pneumag "upgrade" rentals....

[txaggie08]

I've been talking with my boss about possibly offering "upgrade"rentals for the field. We used to do a-5's, but they've walked off.


I think I have a solution to THAT issue worked out(aka, DL and a credit card when you rent, and authorization for me to charge the value of the gun to your CC if not returned...), But I'm searching for a cost effective gun.


My thoughts turned to a classic valved pneumag. I think I could acquire the basic mag(a basic classic with a double trigger frame) for ~100-150$ in good condition. he conversion, using an cheap cocker LPR shouldn't run more than another 50. I think I can turn that investment around in a month or two.

I guess the question here is, how have the pneumag conversions held up durability wise? are there problems with the MSV's wearing out quickly at all? how maintenance intensive is the pneumatics system?


Feedback on that idea would be appreciated, as would suggestions....

[Ninjeff]

seems a bit of an overkill when you could just do cheap-o electronic markers.

But hey, more power to ya!

[senghing27]

Um Spyders were made to be Rentals... They're cheap and no one really cares about them, thus making them less likely to get stolen...

And in agreement with the above poster, It's a tad overkill to be making pneu'ed classics as rentals...

[txaggie08]

You missed the point......


We have about 150 rental guns already, mostly tippmans and spyder clones(gt's to be exact). The idea here is for "upgrade" packages....ie you pay me more(usually 10-15$ above the standard 7.99 rental fee), you get a much nicer gun. We USED to do this with A-5's that were property of the field. Those have walked off, I'm working on a way to turn money on my own by filling a niche. You would be amazed at the number of requests we get for something like this, I was thinking about pneud classics because there durable, fast, and extremely difficult to tinker with or break(there no reason for them to go push buttons trying to get it in full auto as there is with electros...)

Like I said, think y'all missed the concept here.

[senghing27]

See, now that makes better sense...

From the first post, it looked like you were going to upgrade all the rentals to Pneu'ed classics....

Anyways, Yeah, Pneu'ed classics would be a good idea for an 'Upgraded' Rental.

$100 for a base classic and just add more cash for the Pneu modifications and what not.

But wouldn't Ions be cheaper to have as "Upgraded rentals"? Seeing how their whole new line is out, and Ions can be picked up as pennies on the dollar?

[txaggie08]

I had thought about those to.


My two concerns are :

Co2 is nearly mandatory. No on site compressor, and it's nothing for us to eat our tanks in a day. If i was going to provide a service I have to do it all or nothing. I would consider it unethical, and it would be bad business, to rent guns I couldn't support through the day. Keeping my own tanks on site to fill from are a possibility but that would cost me a good bit of money a weekend. I COULD run the ion of A/S Co2, and I do have a couple of stabs sitting around, but even then I think I'm asking for it.....

Durability- let's face it, there new heights of sp junk. I've spent to much time repaiting them for customers....


The ion is another consideration though. I may get one of each to test the concept...

[txaggie08]

On a completely random note, I had also considered acquiring a couple if LED or LCD angels. I see the base models go for 100-150$ now days, and God those would fly off the shelves :D.

[Army]

(Nearly semi-literate occasional player at front counter) "Hi! Can we get a couple rentals?"

"Sure....here ya go" (lays two, sadly beat to crap, Spyders on counter)

"Uhhh...ya got anything a little better?"

"Sure do! Here ya go!" (lays two, badly mangled, worn down to bare metal Tippy's on counter)

"Geez, these don't look any better than the other ones. You sure you have nothing that's less, you know, used up? Something with straight shooting qualities and high end engineering?"

"Well....... we don't normally rent them out.......but we have these PneuMags, they're gonna cost you a bit more, but dang if they ain't worth it!" (begins to snicker to himself for scoring mucho dinero on the rentals. maybe tonight he can finally afford to take Gladys to the freezy burger)

"OMFG! I can't believe it! These are the children of Tom! Please, please please...I'll pay whatever you want, just for the priveledge of being able to be seen with them. I'm not sure we want to actually use them in a game, but we'll take them. OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG, we will be the envy of everyone here. Players will swoon when they see us, heck, they'll prolly just go home in absolute fear of us when they gaze upon the muppet mowing wonders in our hands. Oh yeah, we are gonna kick butt today!! Thank you mister, thank you, thank you, thank you!"



