Last Chance for Superbolts Update #3

[AGD]

SB owners,

We have examined, tested, theorized and tested to destruction superbolts all weekend. We think we have two different problems overlapping themselves. When this type of thing happens fixing one problem still makes it look like it's not right because the other problem keeps showing up.

The first problem was the overstressed plastic that boiling in hot water fixed by annealing. Since then we have not had an annealed bolt split down the side.

The second problem that continued to show up, was the end of the plastic tube breaking off in the first 500 shots. It seems that after 500 shots the bolts continue on with a normal life.

For any of you SB owners that have a low shot count bolt, we would like you to try the following fix. If it doesn't work we will be refunding everyone's money and putting the product on the back burner.

It appears that the wide front section of the plastic tube is catching on the bolt spring washer when it retracts after the shot. From our forensic evaluation of bolts that broke in the first few shots, they show scratch marks that end at the wide section and the crack. See the pic below.

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/sb_fix2.jpg


We believe that after 500 shots the washer wears down this edge and the problem goes away because there is not enough edge left to catch on. The fix should be fairly simple, just sand down the edge and make it a gradual transition.

You can see the edge in the pic below.

http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/sb_fix1.jpg

If any of you could sand this edge,shoot the gun and report back here, it would help save this product. If you have a bolt at AGD that is waiting for the update please let us know if you would like us to either send it to you or test fire it here first. We just don't want to send you what looks like a used sleeve when we told you we would replace it. IF there are any of you that are fed up waiting and you bought the bolt from us please email office@airgun.com and we will arrange for a refund. If you bought it from a dealer and want a refund you have to coordinate through them.

We are very optimistic that this will solve the problem but we need some numbers to know if it really is the problem we think it is.

Thank you for your cooperation, you all know how much I personally depend on you.

AGD

[clockworkmiller]

Very nice Tom. Im proud to be a member of AO.

Look at me gettin all patriotic over this. Keep up the amazing work.

[JanStah]

Why are the superbolts wider at the tip in the first place?

It seems obvious to me that something could repeatedly ride up on that ridge and cause enough stress over time to break it.


Why not just have them the same diameter all the way along like the old SS bolts?

Also, on the further issue of shelving the Superbolt idea if this doesnt work out; I beleive that in the past, AGD has been guilty of not creating products that customers want, but rather creating products that are BETTER. While this is admirable from an engineering standpoint, Better products do not necessarily a good business make. Your innovations, while leading the way in engineering and design, are not always what the customer wants.
However, The customers DO want the superbolts. Interchangeable bolts are something they're familar with. You can buy Delrin bolts for most other gun types. Its not too radical. Not very expensive. etc. etc.


I think it would be a mistake to shelve the superbolts for those reasons.

By all means get it fixed, working and reliable, but then start selling em and watch the cash roll in.

Good luck tom. Keep it up.

Jan.

[Dragoon]

I've already put 2000+ shots through my emag with SB. So I don't seem to have any problems with the bolt in terms of it splitting.

It does seem to brake paint on me though. They are not chops but in the barrel. What do you think of the idea posted by....I think it was Kila, about adding a foamie to the end of the SB and trimming it down so it's even with the end?

Thanks for listening to us.

Douglas

Edit:
Thanks Load.

[Load SM5]

Well Tom, accidentally, I'm your first tester. When I boiled my superbolt it swelled up and the sping would'nt move freely over the bolt. I had to sand down the end of the bolt so it would'nt catch, and the lip in question is'nt really even there anymore. There's only a slight bulge at the end of the bolt. I have nearly 1650 shots on my superbolt and it's still going strong. So far, the only wear is the wear I made with the sandpaper. I also polished off the sharp edges from my bolt spring. Hope this helps. If you need a pic of the bolt I'd be happy to send or post some.

And Dragoon - I have a homemade foamie superglued to the end of my bolt and had no breaks except for one of my own fault. Try a foamie out.

[Gambit1106]

Tom,

Should we worry about the sleeve becoming loose after we have boiled them? I myself have had this happen and have heard a few others mention this too. Any area for concern or type of correction? Otherwise I will be doing some sanding and shooting tonight. Would you like the test completed while dry firing or with paint? Thanks

Darren

[Load SM5]

Mine became loose enough to spin a bit but I could'nt pull it off. It never came off while firing. I put a few drop of glue at the base where the delrin meets the metal and it's been working fine.

[Minimag4me]

Tom,I dry fired my superbolt like 2-3000 times, no problems.

I boiled my superbolt but havent shot it yet so i will sand it a little and get back to you on wednesday or thursday

also what is a bolt spring washer?

[Lord Vader]

The bolt spring washer is the slight narrowing in the mainbody that allows the bolt to pass into the breach (sp?), but not the bolt spring, thus causing the bolt spring to recock the gun upon full compression of said spring (and the fact that all operating pressure was used in firing helps the bolt spring do it's job as well).

