byop or fpo

[flying Dutchman]

Okay folks, here's a topic to mull over. As a player would you prefer a field that is bring your own paint or field paint only.

This is the tricky part. Tell me why. Now the one answer that is out of bounds is because it's cheaper. The cost for a day of play is based not just on paint price but the players usage and waste.

Remember I'm a field owner. We sell All Star, Chronic, and Evil at 3 cents per. ($60 a case)

The problem with the cheap paint is its quality. It can be very hard, or the diameter isn't constant so you get wild velocity changes. Which is fine for the shooter, but his targets are going to get whacked.

Is the demand for BYOP a sign the industry is trying to push players to spend more than they can afford?

Just throwing this out for thought and picking your brains to help me make my field a better place for the players. Thanks for your help!

Dutch.

[drg]

Not sure why you would rule out cost, since that's the #1 reason. I get my own quality paint for under $40 a case and few FPO fields even come close. Some do though.

The biggest reason beyond that for me is quality. The main FPO field around here does a terrible job of storing paint and it is often not very good. Other BYO fields that supply their own paint often are the same. Couple that with paying more and you are paying more for less.

[dstud2000]

My problem with FPO is quality. Quite often the paint is either dimpled or out of round, and it is costing me $60 a case. Plus most in my area only offer one choice of paint. Your field I would not mind the FPO becuase you offer atleast 3 choices, though they are the same price, tiered pricing would make it even more attractive for me. The reason tiered pricing would be attractive to me is when I have the extra money to spend, I will buy the top grade paint, but sometimes I am on a little tighter budget so it is nice to have an alternate option in price.

1.Quality and freshness affect how I feel about FPO and BYOP fields.

2.tiered pricing, if you have alternate choice of paint at even just 2 different prices, say regular at $50 and premium at $60 will cause me to choose one FPO field over another that only has one choice of paint.

[93civiccpe]

Here's my take on it... we have a local field that has 14 of the best fields in the area. Most believe it to be one of the top 2 fields in the state. The problem is that it is field paint only, and that their prices are SUPPOSED to be $45 for white box, $55 for mid-grade, and $65 for tournament grade. Everytime I've been, all they've had was crappy dimpled stinger, and they were selling it for $65. It is the only choice and it is at the maximum cost. That really puts a dent into a fun day of play.

On the other hand, the other local field has a store associated with it. There you can get good paint at between $30-40, that is round, not dimpled, and not brittle. The problem with their field is that it is under construction and they don't have very much room to play. Due to that, I find myself buying paint at this store, then driving over an hour to go to a field that is BYOP. I would not mind if a store charged me $5-$7 per each case I brought with me. That is understandable.. I know they make most of their money off of paint, so if you have to pay to bring your own then fine. The problem I have is whey they require you to use their paint, and it is severely overpriced and crappy paint.

[IDriveBug]

From a money perspective you are asking whether we would rather spend 20 to get on the field with your paint or 35 to get on the field with our own paint.

Fortunately my local field has pretty much always had at least 2 fair to good quality field paint options as for price, when paint went from 2500 in a case to 2000 in a case, they didnt change one penny.... Like that wasnt the idea of dropping case quantity... but prices have never been way out of the ballpark.

As far as quality goes, paint i have bought there has pretty much always been in good shape and most of the time a good name brand. My mag is not picky, and it doesnt shoot 29BPS so paint rarely turns into an issue with me. Though I do come from the school of thought that every so often a paintball is going to break in the gun, most of it will shoot out after a few shots therefore until it starts breaking paint one after another its not a real problem for me...

Aside from that, they have both FPO and BYOP days so reguardless of which principle you stand for, you have a day to play.

Ultimately I would rather play on a FPO day because I dont shoot enough less expensive paint in a day to cover the difference in field admission. If field admission was the same, for byop or fpo then my answer might be different. Now if I could get them to let me use the field paint circa 1998 that i have and never used... :)

[cougar20th]

Im becoming more of a fan of field paint only.

