Barrel kits..the purpose?

[lidocaine]

Hello Automags.org!

I have been wondering for quite some time how barrel kits work.
What is the purpose of having one half of your barrel being the correct bore size and the other half totally off?Are these kits effective at all?
Since I have never used one, a barrel kit is basically one main back piece that threads into your gun and has threads for you to screw a correct "paint to barrel matched" tip into the tip of your back piece, right?
Sorry for my ignorance on the subject.

,Lidocaine

[craltal]

The general principal is that if you start the ball properly oriented it will fly straighter. To this end the ball flies through a "sizer" right after the breech and then continues the rest of the way down the barrel. Sizers can be an insert that fits into a barrel back (like a freak or scepter), a back that is machined to a specific size (like a hammerhead, kaner, or matchstick, etc)
Or you can use multiple single bore barrels.

Everybody has an opinion as to how well they work, but the biggest factor is going to be how good the paint you use is.

As for how well they work, MANN did a test over the summer that you can read about here:
http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=212077

[warpig13]

As for how well they work, MANN did a test over the summer that you can read about here:
http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=212077

What a life that man leads.

[Lohman446]

The purpose of a barrel kit is to make its manufacturer money.

In theory a shorter control bore can result in more consistent velocities - and thus accuracy. Its easier to sight down a longer barrel and it allows porting in the non-control surface area of the bore to get rid of some sound signature. However, so does a two piece barrel.

In theory you can size your paint to your barrel - however, paint in a package varies to some degree, so you have to oversize. In some blow forward markers (autocockers) your barrel had to be the right size to act as a detent, to keep the ball from rolling out. Since most modern markers use detents the barrel does not serve this function.

Can accuracy be gained by using the right size paint / barrel? Yeh, sure it can. However any accuracy gain is minimal and is easily overcome by the size / shape / weight of the projectile you are firing in paintball and its problems inherent to it.

In short - buy yourself a good two piece barrel of a reasonably bore size (I shoot .689 and .691 depending on what I happen to have around). Go larger than your paint so the occassionaly large ball does not get caught and blown apart in your barrel. Don't worry about the people next to you claiming to size paint - in short its a waste of time.

Besides, in today's accuracy by volume game they hold no advantage over you. The fact of the matter is, due to the aerodynamic tendencies of a paintball they do not hold any advantage (not even accuracy) over you after the ball has been in the air for any amount of time anyways.

[going_home]

Besides, in today's accuracy by volume game they hold no advantage over you. The fact of the matter is, due to the aerodynamic tendencies of a paintball they do not hold any advantage (not even accuracy) over you after the ball has been in the air for any amount of time anyways.

Not exactly true.
Bore size makes a huge difference with pumps especially.
.686 or .687 is all I use whether its my Series 6, Micromag, or Viking .

I find its better accuracy with all of them and I get no roll outs with the S6 with the smaller bores.
;)

[jenarelJAM]

Needed for any gun without detents to prevent rollouts...

That's about it.

[drg]

Matching paint also has a huge effect on efficiency -- particularly in high efficiency guns.

[snoopay700]

In some blow forward markers (autocockers)
Since when do cockers work like mags? Well i guess that explains the rivalry :rolleyes: [/sarcasm]

I think you meant closed bolt.

I've always wondered why they have that second large stage where the ball doesn't touch the sides or whatever, i mean it would make more sense to me to have longer barrels of different bore sizes if you were going to do that.

[drg]

The 2nd stage basically acts like a long muzzle brake, vents the gas slowly and reduces sound signature. I think the idea is you lose propulsion in that stage anyway, so you open up the bore so as not to put any friction on the ball in that area of the barrel.

[snoopay700]

The 2nd stage basically acts like a long muzzle brake, vents the gas slowly and reduces sound signature. I think the idea is you lose propulsion in that stage anyway, so you open up the bore so as not to put any friction on the ball in that area of the barrel.
I guess i'm weird cause i don't think that that's a good reason and think it would be better to have 5 ten inch barrels of different bore sizes if i were to go that route (though i never will most likely) rather than have 7+ inches of useless metal on the end of my gun. (well talking about those 14 inch barrels where like have is the controlled bore, i don't know about the measurements).

[drg]

That's more or less the theory behind the Lapco barrel kit, and Lapco barrels in general, which makes them some of the more efficient barrels around. Tradeoff is they are loud.

The extra ported length is not quite useless, it does suppress sound and it also gives you length for working bunkers.

It is also in general cheaper to have a control bore of a shorter length, than to have many full-length barrels, from a manufacturer's standpoint (which ultimately translates to consumer costs).

