cold weather paintball

[automag from okinawa]

cold weather paintball
[IMG]http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3/Sednal/valve-bolt.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3/Sednal/gun-remote.jpg


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Sorry to sound ignorant but I've been out of it for a little while (10-11 years). I started playing in subtropical Okinawa with a 2nd hand feild trraccer, moved up to a F1 illustrator and than ended up trading a motorcycle for a Mag from a young military guy who's wife told him to get a cheaper hobby or a new wife.
I played with the gun for a couple years/upgrades to include: smart parts requlator four hole/valve V-cut and armson rifled barrel. The gun worked flawless.
Now here I am in the frigid of Utah, (looking like I just stepped out of a time machine with my stainless braided lines on my Whipering Death remote/expansion chamber) trying to fiqure out why the gun chronied at 295 eight out of ten times inside and outside i can't get it to stay even two out of two @ 24 degree weather. Any input would be appriciated.
'Cept to tell me to put in new seals, that was #1.
D.

Ignore the same post on meet and greet. Sorry

[Coralis]

CO2 or HPA ?

[automag from okinawa]

CO2 or HPA ?

20 oz. Co2 w/ expansion at the bottle inline filter just before the valve body.

[Storminnorman]

co2 and mags in the winter don't mix. I couldn't even get mine to fire in under 30 degrees with co2 back in the day. I would always rent a nitro tank from the field I went to to get my marker to work properly.

[Storminnorman]

Automags are famous for their liquid CO2 problems and poor performance in cold weather. What follows is a little discussion on liquid CO2 and your Automag.

* How can I tell if liquid is getting into my 'Mag?


If your gun is shooting hot (that is, at higher than expected velocities), is emitting CO2 clouds out the barrel, functioning erratically, or stops working altogether, there is a possibility that these problems are being caused by liquid CO2 in the system.
* What happens to my gun when liquid gets in?


Your Automag's internal operation is dependent on a gas regulator delivering gas CO2 to the valve body at a certain pressure. When liquid enters the system it enters at, say 400 PSI, then evaporates or partially evaporates inside the gun, it might increase in pressure to, say 800 PSI. This causes hot shots and erratic operation of the gun's internals.

Expanding and evaporating gases have a tendency to cool materials they come in contact with. When this happens inside your 'Mag you will experience "lock ups" where the gun fails to function at all. Your gun can literally freeze.

The valve body of the 'Mag has many different seals and o-rings that can be damaged if they are frozen by liquid CO2. The introduction of liquid into the system may cause problems later on due to damage done to seals and o-rings.
* How can I keep liquid out of my 'Mag?


Now for the good news. There are several ways to keep liquid CO2 out of your 'Mag.

One obvious solution is to only play in warm weather, and to not shoot fast. This not always being practical, almost any of the liquid control accessories mentioned in the sections above will aid in preventing liquid from getting into your gun. Specifically anti-siphon bottles, remote setups, expansion chambers, and liquid control valves and filters.

A recent posting in rec.sport.paintball summarized these methods. It is included below:

"There is a ton of stuff that can be done to a Auto/MiniMAG
that can improve its winter performance ranging from the cheap
to the expensive. Just remember that automags are sensitive to
liquid, thus, in cold weather its easier for the valve to
'freeze' up in cold weather. Below is a list of things my
teamates use (we live in MAINE, gets real cold).

Some real cheap things you could do is get a IN-LINE filter
$15,they reduce winter freeze up a little bit. Also, a verticle
C/A adapter keeps liquid out rather well $10. But for true cold
winter play, you need either an expansion chamber or a remote
(or both). I have seen expansion units from Taso, Proline, and
Direct Connect for around $30, and I have never seen an automag
freeze up with these. The Air American units are SWEET, they
will give you at lease 20% more shots than the cheeper
expansion units, but the prices are around $130 - $155, I don't
think this is worth the price, since the others work just
fine. If you really want the Air America unit, buy it from
SMart Parts, and they will throw in a remote system and
disconnect for $105 (nice). The Guantlet from Smart Parts works
very much like the LIQUID CONTROL VALVE, but I haven't seen one
(I think they are around $150). If you have an OLD 3.5oz laying
around, COOPER-T makes a special valve that will turn them into
an expasnsion unit, and from what I here, they give more shots
pers oz than the Air America units (around $25).