....or something like that. :rofl:

[txaggie08]

doh! :rofl: :dance:


You really would be surprised what people will pay to get the "advantage". Rented a G7 out to a dude one day for 30$.....

[Coralis]

The problem I see with using pnuemags or for that matter any higher end gun is the CO2 limitation and then the need for a upgraded hopper as well. If you had A5 walking out the door think what going to happen to your smaller pnuemags and even smaller hoppers. I'm not saying its not a worthwhile idea I'm just not sure that a pnuemag would be your best choice.

[MedicDVG]

Frankly I think its brilliant. Players are looking for speed, field owners are looking for revenue generators. Pnuemags can be the best of both worlds.

Think about it from a field owner's point of view -- no consumables to eat up your profit margain -- no batteries, no fried boards, ease of service and they throw paint as fast as the little goober can pull the trigger. Sure you can do all that with an UBER XP3200 space gun or one of the crop of **** from **** Parts... but here you have a true workhorse and money maker.

I think you may have something there.. just remove the field strip screws so people aren't walking off with your valves.

hell maybe have some premium rentals which is an vert ULE in a fancy color with an RT Pro valve or something.

Hell -- this forum is always pissing and moaning that there isn't enough exposure to automags and that AGD never did a very good job at marketing -- I think this may actually satisfy a need.

I like the idea. This could open up the world of mags to a whole demographic that heretofore has been untapped.

Way to think outside the box.

[p8ntbal4me]

I hate to say this,.. but IONs are pretty much an idiot proof way to let new players shoot a TON of paint and they are an easy way to sell a new loader at the end of the day.

I know (of one day I played) that my local field let someone "borrow" a field ION for trying it out. That player was in a private group.

After the first game,... 3 players came inside asking to rent the same gun.

One more game after that,... the same 3 guys were looking at loaders.

At the end of the day, 3 IONs were sold and 2 Empire B2s, 2 masks, 2 packs.

While I dont like the ION myself,... they are pretty simple for a tech to take apart and put bacjk together in a matter of 1 game.

The only other route you can go (affordably) would be to purchase e-trigger kits for the model 98s or a-5 and offer those guns as "upgrades".

The e-trigger would mean (to the player) faster gun that the other guys, and more paint shot for the field.

One word of caution. Players, particularly newer ones to semi-seasoned players who are buying some of their own gear,... would rather see working equipment, nice fields, good crowds, friendly staff, good prices, and the field management INVOLVED in the needs of the customer no matter how small or big the budget is.

Im not a field owner. Im just a player whom has been contracted to do THOUSANDS of dollars worth of work and man hours to help make 2 fields alot better because the field owner cares for the needs of his customers. Any business person knows they need to keep the same customer base as well as draw in a new one.

Keeping good rental fleets are a good idea,.. but think about some other areas as well. Something as simple as a new deep sink with a hose on it to let players clean their barrels out is another luxury they can have. Self serve fill stations (if your state allows it), multiple chronos (or multiple chrono ranges), a viewing area for parents, the ability to let parents "watch" the kids out on the fields as observers, new structures, clean tourney air ball fields, etc.

Running a field is a full time thing,... you can always ask your customers publicly what they would like to see offered and go from there.

~ P8nt

[p8ntbal4me]

Frankly I think its brilliant. Players are looking for speed, field owners are looking for revenue generators. Pnuemags can be the best of both worlds.

Think about it from a field owner's point of view -- no consumables to eat up your profit margain -- no batteries, no fried boards, ease of service and they throw paint as fast as the little goober can pull the trigger. Sure you can do all that with an UBER XP3200 space gun or one of the crop of **** from **** Parts... but here you have a true workhorse and money maker.

I think you may have something there.. just remove the field strip screws so people aren't walking off with your valves.

hell maybe have some premium rentals which is an vert ULE in a fancy color with an RT Pro valve or something.

Hell -- this forum is always pissing and moaning that there isn't enough exposure to automags and that AGD never did a very good job at marketing -- I think this may actually satisfy a need.

