Automag level 10 I need your input!

[flying Dutchman]

Okay folks here's the deal. I'm trying to figure out if the Automag level 10 classic would make a good rental marker. I've got a fleet of level 7 classics and the players tend to short stroke the trigger and complain about the marker because it then breaks paint. I've got them on compressed air, Now something I should also point out. We play in gun classes on our field. We divide into the class of gun the player is carring. Pump, Semi auto, or Unlimited firepower. I need a good semi auto for the fleet. So it hasn't got to throw 20 balls a second. But it has to be dependable, tough to take the abuse, simple to clean and maintain. And it should have some appeal. Players that show up with their old Tippmann 98 or their Brass Eagle marker fresh from that big box store. I want our fleet to out gun them. So when a player rents the package for $10 bucks he knows he's getting his moneys worth.

I need your feed back folks before I buy 50 of theses for the fleet. Tell me what you think, good points and bad.

Thanks.

[drg]

Seems like a good upgrade path since you already have the level 7s

[trevorjk]

once the level 10's are tuned properly they are just as durable as the classic valve. only forseable issue with the level 10 is after a while it might leak. if it does, just replace the level 10 oring and your good to go

[Bad_Dog]

if I understand correctly your concern with the lvl 10 is the chance for increased matinence?

...possibly the concept of taking something simple and making it more complicated?


I think you'll be in for a tad bit of tinkering to get them all up and running, then once the initial install on your fleet is done you should be okay.

...and if you do have a malfunction on a valve while it's rented out, they will bring it to you, you can swap them out with a different marker (youu have 50 right?) and they'll be set to go.

[drg]

Automag level 10 I need your input!

850 psi HP fixed screw-in :rofl:

[RRfireblade]

Okay folks here's the deal. I'm trying to figure out if the Automag level 10 classic would make a good rental marker. I've got a fleet of level 7 classics and the players tend to short stroke the trigger and complain about the marker because it then breaks paint. I've got them on compressed air, Now something I should also point out. We play in gun classes on our field. We divide into the class of gun the player is carring. Pump, Semi auto, or Unlimited firepower. I need a good semi auto for the fleet. So it hasn't got to throw 20 balls a second. But it has to be dependable, tough to take the abuse, simple to clean and maintain. And it should have some appeal. Players that show up with their old Tippmann 98 or their Brass Eagle marker fresh from that big box store. I want our fleet to out gun them. So when a player rents the package for $10 bucks he knows he's getting his moneys worth.

I need your feed back folks before I buy 50 of theses for the fleet. Tell me what you think, good points and bad.

Thanks.

Honestly . . .

I'm not sure I would go that route on a fleet of rentals. The L10 does require more maintanance and more regular lubrication. Also , it's normal operation sometimes creates noises and firing conditions that the average renter won't likely understand and construe as a malfunctioning marker. It will use a bit more air per shot. It sure doesn't solve short stroking which is at the heart of your problem in the first place.

The good , well it's a Mag of course. :)

[maniacmechanic]

Have to agree with fireblade , sounds like they just need 2 or 3 minutes more instruction ; ie you have to fully pull the trigger , this is not an electro

[BigEvil]

Singe trigger frames? Maybe you can try one or two with 2 finger triggers. That's what helped stop me from short stroking the trigger.

[flying Dutchman]

Have to agree with fireblade , sounds like they just need 2 or 3 minutes more instruction ; ie you have to fully pull the trigger , this is not an electro

Okay guys some very good points so far. But please remember we/re talking rental folks. They aren't bad folks as a rule. They just don't know poo when it comes from paintball and they haven't goit a penny in the gear. When I explain short stroking the trigger they all break out laughing at the phrase. (I'm sure they are thinking of another activity) But short of a baseball bat I don't seem to be able to reach them. We do have spares right on the field so the lads just go the ref and get a new marker.

But will the level 10 still break paint if it's short stroked???