If you have $100 bucks, go for the Smart Remote system. If
you have $40, go for the pro-line expansion system. If you have
only $5, buy one of those heating pads that hunters use to keep
there hands warm, and tape it to your valve (This really
works!). If you have nothing, rub your left hand quickly over
the valve to warm it up (I've seen people do this)"
--Nick Brassard ([email protected])

[Storminnorman]

The best thing I have ever bought for the sport of paintball has to be a a fiber wrapped nitro tank, and a scuba tank with a fill station. Scuba tanks can be filled at any diving shop or fire station so if you want to tinker at home or even play at a private field you always have air. Almost every field you go to now a days fills compressed air. Its cheaper, cleaner, consistent pressure(no more shoot down), and temperature does not affect it. I think I spent 100 bucks total on 2 scuba tanks(get them used at any dive shop), 25 bucks on a fill station and you get a fiber wrapped tank for under 100 used on the bst section on the forums.( just watch out for theses tanks http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1160672 ) . Compressed air is the way to go it will save you lots o headaches.

[automag from okinawa]

I am using an expansion chamber at the bottle, with a filter at the valve/regulator body. Oil that I am using is extreme rage (allegedly synthetic). how can I post a pic or link to one?

[spectre184]

I'm sure whne you were in Okinawa CO2 was just fine. When I was there TDY it was hotter than you no what plus the humidty.

Best thing to do is run bottom line and buy you a high out put HPA tank. High out is 850+ psi.

You wont need CO2 filter and you can take it off.

[automag from okinawa]

I fiqured how to put the pics in the original post. is HPA the same as nitrogen setups?
I am a little confused about the whole HPA thing. I was apble to shoot about 1300 balls out of a 20 oz CO2.
Who were you with in OKI. I was with Det 35 or SCP. Yhe mini Depot behind the red cross bldg.


I'm sure whne you were in Okinawa CO2 was just fine. When I was there TDY it was hotter than you no what plus the humidty.

Best thing to do is run bottom line and buy you a high out put HPA tank. High out is 850+ psi.

You wont need CO2 filter and you can take it off.

[spectre184]

Who were you with in OKI.

YGPM on about this :ninja:

HPA tanks either use nitro or compressed air.

Field I play at has free air fills so I've never kept track of #shots per 1k PSI :tard:

[druid]

1. Take the foregrip off the Mag.
2. Install the X-Chamber into that.
3. Add a bottom line kit.
---That's an ASA for the grip and a length of s/s line to bottom of the X-Chamber.
4. In your VA above the X-Chamber, install your filter.
5. Install another s/s line from the filter to the valve.

All fitting ends get Teflon tape as a seal.

It's obvious you run the CO2 on the remote line. Get an asa-to-fill nipple quick disconnect adapter and connect your remote to that...or run an antisiphonned bottle right into the asa on the grip.

...but your better choice is to get HPA. Any high pressure output system will do. AA, Crossfire, PMI, GuerrillaAir...any tank that's got a HP reg on it.

You may also want to make sure it's a bigger bottle...68/4500 or larger. I use an 88/45 and a 114/45 so I can go all day without needing constant fills (renegade field). You can refill with a scuba tank (to 3000 psi) if you do alot more shooting than I do (about a case a day).

[automag from okinawa]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3/Sednal/DSCF0358.jpg
So what gain will I get from cold weather play by putting all this extra stuff back on the gun.
Back in the subtropics, I actually experimented with all the lines, hoses, elbows and rest of the things I lost along the way. I actually tried using both expanion chambers, one on the gun, one off the bottle. The setup in the first pic was the most efficient.

I will probably make the jump to compressed air. I appriciate the advice on the tanks.

I like my foregrip, it suits my style of play and I made it myself :p

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1. Take the foregrip off the Mag.
2. Install the X-Chamber into that.
3. Add a bottom line kit.
---That's an ASA for the grip and a length of s/s line to bottom of the X-Chamber.
4. In your VA above the X-Chamber, install your filter.
5. Install another s/s line from the filter to the valve.

All fitting ends get Teflon tape as a seal.

It's obvious you run the CO2 on the remote line. Get an asa-to-fill nipple quick disconnect adapter and connect your remote to that...or run an antisiphonned bottle right into the asa on the grip.

...but your better choice is to get HPA. Any high pressure output system will do. AA, Crossfire, PMI, GuerrillaAir...any tank that's got a HP reg on it.

You may also want to make sure it's a bigger bottle...68/4500 or larger. I use an 88/45 and a 114/45 so I can go all day without needing constant fills (renegade field). You can refill with a scuba tank (to 3000 psi) if you do alot more shooting than I do (about a case a day).