[Lohman446]

I guess i'm weird cause i don't think that that's a good reason and think it would be better to have 5 ten inch barrels of different bore sizes if i were to go that route (though i never will most likely) rather than have 7+ inches of useless metal on the end of my gun. (well talking about those 14 inch barrels where like have is the controlled bore, i don't know about the measurements).

Hehe, yeh I did mean closed bolt - one of those days.

Remember though that TKs testing showed that shorter barrels (around 5 inches) were more consistant than longer barrels. However, having played with just the back half of barrels on during rain I can tell you its harder to sight down that short of a barrel.

[turbo chicken]

here's some good information/discussion ...
http://z1.invisionfree.com/forums/StockClassPaintball/index.php?showtopic=26006


and someone mentioned pumps ... there was another recent thread about someone testing shots per 12gram with oversized insert, best fit insert, and a too small insert...

The count was more with the "Best fit insert" .... but your talking a small amount of shots ... that matters to a pump player.

I don't think it's all that important with a semi as your are shooting a group of shots anyways ... so what if 2 out of 10 balls are 5 or even 10 FPS lower ... you got more on the way...

but with a pump ... precision counts ... especially with a stockclass gun ... there's no room for a huge variation in FPS ...

too loose or too tight of a barrel to ball fit there will be more variations ... so you get is as close as you can to minimize the amount of variation you will have ...

besides a consistant FPS is only part of the equation to having good consistent ball delivery to the target ...

There is also the whole "matching the barrel to the gun" (as pointed out in the attached link) ... just another set of variables to consider for that whole logic ...

Hope my post was a little useful...

TC

[lidocaine]

"Since I have never used one, a barrel kit is basically one main back piece that threads into your gun and has threads for you to screw a correct "paint to barrel matched" tip into the tip of your back piece, right?"



I know it is to get a paint to barrel match,(having a barrel kit, or a correctly sized barrel) but how exactly are they made? is the above correct?Comments?

Thanks.

[Foxworthy]

That's more or less the theory behind the Lapco barrel kit, and Lapco barrels in general, which makes them some of the more efficient barrels around. Tradeoff is they are loud.

The extra ported length is not quite useless, it does suppress sound and it also gives you length for working bunkers.

It is also in general cheaper to have a control bore of a shorter length, than to have many full-length barrels, from a manufacturer's standpoint (which ultimately translates to consumer costs).

Though the lucky Unitech barrels used a full length barrels of different bores that threaded into a back used to fit it to the marker only. Though they didn't do too well In Mann's test I think, personally I love the barrels. A bit hard to get now a days though.

[snoopay700]

Hehe, yeh I did mean closed bolt - one of those days.

Remember though that TKs testing showed that shorter barrels (around 5 inches) were more consistant than longer barrels. However, having played with just the back half of barrels on during rain I can tell you its harder to sight down that short of a barrel.
Yeah, i know what you mean about those days.

Anyway, i haven't had a problem with sighting down a shorter barrel, i've been as accurate as with a longer barrel. Maybe it has something to do with my RT having one long uniform body and an offset feed that makes it easier, i don't know.

And as for the lapco ones being louder, other barrels aren't much quieter, you still hear where the shot came from, that's why i've never cared about making my marker quiet. Sounds like lapco is the way to go if i get a cocker though. And as for working bunkers there's no longer any airball fields around where i live, and i've never been a fan of that anyway.

[JAM]

"Since I have never used one, a barrel kit is basically one main back piece that threads into your gun and has threads for you to screw a correct "paint to barrel matched" tip into the tip of your back piece, right?"



I know it is to get a paint to barrel match,(having a barrel kit, or a correctly sized barrel) but how exactly are they made? is the above correct?Comments?

Thanks.


You've got it reversed-

The rear piece is the "sized" piece that you [theoretically] match to your paint. the front tip is a larger bore and generally only: 1. quiets down the shot (by venting gas), 2. provides a natural line to sight along, and 3. gives you a tool to push through brush or around bunkers.

[drg]

And as for the lapco ones being louder, other barrels aren't much quieter

Sorry, that's just false.

[snoopay700]

Sorry, that's just false.
My point was that they still give away your position, i've heard my friend shooting with a two stage where the second stage was larger and i still heard where he was. I mean wow, it's quieter, but people can still hear you clearly.

[drg]

It varies depending on the specific barrel and gun, check Mann's barrel test for some quick numbers. You can see that just being a 2-piece kit doesn't mean the barrel will be terribly quiet, it's overall design. Length does play a role too. From his numbers you can see that depending on the barrel on his Xmag, you can get up to a 15 decibel difference out the front, that's a HUGE difference (up to 4x subjective "loudness").

