rental advice

[bryceeden]

I need some advice. I need to find some good rental markers, I have used Tippmann 98s and for several reasons they just didn't work out at all. I've been using the Spyder extra and it would work great but they keep breaking a ton of paint due to the gravity fed hoppers and people shooting too fast with the double trigger or something. I need something else. I'm considering getting automag proclassics with single triggers but I'd rather not spend that much if I don't have to. So the question I have is what are some good rentals you've seen that are still available? What I'm looking for is something easy to clean, low maintenace, reasonably idiot proof, not prone to chopping paint, and just a good all around rental. What are some suggestions? I don't really want to go electro but I guess it could be an option. What do you all think?

[kruger]

A5? We use 98's at my field and really dont have a problem with chopps at all. Gravity feeds are ok for these guns. Your really cant walk a tippmann 98 so the feed rate is just fine. What I have found is that if you go "too cheap" on the field paint, then you do run into lots of problems with breaks. The really cheap paint is rarely round, mostly football shaped or dimpled. For field grade paint we use Hotbox, and for those that really care what they shoot, we use Xball Bronze, and have for over a year now. Try using a different grade of paint before you sink a bunch of money in more markers.

And for field rentals, I would NOT get Electros. Think of the problems that you would have trying to keep that many batteries on hand :wow:

[going_home]

I need some advice. I need to find some good rental markers, I have used Tippmann 98s and for several reasons they just didn't work out at all. I've been using the Spyder extra and it would work great but they keep breaking a ton of paint due to the gravity fed hoppers and people shooting too fast with the double trigger or something. I need something else. I'm considering getting automag proclassics with single triggers but I'd rather not spend that much if I don't have to. So the question I have is what are some good rentals you've seen that are still available? What I'm looking for is something easy to clean, low maintenace, reasonably idiot proof, not prone to chopping paint, and just a good all around rental. What are some suggestions? I don't really want to go electro but I guess it could be an option. What do you all think?


If you are going to buy in quantity, call AGD.
I'd bet they would give some pretty good discounts for larger quantities.
See what their rock bottom is before you give up on them.

Other than that start buying up older used ICD markers.
Alley Cats, Thunder Cats, etc. They are real good.

;)

[bryceeden]

A5? We use 98's at my field and really dont have a problem with chopps at all. Gravity feeds are ok for these guns. Your really cant walk a tippmann 98 so the feed rate is just fine. What I have found is that if you go "too cheap" on the field paint, then you do run into lots of problems with breaks. The really cheap paint is rarely round, mostly football shaped or dimpled. For field grade paint we use Hotbox, and for those that really care what they shoot, we use Xball Bronze, and have for over a year now. Try using a different grade of paint before you sink a bunch of money in more markers.


Paint is not the problem, I've tried Cryptic, Stinger, Proball platinum, Chronic, All Star, Combat 68, and Evil and had the same problem.

I plan to call AGD in the morning but I really don't want to spend more than $150 if possible and deffinatly not more than $200. I'm also not real keen on buying used markers for it.

I guess I could use Phantoms then rate of fire won't be an issue :D

[kruger]

Is the problem in the barrels or in the breech where the breaks are happening?

[bryceeden]

Is the problem in the barrels or in the breech where the breaks are happening?


Seems to be the breech.

[Freebird]

a field near mine just picked up a bunch of BT markers, basiclly tippmann knock offs. Seem to work well. We have ion rentals, and 98C rentals

[bryceeden]

a field near mine just picked up a bunch of BT markers, basiclly tippmann knock offs. Seem to work well. We have ion rentals, and 98C rentals


I've used the BTs but they seemed to break down rather fast. I just dont trust Ions given the number I've sold and how many of them still work.

[kruger]

OK, then instead of buying a bunch of new markers, then why not get a bunch of agitated hoppers for the rentals? Much cheaper than new markers. Also, there is a cyclone attachment that you can get for the 98. If you have a bunch of them, then tippmann may give you a break on the price if you buy in quantity. You would still have the battery issue to deal with, but it is a business expense.

Also, I am curious about this. Is the problem with just anybody that comes up and plays, or is it regulars that come all the time, but use the rental equipment and dont have their own stuff?

