test</i> wasn't all bad.

You would've done better to simply tell people on AO that they need to check everything out, even coming from AGD, and not just blindly beleive everything they hear or read. That would've been more consistant with my perception of you and AGD. Just say it straight.

<i><b>Russ-</b></i>
Order your flatline, 'cause it's the best. Don't sweat the <i>BS</i>. Don't let this foolishness stand in the way of getting a truely good product. You know that AGD's valves are the best in the business.



<i>Posted by MantisMag:</i>
<b>...people trying to prove that fictional things could actually happen...</b> You forgot to include the <i>theory</i> of evolution in your list.
;)

[Dragoon]

AGD, I think this was a good eerie as a bit of a wake-up call to let us all know we should questions what we read on the net (regardless of perceived source). However, I couldn't help but think of the story "Never Cry Wolf" as soon as I started reading this thread.

I haven't checked, but if you haven't deleted the dummy post I think you should. I hate for it to come back at you later.

Douglas.

[BradPalooza]

I tend to agree with Miscue's post that the people that got upset are the one's that blindly accepted it as truth.

The fact of the matter is, there are alot of drones out there. Be they followers of mag, cocker, or angel. For example, how many people are STILL saying that cockers shoot further/straighter/flatter than anything else?

The masses here have the unprecedented opportunity of being able to talk to the President of a paintball company and actually help influence the designs it's products. But to do that, we need to give him valuable feedback. Not just say "Yes Tom, it's perfect".

I say, good job - I hope this helps to get people to start thinking on their own.
-Brad

[bofh]

Originally posted by Dragoon
However, I couldn't help but think of the story "Never Cry Wolf" as soon as I started reading this thread.

Douglas.

Hmmm . I was thinking more along the lines of "The Emperors' New Clothes."

[joeyjoe367]

That's Strange... I was thinking of 3 blind Mice...

[tremis]

I was just waiting for somebody to post that their friend shot them and the end of the barrel with the vents shot off and smashed through his goggles and implanted itself in his sinus cavity.:D Of course the friend threw the parts away.
Oh I do love this forum.

Tremis

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by diehard
I agree with Shartley, this is a dangerous game you just played, Tom... But, I think deciding not to buy from AGD is an extreme reaction.

In my opinion there is enough crap in this world that we must wade through to make this little <i>test</i> anything but funny. It is a good lesson. However, I think the motive behind the lesson was dumb. The whole thing was a bad idea to prove a point. You know what you know about AO'ers, Tom, and you shouldn't feel the need to <i>prove</i> anything about them to anyone. Stick to proving your products are what you say they are (in the opinion of most AO'ers, the best). But it did show us a few things. So, in that sense, your <i>test</i> wasn't all bad.

You would've done better to simply tell people on AO that they need to check everything out, even coming from AGD, and not just blindly beleive everything they hear or read. That would've been more consistant with my perception of you and AGD. Just say it straight.

<i><b>Russ-</b></i>
Order your flatline, 'cause it's the best. Don't sweat the <i>BS</i>. Don't let this foolishness stand in the way of getting a truely good product. You know that AGD's valves are the best in the business.


You forgot to include the <i>theory</i> of evolution in your list.
;)

If your mom told you not to play on the stairs cause you can fall down and hurt your head would you listen? Now, If you actually fell down and hurt youre head would you listen more?

Alot more people listen more avidly when hey make thier own mistakes. Your mom can say it 15 million times but in the other case it only takes ONE time time to teach you a lesson.

I still think that this was a GREAT learning expereience to all that participated. This should be on display as an example of how EASILY people can get duped by marketing that occurs in the paintball world. This is why I URGE tom to put these 2 posts in the classics.

[manike]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
I still think that this was a GREAT learning expereience to all that participated. This should be on display as an example of how EASILY people can get duped by marketing that occurs in the paintball world.

Is it about people being duped by marketing or by people blindly following Tom and AGD and telling Tom what they think he wants to hear. There is a big difference... He would have gotten a very different result had he posted the same thread on another board unrelated to AGD. Here I'd say 30-40 percent were prepared to comment against him, nearly 50% went with him (just guestimates) elsewhere I would have said 90% would have gone "shut up your full of crap..." I do think if we only look at this board then we are not seeing a true cross section of the market. That is dangerous and what I think this was all about. It wasn't to try a new marketing approach. Tom himself hinted it wasn't in his reply to Shartley.

