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SummaryJudgement
10-12-2007, 01:02 AM
I was just looking at the news here in Venice. Apparently in Anaheim, police were chasing a stolen vehicle and managed to corner it in a parking lot. When the suspect wouldn't get out of the car the police shot what looked like pepperballs into the cab of the truck.

I couldn't tell what kind of marker it was, but you could definately see the hopper in the footage they showed.

Just thought I'd mention it.

:cheers:
OneUp
10-12-2007, 01:25 AM
i read a story earlier where an officer fired pepperballs into a crowd and it killed a woman when she was shot in the eye. :wow:
Swampy
10-12-2007, 01:25 AM
Its probably a Tippmann Pro Carbine. Tippmann pretty much stopped selling them to the public and introduced them to law enforcement for that reason.
Russ
10-12-2007, 01:26 AM
Yep, it's a neat way to stop the bad guys...
wetwrks
10-12-2007, 01:57 AM
Tippmann has been persuing the police/crowd controll market pretty heavily.

I had an oppertunity to pick up a crowd controll paintgun made by some other company I have never heard of. It had paintballs and pepperballs that were all fin stabilized. Took a rotary drum magazine.

Found it:

http://www.fnhusa.com/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF010&gid=FNG003

kinda neat but too expensive and I had questions about the usefullness.
WingMan13
10-12-2007, 02:06 AM
Cool, never seen that b4... :ninja:
wetwrks
10-12-2007, 02:11 AM
Here is the ammo

http://www.fnhusa.com/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF021&gid=FNG003
Rudz
10-12-2007, 02:20 AM
Tippmann has been persuing the police/crowd controll market pretty heavily.

I had an oppertunity to pick up a crowd controll paintgun made by some other company I have never heard of. It had paintballs and pepperballs that were all fin stabilized. Took a rotary drum magazine.

Found it:

http://www.fnhusa.com/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF010&gid=FNG003

kinda neat but too expensive and I had questions about the usefullness.


tom kaye designed the valve, the fn303 has been discussed over and over here on ao, it was used when the red sox won the world series and a riot ensued, the poorly trained officers killed a woman, it was removed from use in that department, the first and last time they used the fn303, now its mostly used for military
Russ
10-12-2007, 02:33 AM
tom kaye designed the valve, the fn303 has been discussed over and over here on ao, it was used when the red sox won the world series and a riot ensued, the poorly trained officers killed a woman, it was removed from use in that department, the first and last time they used the fn303, now its mostly used for military


That gun used in Boston fired bean-bags, NOT paintballs IIRC
Rudz
10-12-2007, 02:42 AM
it was still the fn303, care to do a seach?
chairman_mao
10-12-2007, 06:56 AM
No the Boston PD used the FN 303. The round is shaped more like a artillery round and was intended to be shot at the ground but was instead used directly on a person (intentionally or not I do not know).
Army
10-12-2007, 07:12 AM
Perfect Circle is owned by AGD. These are the pepper balls (and many others) you see in use around the world.

The FN303 uses a specialty "ball" that is fin stabilised for long distance hits. The payload is a measure of Bismuth, a very heavy metal, in a powdered form. The paint is for marking the impact. A back door of AGD has fist sized dents from the impact potential of these projectiles. As, or more, effective as a bean-bag, and can mark it's target too. AGD designed the valving system for the gun.

The sad Boston affair was a result of piss-poor training.
Army
10-12-2007, 07:14 AM
No the Boston PD used the FN 303. The round is shaped more like a artillery round and was intended to be shot at the ground but was instead used directly on a person (intentionally or not I do not know).
They are direct impact projectiles, not a bounding type. They are supposed to hurt.
Warwitch
10-12-2007, 10:54 AM
They are direct impact projectiles, not a bounding type. They are supposed to hurt.


Eh, I saw police using a billy club to subdue a criminal once. Much more effective IMO. All you have to do is brandish an ASP baton and people straighten up quick!
TheTramp
10-12-2007, 11:16 AM
Yeah but it’s harder to get away with firing indiscriminately into a crowd with a baton…
Warwitch
10-12-2007, 11:59 AM
Yeah but it’s harder to get away with firing indiscriminately into a crowd with a baton…


touche
Muzikman
10-12-2007, 03:24 PM
All forms of less-leathal have their place. If I had to control a crowd I would not want to do it with billy clubs.

The issue in Boston was do to the fact that the guy firing it was not just pooly trained, he had not been trained at all. I also think the way they sell and market the FN303 is wrong. They market as a Less-Than-Lethal weapon (stated that way right on the box). It give people the sense that they can fire randomly into a crowd and since it's less than leathal, no one will get hurt. The fact is, you fire any form of less than leathal round into a crowd and you can have a fatality.

