Ultimate L10 variable rate spring

[flyingpootang]

Ok here is my idea. Use a variable rate L10 bolt spring to achieve the highest anti chop capability and still be able to chrono at 285 fps or below. I haven't tried it yet, but I was going to use the longest L10 spring and heat up about 1/16 to 1/8 of the springs length to relive some of the tension of the spring. This should allow for the spring to unseat at a lower velocity while still allow for the best anti chop capabilities because of the length. If this works the spring should be reheat treated to avoid any brittleness that may have occurred. What are your thoughts....

[Warwitch]

Sounds like an awesome idea. Works in good suspension.

[DvS21]

hmm, it sounds smart... try it and let us know.

[MANN]

hmmm. like you said you will have to be carefull about it being brittle. LMK how it works out.

[Coralis]

Not that I'm trying to discourage you but I don't think this is going to work because the anti chop feature of the level 10 works in the first 1/4" of bolt travel , and is softer on paint with a stiffer spring. If you heat and soften the spring it will compress that part first and make the bolt hit harder on the paint. If you make the heated section harder it will just compress the softer part of the spring first and i doubt you will see any benefits there. Heres hoping I'm wrong

[flyingpootang]

Coralis, Since the spring is longer than the bolt the first 1/16 to 1/8 % of the spring isn't necessarily responsible for the anti chop features. I think it's more like the first 1/4" movement of the bolt where it vents and give you the anti chop capabilities. I talk to Roman from AGD a while back and he mentioned that the Beta testers cut a couple of coils off of the longest spring and got some good results. The downside was that the spring didn't sit flush and it would compress crooked. Thanks for the input and keep the ideas coming. If all goes well i should test it out by next week....

[athomas]

The cutting of the springs allowed us to achieve a bolt spring that was slightly less stiff due to the removing of a coil or two.

If you want a truely adjustable spring, don't change the spring, change the length but adding spacers closest to the body where the spring rests. Each shim would increase the spring tension in a controllable amount.

[SR_matt]

re heattreating it will null and void the tempering you do, also the tempering of the spring will prevent it from returning to the proper size and tension.

-matt

[Spider-TW]

Not that I'm trying to discourage you but I don't think this is going to work because the anti chop feature of the level 10 works in the first 1/4" of bolt travel , and is softer on paint with a stiffer spring. If you heat and soften the spring it will compress that part first and make the bolt hit harder on the paint. If you make the heated section harder it will just compress the softer part of the spring first and i doubt you will see any benefits there. Heres hoping I'm wrong

Yep, you'll have a non-linear spring, just not in the direction you are looking for. You can get the same effect by changing wire diameter or winding pitch (or winding diameter if you had space for a cone shaped spring :) ). None of that is very practical for a bolt spring, but they are different ways to see the same effect. The soft part will always go first unless it is already compressed.

Maybe there is a strain sensitive material that would work the other way around. The space program used to generate unusual materials like that for which no one had a better use.

[flyingpootang]

Athomas,
If you want a truely adjustable spring, don't change the spring, change the length but adding spacers closest to the body where the spring rests. Each shim would increase the spring tension in a controllable amount.
You where one of the Beta testers? Your input will be valuable. What would you recommend for spacers and have you tried it yet?


SR_matt,
re heattreating it will null and void the tempering you do, also the tempering of the spring will prevent it from returning to the proper size and tension.
I took that into consideration so that's why I would start with the longest spring and only heat the first 1- 1 1/2 coil.


Spider-TW,
The soft part will always go first unless it is already compressed.
That's my intention is to allow the weakened portion of the spring to unseat at a lower velocity, while the stiffer portion will still allow the best anti-chop possibility.

Thanks for the great input guys and keep it coming :dance:

[SR_matt]

o what i mean was that you said you were going to temper down that part of the coil THEN re-heattreat it. that makes it pointless if you were to temper and then reharden it

-matt

[flyingpootang]

o what i mean was that you said you were going to temper down that part of the coil THEN re-heattreat it. that makes it pointless if you were to temper and then reharden it

-matt

Matt, What your thinking of is re-arching a spring which will restore the springiness of the spring. What I'm talking about is heat treating a spring. This is when the metal is brought to a certain temperature, then slowly brought down over time to get rid of the brittleness in the metal.