[bryceeden]

OK, then instead of buying a bunch of new markers, then why not get a bunch of agitated hoppers for the rentals? Much cheaper than new markers. Also, there is a cyclone attachment that you can get for the 98. If you have a bunch of them, then tippmann may give you a break on the price if you buy in quantity. You would still have the battery issue to deal with, but it is a business expense.

Also, I am curious about this. Is the problem with just anybody that comes up and plays, or is it regulars that come all the time, but use the rental equipment and dont have their own stuff?


The problem seems to be pretty univesal, which is funny because when I go out and use my rentals I never have any problems and never break a ball using the gravity fed hoppers.

Tippmann just haven't worked for me well in the past and they are a pain to clean when the time comes. If I could Cyclone my Spyders I'd be set. I'm also considering getting electronic hoppers but I'm not 100% sure that that would fix the problem so I'm hesitant to make the investment. These Extras are fairly new and I've never had chopping problems with any other markers I've used as rentals so I'm not sure its the hoppers.

I briefly thought of using the Prostock Autocockers that are being liquidadted for very cheap but I see alot of potential for problems there. The Pro Classic seems like a great option but they're just so pricey, if I could get them cheaper then there would be no contest but I do have to look at the price part of things as well. But if I used the Pro Classics then maybe my mag sales would reapear some too which I would love to see.

[Freebird]

I've used the BTs but they seemed to break down rather fast. I just dont trust Ions given the number I've sold and how many of them still work.
yea i hate the ions too, im fixing them more than im renting them out, and the lack of a simple saftey throws people off. go with the trusty pro carbine if you can still find a bunch, tippman stopped production, but in my opinion they were more reliable and easier to clean than the 98 or A5

[kruger]

OK. One more question for you. I have, in the past had problems with breaks in the breech. And, it usually is with the newer players. What they would do is pick up balls that had been shot at them and put them in the hoppers. Then when these balls would reach the gun, they would break. Dirt and grass was the culprit with this problem. You notice any debris in the breech when they break? Little tufts of grass or dirt?

[kruger]

A thing to keep in mind is that tippmann quit making parts for the pro carbine. We had/have a bunch of them and slowly phased them out because the parts were getting harder to find. Now all we have is the 98's, about 40 of them.

[bryceeden]

I thought it was a used paint off the ground problem at first, but it doesn't seem to be the case. I do get alot back with crud in them but just as many without. To test the theory I watched people one day all day with the rentals and they wern't using paint off the ground and it was still breaking. I think some of it may have to do with players holding the markers crooked which gravity fed hoppers don't like but even when I tell them not to do so the markers still comeback full of goo more than half the time.


I'm not willing to get used or discontinued markers strictly due to the inevitable problems that arize with that. The 98s would have worked under better more controlled circomstances but those aren't available to me. The problem I have is I don't own a field(hopefully I'll have that fixed buy next summer), people rent my markers and take them out in the woods or desert to play. I kept finding my 98s in pawn shops, police found them in the back seats of cars they pulled over for various offences, and a slew of other problems. I do get credit card info from people but I can't run it and charge them for some time after the rentals were due back or I run into legal issues. The problem is truthfully 98s are so popular that people keep them and its hard to prove that the ones in pawn shops and such are mine due to the popularity of the marker. 98s are very hard to take apart and clean and sooner or later you get the one stripped screw that really causes headaches. Plus it seems like when one 98 finnally decides its done and dies all its friends decide the same thing, they never die off one at a time.

[Freebird]

A thing to keep in mind is that tippmann quit making parts for the pro carbine. We had/have a bunch of them and slowly phased them out because the parts were getting harder to find. Now all we have is the 98's, about 40 of them.
ahhh forgot about that aspect. still i dont know why tippmann stopped that production line, it was a QUALITY marker that could take the beating.

[kruger]

I thought it was a used paint off the ground problem at first, but it doesn't seem to be the case. I do get alot back with crud in them but just as many without. To test the theory I watched people one day all day with the rentals and they wern't using paint off the ground and it was still breaking. I think some of it may have to do with players holding the markers crooked which gravity fed hoppers don't like but even when I tell them not to do so the markers still comeback full of goo more than half the time.


