Would you still buy AGD products if.... [Archive]

RavishingEddie

01-22-2008, 12:04 PM

If believe that if Tom Kaye disappeared great minds here in AO would continue to help with ideas on how to improve designs, which is what I think Tom wants.
Yes I would still continue to buy from AGD.

If AGD went to China, it would mean that they are mass producing. Materials as well as quality would have to be cheaper, thus they would be just another over priced cheap fast gun manufacturer. Even well known manufacturers with quality guns like Planet Eclipse Egos lose about 50% of their guns value in only a year.
I would not buy from AGD.

behemoth

01-22-2008, 12:13 PM

NO WAI.

US OF A + TOM KAYE FTW.

Haiguyz.

Chrishew09

01-22-2008, 12:14 PM

I would depend on the quality of the product, you can get quality out of china but you just need to have a good manufacturing process and hold them to it.
So Yes, if the quality is there.

Having TK leave AGD for good probably wouldn't effect my decision to buy from AGD as long as my above statement is hold true.

Dawg047

01-22-2008, 12:22 PM

Hmm, If AGD went to China. Well, like others stated, its all about the quality. Quality can come from China, it is just a matter of harvesting it. So yes, if you kept the same quality that AGD puts into these products now, I would buy if......see next pragraph.

Now, Tom Kaye, he is a different story. Tom brings some of the best innovation and ideas along with laboratory tested information that this sport has ever seen. He is truly a brilliant mind. I think that if he gave his approval over what came out of China, I would buy %100. There, that answers the top.-Dawg047

robnix

01-22-2008, 12:38 PM

1) AGD products were made in China or Taiwan would you still buy them

Yes, I don't buy AGD gear because it's made in America, I buy it because I know that that the company sticks to it's guns on quality regardless of who does the work for them. (no pun intended.)

2)If Tom Kay was in NO WAY associated with AGD would that matter?

No.

Here's a question:

Say AGD moved production offshore, but kept the quality the same, and SP moved production back to the US, but kept their lack of quality the same, which company would you buy from?

RogueFactor

01-22-2008, 01:09 PM

Ive worked for 2 companies that manufacture in China. Quality was always an issue. There is little cost benefit in having parts made in smaller quantities overseas that require strict quality adherence.

Also, once the consumer knows a product is made in China, they expect it to be cheaper. Adhering to quality isnt cheap, whether thats here in the US or overseas. Maybe in 10-20 years China will evolve to be known(like Japan now is) to produce quality parts, as for now...they are known for cheap.

Here's a question:

Say AGD moved production offshore, but kept the quality the same, and SP moved production back to the US, but kept their lack of quality the same, which company would you buy from?

If the prices remained the same, I wouldnt buy either of them. If I wanted an overseas made item, I have plenty already to choose from.

The only benefit to moving overseas is cheaper manufacturing. The only way to do it cheaper is with cheaper labor, or cheaper production methods. There isnt a cheaper production method to making these parts. So the only way to get these thigns cheaper is to either increase volume, or cut corners. High volume is something AGD has not had in many years(if ever).

Cheap labor on automated CNC machining centers adds little cost savings. Thats why the goods China is largely known for making are manual labor goods(textiles that require sewing, any sort of intensive labor assembly, etc).

Chaos_Theory!

01-22-2008, 02:00 PM

If the parts being made elsewhere cut down in the insane costs of some mag parts i wouldnt mind.

TK being involved really doesnt matter at all unless your saying he wasnt ever associted with AGD. In that case there wouldnt be an AGD/the products the company has now.

going_home

01-22-2008, 02:33 PM

When I bought from AGD the first time I didnt have a clue who Tom was.
And its probably that way for the majority of first time mag owners.
So I doubt that would matter one bit.

Honestly I have no idea where AGD parts are made right now so....
I dont think China is an issue at all, what the issue is, is quality, and AGD is that without question.

:D

Mongoose

01-22-2008, 02:46 PM

going_home

01-22-2008, 02:51 PM

name one quality item made in china

Ford ..... oh wait ..... thats found on road dead.
Or was it funny old rebuilt Dodge ?

:rofl:

joelbird

01-22-2008, 03:01 PM

1) No i would not buy anything new for the guns i have but would look for the old parts and the parts made by forum members. ( mother and father are both steel mill workers, plus 4 other family members) it would be wrong for me.