What if he wasn't marketing a product (and not one we where so many of us obviously new something was up). What if it was a new idea or design and people rather than questioning it, just said 'yeah Tom great I will buy one'... But never did. It's happened with the Z-grip. People say they are desperate for them, 10 turn up and then take 6 months to sell (or something like that). There is more than one way to see what all this is about and what just happened. You need to keep your eyes wide open and be wary at all times.

manike

[Russ]

Just to perhaps clarify a few things...

A) I feel the "joke" Tom played was rude.

B) Superbolts were released for sale before they should've been. 'Nuff said.

C) I choose not to buy a 4500 Flatline because I do not want to be the "Crash Test Dummy". They may work fine, they may have "issues". Ill let someone else find that out.I have less than 100% faith in the product. I will wait and see how they perform in the real world before I fork out the $400 for one. That's my choice. I'm not doing it to "punish" AGD. I'm just trying to get a good reliable product for my $$$.

[cphilip]

Right on Manike!

People... Tom needs your real thoughts not just agreement and suck up. On this site there is far too much of that. Don't be afraid to be skeptical and be different. And for heavens sakes quit crucifying the ones who do! Far too much of that. Disagree with tact and logic. But for God sakes have your own mind about things!

I will repeat my comment to the other Mods yesterday that was in sarcastic intent "...I plan to beg and beg for one and then never buy one...:)" This indeed happens all the time here.

And from what I saw Manikes statistics are a good estimate. So what good are we to AGD if we go along with everything as gospel? Not much I fear. No..I personally do not think Toms method was as effective as he had hoped nor would I have chosen it. But perhaps in the long run? He might turn out to have caused something to happen that needed too. I am optimistic.

Think about it.

[Paintchucker]

I guess the old saying of let the buyer beware holds true, and always will. My thought was that if this barrel was really that good, they never would have changed the design in the first place. What was BFL for anyway? I was guessing Bold Face Lyers. :)

Anywho, I was playing around with some stuff. I just bought an Emag, so I am selling off some of my other guns. I am selling my retro valve, so I pulled out my early 1990's minimag valve and put the matching foamie bolt in it. I notice that it has a high pitch ring to it that no longer exists in the newer bolts. So is the singing crown point barrel really available? I was considering getting one just for the heck of it. You get strange looks from other players wondering what that sound is. LOL...

[the JoKeR]

Originally posted by cphilip
So what good are we to AGD if we go along with everything as gospel

You mean there's no "special" KoolAid in this cult? I'm turning in my robe!:D

Marketing can be evil! Welcome to my world.....

[FaSSt]

I was initially a little mystified and disturbed by the thread.

Then I realized that the basic problem, as eventually demonstrated by the thread, has nothing to do with Tom Kaye, AGD, or even paintball. Instead, the problem stems from the basic inability of most people to read and think CRITICALLY. Evaluate everything, regardless of the source. Young people generally have not yet full learned this lesson yet, but older readers have no excuse for not being able to identify what was going on.

If you read carefully, you could eventually tell that this was something other than a "normal", factual thread - there was too much rambling, too many issues were skirted, and quite a few provocative statements were thrown around.

In summary - the whole thing was mildly amusing but definitely not malicious. If anything, I think that Tom Kaye actually demonstrated (by creating a parody of their statements) the contempt with which some companies treat their consumers.

I do disagree with Tom Kaye, however. I DO believe that many, many people are VERY DESERVING OF CONTEMPT, because they fail to learn the basic skills necessary to separate truth from lies. Even young adults are included in this - for instance, if some of them actually cared about learning Math, Physics, Philosophy or English (so that they can read critically), they would not be the dumb, easily-influencable consumers and people that they are. You know who you are.

Lastly, there is a very real downside to being "acessible" as the top guy in an organization - sometimes familiarity detracts from the respect people treat you with. You military guys know that there is a reason officers and enlisted men are not supposed to hang out together too much.

This is a paintball website, people. If your sense of self-worth is iseriously mpacted by anything that is said here, you have problems.

[MantisMag]

i'm surprised noone has considered this. what if this "test" had some ulterior motive? was there really dinner with Swarm? or is that just a fiction created to hide the truth? perhaps tom is preparing for AGD's takeover of the world. he needs to see who can be trusted in here. rest assured that each post was looked at very carefully and names were taken down. tom needs to know who can be truted to be his lieutenants and who are his mindless drones. soon my friends. soon. our time is coming. muahahaha.

