Is Microline Starving my RT Mag?

[jitspoe]

I purchased a classic Automag RT from ebay. It was a full setup with a tank,cradle, asa, and microline. I've struggled to get it working well for a while and finally disassembled every last piece of it, cleaned everything, replaced the o-rings and spring with an rt parts kit, lubed everything well, and it's still not firing correctly. It's like the recharge is messed up. I think the correct term is "chuffing"? It will sometimes make a weak "pft" sound, propel a ball about 5 feet, and the sear rod won't come all the way back. Sometimes it will stick all the way back and won't fire at all for a bit. I don't have level 10 (yet), so it can't be problems with that (which seems to be all I find when searching around for my symptoms).

I think the cleaning helped a bit, but it's still not right. After watching the old automag video, I'm starting to wonder if it's a case of "bolt stick" and I need a larger spacer. I'm also a bit curious about the filter. I didn't even know it had one until I took it apart. It seems like it restricts air flow a lot (I tried blowing through it), more than microline would, but it could just be a combination of the two that's causing the problem. I'm curious if I should remove it (though I don't know how). Most mags just have a direct line and don't go through a filtered front grip.

I've ordered a braided steel line, some elbows, and a pressure gauge. Even if that isn't the problem, it's still probably a good idea to have some heavier line.

[Smoothice]

Are you using HPA or Co2?

How much air do you have?

[djellum]

You shouldnt need filters inline unless you use CO2. The filters are meant to collect the liquid to make your gun more consistant. An RT mag should only be run on HPA so make sure you dont use CO2. Which also means you dont need filters. I would remove them.

I wouldnt think the line would starve the marker unless you shoot really fast, but its a lot easier to just switch to braided or macro since there more common anyway.

if your using CO2 that is likely the problem. If not, bolt stick sounds likely, or a low output pressure on your tank. A little more info and someone can answer better.

[athomas]

The microline could restrict recharge and cause drop-off during rapid firing, but it won't hurt normal operation of the gun.

It sounds like you are getting bolt stick. If you have already replaced the bolt spring, the next step is to use a longer powertube spacer.

[jitspoe]

Thanks for the tips. I'm going to upgrade to level 10, so if spacers are the issue, I'll probably be able to get them straightened out then. I thought it would be a good idea to get all the problems worked out before upgrading to reduce the variables, but if the problem IS the bolt, then there's no sense in getting it working well just to switch it out.

As for the filter -- is there an easy way to remove it? I tried pulling it out when I had my mag disassembled, but it seemed to be embedded pretty well -- possibly welded. I could dremel it out as a last resort, but I'd prefer not to take any irreversible actions. It's kind of strange that they would put it on a HPA-only design.

[djellum]

Thanks for the tips. I'm going to upgrade to level 10, so if spacers are the issue, I'll probably be able to get them straightened out then. I thought it would be a good idea to get all the problems worked out before upgrading to reduce the variables, but if the problem IS the bolt, then there's no sense in getting it working well just to switch it out.

As a rule I like to start with a working marker before upgrading unless you are positive its the bolt. Will likely save a lot of headache later.

As for the filter -- is there an easy way to remove it? I tried pulling it out when I had my mag disassembled, but it seemed to be embedded pretty well -- possibly welded. I could dremel it out as a last resort, but I'd prefer not to take any irreversible actions. It's kind of strange that they would put it on a HPA-only design.

Where is it exactly? Input of valve? It probably isnt welded unless it was a completely cracked out DIY job. Really need to know where it is to say for sure though. You could get a long course threaded screw and thread it into the filter and use it for leverage. Dont forget to completely dismantle everything so that you are left with just the metal houseing and the filter before you start.

[jitspoe]

http://jitspoe.planetquake.gamespy.com/images/photos/paintball/rt_filter.jpg

Sorry about the quality, but I'm not disassembling it again to get a better photo of the filter. :) That copper colored thing is the filter. It looks like a bunch of tiny beads of metal melted together.

[behemoth]

It screws in.

<img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/htomeheb/Picture005.jpg" width="700">

Also, whats the output pressure of your tank?

[jitspoe]

It screws in.

<img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/htomeheb/Picture005.jpg" width="700">

Also, whats the output pressure of your tank?
Ah, guess I just needed a bit more elbow grease. I didn't want to break it. My tank output pressure should be ~800psi, but I don't have a gauge to tell for sure. I have one on the way.