2) Tom Kaye is the man that I honestly did not know was behind this 10 years ago. just like many great inventions i use everyday. i can't name who made them but you can never take the credit away from them.

as for the ford thing Ford Econoline 95% USA USA

here is some research ( NOT that I want to start a war or debate! )

http://forums.subdriven.com/zerothread?id=3079813

robnix

01-22-2008, 03:02 PM

name one quality item made in china

Call Apple or Lenovo, they'll give you a list.

robnix

01-22-2008, 03:03 PM

Ive worked for 2 companies that manufacture in China. Quality was always an issue. There is little cost benefit in having parts made in smaller quantities overseas that require strict quality adherence.

Also, once the consumer knows a product is made in China, they expect it to be cheaper. Adhering to quality isnt cheap, whether thats here in the US or overseas. Maybe in 10-20 years China will evolve to be known(like Japan now is) to produce quality parts, as for now...they are known for cheap.

If the prices remained the same, I wouldnt buy either of them. If I wanted an overseas made item, I have plenty already to choose from.

The only benefit to moving overseas is cheaper manufacturing. The only way to do it cheaper is with cheaper labor, or cheaper production methods. There isnt a cheaper production method to making these parts. So the only way to get these thigns cheaper is to either increase volume, or cut corners. High volume is something AGD has not had in many years(if ever).

Cheap labor on automated CNC machining centers adds little cost savings. Thats why the goods China is largely known for making are manual labor goods(textiles that require sewing, any sort of intensive labor assembly, etc).

Informative, but not quite the answer I was looking for.

nathanjones008

01-22-2008, 03:11 PM

I would by from AGD if it was made in china. WHy? Because AGD Is not doing so good right now. That would drastically decrease the prices and make the products more affordable to the ones who can not afford a new mag.

One more note. As long as there is not lead the parts! :rofl:

Bulldog

01-22-2008, 03:13 PM

Informative, but not quite the answer I was looking for.

I think it's because the situation you are suggesting isn't really likely, or even possible. You just can't get a part made to the standards it would need to be in China.

robnix

01-22-2008, 03:18 PM

I think it's because the situation you are suggesting isn't really likely, or even possible. You just can't get a part made to the standards it would need to be in China.

The thread started off with a speculative question, so I add another one, Whether or not you can it done wasn't relevant to what I wanted to know.

Zone Drifter

01-22-2008, 03:24 PM

1) no, i wouldnt buy an agd gun made in china, simply because the more we have other countries make our products, the more our economy will go in the toilet. People don't realize this, all they think about is making more money for themselves and not employing people, training them and giving them respectable jobs. Yes, it's cheaper to have china make stuff, but what you pay for is what you get, cheap stuff. Not to mention we should employ our own citizens so that we have jobs and keep our own country fed within financially.

2) Tom is the man, of course, but there are many more intelligent people in the paintball industry that can continue to uphold the innovation and quality that he has. In the name of all that is good, i believe that AGD will continue to be the quality leader in paintball markers. Tom is merely the founder, but companies can continue to do things right, so long as nobody else tries to change something for the worse.

Bulldog

01-22-2008, 03:27 PM

The thread started off with a speculative question, so I add another one, Whether or not you can it done wasn't relevant to what I wanted to know.

Well, then I think the answer is rather obvious. At least for me it is. Go with whoever is producing the better quality part.

Pacifist_Farmer

01-22-2008, 04:03 PM

1. Yes

2. No (I will need parts to keep my AGD markers running, and besides isn't he already out of the picture, for all intents and purposes?)

As others have pointed out, it does not matter where a product is manufactured, if the manufacturing stream is flawed you will get bad parts.

Pacifist_Farmer

01-22-2008, 04:08 PM

1) no, i wouldnt buy an agd gun made in china, simply because the more we have other countries make our products, the more our economy will go in the toilet. People don't realize this, all they think about is making more money for themselves and not employing people, training them and giving them respectable jobs. Yes, it's cheaper to have china make stuff, but what you pay for is what you get, cheap stuff. Not to mention we should employ our own citizens so that we have jobs and keep our own country fed within financially.

We do live in a free market capitalistic society last time I checked, perhaps it is the responsibility of the individual to earn a living, and not the collective.

If you hadn't noticed even when our economy was good, Americans took advantage of one another and put it back in the toilet.

manike

01-22-2008, 05:01 PM

name one quality item made in china

To develop the discussion...

