How does Bob Long fit in the great conspiracy?

[Spider-TW]

There's lots of discussion about patents concerning electro markers and the damage they have or have not done to AGD, AKA, etc.

In all of this I have never seen any mention of Bob Long markers, particularly Intimidators, which seem to fit the description and design very well. The Intimidator shares many design features with the SP impulse and the Viking.

I can only figure three possibilities; 1) Bob Long has made a deal with or is paying royalties to SP. 2) He has managed to legally defend his designs as unique or pre-existing. 3) SP is not as vicious as they have been made out to be.

If someone could explain how the Intimidator does or does not fit in to that picture, it would help put a clearer perspective on the whole history. For that matter the Ego is similar too. How about Eclipse?

:cheers:

[warbeak2099]

Eclipse is a British company, SP has a U.S. patent.

I'm not sure about BLAST. When Bob was with NPS I just figured that SP wouldn't dare take on a larger, more wealthy company in court. But now that BLAST is a separate company, I'm not sure what is keeping SP at bay. It's not like Timmy's are the "in" gun anymore.

[Spider-TW]

Eclipse is a British company, SP has a U.S. patent.
A patent restricts the sale of the specified item (in the U.S.) doesn't it? Just because the Chinese make a bunch of knock-offs (beyond name brand stuff) in China does not allow them to legally sell them in the U.S..

Otherwise, we could talk to the Taurus factory and open AGD Brazil for stainless electro mags. :bounce:

Sintered powder titanium frames...mmmmm.

[Jackel411]

Ive been told... weather or not this is true I have yet to figure out. That they are untouchable due to their guns (classic intimidators) being one of the first mass produced guns with electronic anti chop eyes....

Now SP can sue them for making electros, but they BLAST can counter sue for them using an anti chop eye system in there guns.

[Spider-TW]

Ah, the Mutually Assured Destruction theory applied to business. That would be interesting.

[y0da900]

They pay royalties. When they were with NPS, they were under protection from agreements that NPS had with SP. When they split, they had to reforge an agreement for themselves. Or so I've read several times.

Has nothing to do with eyes, the navy patented specifically breakbeam eyes in the 70's for pneumatic training guns, and Kurt (I think) was the first to put them in a modern paintball gun. They have no exclusivity to the design, just the first to mass market it from the factory.

[Spider-TW]

And the NPS agreement would also protect the invert mini?

I guess that agreement has become some valuable property for NPS. I always wondered why they kept going while most other 'suppliers' closed down or narrowed their market in the old days.

[warbeak2099]

A patent restricts the sale of the specified item (in the U.S.) doesn't it? Just because the Chinese make a bunch of knock-offs (beyond name brand stuff) in China does not allow them to legally sell them in the U.S..

Not quite. The patent restricts U.S. companies from manufacturing/building/making guns which fire using an electronic switch. PE is not a U.S. company nor is it making it's guns in the U.S. It would be super expensive, time consuming, and a waste for SP to sue PE. They tried it with WDP, another British company. Other factors caused them to lose the case, but they saw how expensive and foolish an international suit was.

[bryceeden]

yes, BLAST alreadt settled with SP. They're paying or have paid something.

[Spider-TW]

Not quite. The patent restricts U.S. companies from manufacturing/building/making guns which fire using an electronic switch. PE is not a U.S. company nor is it making it's guns in the U.S. It would be super expensive, time consuming, and a waste for SP to sue PE. They tried it with WDP, another British company. Other factors caused them to lose the case, but they saw how expensive and foolish an international suit was.

Yeah, the Chinese analogy is on too big of a scale to compare to markers.

Taurus does make a lot of copies...

[Lohman446]

Not quite. The patent restricts U.S. companies from manufacturing/building/making guns which fire using an electronic switch. PE is not a U.S. company nor is it making it's guns in the U.S. It would be super expensive, time consuming, and a waste for SP to sue PE. They tried it with WDP, another British company. Other factors caused them to lose the case, but they saw how expensive and foolish an international suit was.


What? They lost because WDP had a claim to the patent as equally valid as SPs, or so a court decided. It had NOTHING to do with WDP being based in Europe. A US patent offers protection theoretically world wide, and most definetly in the US. If nothing else SP could stop the import of PE markers. I bet, if one looks closely, they are going to find an agreement between SP and PE.

[KRAKMT]

Lohman is right. There are rules for registering patents in foreign coutries under a couple international agreements like the Burnes act- IIRC. Given that SP is controlled by patent agents I suspect the patent is not only as broad as possible but registered everywhere possible. The patent protects the market not where the item is produced. If I remember the Bob Long products were originally sold through national who said to SP get bent- If we have to pay royalty we won't sell your guns.





What? They lost because WDP had a claim to the patent as equally valid as SPs, or so a court decided. It had NOTHING to do with WDP being based in Europe. A US patent offers protection theoretically world wide, and most definetly in the US. If nothing else SP could stop the import of PE markers. I bet, if one looks closely, they are going to find an agreement between SP and PE.

[Spider-TW]

What? They lost because WDP had a claim to the patent as equally valid as SPs, or so a court decided. It had NOTHING to do with WDP being based in Europe. A US patent offers protection theoretically world wide, and most definetly in the US. If nothing else SP could stop the import of PE markers. I bet, if one looks closely, they are going to find an agreement between SP and PE.

If WDP was successful in their defense, would it be possible to arrange an agreement with them for an electro over SP? Or is that where the X-mag came in?