[diehard]

<i>Originally Posted by Butterfingers</i>
<b>...Alot more people listen more avidly when hey make thier own mistakes. Your mom can say it 15 million times but in the other case it only takes ONE time time to teach you a lesson.

I still think that this was a GREAT learning expereience to all that participated.</b>

I agree with you butterfingers, as I said in my post, <i>it is a good lesson</i>. However, in keeping with your analogy, there is a difference between a mom letting a kid fall down the stairs and a mom who pushed her kid down the stairs. You wouldn't trust your mom if she pushed you. However, if she told you the truth, that you may fall and hurt yourself, and you did it anyways... then yes, you would learn your lesson, and also your respect for your mother would greatly increase and you may even listen to her next time.

I think the whole analogy is off, 'cause this issue isn't that important. But it just has to do with truth and trust.
BONESisAgod lied, probably for fun... Tom lied to prove a point. Both lies cost people a little respect and a little money. The moral of the story is <i>keep the BS to yourself and just be honest and straightforward.</i>

[Miscue]

Originally posted by FaSSt
I was initially a little mystified and disturbed by the thread.

Then I realized that the basic problem, as eventually demonstrated by the thread, has nothing to do with Tom Kaye, AGD, or even paintball. Instead, the problem stems from the basic inability of most people to read and think CRITICALLY. ....*Insert long post here*....

This is a paintball website, people. If your sense of self-worth is iseriously mpacted by anything that is said here, you have problems.

Oooh... My thoughts EXACTLY. People are unnecessarily applying emotional attachment to what's been said - and are basing their criticisms here. They fall before reaching a point of understanding... let alone a proper deconstruction of what's been said, and all resulting opinions are verily worthless and ignorable as far as paper-and-pencil reasoning is concerned - if you want to go so far. If you are versed in the constructs of formal logic, rhetoric becomes readily distinguished... and intentions discernable. If that is beyond one's capacity, the point is lost... which seems to be the closely defended battlement of these critics.

TK is guilty of no malice, the perceived fault lies elsewhere...

[Vegeta]

A few comments Tom....

1) That was not good. It was smart, but not cool. It was an expiriment, a test, and I undersatnd that, but you could have just lost alot of peoples trust. When you post questions or descriptions of new products, some people will think "Is he testing us again?" I do understand that companies have to test the marketing waters now and then, but doing that to your trusty AO is risky.

2) Some of us thought you had gone insane. Verdict still pending on that one.

3) We desreved it. Well, no we didn't, but basically you kinda of did to us like what the "got hit by superbolt" kid did to you. I'm not sayign you lied, I'm sure all that you said was true, but it was a kick in the face. Now, all of hte sudden, trying to market a 10 year old barrel like it was brand spankin new and the best in the world.

4) Your fellow followers may have thought this was hte best thing and spent 20$ that they could have put toward soemthign they really needed, like a warp, a new gun, skitz pills.. etc. I'm not saying that 20$ for that thing isn't worht it.. it is... but still. You could have mislead soem people.



Well.. You didn't do anything to me.... No mag = no need to buy barrel for mag. I thought your advertisign was odd.. but thats all. Some mag owners might feel like they are not informants anymore, but tools.

Just my unbaised, egotistic opinion :).

[Minimag4me]

i have noticed a lot of you are really toms sheep

Example:

BonesisaGod lies and everyone gets mad and yells at him and such. His lie affected the company but not the general public/consuemers. The company isnt yours(exception=tom) so you have no right to be mad(Unless you payed the 90 cents to ship your superbolt back). Tom does.

Tom Kaye lies and everyone just waves it off just because its tom. Toms lie may have affected some of the general public so we(general consumer) should be mad right? Not according to majority of the people here because he is tom!

(i dont support what BonesisaGod or AGD did im just making a point about sheep)

[MantisMag]

i don't quite understand what you guys are saying in these last couple of posts. did you read tom's first post on this thread? anybody who ordered the crown point had the option to get their money back. also this only went on for a single day. everybody who's pissed acts like this went on for a long period of time. the things he said were NOT true. he was obviously not trying to dupe everyone because he offered them their money back. of course some people want the barrel anyway because it's cheap and it's decent even though it's not what he said it was. those people were given free parts kits with their barrels. so nobody was hurt by this.