[Russ]

Huh? My Superbolt did not have the step near the end. Very odd. But then again, my SuperBolt hadn't broke.

Shouldn't they be the same diameter anyway? What is the advantage of the stepped design?

My insights in regards to the Delrin sleeve failure:

I believe that way too much heat is induced into the Delrin while it is being machined, which is what causes the brittleness, which leads to the failure. Annealing helps, but it would be better to not heat the Delrin up that much in the first place. Cutting speeds & feed rates of the machine tools need to be re-evaluated, along with the type of cutting tools being used, with focus on relief/clearance angles on the tooling. Coolant should also be utilized, if it isn't.

Another option would be to have the Delrin sleeves injection molded. I know molds aren't cheap, but in time they could pay for themselves.

I'll be quiet now.

[Aztec]

Tom-

I have been following this thread and others like it for some time now. I've modified the SB as you suggested, and I dry fired 1100 shots last night with my Emag. No problems whatsoever. This was very interesting to me as this is the first time I have used it. It changes the character of the gun completely. I like it. :-) I noticed that there is very little play between the SB and the bolt spring, where as the stock bolt had more play. Prior to sanding, the nose of the SB would catch a bit on the boltspring as I pressed down on it (with the spring on the bolt). Could this be a factor as well? If so, then the bolt may be forced to 'center itself' before passing through the end of the bolt spring. That would definately stress the delrin sleeve considerably. At any rate, after sanding the SB, it had similar spring to bolt clearance as the stock bolt. I think the SB will work fine provided the nose of the bolt is sanded, and shaved down to spec. Perhaps the Super Bolts can be saved if they all recieved a similar 'shaving' before they left the shop, so to speak. Or even a new batch of resized sleeves?

Alex.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I've never used my SB yet..my gun's been out of commission for a while..but i boiled the sucker anyway and not the sleeve spins like crazy..but..i emailed Marcia and told her that i wanted to send it in..i'm willing to let Tom and the crack AGD Tech department shoot the hell out of it before they send it back..if that's what it takes..that's what it takes..and maybe they'll be nice to me and glue a foamie to the front of it too...

[soilent green]

my super bolt cracked just like the picture after aBOUT 1200 shots

[steveg]

Tom you might not of noticed it yet but you have already
solved the superbolt problem GET RID OF THE DELRIN SLEEVE.
the reason for the bump at the top of the sleeve is because
the body was turned down to clear the spring Right?
The bump at the end is the actual .68" diameter of the normal bolt
The spring is located concentrically at the washer inside
the body. On the bolt the spring is located by a slightly
larger diameter on the ss part.

when inside the breech and barrel the bolt is located by
the front of the bolt, and guided somewhat by the powertube.

the solution. take a normal bolt turn down the body as you
do for the superbolt but leave the end at the .68' diameter.
drill out the stem as you do for the superbolt
or make the stem out of hard anodized aluminum.(Assuming
you can find the correct brazing metal to join aluminum and
stainless)
The delrin does not remove weight it adds it,AS it is only there
to replicate the original steel bolt profile

So what do you think :cool:

[Minimag4me]

uh Tom i just checked and my superbolt has no edge like you said and it is completely even throughout. It slides all through the body easily, should i still sand it down a little?

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by steveg
Tom you might not of noticed it yet but you have already
solved the superbolt problem GET RID OF THE DELRIN SLEEVE.
the reason for the bump at the top of the sleeve is because
the body was turned down to clear the spring Right?
The bump at the end is the actual .68" diameter of the normal bolt
The spring is located concentrically at the washer inside
the body. On the bolt the spring is located by a slightly
larger diameter on the ss part.

when inside the breech and barrel the bolt is located by
the front of the bolt, and guided somewhat by the powertube.

the solution. take a normal bolt turn down the body as you
do for the superbolt but leave the end at the .68' diameter.
drill out the stem as you do for the superbolt
or make the stem out of hard anodized aluminum.(Assuming
you can find the correct brazing metal to join aluminum and
stainless)
The delrin does not remove weight it adds it,AS it is only there
to replicate the original steel bolt profile

So what do you think :cool:


So when the next ball rides along the top of the bolt it will fall into that void created by the differing diameters and get chopped by the bolt retuning to cocked position.

[Paintchucker]

Well, last night, I cooked my bolt, and then sanded it done on the ridge as recommended. My sanding job was much ruffer than yours, but I got it back as smooth as possible. Today at lunch, I went to the paintball store and got some nitro for the tank. Tonight, I put in the superbolt and shot 500 shots. I was getting a little bolt stick on my emag at first. It was like I would pull trigger once and bolt would fire and kinda stick, then a second pull would release it and cock it again. It happened around shots 175-225, then stopped. I shot my 500 shots and stopped and checked the bolt. It seemed fine. When I put it back in, I changed barrels. The original was a Smart Parts Progressive, and the second one was a CP One Piece. The new one didn't have the bolt stick problem, so I just kept on firing. Around shot 1450, the gun began making a funny ringing sound when fired. I stopped and took it apart and discovered that the sleeve had come off in entirety and was lodged in the top of my barrel. I was firing with my condom on btw... I had read the posts about the sleeve being loose and needing gluing, but mine was still tight before I started. No chips or breaks or anything, and it looks like the delrin sleeve would slide right back on and glue on. I will call in the am and get an RMA# to send it back to you. Dangit, this bolt feels so good when it is working. I hope we can get these problems figured out. :(


Update: called Thursday afternoon and talked to Jon. RA#:86236 will be on its way back to AGD Friday!