I like the idea. This could open up the world of mags to a whole demographic that heretofore has been untapped.

Way to think outside the box.


My local field had 100 mini mags with valves that said right on them "Rental".

Something that was done to the valve by AGD,....

[Coralis]

One word of caution. Players, particularly newer ones to semi-seasoned players who are buying some of their own gear,... would rather see working equipment, nice fields, good crowds, friendly staff, good prices, and the field management INVOLVED in the needs of the customer no matter how small or big the budget is.

Amen. when I first got into the game I hating having to rent knowing that atleast once per day I would have waste my valuable playing time waiting to have my rental serviced.

[viper-mayhem]

Would it be possible to somehow build the response trigger like the Benchmark or something like that. I remember that you get 4 shots for 1 pull and 1 release. This what you do not have to do alot of servicing the pneumag internals.

[txaggie08]

One word of caution. Players, particularly newer ones to semi-seasoned players who are buying some of their own gear,... would rather see working equipment, nice fields, good crowds, friendly staff, good prices, and the field management INVOLVED in the needs of the customer no matter how small or big the budget is.


Go back and read the thread, you'll see I'm not talking about opening my own field or running them as primary fleet rentals. I'm talking about offering them on my own at the field I work for as "upgrade" options to the rental groups.

As I said, panthercreek paintball's current rental fleet is GT's(a form side fed spyder clones) and 98's. Those guns are owned by the field owner/manager(aka my boss) and maintained by the staff and himself.

I appreciate the advice but you missed the point...

I'm also loath to rent ion's from past experience. We've had 3 for rentals over time....1 kind of still works, the others died very quickly.

[cyberave68]

Well i hate to be the one to say this, But if your useing CO2 you wont want to use a classic mag valve. If you pneu a classic mag and start hitting a higher ROF the valve will freeze pretty darn quick... Something to think about....

[p8ntbal4me]

Would it be possible to somehow build the response trigger like the Benchmark or something like that. I remember that you get 4 shots for 1 pull and 1 release. This what you do not have to do alot of servicing the pneumag internals.

99.99% of all insurance companies do not allow the autoresponse frame.

They did back in my early days,... but now adays with the fear of full-autos and such,... they are pretty much banned everywhere.

Sux.

[p8ntbal4me]

Go back and read the thread, you'll see I'm not talking about opening my own field or running them as primary fleet rentals. I'm talking about offering them on my own at the field I work for as "upgrade" options to the rental groups.

I read your post. I saw that you were trying to get public opinion about what would be a good alternative to "upgrades" for customers to gain an interest in the rental fleet which can be seen as a marketing matter for the field. "Man! I played at XYZ field last weekend and I rented the new upgraded EGO for an extra $20 buck. Thing was a cyclone and I was the rainmaker!"

I see the questions you were asking. But Im a player, and I had a chance as a contractor to change the field I call home. So when I got the chance,... I rolled a dozer and an excavator to build 2 brand new fields and a larger parking lot.

Just because thats what the owner said his customers wanted.

If your talking to your boss about the rental fleet, keep the other areas in mind when you start working on the numbers. In not saying your wrong,.. because you are VERY right. The rental fleet is the second thing a player will notice when they start to register in the morning.

The first will be the field itself.

Now that I see the way you worded you post,... I would not do such a venture unless you had a signed agreement with the field for a percentage of the rentals.

The reason I say that is,.. the field is a business. If you start to get business and he looses retnal business,.. one of 2 things has to happen: Either he kicks you out and starts offering the upgrade himself, or he tolerates the rental loss and pushes the sale cost onto another area of the business.

Please dont take that the wrong way. Im not assuming I know your boss or you as a person. From a business stand point,... this is not a good idea unless its in writting. If you can do that,.. then its a start to a good thing.

Think about the problems that would come with your guns attached to his name if something breaks on an "upgraded" gun and you dont have enough spares or can fix it.
That means an upset customer, on his field. He has to make that customer happy somehow. And hes not going to give out a free rental to them unless you agree to pay for it from your rentals. Ya know,.. why should he?