If the problem is with the players, then, there is nothing that you can do short of buying force feed hoppers. The only thing that I can suggest is to make sure that the players are aware of the limitations of the gravity feed hoppers. Sell squeegee's, the cheap ones at a mark-up. If your customers are having a good time playing, then push the fact that these are only rental guns and that the guns that you could get for them would not have the problems that the rentals do. It could be a marketing strategy for you :cool:

[bryceeden]

If the problem is with the players, then, there is nothing that you can do short of buying force feed hoppers. The only thing that I can suggest is to make sure that the players are aware of the limitations of the gravity feed hoppers. Sell squeegee's, the cheap ones at a mark-up. If your customers are having a good time playing, then push the fact that these are only rental guns and that the guns that you could get for them would not have the problems that the rentals do. It could be a marketing strategy for you :cool:


The problem is that my 98s broke just as much or maybe more paint but they can shoot thru it, the Spyders cann't and just jam up requireing removal of the bolt and squeegeeing, then it'll work fine until its dirty again, but I don't really like the idea of people taking my markers apart on the field. Also if my renters don't have a good time they never become buyers and players so alot rests on my rentals working and letting people with no experiance have a good time.

[kruger]

Ahh, I see now. You really dont have any idea what they are doing with the markers.

One thing that you can do is buy a dremmel, and engrave "property of..........., not to be sold" on the bodies. That way, you can positively identify your guns. Also, throw a serial number on them and keep a record. Doing it the way that you are doing it, I would even engrave them, take a picture of the marker after its engraved, and keep it on a disk. That way, when you do find one, you have the pics to back up your claim on it.

Also, it seems that your liability would be sky high on this type of business, but I guess that it works for you. Good luck.

[kruger]

Also, I see that you are in Utah. I dont know anything about the weather there. Different formulas work differently in different climates. Is it very humid there? Is it possible that the humidity is causing the balls to swell up? Or is it hot and dry? Temperature may be the culprit on this.


Also, it seems to me that you are going to throw a lot of money at a problem that you are not even sure of just yet. Were I you, I would kinda wait until I could control the environment that they are used in. You could go and buy up a bunch of DM7's and still get the same complaints, and still not know what the problem is. It may be that you need to provide a place for them to play so that you can get a handle on what they are actually doing with them. I know that it is easier to say than to do, but, I think that you would be saving money in the long run if you were able to get a traditional field set up.

[bryceeden]

Also, it seems that your liability would be sky high on this type of business, but I guess that it works for you. Good luck.


You have no idea. My insurance premiums are a nightmare, but yes, it is worth it. With some luck I'll have a field by next year and alot of my problems will be solved but for now I need a solution. Truthfully if I could control them better I'd use Spyder VS1s as my rentals, but as it sits now E-markers are a poor choice as it greatly increases the possibility of serious issues due to misuse.

[bryceeden]

Also, I see that you are in Utah. I dont know anything about the weather there. Different formulas work differently in different climates. Is it very humid there? Is it possible that the humidity is causing the balls to swell up? Or is it hot and dry? Temperature may be the culprit on this.


It could be a factor as its just starting to get cool, but I haven't seen the problem with any of our usual players and all the paint I shoot still works great(granted there is a marker and care difference there). Humidity is all but nonexistant in my part of the state so thats really not an issue, but in the next few months it'll get very cold and that always causes problems. Now however its usually in the 50s or 60s most days(which is alot down from the 100+ average two months ago.) I don't know if I can blame the weather this time.


Also I have set up fields and controled environments in local parks and campuses and I have the same problem.

In nearly 7 years of doing it this way I've never had this problem which kind of points to the markers as the culprit.

[d4m4don3]

Aren't there rental mags? I hear they're pretty much child proof.

[bryceeden]

Aren't there rental mags? I hear they're pretty much child proof.


There use to be, I wish there still were.

[Freebird]

try glass beading the chamber of a 98, this will garuntee the removal of all old paint and gunk, use that as a test marker and see how that works for you. I dont know how old your rental markers are but i know on our old 98's the paint they use to paint the bodies gunks up real well in the chamber.