These have been posted before, but I'll post them again.

http://pittsburgh-music.com/paintballmediacom/albums/MuzikmanMarkers/FN303.sized.jpg

http://pittsburgh-music.com/paintballmediacom/albums/MuzikmanMarkers/FN303_BodyOff2.sized.jpg

http://pittsburgh-music.com/paintballmediacom/albums/MuzikmanMarkers/FN303_Overview2.sized.jpg

http://pittsburgh-music.com/paintballmediacom/albums/MuzikmanMarkers/FN303_Valve2.sized.jpg

http://pittsburgh-music.com/paintballmediacom/albums/MuzikmanMarkers/FN303_Valve_Trigger2.sized.jpg

http://pittsburgh-music.com/paintballmediacom/albums/MuzikmanMarkers/Projectile2.sized.jpg
Piranti
10-12-2007, 03:40 PM
Now where have I seen valves nearly identical in operation.... :ninja:
Cow hunter
10-12-2007, 06:10 PM
there was a thread very similiar to this one a while ago. im pretty sure the FN303 is made by AGD
Rudz
10-12-2007, 06:20 PM
there was a thread very similiar to this one a while ago. im pretty sure the FN303 is made by AGD


THE VALVE IS MADE BY AGD, NOT THE GUN, JUST THE VALVE
questionful
10-12-2007, 06:26 PM
there was a thread very similiar to this one a while ago. im pretty sure the FN303 is made by AGD
Everyone is using the term "designed the valve", so I'm pretty sure they don't make it.
Beemer
10-12-2007, 09:11 PM
All forms of less-leathal have their place. If I had to control a crowd I would not want to do it with billy clubs.

The issue in Boston was do to the fact that the guy firing it was not just pooly trained, he had not been trained at all. I also think the way they sell and market the FN303 is wrong. They market as a Less-Than-Lethal weapon (stated that way right on the box). It give people the sense that they can fire randomly into a crowd and since it's less than leathal, no one will get hurt. The fact is, you fire any form of less than leathal round into a crowd and you can have a fatality.

These have been posted before, but I'll post them again.

Isnt a paintball gun considered less then leathal. I mean geez 300FPS[204MPH] with a three point five gram projectile even with some safety protection [eyes] can do some damage. :eek:

Thanks for posting those again. Its a great pictorial. :cheers:
MANN
10-12-2007, 09:51 PM
That sear looks familiar also.

At a second glance that body could very easily pass for a xmag prototype (upside down of course).

Now off to find one of these.
mr doo doo
10-12-2007, 09:58 PM
wow, that is like a mag, exactly! pretty cool... would like to see those near my neighborhood.
SCpoloRicker
10-12-2007, 10:22 PM
rudz, you're doing it wrong. Jesus.
Muzikman
10-15-2007, 09:23 AM
That sear looks familiar also.

At a second glance that body could very easily pass for a xmag prototype (upside down of course).

Now off to find one of these.


Good luck. I only know of two that are in private hands. Mine and Simon (Manike). If he still has his, maybe he would sell it.
rkjunior303
10-15-2007, 09:27 AM
They are direct impact projectiles, not a bounding type. They are supposed to hurt.

exactly.. you're just not supposed to shoot someone in the FACE with one.
Muzikman
10-15-2007, 09:33 AM
Isnt a paintball gun considered less then leathal. I mean geez 300FPS[204MPH] with a three point five gram projectile even with some safety protection [eyes] can do some damage. :eek:

Thanks for posting those again. Its a great pictorial. :cheers:

I would fully agree. You can kill someone pretty easily if you fire even just a normal paintball gun and normal balls into a crowd of unprotected people.
Muzikman
10-15-2007, 09:37 AM
tom kaye designed the valve, the fn303 has been discussed over and over here on ao, it was used when the red sox won the world series and a riot ensued, the poorly trained officers killed a woman, it was removed from use in that department, the first and last time they used the fn303, now its mostly used for military

BTW, AGD didn't just design the valve. They desgiend the entire workings of the gun. From the valve, to the trigger to the air source, to the loader to the rounds used.
AGD
10-15-2007, 11:31 AM
Muz is correct. We designed the entire system. In the final form the only thing we were not involved with was the plastic clam shell and the aluminum chassis that holds the valve.

We manufactured all the valve components for the actual weapons and tested the working valves before they left our factory. FN had all the plastic stuff made and did the final assembly there.

Our other company PCP continues to make ALL the FN and pepper filled rounds. We did however sell off the round ball portion of PCP to Security With Advanced Technology (SWAT) a publicly traded company. We STILL make the round balls for SWAT they basically own the patents etc.

Just to clear up the continuing confusion..

AGD
Muzikman
10-15-2007, 12:18 PM
Not that it's mine or anyone elses outside of Perfect Circle's business, but why sell the patents? I assume a pretty penny was handed over in exchange, but seeing as no one knows what the future might bring, giving up a patent on that type of item seems like it might shoot you in the foot in the long run.
Muzikman
10-15-2007, 12:22 PM
I also think the way they sell and market the FN303 is wrong. They market as a Less-Than-Lethal weapon (stated that way right on the box). It give people the sense that they can fire randomly into a crowd and since it's less than leathal, no one will get hurt. The fact is, you fire any form of less than leathal round into a crowd and you can have a fatality.


After taking a look at the FN page posted above, it looks like they have changed their wording to "Less Lethal". I think this is a very smart move on their part and I wonder if it came from the Boston incident.