non-mag shooting zgrip users.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

i was sportin my zgrip retro last week when a few people asked me to try it out. of course i wanted to show off the mag so i handed it over. i let about 3 people shoot it when i noticed something. all these people(none of them shot mags) knew how to hold the thing. they still cocked their wrists like they were on a regular frame. i looked and kept correcting them but they just weren't getting it. is it me? do you have to shoot mags to know how to shoot a zgrip? they just couldn't keep their wrists straight. i couldn't understand. is it really taht difficult? i don't think it is. i don't know.

[Wheelman]

Most people, when they have trained themselves to do something have a hard time breaking thier patterns. Like a right hander with perfect penmanship switching the pen to his left hand and writing (not a very good example, sorry)
Or better, someone who owns a car with a standard transmisson gettin into an automatic and taking off, I hope I am not the only one out there who has mistaken the brake for a clutch.

[booyah]

I hate driving my girlfriends car!!! dang automagic...

but back on topic, many people out there have gotten used to making compensations for the 45 frame since that is all they have ever known... then when you give them something that is better they have no idea how to use it, and even if they did it wouldnt feel right or be as user accurate since they arent used to it.

those are two reasons why the zgrip didnt take off as it should have... I know i loved mine when i had it, but just couldnt stop short stroking on a classic mag, when it was on an RT i could rock on it.

-Booyah

[alf]

they put it up to their shoulder, and they get this look on their face like they just tasted paint...

then i tell em "put it up HIGH on your shoulder...tuck your elbow in...see how easy it is to keep your elbow in now? its REALLY comfortable in a big game"

and then they go "ahhhhh...it looks funky, but feels good"

[Army]

Not really unusual. While at PanAm in Vegas, I was letting everyone shoot Big Red since most had never seen a Z up close, if at all. 98% did as you said, held it like a regular frame, then said "It's hard to hold....how can you run and shoot....I don't see how it is different....can you put one on a 'cocker....it looks ugly....it looks cool....how do you shoot it....what's wrong with that grip dude?"

After I showed them that it is ergonomically correct, and that their ROF would go up, many changed their mind about it. I could have sold a few while there!

I always get funny looks at the field, and then they notice the Zgrip......(rim shot, cymbal crash)......but I also get positive comments about the frame from players who "get it".

[shartley]

I see that explanation a lot… ergonomics. Well, there are reasons why trigger frames are the way they are… and I have long since stopped trying to explain it to Z-Grip enthusiasts. But really.. who cares? No matter what you use, the idea is to improve your game, and you really can’t (or shouldn’t) argue personal preferences and individual results.

So, I always say…. to each their own. If it helps YOUR game, then it isn’t wrong… it is as simple as that. Just like I tell people all the time.. with many things the question is not “What is best”, but “What is best for YOU.”.

But ergonomics will never win over the masses. It was proved with the Z-Grip and other “forward thinking” adaptations of products.

Why do I say this? Because many things that are designed to reduce stress, put your hands in a more comfortable position, etc. end up not being the “great advancement” it is touted to be. Take the ergonomic keyboard. It is LOGICAL, and scientifically tested to reduce stress to the wrists and forearms… can’t argue with that, it is true. But most who have tried them simply hate them… and I have to agree with them. You have to totally re-learn how to type and hand positions. And I will stick with my standard keyboard. AND you will still find some people who will argue with you over how GREAT they are. Again, to each their own.

One “forward thinking” and ergonomic design I WILL say that has been a winner in my book, is the “S” curved shovel. Since I just spent a good part of the day shoveling snow, I can tell you that is a back saver. My first use of this style of shovel was about 25 years ago and you only saw just a couple out there.. You really had to shop around to get a hold of one of those babies… but now? Heck, they are everywhere. And being 6’ 4”… this is a MUST! :D

But, why argue the Z-Grip VS standard grip stuff? It didn’t take off.. so what? Life goes on. If you have one and it improves your game, wonderful. As for the rest of the world, why bother trying to “convince” anyone? I find in life that usually when I run into someone who is always trying to convince me of something, that it is less to actually convince ME, but to convince themselves. ;)

[Wheelman]

You know what would be cool, a Z-grip and one of those 15* ASA things. If you walked at an angle you could really mess with people....and start to question your own sanity.