some people have lost their trust in tom. maybe that's close to what he wanted. maybe tom doesn't want us all to just go along with whatever he says. tom said that back in the 80's when he was selling this barrel he actually believed a lot of the things he just told us. well he was wrong. that's right. tom kaye was wrong. tom kaye can make mistakes. i think that if he made a mistake now and told us about it he wouldn't want us to sit here and tell him how great it is. i think he would want us to say "uh... tom, that doesn't sound right i think you better take another look at that." question everything you hear. even from tom. cause nobody can be right all the time.

however in terms of tom betraying our trust and misleading us, no. he was not trying to sell us these barrels and take advantage of us. some people just don't seem to be able to grasp the facts that this only lasted for a day before tom came clean and that nobody lost their money. no AO members were harmed in the making of this test. any damage done was not caused by tom but by your perceptions of these events.

[Minimag4me]

I didnt buy the barrel, i didnt lose any thing. i know and agree with MantisMag but i still dont like the fact of being delibertely lied to. i do it too but im not perfect, i do try not to on the forum though. I just believe everyone is being like sheep and giving Tom a big pat on the back for something negative he did even if there was no harm. Sometimes coming clean the next day isnt enough.

Example:I killed someone but i brought him back to life. Would everyone congradulate me and say it was a good learning experience? Would it be wrong in the first place? NO harm no foul right?

(i know this doesnt have anything to do with tom, it was the first negitive thing i could think of)

Vegeta: i just realized i kinda copied your example with the superbolt kid, sorry

[hitech]

Originally posted by MantisMag
He was not trying to sell us these barrels and take advantage of us.

An important point to remember. I didn't like being used, but getting "free" stuff cured me of that. :D

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by Minimag4me
i have noticed a lot of you are really toms sheep

Example:

BonesisaGod lies and everyone gets mad and yells at him and such. His lie affected the company but not the general public/consuemers. The company isnt yours(exception=tom) so you have no right to be mad(Unless you payed the 90 cents to ship your superbolt back). Tom does.

Tom Kaye lies and everyone just waves it off just because its tom. Toms lie may have affected some of the general public so we(general consumer) should be mad right? Not according to majority of the people here because he is tom!

(i dont support what BonesisaGod or AGD did im just making a point about sheep)


Tom's "lie" didnt cost anybody money in the long run, he offered refunds. no harm done. Bones made AGD loose lots of money and turned it into a legal issue there is a HUGE diffrence there.

[Butterfingers]

some of you guys gotta calm down you make it out like Tom had an intention of deceiving you for motives other than stated. I still trust Tom because I know his intentions. If tom actually tried to deplete his stock of those barrels by lying to us then I would be pissed. It wasent, it was a learning experience for all of us.

Its like you never had a joke played on you by your friends. I really didnt think it was a big deal.

[Minimag4me]

The deliberate not telling of truth(lie) occured in both cases. It still is not morally correct(im not saying i never lie, i can hear you all scream hypocrite).

A lie is a lie.

edit:I understand what your saying but i dont need to calm down im just expressing my ideas on the matter(its what tom wants)

[Butterfingers]

So you mean we are never allowed to make jokes???

So that time when I told my friend his car was being towed away... Forgive for I have commited a great moral evil!!!

What counts is what he INTENDED to do. I intended to play a joke on my friend. Tom inteded to teach us how easily we can be decieved by marketing.

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
Tom, that was the best impersonation of Smart Parts iv'e seen to date.

DONT EVER DO THAT AGAIN!!! :) You scared the crap out of me.
what happened?

[Minimag4me]

lets not get in a big arguement, but when you told your friend his car was being towed did you write two page long letters using common marketing techniques to make him buy your car. Tom basically told us all we know about bore size is a lie so buy his product to fix everything. Tom didnt intend to teach us anything he intended to win a bet that not everyone is a sheep but you are right he did what he intended.

If i were to blow up that car you were telling you friend that was being towed, i did what i intended. Does that make it right?

Just remember sometimes jokes are cruel and can hurt people.