[Piranti]

Honestly the only option, for you from the 'problems' to resolve would be solved by using Class Mags with a power feed bodies on your own field. Single trigger ones at that. Reliability, durability, ease of cleaning, all of it says mag. Simple effective yet initial investment high, but over the life of the marker, which is going to cost you more? Already you spent what on a set of the Tippmans, then what on the Spyders? Now how much have you lost from those 'investments, in repair, and replacement? Since you know the Mags how much do you think you would have spent in the same time period if you had just bought mags to begin with?


Now compare the numbers. Which would have been the better investment? Also I seriously recommend using something other than mags for off personal field rentals. Just due to the 'loss/stolen' factor.

[Chronobreak]

few things

get something with a vertical feed or molded integrated feed or youl be replacing alot of feednecks

Mags are a steep investment but they are just that an investment, they hold their value fairly well and will last a lifetime or five.

We have some rental mags that have been in use since around 93 i believe and are running as good as ever with only a rebuild kit needed every year or so. They are by far the easiest to clean and maintain.

-rental players will turn the barrels so get ule's or screw in the nubbins tight so they cant turn them

--also the powerfeeds are a weeknes for the forementioned feedneck that will break and end up costing extra $.

If you could get a ule classic mag in my mind that is/would be the perfect rental marker and holy grail for a field owner. but they are steeply priced

spyderclones

we recently bought a lot of INFERNOS, made by sterling i believe and an very happy with them. they have no bolt o-rings and are machines aluminum. only o-rings are on the valve and the hammer.

they are vert feed and seem to be holding up well, they are also single triggered so the rof is kept somewhat low.

oh, and if you get BT's for some reason make sure you LOC TITE all the screws on every gun or they will shake apart on you :cuss:

[punkncat]

Keep in mind that even if you go with classics you will need to consider HPA.

[bryceeden]

Keep in mind that even if you go with classics you will need to consider HPA.


Yes, but HPA is a better choice anyway due to the fact I have a compressor.

[Toll]

Our field has 60 odd m98's and they've worked out well and realistically seem to be the best option.


Cockers: hahahaha...seriously, no.

Mags: No one knows what they are or how to use them. You will be replacing feednecks/plugs left right and center unless you get ule bodies which causes even more issues.

Spyders: This would be my second choice. They're relatively cheap and the problems they have can generally be taken care of rather easily. You have alot of paint issues (or atleast breech issues) so these are ruled out too, mostly.

A5's : another solid option. Less chops due to the cyclone and they are getting to be cheap now adays. Used anyway, bnib they're still expensive.

Ions : "meh". If you can keep the batteries in good order (a bunch of rechargables) and stick with gravity fed hoppers you could work out fine with them as the eyes take care of everything else break wise. In addition they are coated in plastic so it minimalizes the scrapes and bruises that rental markers tend to go through.



To be honest, the problem is generally more with the people and less with the guns. People start trying to fire too fast, they pick up swelled paint, they pack their hoppers crammed full or something equally weird.

[bryceeden]

Cockers: hahahaha...seriously, no.



Oh, come on cockers could be good rentals its not like renters would screw the timing up everytime, shortstroke left and right, and put bolts in upside down or anything.


I could always get Epics, they're supost to be low maintenace and not break paint.

[StygShore]

BT-4 Rentals ( they have green parts and say rental rigth on them )

They can be had for way sub 100.00 and seem to be as durable as the 98's and alittle easier to work on


Styg


I know pricing from PMI is REALLY nice if you buy them in quantity

[bryceeden]

I just got off the phone with AGD and with alittle luck I'll be able to just get mags. I still maintain I could still get Phantoms they'd work well, but I'm afraid my renters would hate it.

[93civiccpe]

I remember not too long ago national decided to clear their inventory of Emags and sold them for a low enough price to make most of us cry.. one of the fields in New York called immediately when he saw the flyer and bought just about all of them to use as rentals... I need to visit that field.

Anyways, I've seen my share of these issues while working as a tech at one of the local fields. The owner was pretty stubborn insisting that we make the 98 customs and spyder knock-offs work, but it was just a mess. Finally I brought in a mag with the lvl-10 set up properly and demonstrated why it wouldn't break paint and be worth the investment. The owner liked the idea, but was too cheap... they are still cleaning those 98's daily.. what a shame.

