Trying the accuracy question one more time...

[hitech]

Now that there was been all the discussion about accuracy and not blindly accepting what is written I want to again ask WHY does a "good" paint to barrel match improve accuracy (I accept that more consistent is more accurate). Why isn't a "tighter" barrel just as accurate as a "properly" matched barrel? There would be increased friction, which would reduce efficiency, but what does efficiency have to do with accuracy?

Please don't post, "just get a freak". I'm questioning a popular theory because I don't understand WHY it works.

Thanks in advance.

[FooTemps]

Wouldn't you get more barrel breaks in a tighter barrel?;)
That's why we don't get tighter barrles...

[Miscue]

If the barrel is too tight you're gonna bust balls.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Miscue
If the barrel is too tight you're gonna bust balls.

I can understand that. What is tight enough to break balls? My stroker has what seems to me to be a "tight" barrel (tighter that a Dye something or other, SP Progressive and stock mini mag barrels) put it NEVER breaks balls in the barrel. The only breaks I get are "chops".

Also, do you think a tighter that optimum fit is less accurate?

Thanks.

[hitech]

Does anyone know the answer? Does anyone care?

[FooTemps]

The barrel would have to be perfect if it was a tighter than optimum fit. If the barrel inside was just a bit oblong it would throw the accuracy out the window but that's the same for any barrel. The only difference is that it would be more noticable.

[Restola]

there seems to be a general agreement that this is how you make sure the paint is the right size:

take off your barrel
place a paintball in the gun-side of the barrel
if you can blow it through with a light puff it is good

if it rols through it will decrease efficiency and maybe accuracy

if it wont blow through you'll get breaks, like everyone said.

[headcase]

Originally posted by hitech


I can understand that. What is tight enough to break balls? My stroker has what seems to me to be a "tight" barrel (tighter that a Dye something or other, SP Progressive and stock mini mag barrels) put it NEVER breaks balls in the barrel. The only breaks I get are "chops".

Also, do you think a tighter that optimum fit is less accurate?

Thanks.


Well the reason your Stroker doesn't brake balls down the barrel is because it is smaller in the breach than the middle of the barrel. I can't remember the exact numbers but they usually go from .689 to .700 and then back to .689 or so at the muzzle. It is just the way PPS hones their barrels. But for most of the barrel lenght the bore is larger than it is at the ends. I have no idea why the PPS barrels work so well, I just know what on all of the PPS markers I've had, they shoot pretty much all paint well.

[hitech]

Originally posted by headcase
Well the reason your Stroker doesn't brake balls down the barrel is because it is smaller in the breach than the middle of the barrel. I can't remember the exact numbers but they usually go from .689 to .700 and then back to .689 or so at the muzzle.

Very interesting. I did not know that. Glenn never mentioned it. I'll have to ask him about that. Thanks.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

if you have an optimum fit, when you shoot the ball, the air pressure behind it shoots the ball without any air going in front of the ball. that means it comes out straight without any air pushing to either side. if you have a barrel that has to large of a bore, air will get in front of the ball. when the paint catches up, it will get bobbled in the barrel so when it finall exits, it's not going to be going straight on target. if the bore is to small, well that is obvious. that what is what i've seen and does seem logical. correct me if i'm wrong anyone.


my question is that if the latter half of a barrel is a larger bore than the first half(IE:freak, 2 piece barrels), wouldn't the air escape around the ball before it hits the porting anyways? that would then, in theory cause the ball to bobble around before it exited the barrel.

[headcase]

Originally posted by hitech


Very interesting. I did not know that. Glenn never mentioned it. I'll have to ask him about that. Thanks.


They call it "elliptical honing". And I'm pretty damn sure they do it to Strokers, I know they do to Typhoons, and Blazer barrels.

[hitech]

Originally posted by headcase
They call it "elliptical honing". And I'm pretty damn sure they do it to Strokers, I know they do to Typhoons, and Blazer barrels.

I'll have to ask him about it. Mine is a VERY old conversion (1991) so MAYBE he didn't do it back then. You never know. Glenn likes to talk, esp. about his products. ;) I'm sure he will be glad to discuss it with me. I'll post the results when I get a chance to talk to him.

[ronron2112]

part one of my message is off topic.. but i cam here about an hour ago, and footemps had 15 or 16 posts, now he has 31!! wow amazing...


now for the 2nd part..

im assuming, being the blunt reader i am, that the better the match, the less the ball will "wobble" on the barrel, so the air can push on the ball with a constant force. If the ball can move in the barrel, it can upset the flightpath.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by ronron2112
part one of my message is off topic.. but i cam here about an hour ago, and footemps had 15 or 16 posts, now he has 31!! wow amazing...


now for the 2nd part..

im assuming, being the blunt reader i am, that the better the match, the less the ball will "wobble" on the barrel, so the air can push on the ball with a constant force. If the ball can move in the barrel, it can upset the flightpath.