[MantisMag]

Originally posted by Minimag4me
Tom didnt intend to teach us anything he intended to win a bet that not everyone is a sheep but you are right he did what he intended

i disagree somewhat. his main intention may not have been to teach us a lesson. personally i feel that teaching us was a secondary goal. the main point wasn't a bet. not really. sure someone else brought it up and he wanted to prove his point to them but it was also to reassure himself. haven't you ever had someone say that what you believed is wrong and afterward you wondered if they might be right? did you go and check just to make sure? it's obvious that tom spends a lot of time on these forums. he needs to know just how much weight to give what he reads here. that was the real reason for this. can you imagine how worried he was during those first posts? the early posts all jumped on the crown points. it was a while before the dissenting opinions started to show up. probably there was a pause while they tried to figure out what was going on. :rolleyes: then after some well respected people here on the forums started to post that tom had gone mad or was overworked or was abusing glue we start to see the majority of posts wondering what is going on. toward the end there are very few who say they are going to actually buy the crown point or if they do they state their reason as being the price. imagine tom's relief as his trust in these forums is validated. we do not blindly follow him. we will not fall for the ploys he used. THAT was the true purpose to the Crown Point Affair. :cool:

[Oregon_pb_]

If we order the CP barrel right now do we still get the parts kit free?

If so i'm gunna order 2 probably, 1 to practise drilling, and second cause my emag currently doesn't have a stock barrel if i sell it w/o the freak.

[Wild_Osiris]

I for one am happy Tom did this. Not for his or even AO's accord, but for the sake of him posting it first. I orginally thought about posting about Fanaticism to the point of arrogance! There is no better example then my current local shop owner. A few years ago (to him) mags and cockers were it. This was in 97, 98/99 came around and then it was shockers and angels. 2000 hits and now it's the unbelieveable priced impulse. Finally it has come back to cockers. A complete three sixty I say. He says mag's are (dare I say it) garbage! I talked to him and asked what he thinks about an emag, he said it's a piece of human feces. That it breaks paint leaveing piles of fecial matter in the barrel. I asked him what about the eye they're going to put. "mags hit balls to hard" (says he). But a cocker now that's the gun. I shot it and was very impressed.

Guess what I am now a cocker owner and maybe for the first time my mag just might not be my first, it may be a good back up. This isn't to say I hate mags. I just took Tom's and budd's advise." buy them both". Well I might be getting off topic here. so...

Looking at this mag forum was really starting to depress me. People were following the mags like a cult. Everything the leader said people would follow with few opposition or exception. I admit for a time I was sucked in to it. But this forum started to turn and be snobbish. (like the kinda of guys that have there fingers up there nose and say hmm Yes. aka monopoly guy). It was my mag mag mag mag mag is the best. Great you should feel proud of your maker but to say it kills or is overall the better gun out of all the others is a fallacy. (Illogical statement) I mean people would come here and ask which gun should I get and man the swarm would quickly rally saying "to get the mag".(in nearly any case). Then I would feel the worst of aura's from this place.(one that said were not like other forums we dont dicrimate).

In conclusion I think with the addition of many new people to this forum we see alot of mag men (simular to a yes men). I am sorry if this is harsh, and here again I am spreading fallacy's.(Ironic?) It's just the way I have come to feel about this forum. They have a family bond that maybe shouldnt be as strong. I do see feeling sorry for Tom when he was almost in trouble with that superbolt incident. I atleast felt sorry and it angered me but, I never yelled at that kid. My wisest manager told me yelling never gets anything solved. So Tom I am glad that you tested us. (also note to some people this is not oh wow! Agd is being truthful about there products what a great company! Just so I dont have to hear that.)

[rhetor22]

i think some one spiked the coke.

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by Minimag4me
lets not get in a big arguement, but when you told your friend his car was being towed did you write two page long letters using common marketing techniques to make him buy your car. Tom basically told us all we know about bore size is a lie so buy his product to fix everything. Tom didnt intend to teach us anything he intended to win a bet that not everyone is a sheep but you are right he did what he intended.

If i were to blow up that car you were telling you friend that was being towed, i did what i intended. Does that make it right?

Just remember sometimes jokes are cruel and can hurt people.

If I blew up his car he would be a couple of thousand dollars in the hole. In this case, if you wanted to you could get your money back or a free parts kit ($20 value) for participating.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Wild_Osiris
I mean people would come here and ask which gun should I get and man the swarm would quickly rally saying "to get the mag".(in nearly any case).

This is a automag forum. Most people here own a mag as their primary marker. Why? Most likely because they think it is the best (for the money, for the type of playing they do, etc). Of course they are going to recommend it. It's what they decided to buy. I've met VERY few people who will ask a lot of questions and recommend something other than what they personally use.

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
This forum can hurt me more than it can help.

Another very important point to remember.

[Vegeta]

"I think someone spiked the coke"

It's DIET PEPSI.

Well, I don't think anyone will totally stop buying from AGD becuase of this. Russ, admit it... you will keep you mag. You will eventually figure out htat its the way to go.