What Im saying is look into this. Your idea is new from the point your comming from. And if you can make it work,.. then you have yourself a nice deal to work with. Just protect yourself, and look at it from all the angles you can.

Thats all Im saying. :)

Best Wishes Man,... and Good Luck!

~ P8nt

[p8ntbal4me]

You know,... if you want to look into another area of interest that takes little money to start,... I will throw you a bone here if you ponder it a while.

A family cooked meal at the field.

When I was stationed in NC and I was starting to learn the CFOA,.. there was a guy that would come to each of the fields on the tourney circuit as well as the local days where we would practice.

The field had its usual snack bar and such,.. but he had something more.

For something like $8 dollars, you could get an ear of corn, a plate of pulled pork or turkey smuthered in bar-b- sause or gravy, a biscut, and beans.

It was a plate of home cooked HOT food on a day of paintball,... there was no one that didnt take the meal.

The field sold the drinks, but offered a discount if you bought a plate from the "Pork Man" (thats what we called him)

Later on, the field put up a pre-registration for the weekend to book in advance (back then, not too many people were doing it) and they offered a coupon for a dollar off the plate if you pre-paid for registration.

Now think about that for the field. If the field fee is $10, thats $9 comming back to them, plus a DEFINATE head count MINIMUM for the day. So they know at the MINIMUM what they need for staff. The "Pork Man" gets his $1 dollar back (obviously because it helped the field owner) and he still gets the sale for food. The field onwer actually MAKES money if the player doesnt show. And we all know that we are on tight budgets some times so if we pre-pay,.. we will show (most of the time). And so what if the player doesnt show and they pre-pay? The field owner can cover the staffing by the $9 he made for a player that didnt show.

Just an idea. I noticed you had some "texan" in your user name, and on my last trip to Grapevine, I had some AWESOME food there. Might be something very simple you can do with one other person and some propane burners with deep pots.

~ P8nt

[CKY_Alliance]

Only problem I can see with classics valves is they chop pretty bad..unless you get lvl 10's in all of them...but then you have to tune them..which wouldn't be so bad but..ehh..

Why not like PMR's or something...or quest they are what 400 now? When I bought my mag that's about what it cost for a classic (well to get it so it was worth shooting)..actually I see you plan on buying used? 100-150, unless they have had a huge price drop..

[Scott Hudnall]

best buy right now on used guns that could work as an upgrade, as you are talking about, would be a used Impulse. Can find 'em cheap on ebay, still find plenty of parts/kits for servicing them, etc. And, a good quality gun to boot. not as good quality as a 'mag....but I think you are asking for service nigthmares with the pneumag option. Also, the impy runs perfectly fine on CO2.

But, why not just offer the classic automag as an upgrade over the GT and Tippmans?

[drg]

While I understand the enthusiasm generated by this question on -- go figure -- a Mag board, I would have to say that this is actually not a real good idea. Several reasons:

1. Do inielliframed/decent pneu-able-framed mags really go for $100-150?
2. "Hey this gun leaks!" Pneumags hiss a lot even when working properly.
3. You'll want level 10 on any pneumag, let alone a rental. Add $50 minimum for that.
4. CO2 won't really work well at the high ROFs achievable with the pneumags. This is going to be a problem with the classic valve, i believe.
5. LPR can come unset/overpressurized/othewise messed with by renter.
6. Trigger setting - pneumags work up to maximum capability when the trigger is set very short. However this makes the safety useless and makes the gun VERY toughy. When you lengthen the pull enough to use the safety/make the trigger a little more rental friendly, you might as well just use ULT with that trouble trigger and save yourself the headache.
7. General complexity. The pneu setup on a pneumag is not all that trouble or tuning-free. At least compared to some of the simpler electros or blowbacks out there.

if the A5s were working for you in this role, I'd say go that route with better security.