Look, posting a lot doesn't mean I make useless posts. Don't assume I just post useless crap because I want to get my post count up. If I did I would have flooded the forum a lot earlier.
AND...

He isn't asking about bigger bore, he's asking about tigher bore. There would be no ball wobble if the ball was in a bore smaller than the ball. This is just for clarification...

[ronron2112]

hey foo, i wasnt flaming or anything.. its kinda funny, dont take it seriously!!;)



and i said that i suck at reading when im tired, so bear with it..

[Snap_Dogg]

Originally posted by hitech


I can understand that. What is tight enough to break balls? My stroker has what seems to me to be a "tight" barrel (tighter that a Dye something or other, SP Progressive and stock mini mag barrels) put it NEVER breaks balls in the barrel. The only breaks I get are "chops".

Also, do you think a tighter that optimum fit is less accurate?

Thanks.

part of the reason you sometime get chops is like you said the ball is too big and wont fit through the barrel at the first part and then just pops

[hitech]

Originally posted by ronron2112
...the better the match, the less the ball will "wobble" on the barrel, so the air can push on the ball with a constant force. If the ball can move in the barrel, it can upset the flightpath.

It makes sense that if the ball "wobbles" in the barrel it would upset the flightpath. However, why would it need to have a good "match". Shouldn't it need to be tight enough? If it was "too" tight it shouldn't "wobble", right?

[hitech]

I stopped by Palmer's yesterday and spoke with Larry (he's been there for a long time). I asked him about the elliptical honing thing. He told me that is in fact what they do. My old stroker (PMI 1) had a tighter barrel that the stock they use for making barrels now, so the difference is greater. In both the barrels they make and in my old conversion the center is honed to the same diameter (.690 I think he said). I have NO barrel breakage problems with the stroker, including the PMI Premium (with the advantage shell). VERY interesting.

[HyperSnyper]

Hitech,

I am new to the eliptical honing process, does this mean that the bore is actually an "oval" versus a perfect "circle".

As for the paint matching, you can read Tom's tech tip about matching.

Basically too tight a fit would create excess friction. The tight bore may be too small where it will force the ball to deform small and implode inside the barrel.

If in fact it does make it out the barrel, the excess fricton will cause certainparts of the ball to grab the walls and cause a spin. When it exits the barre, it will hook enough to be off mark.

A perfect paint to barrel match will be large enough toreduce friction, but small enough to make a good seal between the walls and the paint shell. When it makes a good seal, you will get more consistent results since the seal will ensure the same amount of gas is used to propel the ball and not bypass the seal.

Too large a bore and you got balls rolling out. In the case with guns with ball detents, there will be a great loss in efficiency. There will be excessive amounts of gas bypassing the ball and will cause a great fps drop and inconsistencies. My spyder and Boomy (think its a 690 bore) does not work well with Allstars and Infernos, my GF was shooting it and had to up it an extra 50 psi to compensate. Used Slamball instead and the fps jumped since the paint had a better match.

Read Tom's Tech tips if you want to read the article he wrote. And read my post about how recoil can affect your accuracy and how the Superbolt will be the solution.


-Hyper

[laysomepaint]

im not sure if that really effects accuracy, but i know that if you have the "perfect" barrel to paint match, your efficiency will be better. Tighten the bore: more friction, more force needed. Loosen bore: more gas escaping around ball instead of pushing it, more gas needed.

[hitmanng]

Wow I am not sure I even want to get into this again. It is primarily a question of fluid dynamics. Short of breaking a ball the spin imparted will have little or no effect. Efficiency is an issue but not your question. Imagine you are shooting a sling shot not a Mag. All the air before the release is just pushing. The question is what are the forces on the ball as it exits the barrel. If the barr is bouncing around a large bore or the stepped bore of a stepped bore barrel then acuracy will decrease due to the fact that it is not headed in a straight direction when it exits the barrel.
On the other hand if the ball needs to deform significantly to make it out of the barrel the expansion on release can make the ball bounce out into another direction. ei a curve shot. The point is these are extremes. One larger barrel and one standard barrel should suit anyone. If you are going from Big ball on a humid day to RPS advantage shells you cannot use the smae barrel. If you don't believe me put both in your hopper and take a new shot on a humid day. Generally speaking most paint can go through most barrels if they have no defects and are not bent without a problem.
Hitmanng