[FooTemps]

There's another egronomic design that everone loves in paintball... DYE STICKY GRIPS! Yes, they are egronomic. Those finger grooves really help raise comfort levels cuz it keeps your fingers from crunching. I haven't tried the 32* gel grips but I assume they are the same.

[Xzion]

The way I figure it, I have my Z-Grip and love it, if someone is intrested in trying it and ask me if they can try it, sure I'll show em how to hold it properly and such, if they dont like it, thats their 'problem', not mine, I'll love it whether they do or not, heck, most of the people I know locally that ive shown it to didnt really care for it, as far as I'm concerned, its their loss my gain. As shartly said, To each their own.

[MajorDamage]

We hooked my Zgrip up to my friend's shocker to see what it looked like, it looked cool! :D

ENDO!

[Bad Dave]

Path Dependence

Why did VHS win over Betamax

PC over Apple Mac

Qwerty over other designs in keyboard layout

Once established path dependence can set in and allow inefficient solutions win out over better more logical/efficient solutions.

[FooTemps]

Hm... Are you trying the say the z-grip will fail? The .45 grip is an efficient design for a real gun though but in paintball it's innefficient. People don't understand the paintball guns don't really apply like real guns do and always mistake egronomic design for... uh, weird(give me a break, I couldn't think of a good word...)

I consider the qwerty design of a keyboard to be pretty egronomic actually. An "ABCDEFG" design would be far to hard to type because most of the time you have to use only one hand to type on each side. typing something like alphabet wouldn't be hard but typing things like alex would be a pain in the butt because my middle finger would be dancing around the keyboard...

[shartley]

FooTemps

Hm... Are you trying the say the z-grip will fail? The .45 grip is an efficient design for a real gun though but in paintball it's innefficient. People don't understand the paintball guns don't really apply like real guns do and always mistake egronomic design for... uh, weird(give me a break, I couldn't think of a good word...)
I would be so bold as to say noone has to SAY the Z-Grip “will” fail… it actually already DID, or else Tom would never have stopped making them. He also would not have had to run a thread asking for pre-orders of a limited number. There would have been no question as to its worth as a viable profit producing product.

This is not saying the Z-Grip is “bad”… it was just proven to not be what the consumer market wanted. And no amount of “convincing” will change that fact. A few loud yelling zealots do not prove the world will come to an end.. and neither will a hand full of diehard Z-Grip owners convince the mass buying market that the Z-Grip is “the way to go” or even that it did not “fail” as a product.

I think some may be confusing the two issues… Failing in design, and Failing as a product. And these are two totally different issues. If Z-Grip users do well with their grips, it did not fail as a design for certain people… but if it did not sell and become a standard (heck even not standard, but substantial at least) used grip by paintball players. It has become a novelty item in the world of paintball. But again, this is not saying it is bad.

Again, to each their own. If you are doing well with what you use, who cares what anyone else says.. but I find it funny that those doing well with standard grips are not really the ones that seem to be convincing the world that they are right… it is the Z-Grip folks… and who really cares… except the Z-Grip folks. ;)


I consider the qwerty design of a keyboard to be pretty egronomic actually. An "ABCDEFG" design would be far to hard to type because most of the time you have to use only one hand to type on each side. typing something like alphabet wouldn't be hard but typing things like alex would be a pain in the butt because my middle finger would be dancing around the keyboard...
Yes, the way the letters on a keyboard are laid out in the Qwerty design is better than just laying out the letters in the ABCDEFG manner. But, it was not the best way to do it (as Bad Dave eluded to). Here is an interesting tidbit I am sure you will find interesting… and actually relates very well to the Z-Grip.

A Short History of QWERTY

In 1867, Christopher Latham Sholes, a Milwaukee printer, filed a patent application for a mechanical writing machine. Unlike the manual typewriters you may remember from your youth, his machine had its typebars on the bottom, striking upward to leave an impression on the paper. This arrangement had two serious drawbacks. First, because the printing point was underneath the paper carriage, it was invisible to the typist. Second, if a typebar became jammed, it too, remained invisible to the operator. Sholes worked for the next six years to try to eliminate this problem, trying mechanical changes and different keyboard arrangements.

In 1873, E. Remington & Sons licensed the design from Scholes, and set their engineers to work to on the design. One of their keyboard layout changes was driven by a clever marketing idea. The Remington brand name, TYPE WRITER, could be most speedily typed if all of its letters were on the same row. Remington's salesmen used this slight bit of subterfuge to impress potential customers.