Please name quality items in paintball and where you think they are made...

Rogue is 100% correct and that quality isn't cheap or easy where ever you make your products.

You can get quality out of China or anywhere overseas but you have to work just as hard at it, if not harder, than to get the same quality out of the USA or Europe. Sometimes it's cost effective, sometimes it isn't.

68magOwner

01-22-2008, 05:33 PM

yes, it would be super cheap, and probably just as good.

robnix

01-22-2008, 05:39 PM

To develop the discussion...

Please name quality items in paintball and where you think they are made...

Rogue is 100% correct and that quality isn't cheap or easy where ever you make your products.

You can get quality out of China or anywhere overseas but you have to work just as hard at it, if not harder, than to get the same quality out of the USA or Europe. Sometimes it's cost effective, sometimes it isn't.

What if AGD products were made in Australia? At least we could chant:

AUSSIE! AUSSIE! AUSSIE! OI! OI! OI! before each round.

Zone Drifter

01-22-2008, 05:43 PM

We do live in a free market capitalistic society last time I checked, perhaps it is the responsibility of the individual to earn a living, and not the collective.

If you hadn't noticed even when our economy was good, Americans took advantage of one another and put it back in the toilet.Three words from that: Responsibility and took advantage. That IS the sad truth, that because of competition through the market, things go that way. So there is really no way to argue it, it's all about the one vs. the whole, and everyone would rather make more than share it with someone else.

lidocaine

01-22-2008, 07:10 PM

If automags were made in China I would not purchase them.end of story.

ProblemKinder

01-22-2008, 07:31 PM

i have 3 mags already. as long as the 8 year old chinese kids can figure out how to make o-rings and bottle oil i think i'll be ok.

maniacmechanic

01-22-2008, 08:02 PM

no I would not buy a chinese ADG product
The sad fact is even if they started making parts overseas WE still would not see lower costs

RogueFactor

01-22-2008, 08:06 PM

Call Apple or Lenovo, they'll give you a list.

Will you be the first in line to purchase one of the new Chinese made cars? Seatbelt...would it really matter :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F06LjugtIUo&feature=related

Or maybe you are into SUV's instead :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7Ts94rjr4M&feature=related

d4m4don3

01-22-2008, 08:40 PM

Call Apple or Lenovo, they'll give you a list.

Lenovo? LOL

Sure they may have lots of contracts now, but since becoming lenovo many have been switching to other companies.

custar

01-22-2008, 09:43 PM

Call Apple or Lenovo, they'll give you a list.

Negative on the Lenovo. I have an IBM laptop (which I am using now even though it is about 2 generations old) and one of the new Lenovo laptops. IBM may have been manufacturing laptops in China, but when it went strictly to Lenovo, quality fell off the edge. I will not buy a Lenovo machine again.

custar

drg

01-22-2008, 10:02 PM

Supporting an American company is a large part of the value of buying an automag. The gun itself, new, isn't terribly competitive in most ways today.

robnix

01-22-2008, 10:27 PM

Negative on the Lenovo. I have an IBM laptop (which I am using now even though it is about 2 generations old) and one of the new Lenovo laptops. IBM may have been manufacturing laptops in China, but when it went strictly to Lenovo, quality fell off the edge. I will not buy a Lenovo machine again.

custar

Lenovo? LOL

Sure they may have lots of contracts now, but since becoming lenovo many have been switching to other companies.

The point is, and both of you argumentative gits know it, is that there ARE quality products manufactured in China.

drg

01-22-2008, 10:30 PM

Also let's not confuse "China" which usually means mainland China, with Taiwan.

robnix

01-22-2008, 11:08 PM

Will you be the first in line to purchase one of the new Chinese made cars? Seatbelt...would it really matter :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F06LjugtIUo&feature=related

Or maybe you are into SUV's instead :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7Ts94rjr4M&feature=related

No, but those cars are crap. I won't buy American cars if they're crap either.

I buy mags because I like that AGD sets high standards for production, the parts are modular, and they're easy to maintain. I buy parts from certain 3rd party sellers because they maintain those standards and keep my mags the sold piece of hardware that they are. If they weren't, there are several other excellent choices for markers, some made here, some made in other countries.

CoolHand

01-22-2008, 11:29 PM

Also let's not confuse "China" which usually means mainland China, with Taiwan.