[robertsr1811]

Taurus does make a lot of copies...

That's not really the same thing. Tarus licenses the designs and in some cases purchases the tooling from the parent company.

[Bartman]

Its not only SP, WDP, and Dye all have something on each other, so really for SP to go after some one now they better make sure that one of the other big 3 arn't already protecting these smaller companies.

My 2 cents

Bartman

[Spider-TW]

That's not really the same thing. Tarus licenses the designs and in some cases purchases the tooling from the parent company.
I thought I remembered seeing a patent reference on their Beretta clone, but its been too long.


Is it too ugly to ask where Dye fits in? With all of the marketing and with the proto and matrix markers, I have the impression that Dye is kind of a sales front, kind of like NPS?

[y0da900]

Is it too ugly to ask where Dye fits in? With all of the marketing and with the proto and matrix markers, I have the impression that Dye is kind of a sales front, kind of like NPS?


DYE holds the Omega patent, which allows for the isolation of a dump chamber via means of the bolt acting as an additional spool valve. Tail o-ring on a Matrix. The issue with the patent is when SP made the HE bolt for shockers, which also used an o-ring on the bolt to isolate the dump chamber from the air supply (essentially a Matrix with a different layout). Same with the bolt tail mod on an Ion, which is cutting an additional o-ring groove into the bolt tail face side of the original, this cuts off the air, and is crucial in a mechanical Ion conversion. Now DYE gets to make electros, and SP gets to keep making products that use the bolt to isolate the dump chamber from the supply air via a spooling method.

[Pneumagger]

I thought I remembered seeing a patent reference on their Beretta clone, but its been too long.

Taurus even went so far as to procure the machines Beretta used to manufacture the 92 models. I don't mean they use the same kind of machines Beretta was using... they are using the actual individual machines Beretta used.

[Spider-TW]

Taurus even went so far as to procure the machines Beretta used to manufacture the 92 models. I don't mean they use the same kind of machines Beretta was using... they are using the actual individual machines Beretta used.
Well, that makes that clone a lot less impressive, engineering-wise...


DYE holds the Omega patent, which allows for the isolation of a dump chamber via means of the bolt acting as an additional spool valve. Tail o-ring on a Matrix. The issue with the patent is when SP made the HE bolt for shockers, which also used an o-ring on the bolt to isolate the dump chamber from the air supply (essentially a Matrix with a different layout). Same with the bolt tail mod on an Ion, which is cutting an additional o-ring groove into the bolt tail face side of the original, this cuts off the air, and is crucial in a mechanical Ion conversion. Now DYE gets to make electros, and SP gets to keep making products that use the bolt to isolate the dump chamber from the supply air via a spooling method.
Is that where the BLAST Marq deviates with its 'in-line poppet' design?

[CKY_Alliance]

Not quite. The patent restricts U.S. companies from manufacturing/building/making guns which fire using an electronic switch. PE is not a U.S. company nor is it making it's guns in the U.S. It would be super expensive, time consuming, and a waste for SP to sue PE. They tried it with WDP, another British company. Other factors caused them to lose the case, but they saw how expensive and foolish an international suit was.


I don't know if it matters but PE gun's technically don't use swtiches, they use an optical eye.Now they may still consider this an electronic swtich, depends on how literal it is. I don't know, but that could be one reason PE is safe.

[warbeak2099]

Lohman, I said that they won for different reasons. But suing a European company is much more complicated and time consuming. I'm not sure if SP would want to do it again.

As for the optical switches, they are still switches.

[nmib]

Personally I dont support BL products. They are local, his son Zack is a ok guy. Zack will at least say hello to you when you enter the store but Bob and Jon are not pleasant people to deal with. Thats about nice as I can put before tripping the swear filter.

But that does raise interesting questions, maybe I can catch Zack on a good day and ask him. There is a kill BBQ place next door to there shop, so Im over in that area once a month.

[Spider-TW]

Thanks for all the info guys. It fills in the gap between the demise of the old companies and the current selection of electros. I kept reading about all the legal 'activities' and seeing lots of electros that are all very similar, like the Viking, Cyborg, and Intimidator.

You look at some of the other designs and only value you can see in them is that they are different enough to (try to) avoid a patent infringement.


Thanks!

[custar]

Just an FYI, SP sued WDP in the U.S. The decision is very interesting.

custar

[y0da900]

Is that where the BLAST Marq deviates with its 'in-line poppet' design?

No, the Marq is not a spool valve or a dump chamber.

[Spider-TW]

No, the Marq is not a spool valve or a dump chamber.
Right, it's a poppet...

but you're saying that not only is the main valve different, but it does not use a dump chamber. (?)

I guess I'm really just wondering if changing that main valve from one type to the other is enough to avoid an infringement. But that may have to do with how the patent was written.

The mini looks like a spool set up from the manual, and looking at the Marq manual they look pretty similar except for the main valve. This whole thing is a good study of how to do the same thing different ways.

[LK-13]

Not quite. The patent restricts U.S. companies from manufacturing/building/making guns which fire using an electronic switch. PE is not a U.S. company nor is it making it's guns in the U.S. It would be super expensive, time consuming, and a waste for SP to sue PE. They tried it with WDP, another British company. Other factors caused them to lose the case, but they saw how expensive and foolish an international suit was.

so would you be able to produce the guns which fire using an electronic switch in Canada
and side step the patent issues that way?

[custar]

They couldn't be sold in the U.S.

custar