While you can definitely hear ALL guns within a certain distance, how far that sound carries varies greatly.

I believe poppet valve guns experience the most difference in report depending on barrel, or at least subjectively, you can hear the difference most clearly. The 'crack' of the poppet valve is quite different from the spool-valve puff.

Now there is debate as to whether it's a big deal to hear the barrel sound or not hear it (sometimes it is good to attract attention when you need to), but that's another story for another thread.

Speaking for myself, I have definitely picked out positions on the field and identified guns/players as well as the direction they are facing based on barrel report, but I have noticed that this is easier, especially the directionality part, with louder guns.

It's not something you can rely completely on, but it comes into play from time to time. On the other side of the equation, I have an ULTRA quiet sniper that I catch a lot of people off guard with, especially on woods fields. People don't know to duck since they can't hear the report.

[snoopay700]

It varies depending on the specific barrel and gun, check Mann's barrel test for some quick numbers. You can see that just being a 2-piece kit doesn't mean the barrel will be terribly quiet, it's overall design. Length does play a role too. From his numbers you can see that depending on the barrel on his Xmag, you can get up to a 15 decibel difference out the front, that's a HUGE difference (up to 4x subjective "loudness").

While you can definitely hear ALL guns within a certain distance, how far that sound carries varies greatly.

I believe poppet valve guns experience the most difference in report depending on barrel, or at least subjectively, you can hear the difference most clearly. The 'crack' of the poppet valve is quite different from the spool-valve puff.

Now there is debate as to whether it's a big deal to hear the barrel sound or not hear it (sometimes it is good to attract attention when you need to), but that's another story for another thread.

Speaking for myself, I have definitely picked out positions on the field and identified guns/players as well as the direction they are facing based on barrel report, but I have noticed that this is easier, especially the directionality part, with louder guns.

It's not something you can rely completely on, but it comes into play from time to time. On the other side of the equation, I have an ULTRA quiet sniper that I catch a lot of people off guard with, especially on woods fields. People don't know to duck since they can't hear the report.
Ok, i see what you are saying, he was using a cocker, so maybe that had something to do with it (it was a mech at the time).

I definitely see what you're saying though, and i can see it being much more important in woodsball. I'm the type of guy that sneaks up and then shoot them or i'm shooting across the field where they know where i am, so in both situations how quiet my gun is hasn't mattered, though there'll probbly be a day where i wish i had a quieter gun.

[lidocaine]

You've got it reversed-

The rear piece is the "sized" piece that you [theoretically] match to your paint. the front tip is a larger bore and generally only: 1. quiets down the shot (by venting gas), 2. provides a natural line to sight along, and 3. gives you a tool to push through brush or around bunkers.
Thanks for answering my question and not arguing in my thread.
So does the tip of the back piece have threads in it where you can thread a tip into it?
What are some nice cocker threaded barrel kits out there for not too too much moo-lah?

Thanks alot guys, I think im getting somewhere! :)

[drg]

Yes there is threading between the two halves.
This threading is usually proprietary.

There are tons of kits out there, if you want to save money look for used.
Many kits are quite similar but there are a couple distinctions ... do you want solid backs or inserts like the Freak? Do you want long or short backs? Do you want a particular material?

[lidocaine]

What do you mean "solid" backs?
Whats the difference between long or short, other than being long..or short?any performance advantages to either?
And no particular material, something durable, doesnt have to be too light, but not a deadweight either.

Thanks

[warbeak2099]

The first 6-8" is what needs to have a good, consistent bore. Anything else past that can be a different size and not effect accuracy.

[lidocaine]

so basically a longer control bore is better?

[drg]

In general yes, for various reasons.

[Miscue]

Hello Automags.org!

I have been wondering for quite some time how barrel kits work.
What is the purpose of having one half of your barrel being the correct bore size and the other half totally off?Are these kits effective at all?
Since I have never used one, a barrel kit is basically one main back piece that threads into your gun and has threads for you to screw a correct "paint to barrel matched" tip into the tip of your back piece, right?
Sorry for my ignorance on the subject.

,Lidocaine

They are designed to take your money.

[lidocaine]

Miscue, im sorry but that doesnt help me.

So you have a set of different backs, then do you actually thread a tip into the tip of the back? or does it just slide on?

Thanks!

[warbeak2099]

The fronts screw onto the backs.

[teufelhunden]

Check out Kaner kits, if they still make them/are available in BST.