Indeed. ROC != Chicoms Totally different ways of doing things, not to mention about a thirty year head start.

The Chicoms can indeed manufacture high quality items, they are no stupider than anyone else. They make some quite good machine tools, but they don't sell them in the US. Why? Because the only reason people in the US buy stuff from China is because it usually has a retardedly low price tag hanging from it.

You can't make something from nothing, and you can't sell something for nothing, and the Chinese know this all too well. The rub is, when faced with price or quality, they know that price is what sells it, so that's the way they swing.

The only reason a manufacturer goes to China to build their product is so they can lower their price point to under cut their competition. The only way to do that is to do so with crappy materials in a slap happy manner. Don't measure, don't check, just get them built and shipped. Faster, faster, faster.

The Chinese make an excellent copy of the Deckel five axis manual milling machines. They might as well have come from Deckel, the quality is that good. They only sell them in China, India, and Eastern Europe, because the price is nearly the same as a Deckel by the time you get one here, and the Deckel name carries the day with anyone who would be in the market for such a machine.

They are entirely capable of competing on quality, they just choose not to because they cannot under cut the going price when they do. They know their bread and butter is cheap crap at under half the going price point, so that's what they stick to for exports. They keep the quality production in-country where it can grow their industrial capacity, so they can continue to crap out cheap exports to fund said growth.

That all said:

1) No, probably not. There are still many fine pb markers to be had that are indeed made in the US. Especially with the glut of high quality used guns on the market now a days, I see no reason to buy a new Chinese made marker when I can have a gently used US made marker for even less. I also avoid Chicom stuff whenever possible because I dislike their politics, their general disregard for the rule of law, and the ease with which they dismiss the communution of their own people in the pursuit of the party line.

2) TK is a hell of a guy, but if the Mag were what it is today and TK had never touched it, I'd still buy one. The product is what it is because of TK, but if it could have become what it is without him, it would still be a great product.

Motorhead

01-22-2008, 11:52 PM

:cuss: I go out of my way to read "MADE IN" tags, China I avoid like the plague.
They pay NO attention to Patent laws, Copyright protocol or Design rights in general.
See little too no free thinking or research & design that is their own .... copy cats and mass merchanting HORES !!

So NO, if AGD came from China it would not be purchased :mad:

TK, passed the torch domestically, if the market exists for the business to survive as it is now, GREAT. If paintball and it's pioneers lived the glory days and profited from it peak, good for them :clap: If PB as we know it is now yesterdays news, so be it.

** Outside of BLING, a few ounces lighter, bps hoopla & bragging rights, there are enough MAGS around from all those who once played and owned one and now don't play, to get one in the hands of those who still play or will in the future.

In ones PB playing lifetime it is damn hard to wear one out, you don't need 3 or more.
Take the stock piled Mags from the marker hoarders and get them in the hand of those wanting to play, again you likely would have excess markers available.

JMO :cheers:

CoolHand

01-23-2008, 12:18 AM

. . . . Take the stock piled Mags from the marker hoarders and get them in the hand of those wanting to play, again you likely would have excess markers available.. . .

Hey!

We're not hoarding them, we're preserving them for future generations.

If you consider buying up any used marker that crosses your path at a good price as "saving" them, my army of the "saved" should be putting me up for sainthood any day now. ;) :D :ninja:

AGD

01-23-2008, 01:26 AM

MoeMag

01-23-2008, 01:46 AM

Sa-Mack! :eek:

Long live AGD :headbang:

Pneumagger

01-23-2008, 01:46 AM

:cuss: I go out of my way to read "MADE IN" tags, China I avoid like the plague...
ORLY
What computer are you typing on might I ask... Or what brand monitor are you looking at?

:rofl:

--------------------

Quality things are made in china all the time. Like logic said, we never see the good stuff they make because even over there good stuff costs more to make and even more to ship. Even still they still make some good stuff that sell sover here. Their cars have phenomenal lifespans.

If the quality were there I would still buy it. And no offense, if TK made a poor quality product I probably wouldn't buy it.
In all honestly, I'm pretty much done with buying paintball markers. I have my nice pump, I have my nice mag, and I have my custom project marker. I don't see that changing in a long while. All my disposable budget has been going to wards real guns and ammo. Just started payment for a Full Auto MAC 11 today actually - that'll be a good project for the rest of the year.