The main reason for this is at a recent byop senario I was shot with some sort of paint that did two things I didnt like. 1) etched into my new lense destroying them. 2) caused me to break out in a rash where i was shot and got paint on skin.

If it was Fpo I would at least know what I was shot with. Ive never until that day had any problems with good paint.

Another reason is that I already carry alot to the field. Ive forgotten paint on several occasions. Its easier if I dont have to deal with remembering paint.

[cerrik]

I have to say that there are 2 reasons, that I like BYOP vs. FPO.

1) Unfortunatly, it is cheaper. I rarely ever use more than half a case for a day of play. I usually start off by breaking open one bag to fill everything and I usually end up having to crack into that second bag. By the end of the day, I'm filling other ppls pods with my left over pods and that open bag. It's normally no more than about 200-300 leftover balls but I'm not gonna take home an open bag that has been sitting open all day in the elements. That still leaves the other 1000 unopened rounds. I take them home, store them for a week or two and I can go play again with mostly fresh paint.

2) The quality of FPO at the field I play at mostly is not so good. The field office where the paint is stored has no A/C, it's usually really humid; more so as the day progresses and the brand is not the best, Stinger. These factors as well as the listed above way of how I load up everything, contribute to out of round paint, dimples, too fragile shell, rubbery shell, as well as paint that doesn't fly well.

I can pick up quality paint for $50-65 and use it for two game days. Making my cost much easier to take. And in addition, using up a whole case for myself in regular play is wasteful.

[Twistedpsyche]

This is a discussion I constantly have with my local field. My local field has FPO except one sunday a month where they do BYOP. BYOP days are by far their bussiest day. In fact they even sold out of paint on a BYOP day.

Well when they have scenarios they charge for admission which costs $35. Then they make you do FPO at their "discount" rate of $55 a case. I have gone round and round on them with this issue. I have easily 20 people who would LOVE to attend their scenarios, but can't because it is so cost prohibitive. It actually works out cheaper for us to drive an extra 20 miles out of state to a field that charges 40 for admission, but does BYOP.

We buy all our paint at our local store (no walmart paint here) and we get good quality paint for 40 a case. The field we travel out of state to has several different types of paint at reasonable prices.

I have written to our local field many times going over all the advantages, but they give the classic excuse "it's how we make our money". I promise you, allow BYOP (except monster balls of course) and provide good quality paint at a reasonable price and you can charge an extra 5 or 10 for admission. You would easily attract more people which means increased bussiness not only for the one event, but in the future as well. You lower overhead not having to carry as many different types of paint that can go bad. It helps support the local stores keeping them open. It's just a win/win.

I could go on and on, but I'm at work and don't have time. :)

[robnix]

Here's my answer.

I simply won't go to places that are FPO, and it's not because of pricing or paint quality. The area I'm in has enough competition that fields simply cant' rip you off on price. There's 9 places to go within an hour drive of my house, both speed and woods, indoor and outdoor. The competition also helps keep the paint quality up, so I can get a fresh case of tournament grade case for $60.00-$65.00.

I won't go to FPO fields simply because I always have leftover paint. I like to be able to use what I've purchased, so my day usually starts with me finishing off the last bag from the last time I played first. I went to one field that wouldn't even let me use it at the chrono/tech station. I don't think I've ever brought paint to a field and not purchased more either at the start of the day, or sometime later on,

[Chronobreak]

well msot ifnot all te fields ive been to are field paint only for rentals and private groups for obvious reasons, so tahts fine and all.

but they allow byop for Open play, since you can never please all the regulars

but i and others should expect to pay 10-20 more for not buying the paint at the field and supporting them.

fields that dont get much business or have alot of amenities may also have to charge more than certain fields, but fields gotta do what they have to do make $ and stay open.

[trevorjk]

well its $20 to get in either way where i play. there paint is Formula 13 for $80 a case. or i can BYOP. so $50 a case for good paint from my local store compared to $80 a case for decent paint. makes sense to me.

thats all i got

[flying Dutchman]

Okay guys for the most part what I'm hearing is the money thing. Again I understand that point. But work on this for a minute.