[secretweaponevan]

If you want to play reliably with a mag in sub 40 degree F weather, you will need an HPA tank.

CO2 converting to a gas is temperature and pressure sensitive. At low temperatures, CO2 will not expand into a gas or achieve the minimum pressure (~450psi) needed for the marker to work. As a result, you will be running low pressure liquid into your mag which won't work.

HPA stands for High Pressure Air. Since air on earth is 78% nitrogen, either nitrogen or compressed air will work in an HPA tank (compressed air is by far the most commonly used) and some people use the two interchangeably when describing tanks. IIRC when Tom Kaye (the automag's inventor) introduced HPA tanks, he used nitrogen as it was easier to get than compressed air at 3000 psi.

[Jaan]

I did everything to make my 'Mag shoot good in the cold back in the day, anti syphon tube, expansion chamber etc. None of it worked that well at below 45*.

Get an HPA tank and you'll be happy :D

[automag from okinawa]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3/Sednal/wintersetup.jpg

Until I can go/afford the HPA route, do any you Northern guys think this setup will help?
I've read as many of the cold weather articles as I can find.
The original concept for the expansion chamber at the bottle was great in humid Okinawa, Plus I alway's disliked all the back and forth s/s lines, looked to Frankenstien for my tastes.
Thanks again all.
Oh yea, I hail from buffalo, but back then we just shot BB gun's at each other.


"You'll shoot your Eye out!" :shooting:
Merry X-mas

[Coralis]

Well that should help alot with the cold weather performance, though 24 degrees is quite cold for CO2.

[Sumthinwicked]

to be honest take the one at the tank off no need i live in ct yea it gets cold here all winter long usually well not this year LOL but the one at the tank is useless the one expansion chamber should be enough to use co2 the line if you dislike it lose it thats a preferance i dont partake in just uses up more of your gas and btw for 50 and under you can get a steel 47 cubic in 3000 psi tank check ebay gl man

[spectre184]

I have a chrome gas grip thru I'll sell cheap. Send me a PM if your interetsed. Did you get my reply?

[automag from okinawa]

So, what do you guy's think? If I only run the one expansion, does it make a difference if it's closer to the gun or the tank. Closer to the tank was a great set up in the hot and humid.
I am so glad that paint is no longer $110 a case.
Also, any opinions on the armson barrel? I always liked the way it shot, was better than the stock and crown point, which by the way ended up on the Icon Z1 that my son is using and has no cold weather problems.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3/Sednal/liquiddiet2.jpg

[okiTony]

Mensore!!!! Just a shout out from the rock.... I'm in Oki and been here for about 15 years. Trust me AO he is not kidding when he said HOT and HUMID... I love it!!! Anyway, Merry Christmas!! :cheers:

Oh yea, get a HPA tank.... best cure for your mag!!!

[Coralis]

which by the way ended up on the Icon Z1 that my son is using and has no cold weather problems. Thats because the icon is designed to run off liquid CO2 , it is one of the few designed that way.

[automag from okinawa]

Yea, I knew the deal with Icon. It wasn't used much in the subtropics. You should have seen all the elite's at the paintball store look at me funny when I told them I needed them to make me a syphon tank. I had one guy who claimed twenty years playing time tell me that I wanted an anti-syphon tank and that nothing uses a syphon. I said " just make it."
Anway, its built like a tank and it's a good starter gun for my teenager. 'nuff about that.

[pump]

well from what AGD tech service told me when i called if you run an expansion chamber to a remote line the pressure will just compress the CO2 vapor back into liquid, defeating the purpose of the expansion chamber

also from the Ravi Chopra site he or a friend tried a reg to expansion chamber to the Mag with great results, might be worth a try


or you could gut the mag and use a palmers stabalizer


or you could try and find black magic seals or other CO2 loving seals and swap them out in your mag


i know a place that has some BM seals and i was gonna turn them to fit in my mag to see if it helps any.....something worth experimenting on i think

[classic68]

I used to play up in Ohio in the cold. I ran it much like you are talking about. I had a remote bottle to an expansion chamber screwed into the bottom air adapter. I used to wear my jacket so that the bottle on my back was tucked up inside. I also ran my line through my jacket sleeve to the gun. This allowed my body heat to help out. I used the expansion chamber as a front grip which allowed my hand to heat it up (gloves on). This helped a bunch but I still had to watch my rate of fire or I would freeze up the valve. I am running this set up right now but I live in South Carolina and it doesn't get to cold here.

Classic68