Ratt

01-23-2008, 02:47 AM

1) AGD products were made in China or Taiwan would you still buy them

and

2)If Tom Kay was in NO WAY associated with AGD would that matter?

Discuss.

Short answer: NO, I would not buy if made in China. Also, if TK gave his 'seal of approval' to someone else's involvement with/running of AGD, then I might be inclined to buy...

Pacifist_Farmer

01-23-2008, 07:59 AM

They pay NO attention to Patent laws, Copyright protocol or Design rights in general.
See little too no free thinking or research & design that is their own .... copy cats and mass merchanting HORES !!

While I completely agree, and as I hear it that is one of the main reasons some manufacturers will not move to China, isn't that more of a marketing/upper management/lack of morals issue than a manufacturing quality issue. The people that are responsible for making quality parts are not usually the ones making the policy designs.

BigEvil

01-23-2008, 08:24 AM

I think it's because the situation you are suggesting isn't really likely, or even possible. You just can't get a part made to the standards it would need to be in China.

Anything is possible. Note the across the board price increases on AGD products. Hypothetically, an option to move production to China would help lower cost, no?

I also deal with Chinese manufacturing every day, and from several different locations. It seems that neither of them can do the same thing correctly twice in a row. Whether its a products color, packaging, container cubing, or even cargo manifests there are issues every day here. Crap like that goes with the 'cheap' territory.

Things can either be made for a low cost and poorly or for more money and better quality.

They say to be successful you need to do one thing better than anyone else. The one thing AGD has always done better than any other paintball manufacturer is make a better quality product. You can argue faster, lighter, more efficient, but you cannot argue quality. A move to Chinese production would eliminate that standard.

The one thing China can do better, is make dollar store quality products cheaply.

Another thing about my original post, is that there is, or was, a cult like loyalty to Tom Kaye. I was curious to know how people would react to his permanent absence.

BigEvil

01-23-2008, 12:28 PM

Dave bought the inventory and I let him use the name etc to sell the product.
AGD

That sure is gracious of you considering its AGD products that he bought from you. ;)

buzzbrick

01-23-2008, 12:36 PM

1.) the best part of an AGD marker is the unbelievable durability and quality. cutting production costs, and inevitably quality, just wouldn't seem like AGD. i couldn't imagine holding a mag and thinking to myself 'boy, its a pity they made this part so flimsy'
2.) anyone that has Tom's blessing is just fine with me

skipdogg

01-23-2008, 09:03 PM

1) only if there seemed to be absolutly no difference in current specs, prices, quality,etc. otherwise no.

2)See #1 , and add crying like a girl.

Motorhead

01-23-2008, 11:42 PM

ORLY
What computer are you typing on might I ask... Or what brand monitor are you looking at?

:rofl:

--------------------

.

Computer a Hewlett Packard made in Singapore and a Sony Trinitron monitor made in the USA.

Your point ? :hail:

VeeWee

01-24-2008, 01:02 AM

I work for Ford and this pisses me off to no end... Toyota Camry made in America, Ford Fusion made in Mexico.

Bulldog

01-26-2008, 11:23 PM

Anything is possible. Note the across the board price increases on AGD products. Hypothetically, an option to move production to China would help lower cost, no?

I also deal with Chinese manufacturing every day, and from several different locations. It seems that neither of them can do the same thing correctly twice in a row. Whether its a products color, packaging, container cubing, or even cargo manifests there are issues every day here. Crap like that goes with the 'cheap' territory.

Things can either be made for a low cost and poorly or for more money and better quality.

They say to be successful you need to do one thing better than anyone else. The one thing AGD has always done better than any other paintball manufacturer is make a better quality product. You can argue faster, lighter, more efficient, but you cannot argue quality. A move to Chinese production would eliminate that standard.

The one thing China can do better, is make dollar store quality products cheaply.

Another thing about my original post, is that there is, or was, a cult like loyalty to Tom Kaye. I was curious to know how people would react to his permanent absence.

I agree. My statement you quoted was in response to someone above it who asked if quality stayed the same, but in China. I guess it's possible to produce a quality product over there, but I wouldn't hold my breath, or want to be involved with the headaches associated with trying to do so.