Anyways, one of the fields I used to visit had classic mags as rentals and it was a blast to play there, especially when they upgraded to lvl-10 bolts. Made for a very fun day of play.

[bryceeden]

I remember not too long ago national decided to clear their inventory of Emags and sold them for a low enough price to make most of us cry.. one of the fields in New York called immediately when he saw the flyer and bought just about all of them to use as rentals... I need to visit that field.

Anyways, I've seen my share of these issues while working as a tech at one of the local fields. The owner was pretty stubborn insisting that we make the 98 customs and spyder knock-offs work, but it was just a mess. Finally I brought in a mag with the lvl-10 set up properly and demonstrated why it wouldn't break paint and be worth the investment. The owner liked the idea, but was too cheap... they are still cleaning those 98's daily.. what a shame.

Anyways, one of the fields I used to visit had classic mags as rentals and it was a blast to play there, especially when they upgraded to lvl-10 bolts. Made for a very fun day of play.


When Paintball Inc called it quits years ago I had the opportunity to get a bunch of classic and minimags for below $100 a piece. Its kind of one of those things where I look back and really wish I'd picked a bunch of them up but it was durring a hard time for my store and I decided to pass on them.

[Shane-O-Mac]

Ok, dont flame me, but you have checked the obvious things right? Ball detent, oiled after/before rental, condition of barrel lips, etc. The beauty of the 98c, is that you can remove the feedneck, and barrel, dunk the front half into a 5 gallon bucket of cleaner and fire away to clean it out. Use compressed air to blow out the excess, and fire your oil thru the gun. No need to take them apart. The field I worked at HAD rental mags, but they were just as problematic as any other rental. They now have Piranha's and they work well, easy to clean/repair, and is an easy transition to purchasing their own marker. You have a few problems with any rental though. When using a rental and Co2, most people walk around with the gun pointed down, dumping liquid Co2 into the valve, so hot shots equal chop shots. How about switching to HPA? then you could lock the velocity adjuster in place, so they dont jack up the velocity to cheat or match their buddys cheating marker. Make it mandatory that they buy YOUR paint, that you know will work well in the rental. If you stick with Co2, install anti-siphon tubes, thats alot of labor but not expense. Or if I were in your shoes, I would buy A5's, easier to maintain, and a hopper that will help the gun work well. Or add some Cyclones to your current 98c's. You could rent out the A5'5 and Cyclone feed guns and a higher rate, that way you can tell them, that there is less chance of chopping/breaking paint. For the cost of a mag, I think you could buy 2-3 cyclone feeds for your current guns. I wouldnt go with electro hoppers, as batteries will kill you, and will likely get thrashed/stolen quickly. And they will prolly still forget to turn them on.

OR just make the trigger springs very hard, that way the ROF is even less..............

Shane-O

[Shane-O-Mac]

I just got off the phone with AGD and with alittle luck I'll be able to just get mags. I still maintain I could still get Phantoms they'd work well, but I'm afraid my renters would hate it.

Truth be told, they would prolly chop more, everyone has a tendancy to pump too quick and chop a ball. Heck I still do it from time to time with a phantom/nelson base gun.........lol.

[Jackel411]

FYI The field I work for got rid of our rental mag fleet for a strange reason...

People would call and ask " What is your rental gun " we would say auto mag and they would go "whats that?" We explained and then the normal answer was " Arnt M98's better? "


From a rental stand point.. people know the M98's they trust them. when players see this strange and heavy gun they get turned off and wont come back...


But...... As for rental spyders breaking paint.... get the Anti chop bolts that kingman sells

[Dend78]

set em up with blow guns :D

[Lomarandil]

Buy single trigger frames for your spyders?
Lo

[bryceeden]

Buy single trigger frames for your spyders?
Lo

I thought about that, but no place really sells them anymore. If I get mags they'll be single trigger.