I've also been told to change barrels were running a Dye 14 inch stainless
Suggestion is to shift to a 12 inch smarts All American. I went with the Dye as it's a one piece and stong enough so they can't break it.

Example I saw a player using the barrel on the gun to break limbs of a fir tree so he could shoot around it easier. As he was chopping them off I was killing myself in a dead run to try to save my marker. That's the joy of the rental world!

Keep posting guys this is very helpful and I do thenk you for your input.

Dutch

[secretweaponevan]

To be honest, while the LVL 10 is an awesome upgrade, the maintenance/upkeep on a fleet of LVL 10's would probably be more than your current headaches. Some type of forcefeed loader will probably actually save you money in the long run (and yes, I am accounting for battery costs vs. labor for maintenace/troubleshooting a fleet of 20 or more LVL 10 mags).

Just my $0.02

[Spider-TW]

Honestly . . .

I'm not sure I would go that route on a fleet of rentals. The L10 does require more maintanance and more regular lubrication. Also , it's normal operation sometimes creates noises and firing conditions that the average renter won't likely understand and construe as a malfunctioning marker. It will use a bit more air per shot. It sure doesn't solve short stroking which is at the heart of your problem in the first place.

The good , well it's a Mag of course. :)

I don't think the extra chuff would stop a newbie from pulling the trigger again, which should work next time.

You don't see too many guns with eyes that noticeably miss a shot; 1) they usually have dual triggers being pulled too fast to notice and 2) motorized hopper.

You would need to warn them off of dry firing, or you will end up filling a lot of bottles.

I had an experiment that might be useful for 50 level 10s. New power tube orings often have a thin mold line on the inner surface. If you set up the level 10 with a new oring, it will often need re-tuning when it wears in. You can run the new oring over a metal rod of the about same diameter as the bolt stem with some fine automotive rubbing compound. That will take the mold line off so that your first tuning should last longer.

[Spider-TW]

To be honest, while the LVL 10 is an awesome upgrade, the maintenance/upkeep on a fleet of LVL 10's would probably be more than your current headaches. Some type of forcefeed loader will probably actually save you money in the long run (and yes, I am accounting for battery costs vs. labor for maintenace/troubleshooting a fleet of 20 or more LVL 10 mags).

Just my $0.02
Powered loaders would help a lot, but newbies can sure tear them up. I guess you could buy shells in bulk.

[Old School 626]

What type of hoppers are you using now? If they are only gravity fed, i.e. not agitated or force fed, that is probably what is leading to the chops you are experiencing.

I would experiment with a few hoppers and see what works between agitated and force fed and leave upgrading to LX on the table for now.

[flying Dutchman]

What type of hoppers are you using now? If they are only gravity fed, i.e. not agitated or force fed, that is probably what is leading to the chops you are experiencing.

I would experiment with a few hoppers and see what works between agitated and force fed and leave upgrading to LX on the table for now.


I've run Halo backmen on them for a while but the boys were pretty rough on them.

I went back to VL 200 and they seem to be okay except for the few occasions these guys try to rip. I'm not setting them up for speedball. These should be in the woods. We have Mini Inverts in the speedball fleet.

[drg]

I don't see what's the big concern about short stroking. The level 10 will prevent a break either way, as far as I know. You can say "full trigger pulls" in the briefing if you want to, that's not even 2 to 3 minutes, that's 2 seconds.

I think spider has a great idea about pre-wearing the ring.

[flying Dutchman]

I don't see what's the big concern about short stroking. The level 10 will prevent a break either way, as far as I know. You can say "full trigger pulls" in the briefing if you want to, that's not even 2 to 3 minutes, that's 2 seconds.

I think spider has a great idea about pre-wearing the ring.

Now this is good, if they short stroke the l-10 will it break paint of just skip the round.

I'm not worring about the them chuckling over the phrase short stroke. But these folks don't listen well. Some show up with an attitude that they know it all others just want to get on the field and wish the old guy would just shut up so they can play. They are doing well if they get their goggs pointing the right way.