[SR_matt]

we are using the same terms to say different things

heat threat- full process of hardening metal 1 heat up metal, 2 quench metal, 3 temper metal

tempering- "Baking" the metal at a certain temperature for a period of time to reduce the hardness thus reducing the brittleness of the metal



tempering the metal, which is what your talking about doing, will reduce the amount of time the spring can cycle before it does not return to its original shape.

i think this is going to be a lot harder than you think (i do not know your experience in metal working so i could be totally off but im going to just go over the basic things to consider for those that do not have much metal working knowledge).

things that will affect the out come
-alloy of metal
-temperatures the metal is exposed to and the length of time
-the environment the metal is heated and cooled in

those are the simple ones. basically to do this properly you will need to have metallurgy info, medium level physics, access to precision tools to control the heating and cooling, and access to tools to check the temper/ RC hardness of the metal after the fact.

you might be able to get good results by just using a torch but its going to be more luck than science. i am not trying to bash your abilities but unless you work with metals for a living it is going to be extremely difficult to achieve this.

-matt

[athomas]

This is when the metal is brought to a certain temperature, then slowly brought down over time to get rid of the brittleness in the metal.That makes the metal maleable, which is the opposite of brittle. The problem with that is, any compression of the treated part of the spring would stay that way once the force was removed. It would essentially remove the "spring" from the spring.

I was one of the lucky first guys to have the level 10 bolts. They were shop tested and then given to a few people that worked closely with AGD. Then approximately 65 sets were allowed to be sent out to loyal AO users for testing and we provided feedback on how they worked in the real world.

As for determining an adjustment amount (A) for a shimmed bolt spring system, you could use any washer that fit snug in the body that had a hole large enough for the bolt to pass through. You would have to determine the maximum amount of thickness that you could use by measuring the distance (B) the bolt protrudes into the breach without a bolt spring. Subtract from that amount the minimum distance (C) that you want the bolt to protrude with the spring installed. That would give you an amount of distance (D) that could be occupied by a compressed spring and shims. Now count the coils in the spring and measure their diameter ( or measure the length of the compressed spring (E) ). Subtract E from D and you will be left with a maximum value for A. The value for A should be able to be varied from 0 to A.

[flyingpootang]

Matt,
heat threat- full process of hardening metal 1 heat up metal, 2 quench metal, 3 temper metal

Heat treating/normalizing the metal dose not include quenching the metal. when you quench a metal it's rapidly cooled which results in hardining the metal.

I'm not trying to re-temper/re-arch the spring either because its pointless to take away the springiness then put it back.

I work as a Aircraft Mechanic, so I do have and a bit about metallurgy, fabrication machinery, non destrauctive testing, etc....

[SR_matt]

wait i just realized something, this idea is trying to take something that gives variable resistance and give more varied resistance. a spring before compression gives 0 resistance and then as you compress it it will give you up to X resistance, by making part of the spring softer you reduce the amount of maxim resistance you can get. unless you use a longer spring made out of the same material with the same springness (ya bad word but you understand what i mean) then you cannot increase the resistance at all, if you use a longer spring with a softer springyness than the original spring but that because of its over all length you get the same total spring coefficient (i think that is the right term) then you might be able to achieve somewhat of what you want.


-matt

[SR_matt]

Matt,

Heat treating/normalizing the metal dose not include quenching the metal. when you quench a metal it's rapidly cooled which results in hardining the metal.

I'm not trying to re-temper/re-arch the spring either because its pointless to take away the springiness then put it back.

I work as a Aircraft Mechanic, so I do have and a bit about metallurgy, fabrication machinery, non destrauctive testing, etc....

"heat treating" refers to hardening and tempering the metal. normalizing is a different process than heat treating. it may be because when i use these terms i am used to talking about knife making but even in all the metalworking things i have seen "heat treating" has always referred to hardening the metal and can also cover tempering but never just tempering.
-matt

[flyingpootang]

"heat treating" refers to hardening and tempering the metal. normalizing is a different process than heat treating. it may be because when i use these terms i am used to talking about knife making but even in all the metalworking things i have seen "heat treating" has always referred to hardening the metal and can also cover tempering but never just tempering.
-matt

Heat treating also covers how ductile a metal is. Normalizing is the proper terminology, but re-heat treating is more commonly used in the aeronautic industry because all the metal we use are already heat treated when we get them. I guess if I spent more time in sheet metal I would use the proper terminology of normalizing.

[Spider-TW]

Heat treating also covers how ductile a metal is. Normalizing is the proper terminology, but re-heat treating is more commonly used in the aeronautic industry because all the metal we use are already heat treated when we get them. I guess if I spent more time in sheet metal I would use the proper terminology of normalizing.
Gunsmithing books cover spring making. The Brownell's series is fun to read, but the spring stuff is scattered throughout.