[Chronobreak]

shane, weird...those mags seem to be working fine now :p

we liked em so much we bought the ones gateway had

jackel, i gotta agree with you when we mention automags people either think are they automatic:tard: or dont know what they are kinda walk away confused.

we had m98's and they simply didnt holdup well though for some reason they are what renteres seem to expect. To be honest the most durable rental that seems to be the please all setup is a set of pro carbines weve had for what seems like forever.

but tippmann is phasing them out so thats out of the question i suppose.

[Shane-O-Mac]

shane, weird...those mags seem to be working fine now :p

we liked em so much we bought the ones gateway had

jackel, i gotta agree with you when we mention automags people either think are they automatic:tard: or dont know what they are kinda walk away confused.

we had m98's and they simply didnt holdup well though for some reason they are what renteres seem to expect. To be honest the most durable rental that seems to be the please all setup is a set of pro carbines weve had for what seems like forever.

but tippmann is phasing them out so thats out of the question i suppose.

Of course one of the problems was they were being run on Co2. But we had the normal problems. People turning the barrel and wondering why it didnt shoot balls out...etc. And they were harder to clean because not all of them had qd's on the hoses. AND try and clean 70+ rental mags all at once.....................

but you are correct, people are familiar with the 98c, and equate that to better guns. IMHO, for the cost of new rental mags and other options, the mags are not as desirable as others. But from a Mag guys standpoint, I like them, as long as you get power feed ones....lol.

[Coralis]

Mokal still makes a stacked tube semi .... I know the local field here used titans for years that really became trouble free when they switch all their rentals to compressed air

[SR_matt]

the field i worked at had a few hundred tippmans between the field and the main store where you could rent and take with. the tippmans were great rentals. i do not remember ever really fixing them. (we did accumulate a few broken ones in the almost 2 years i worked there but by that point they were so old and busted they were just parts fodder

the way we worked with them was: flip down hopper hose out, hose off, spray out hopper, dry fire to clear the water. repeat.

we didnt not keep adjusting the fps on them, most didnt shoot more than 250 (they also really couldnt just from being so old). the problem is probably the paints they are using. i assume they get what ever paint they want from wally world and go play.

even though ya one reason for field paint only is so the field makes money, bad paint in the rentals is a big issue too, ive had to clean enough rentals out that i can attest to that.

paint is the only thing i can think is bad

-matt

[bryceeden]

the problem is probably the paints they are using. i assume they get what ever paint they want from wally world and go play.

even though ya one reason for field paint only is so the field makes money, bad paint in the rentals is a big issue too, ive had to clean enough rentals out that i can attest to that.

paint is the only thing i can think is bad

-matt

I run FPO, paint is not the problem. It could be the detents that I'll have to check.

[matteusz]

One of the best rental solutions I have seen is to buy new PMI piranha or something every season and then sell them off when you get the new order in the next year. You can get a good 30-40$ out of a used set up on ebay and this eliminates the long term wear and tear problems.

M 98s or spyders or whatever at the low end do not have a solid anti chop solution. So as I see it you either invest heavily (ie in mags) for a long term wear and anti chop solution that you know you can count on. OR go cheap and just expect to have to clean out paint and sell off before they die. Piranha rentals come with a power feed and single trigger (and are clearly rentals but I would engrave them anyway). This slows your rate of fire and makes them easy to use with a gravity feed hopper. Sure they can't shoot through breaks but for the hassle you issue everyone a squeegee with the gun and teach them how not to need it AND how to use it.

I think the rent and resell route is the most realistic given your current set up. When you have a field I would go the ULE level 10 mag way. Keep a few 98's on hand so when you get those "what do you rent calls" you have something familiar on hand. Then when they get there you show them the light.

[finnmanpa]

Tippmann '98s with the new ACT bolts is what our field uses. We now have significantly less ball breaks in the breach from short stroking or bad balls.

When we first get the guns new we locktite the asa bolts as they tend to work loose, and we sandblast our guns silver. That helps them stand out in a crowd as well as avoid those nasty scratches that get on the black finish. Our Tippmanns last 2-3 years on average. When they do go down it's usually a ball detent that needs replaced or a worn sear. Very rarely do I have to disassemble a '98.

When we are ready to replace our stock, we run a special "Keep the gun day" $100 gets you in, a case of paint, and the gun is yours when the day is done.