[Ruler_Mark]

1. they wont hit the 16+ bps that flashy people want but they can gooo
2. "Hey this gun leaks!" Pneumags hiss a lot even when working properly. -- Oh well noobs dont even notice it most of the time anyway
3. You'll want level 10 on any pneumag, let alone a rental. Add $50 minimum for that-- just make the rigger pull long by not making the level as long or eliminating the lever
4. CO2 won't really work well at the high ROFs achievable with the pneumags. This is going to be a problem with the classic valve, i believe. -- not if they keep the guns ging slower
5. LPR can come unset/overpressurized/othewise messed with by renter. -- locktite please
6. Trigger setting - pneumags work up to maximum capability when the trigger is set very short. However this makes the safety useless and makes the gun VERY toughy. When you lengthen the pull enough to use the safety/make the trigger a little more rental friendly, you might as well just use ULT with that trouble trigger and save yourself the headache. -- get bleeder asa's as safety
7. General complexity. The pneu setup on a pneumag is not all that trouble or tuning-free. At least compared to some of the simpler electros or blowbacks out there. -- yes but you set it and forget it. I have seen many retals just suck

[jade_monkey07]

Frankly I think its brilliant. Players are looking for speed, field owners are looking for revenue generators. Pnuemags can be the best of both worlds.

Think about it from a field owner's point of view -- no consumables to eat up your profit margain -- no batteries, no fried boards, ease of service and they throw paint as fast as the little goober can pull the trigger. Sure you can do all that with an UBER XP3200 space gun or one of the crop of **** from **** Parts... but here you have a true workhorse and money maker.

I think you may have something there.. just remove the field strip screws so people aren't walking off with your valves.

hell maybe have some premium rentals which is an vert ULE in a fancy color with an RT Pro valve or something.

Hell -- this forum is always pissing and moaning that there isn't enough exposure to automags and that AGD never did a very good job at marketing -- I think this may actually satisfy a need.

I like the idea. This could open up the world of mags to a whole demographic that heretofore has been untapped.

Way to think outside the box.
im with you on that one, my second gun is a minimag valved ule body with pnue grip...everyone that picks it up always asks "this is your second gun?!?!"


Great idea!

[drg]

1. they wont hit the 16+ bps that flashy people want but they can gooo

Why not? Actually that's not as much of a concern as the short stroking.


2. "Hey this gun leaks!" Pneumags hiss a lot even when working properly. -- Oh well noobs dont even notice it most of the time anyway

Yet you will get some players returning to inquire about it. An issue other rental guns don't have.


3. You'll want level 10 on any pneumag, let alone a rental. Add $50 minimum for that-- just make the rigger pull long by not making the level as long or eliminating the lever

Defeating the purpose of a pneumag. Might as well just ULT. And you increase the likelihood of short stroking, which is the #1 culprit for chops with pneumags.


4. CO2 won't really work well at the high ROFs achievable with the pneumags. This is going to be a problem with the classic valve, i believe. -- not if they keep the guns ging slower

How do you propose they do that? A properly set-up pneumag has no problem hitting 13-14+BPS, which is going to be a real problem on CO2 on a classic valve.


5. LPR can come unset/overpressurized/othewise messed with by renter. -- locktite please

Uh no. Just no.


6. Trigger setting - pneumags work up to maximum capability when the trigger is set very short. However this makes the safety useless and makes the gun VERY toughy. When you lengthen the pull enough to use the safety/make the trigger a little more rental friendly, you might as well just use ULT with that trouble trigger and save yourself the headache. -- get bleeder asa's as safety

Gassing and degassing a gun that many times is undesirable at best, during degassing or gassing is one of the most common times for unintentional triggering.


7. General complexity. The pneu setup on a pneumag is not all that trouble or tuning-free. At least compared to some of the simpler electros or blowbacks out there. -- yes but you set it and forget it. I have seen many retals just suck

Most guns are technically "set and forget" ... it's how likely it is to come out of tune/break down/need work and how easy it is to do that work. Pneumags aren't really the best in these areas. I own a pretty reliable pneumag and still would not think they are ideal rental guns.

Bottom line is, the pneu setup adds a great deal of complexity, cost and potential points of failure. Will it, especially on CO2, give you anything more than a double trigger with ULT? Probably not. If they can't walk the pneumag, there is no point to it.

You are just grasping at straws to justify the pneumag route, but ultimately it's not as good as other routes. The only real superior reason to do it is because you love pneumags.