Competing designs continued to be introduced over the next six decades that solved the mechanical jamming problem, and enabled faster typing. These designs ranged from the so-called "Ideal" keyboard, which placed the most commonly used letters of the alphabet -- DHIATENSOR -- in the home row (circa 1880), to the more well-known Dvorak keyboard, patented in 1932.

How much better were these other designs? During the second World War, the US Navy conducted experiments and discovered that the Dvorak layout increased typing productivity so significantly, that the payback time to retrain a group of typists was only ten days! But these designs were never successful in the marketplace.

Why would firms consistently buy an inferior product? The answer lies not in the device, but in the context of how the devices were employed. Typewriters by themselves, are unproductive objects. Their productive employment requires the presence of a skilled operator - the typist. In the late 1880's, the practice of "touch typing" (where you don't cheat and look at your fingers) was developed. And it was developed for the Remington keyboard. So while competing typewriter designers were heralding their advantages to potential typewriter purchasers, the typists were learning how to use the Remington QWERTY keyboard.
Economists describe the outcome of situations like this with terms like "system scale economies," "entry barriers," and "quasi-irreversibility of investment." Most of us would describe it more simply as:
GAME OVER .
- Copyright © 1996 Knowledge Share LLC
The marketplace and other factors often determine what will, and will not work. Not always what product is “best” will win out on the open market. And people can sit and argue all they want about why a product did not make it, or that the best product was not used or did not become a successful product (and even for stupid reasons), but that will never change the fact that it did NOT become a successful product.

And the manufacturers of the products that DID become successful could care less… as do their customers.
Enjoy your Z-Grip. Enjoy your 45 Grip. I think when people stop trying to find things that make us different, and start focusing on the things that make us the same, the sport will progress past that “childish” image the rest of the world sees it having.

I have NEVER seen anyone pick on another Billiards Player because he/she did not use the same brand of Cue. Most players do have favorite brands, but will agree that it is more a price range and quality range over what brand of cue it is.

You will never see a Billiards Player even think of arguing that his $1500 cue is better than a $50. They BOTH will put the balls in the pockets. The $1500 IS better than the $50 cue. And if you are a bad player, no cue will change that… same with if you are a good player. See a similarity here? Good players will do good with just about any quality of equipment… same with paintball. But Paintball takes things in another direction… unfortunately.

In billiards you may see chest puffing, and “skill” touting. But that is much different than childish arguments about “equipment”. In fact you will often see a billiards player put AWAY his “good stick” and use a “bar cue” to prove his skill.

The difference is that in Paintball… the players will ARGUE about stupid things. They argue about PRODUCTS and EQUIPMENT. I keep seeing Paintball Players say things like “Hey, it isn’t the Marker that wins, it is the player.” But then in the next breath, they will fight to the death over brand or product loyalty.

Some people need to get a grip on reality and what is truly important… and what really matters. (no this was not aimed at YOU.. it was a general statement. ;))

[FooTemps]

Wow! I see what you mean about the failing a product thing. I would like one of those Dvorak boards if it could increase my typing productivity as much as they say it does. It's strange how people always do things the hard way.

[Army]

Daaaaanng! I actually enjoyed reading a Shartley post!:)

[Royal Assassin]

Damn that was an awsome post shartley!!!

RA

[Bad Dave]

Originally posted by FooTemps
Hm... Are you trying the say the z-grip will fail? The .45 grip is an efficient design for a real gun though but in paintball it's innefficient.

Foo I used to have a z grip.

Path dependance comes from industrial organisation and theories of the firm, it is a reaction to the theory that firms survive by being the most efficient. Path dependance seeks to illustrat that firms can survive for other reasons not relating to efficiency. The qwerty keyboard as illustrated by Shartley in depth is a good example (I hope u had to look that up Shartley as you could use the space in your head for better uses).

My point is that the Z is more efficient however once the Path of .45 grips is taken people become locked into the technology. It does not create cognitive dissonance to go with the flow, use a qwerty, .45 grip, VHS, or PC does it?

Every additional person chosing the .45 makes it easier for more people to use them. People have to change their subconscious habits to use the z ( ie unlearn the .45) So picking it up is strange for most.

I back the Z but think it should be available for every gun not just the mag/rt.

Dave.

[hitech]

Have you ever noticed that the "better" product is rarely the most popular product?