As a rental, will the kids be able to bugger it up?

Right now a common is to watch them turn the barrel as they remove the barrel plug. You know what that means when it's time to feed paint. I just gave up after telling them over and over and went to barrel bags! But that's the sort of thing I have to deal with daily!

[ta2maki]

What happens when you short stroke a mag is that you don't allow the dump chamber to fully pressurize. There isn't enough air to push the ball out the barrel, so it ends up sitting inside the end of the barrel. When the next shot is made, the second ball is slammed into the first, causing a mess. This is why a level 10(which is an anti-chop bolt)will do nothing to stop short stroke paint breaks.

Now when you short stroke an autococker, you prevent the backblock from going all the way back. Best case, this leaves the hammer uncocked and a second pull of the trigger loads a second ball and you get a double shot. Worst case, you pinch a ball in the breech with the bolt and make a mess. Anti-chop solutions would work well in this situation.

Also in order to keep from short stroking a mag, you need to fully release the trigger each time. Full trigger pulls are for autocockers.

[drg]

When I shortstroke my level 10 the ball usually makes it out, but it just doesn't go very far. I honestly think you will have no more trouble with breaks than any other type of rental marker, and definitely less than your level 7s.

[flying Dutchman]

What happens when you short stroke a mag is that you don't allow the dump chamber to fully pressurize. There isn't enough air to push the ball out the barrel, so it ends up sitting inside the end of the barrel. When the next shot is made, the second ball is slammed into the first, causing a mess. This is why a level 10(which is an anti-chop bolt)will do nothing to stop short stroke paint breaks.

Now when you short stroke an autococker, you prevent the backblock from going all the way back. Best case, this leaves the hammer uncocked and a second pull of the trigger loads a second ball and you get a double shot. Worst case, you pinch a ball in the breech with the bolt and make a mess. Anti-chop solutions would work well in this situation.

Also in order to keep from short stroking a mag, you need to fully release the trigger each time. Full trigger pulls are for autocockers.

That's what I was curious about, I know the short stroke caused breaks in the barrel. I didn't see how the L10 front bolt would prevent that. Now if I move from my 14 inch Dye barrel to a 10 inch I would think there might be a better chance of the ball clearing the barrel even on the short stroke. ????

[Spider-TW]

That's what I was curious about, I know the short stroke caused breaks in the barrel. I didn't see how the L10 front bolt would prevent that. Now if I move from my 14 inch Dye barrel to a 10 inch I would think there might be a better chance of the ball clearing the barrel even on the short stroke. ????
I doubt you would notice the few balls that make it past 10 inches but wouldn't have made it past 14 inches.

For most of us here, an RT on/off in a classic valve will help with short stroking, just because the trigger is lighter. I'm not sure it would help someone that wasn't used to shooting a mag in the first place.

Trigger stops help a little by making the whole stroke shorter. You would have to loctite them in and sometimes you may have to push the trigger rod back in a little further when you disassemble the valve. That would be a lot of triggers to mess with though.

Either that or the disposable rubber bumpers behind the trigger would be an easy experiment.

As long as the kids are not allowed to take the marker apart, they shouldn't be able to do any harm to the level 10 bolt. The most common failure besides tuning is someone takes a wrench to the power tube tip to tighten it and the brass breaks. You might keep a few tips on hand for your own sake with 50 markers.

I needed a level 10 because I move a lot (bouncing the ball stack) and shoot faster than a gravity feed hopper going through a power feed - feed neck. Not that fast, just consistent. Most new kids I watch tend to "aim" and shoot, then move a little. What I'm trying to figure out; "is a level 10 chuff any (shorter, better, softer) than a level 7 chuff?". I don't think so. However, any break avoided in a rental is going to be worth something.

There are those individuals that can break anything, and as my grandfather used to say, "that boy could break an anvil".

[drg]

Call me crazy but I think a heavier trigger leads to less short stroking.