[steveg]

Butterfingers I honestly didn't think about that,nice catch
aren't public forums great.
However how about the blowback ? It would lift the ball away
from the bolt. just a question of whether the bolt retracts
faster than the ball bounces back.
Of course if the ball does bounce back faster than the bolt
retracts, the ball would run into the bolt,and not into the breach,
that kind of calls into question the whole principle of powerfeed in the first place.
Warpfeed might be a problem though.
Besides the bump has already been introduced, its a
question of how extreme it can be.
Maybe it is a bad idea or maybe the beginning of a good one.

[AGD]

If you are having problems please RA the bolts back to us. We are remachining the sleeves now to reduce the bump.

Thanks for your cooperation,

AGD

[Lord Vader]

Tom,

If it isn't too much trouble, could you post a thread or notice to let us now when the superbolts are available in the online store again? Thanks.

[SGT FURY]

when i recieved my sb and tried to insert it into my main body it was too fat. i had read something about a problem that could be fixed by sanding it down. it was refering to the ones that was too long. so i assumed that the bad sb's were all too fat before checking ao i sanded the tip(outside diameter) with 300 or 400 grit sand paper until it fit snug with no resistance. i shot several dry shots before i ever tried it with paint no problems when i tried it with paint i was chopping with my warp and e mag. i checked ao and relized my velocity needed to be readjusted. i was shooting 353fps after i re adjusted i have not broken a ball in my e mag or classic mag. i have played three weekends in a row with no breaks. approx 2500 balls and atleast that many more dry fires.hope this helps i would be glad to answer any more questions you may have .

[oneshot]

boiled bolt , then sanded it,

550 dry fired shots , and a hopper with paint, no sign of any cracking

hope this helps :D

[headcase]

I got my SB back from AGD with all the updates(foamy, sanded, I can only assume it was boiled) I dry fired around 2000 times and the bolt looks fine still, also fired some pro-ball that has been open for 2 weeks and had a broken ball or two in the bag, without a single brake or chop.

[Paintchucker]

Well, I got home today from work, but after 7:00pm, and found a UPS sticker on my back door. I have a package from Airgun, but unfortunately, since I didn't call them until after 7:00pm, I can't pick up the package until Tuesday. It is my superbolt back from AGD. What has been done to them? Has anyone besides headcase gotten theirs returned? What are the results? I am chomping at the bit here!!! :)

[DA_DMX]

how do you make a foamie and put it on?

[sifu01]

HEY! Im excited and waiting to get my superbolt. I was just wondering if AGD could throw us a bone here and give us an update!!!! PLEASE!

[TITAN]

Tom- if you eventually cant find a solution to fix the delrin sleeve I would like to suggest using Ertalyte or Nyube which are both frictionless plastic but are supposedly much more stronger and durable than delrin.

[MicroB]

Recieved new machined, boiled, and foamied bolt for AGD. Did not have a chance to put it through its paces until super bowl sunday. Played a couple of practice sets for the best in the west tourney this weekend. Before I post problem my gun specs: Micro Mag RT vert feed with Halo;Dye Boomy(.687) and Lapco big stot; 3000 flatline set to 750psi output; chrono'd 292,295,293,292; Brand new box of Marbs and RP premium. Bolt has no recoil, but breaks paint! The premium was the worst, I could not pull the trigger without breaking a ball( yes it was new paint not something in the shop for three weeks). Sqeegied clean and repeated process. Pulled valve out to see if paint shell was stuck on spring or in breach, nothing there. Switched to Marbs and it was alot better, but I broke one out of every 100 balls. Didn't matter which barrel was used. Replaced stock bolt and did not have a problem with marb or premium the rest of the day :mad:. I really like the superbolt but, it breaks to much paint. NO I'M NOT SHORT STROKING, well I did once but the bolt was so light(more dwell) that allowed it to double feed instead of chop :D .

Thx, B

[AGD]

Micro,

If you are double feeding at any time you have a problem with your nubbins. Chopping is always a feed issue not a bolt issue. Breaking down the barrel is a bolt or breach issue.

AGD

[LaW]

So how has the reaction to the superbolt fix been with people your in contact with play with them TK? Just wondering if breaking is down or what not?

[Minimag4me]

will there be new powertube tips made specifically for the milled power piston of the superbolt?