[jitspoe]

Looks like the line probably didn't have anything to do with it. I hooked up the new drop-forward with a braided steel line and removed the filter, and it still didn't fire correctly. I just got a level 10 upgrade in, and after some tweaking and brief testing, I think I have it working correctly. I did notice something kind of peculiar, though. I put a gauge on my new ASA and it reads just slightly over 800, but after I fire, it drops down to 700-ish and slowly climbs back up to 800 over a period of 10 seconds or so. Is that normal? Will it cause variation in the velocity?

[[NA]WARLORD]

The filters are meant to collect the liquid to make your gun more consistant.

Umm, no, the filter is designed to collect debris/particles found in C02.

[djellum]

That can definately cause variation. Its normal for the gauge to jump around a bit when shooting but it should do it superquick and not take any time to charge back up. Try rebuilding your reg and see if it helps.

[djellum]

forgot to mention - dont use any oils on the HPA tank. flamable lubricants + HPA = boom. Dont know if you knew about that but didnt want to take the chance.

[athomas]

As mentioned, the gauge should measure the pressure in realtime (as close as mechanically possible) in your ASA. This would be a pretty good indication of the recharge ability of your tank. If its not coming back immediately following a shot, then there is something not quite right. The tank regulator may need to be cleaned.

If you fire more than a couple of shots per second, you will more than likely experience chuffing with it acting the way it is now.

[jitspoe]

forgot to mention - dont use any oils on the HPA tank. flamable lubricants + HPA = boom. Dont know if you knew about that but didnt want to take the chance.
I saw this (http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2325446), and I certainly won't be using oil anywhere near my HPA tank. Ever. :)

Is there any kind of grease/lubrication I should be using? It might also be the gauge I purchased. It wasn't exactly high-dollar. I'll have to try another tank as well and see if it exhibits the same behavior.

[behemoth]

What brand HPA tank?

Most tanks will recharge almost instantly, split second. If its taking that long to recharge, you're getting crazy shootdown from a slow reg.

[jitspoe]

It's an Empir3 tank - 4500 PSI (I think 68ci, but I don't have it in front of me to check). I tested with my 3000 psi crossfire, and it instantly recharges, so it isn't the gauge. It also fires a LOT better with the crossfire.

[behemoth]

Never heard anything good or bad about the empires, but you just proved that it has a slow recharge.

As much as i'd rather play with a 68/45 fiber bottle tank, if the 68/3000 steelie recharges better, go with that.

Use the Crossfire, Get some macroline/steel braided hose, and make sure everyhing is oiled, and you should have no issues at all.

[jitspoe]

Unfortunately my crossfire is 114ci or something crazy like that. It is carbon fiber, but it's massive. It came with the gun (got it on ebay) and had a cradle with microline. It took a lot of work to get the new drop forward/asa and steel line on without leaks, so I'd prefer not to touch that again to get that monster on again.

I looked at some of the pbreview reviews on the empire tank (http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/3837/), and they were all really positive. Supposedly it has a really good recharge rate. Something is clearly wrong with mine. I'm hesitant to disassemble it and tinker, though. If something goes wrong at 4500 psi...

[djellum]

HPA tanks are actually pretty easy to work with, but do some research and make sure your comfortable before starting. You could switch the regs on the tanks or rebuild the one on the steely. Probably the best solution is to sell them and buy one good tank like a cp or something. The easiest is probably to just switch the regs since that would only take 15-20 min.

[jitspoe]

I talked to the guy in the shop at Paintball Kingdom - he seemed pretty knowledgeable - and as soon as I mentioned what kind of tank it was he said something like, "Let me guess, you're having recharge problems." He said the Empire, Java (Kingman's), and I forget the 3rd all have really bad recharge rates.

Strange thing is, when I tried it out on the field, it wasn't doing the start at over 800, drop to 700 and slowly climb thing. It was staying pretty consistent at ~750-780, but that wasn't enough for my mag to fire correctly. Thinking back, I may have just needed to adjust the velocity, but I didn't want to mess with anything since it took so long to get the level 10 tweaked. I just used the massive 114ci tank (I can't get away from that thing!). It worked out ok since I had a really long dropforward.