[AGD]

110 posts and 1600 views later the discussion continues. This illustrates that paintball players as a group are very diverse and harbor a variety of opinions. In a way it's strange they come together at all because in many respects they are not "like minded" people. It no wonder we as manufacturers have a hard time figuring out what you like!

I think it's interesting that an overblown sales pitch sparks such debate here when it doesn't in the general paintball world. I don't think I have ever seen a thread commenting on the pros or cons of a manufacturers add claims.

Maybe this is the start of a whole new way of looking at paintball. Instead of saying "that product is junk" it will turn into "prove it works!". Now that would be interesting.

AGD

[Miscue]

Oooh... Prove it Works... I'll have to change my sig now... :)

[Russ]

Vegeta said...

Russ, admit it... you will keep your mag.

Well I never said that was going to sell off any of my AGD stuff. I may get the E-Mag converted to an extreme when the time comes...anti-chop eye sounds like a good thing (I hope)

I also did not cancel the order for the 4500 Flatline. I'm still not sure why. Tom, "prove it works!" I sure hope I don't regret it.

[BTAutoMag]

were loyal to tom if he says its good then thats good enough for most of us

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
"prove it works!". Now that would be interesting.

That would be revolutionary.

[hotty9669]

Shartley marketing and selling ARE the same they are just different steps in the process. With big ticket items marketing is used to get you in the showroom so you can be sold. The Chevy truck looks good AND is safe for my family ie.. it will not roll over avoiding obstacles like some SUV's. Marketing gives you preconceived notions about what a product will do for you. Take your Mountain Dew for example do people think that they can sky surf like a pro after drinking a can no, but does it plant the idea of being young, free, and cool? Yes! Whether you want to believe it or not we all react to these messages at some level.
Marketing is selling by putting these ideas in your head which then leads to you at the wal-mart looking at ten different brands of the same product all in the same price group but one tends to stand out because somewhere in your head you are thinking that one is safer, sexier, has a better company behind it. At stores like Wal-Mart or Best Buy (most of the time) you do not have people telling you why to buy one over the other the marketing has already told you that.
In the end marketing leads you to one product over another.
As this pertains to AGD part of the marketing they do (whether they realize it or not) is their customer service, and the fact that the products they release work.
This gives AGD the "market" reputation of tank like products that a company stands behind, and are actual improvements which leads a lot of former smart parts owners their way.

Well that my rant for now.

[gimp]

When did this happen? I missed the whole thing.

[Smoken]

I think it happened like a week ago. It was the day Tom made this thread I'm pretty sure.

[Jonno06]

Who knows where i can get that crown point barrel for 20$????I want one for memories.(colectable now!)BTW...Tom,Little John had a crown point barrel on his mag in the very old mag video.The one with first nitro introduced,and introduction of mimimag.How??
PS...I like being one of Tom's sheep anyway!!

[DJSOLID]

I've never posted here before.
I've never bought anything online before I bought a hat and some stickers on the 10th and patches from AGD and the following day (the 11th)I ordered that barrel. I didn't even read whatever you guys are talking about "big marketing hype thing" - I just saw it and ordered it. I thought "this is the only barrel on the site - it must be good". I got the barrel and the parts kit today in ups. No one will probably read this anyway, but I'm kinda confused and well, probably won't buy anything from Airgun Designs again. My buddy told me I was spending too much on this minimag I bought from a field i play at - that I should just buy a tippmann or something but I wanted quality. I'm obviously not as into paintball yet as some (most) of you guys/gals are and now I'm not so sure I want to be. Now that I realize I've been duped - do I keep this crown point and take the pat on the head with the parts kit cookie? Does this sort of "test" happen all the time? Cause the second day I ever used this site it happened...

[hitech]

Originally posted by DJSOLID
Now that I realize I've been duped - do I keep this crown point and take the pat on the head with the parts kit cookie?

I'd keep it, but then when I bought mine I WANTED it. You got a bonus parts kit ($20 retail, BTW) also. Since you have a used marker the parts kit will come in handy some day. As far as I know (haven't received mine yet) the barrel is fine, esp. for $20. Worth it in my opinion. Put it on the marker and find out for yourself.

BTW, are YOU happy with your automag? If so, don't worry about what other think.

Good luck, not that you'll need it! :D

[spyderkiller]

mmmm.....automag....automag good....mmmmm
We are AO....resistance is futile.