As to the second part of your question, I think a lot of people would be disheartened by his absence. He's one of the few owners that has made himself accessible to the public, and that's endeared him to a lot of people. I know when I torqued the heck out of my X mag feed neck, and actually got a response from the guy who owned the company I was impressed. They'd probably lose a lot of customers if he wasn't associated with AGD anymore. But it's just a guess.

Russ

01-27-2008, 12:25 AM

I like the idea that AGD is an American company, run by good folks. Tom's involvement in the company has turned me from a consumer into a fanatic, and for that, I'm greatful :)

I realize that they have most of their products made by third party manufacturer's, and I've always hoped that these were American companies, but I have no way of knowing.

IIRC, the X Mags were machined in Great Britain

AGD

01-27-2008, 12:43 AM

Russ,

Have no fear, everything was made here (mostly within miles of the factory so we could go check on them). Even the xmag was made by our sister company AGD Europe (in their garage) so it was still in the family.

AGD

foefumm

01-27-2008, 12:45 AM

:cheers:
Russ,

Have no fear, everything was made here (mostly within miles of the factory so we could go check on them). Even the xmag was made by our sister company AGD Europe (in their garage) so it was still in the family.

AGD

Tao

01-27-2008, 02:03 AM

1) Where it is made makes no difference, what counts is quality. If agd managed to manufacture in Asia and ship it over here and maintain quality I would still buy AGD stuff. The exception I would list would be that AGD takes some moral responsibility and ensures they arent selling their business to a manufacturer who doesnt treat their employess fairly (i.e. sweat shop).

2) I doubt TK would ever not be involved in some way since it is something he created and has great pride for. However the rest of AGD is still a great company and I have had great interactions (as limited as they are) with the AGD staff. I would still buy AGD stuff with the only expection being if they were owned by smart parts :rofl:

Tao

01-27-2008, 02:08 AM

Just so you guys know, I still own the company, Dave bought the inventory and I let him use the name etc to sell the product. I am still interested in the long term survival of AGD and am keeping all the options open on that INCLUDING being involved down the road.

And as you can see I still come here every day. :)

AGD

It would be nice to see! ;)
At least I am sure that the smart parts patent issues cant cover anything. How about designing the Segway mounted Mag?

blake20

01-27-2008, 10:32 AM

You all are correct you can get good products from China, But you have spend the $ to get them. Then you have to spend more $ to check them once they get here to make sure that you are going to get the quality all the time that you want. I'm not wanting to rant but we seem to be the most stupid country of people in the world. We seem to think China is our friend!!!! HELLO they are a Communist Country, Last time I checked That was a bad thing. So we buy cheap toys for our kids just to save a buck, and no one bothers to find out until after the fact, that the toys my kids are putting in their mouth are full of lead. HELLO that leads to Brain damage. Most of you probably have not heard about the China Steel Issue, so here it is. Steel is supposed to have a certain Chemistry to qualify for a grade spec ASTM. China has flooded the market with Cheap Structural Beams and Structural Tubing. This has been going on for some time. Buildings, Bridges, Equipment, anything made with steel members have this cheap steel in it. Guess what no one bothered to check this material after the 1st few shipments and now we find it does not even come close to the specs. So China is going to make us stupid with lead and kill us when our Bridges fall and building collapse All the time were paying for it. This is only 2 examples how may more are there??? I said it before WE ARE STUPID PEOPLE!!!!

My answer to the 1st question if you couldn't tell is NOOOOOOOOOO!

As for the 2nd question I agree with most of you if the person who took over the Company remembered how and what the Company stood for I don't think that there would be a problem. I have not been here for as long of a time as most of you but just from his posts, I think that all of us would miss Tom.

Too much said. Sorry for the rant

RogueFactor

01-29-2008, 01:51 PM

Good story.

http://jobs.aol.com/article/_a/small-manufacturers-desperately-seek/20080123163009990001

While millions of jobs making everything from textiles to steel have moved to powerhouses such as China in recent years, precision manufacturing remains a crucial niche in the USA, one that is overworked and chronically understaffed.

State officials say less-skilled work will continue to move overseas where pay is lower. The state has pledged $17 million to develop a skilled workforce and keep the high-precision sector here. "We're not going to compete on the price of our labor, we're going to compete on the skill of our labor," said Sandi Vito, the state's deputy secretary for workforce development.

Smaller businesses -- those with 200 employees or fewer -- make up the bulk of the U.S. manufacturing sector, and for them the skills shortage is a crucial issue.