I've put evil through my mags and set them up to shoot 250-260.

With no change to the marker or the compressed air tank, I can throw Stinger in and watch them climb to 295-305 FPS

So in a BYOP situation where players may well borrow paint and trade paint during a game, how can you control the velocity and keep it safe????

Because if you started with the evil at 290 your stinger would blaze out of the marker at about 350 FPS

Where with field paint we've all chronographed on the same thing and we're all shooting the same thing.

If a field is going to be responseble to keep you safe you have to work with us.

Beside what's wrong with a field making a little money. If they get a penny a ball profit it helps them stay in business.

My refs make close to $10 an hour. With the Workmans Comp and the witholding taxes they cost me about $13.00 an hour. so the field fee pays the wages, the air fills pay for the compressor and if you BYOP what pays me back for investing thousand of dollars into a facility???

[68magOwner]

I only play at BYOP facilities, because, I get chronic pro (not going to cause velocity fluxuations or anything that will hurt my "targets") paint for free, and, dont have money to pay for paint otherwise.

I feel that if your going to make a field FPO, at least carry cheaper options for customers. like a $40 or $45/case ball as opposed to $60. I dont think most guys get paint for less than $40 anyway, and shouldnt be opposed to paying that.

Beyond cost, some fields just have bad paint. Take local big field Paintball Central for example. Now, they have the best facilities in the region, by far. They are a field paint only facility, which is fine, but, the paint they sell, honestly, shoots pretty well, is pretty consistent, but, bounces off everything. They sell another formula, that also shoots well, has a brittle enough shell, but, has a very runny fill. And both options are $65+ a case. Now, i just think thats a little high. BUT, at the same time, im sure running such amazing facilities isnt cheap at all, and, they have to make money somehow.

[Chronobreak]

Okay guys for the most part what I'm hearing is the money thing. Again I understand that point. But work on this for a minute.

I've put evil through my mags and set them up to shoot 250-260.

With no change to the marker or the compressed air tank, I can throw Stinger in and watch them climb to 295-305 FPS

So in a BYOP situation where players may well borrow paint and trade paint during a game, how can you control the velocity and keep it safe????

Because if you started with the evil at 290 your stinger would blaze out of the marker at about 350 FPS

Where with field paint we've all chronographed on the same thing and we're all shooting the same thing.

If a field is going to be responseble to keep you safe you have to work with us.

Beside what's wrong with a field making a little money. If they get a penny a ball profit it helps them stay in business.

My refs make close to $10 an hour. With the Workmans Comp and the witholding taxes they cost me about $13.00 an hour. so the field fee pays the wages, the air fills pay for the compressor and if you BYOP what pays me back for investing thousand of dollars into a facility???

have your tried weening your players off brinigng their own paint?

offering discounts for buying paint at the field.

like i sad our prices are $65 a case, $10 entry so 75 for a case,all day air and entry

now say you bring your own paint your gonna pay $20 for entry, and $5 for all day air. then add whatever they paid for paint elsewhere. Assuming they paid atleast $40 +for a decent case of paint its gonna be more $ than buying it at the field

also dont be afraid to tell your customers that it cost alot to run the place, some people need to have it spelled out for them as you can buy paint online for $30 a case in alot of places they think your making a killing and dont see the need to support the field.

theres aloso alot of other reasons to not allow people to bring paint, the fps changes are not one of the major ones if you ask me, just be sure that they know if they shoot over 300 or field limit they get one warning, do it again theyr done for the day no exceptions.

handheld chronos and random checks are your friend. and a 30+fps increase seems a bit absurd, but if thats the case lower your field limit to 275 or so.

[robnix]

Okay guys for the most part what I'm hearing is the money thing. Again I understand that point. But work on this for a minute.

I've put evil through my mags and set them up to shoot 250-260.

With no change to the marker or the compressed air tank, I can throw Stinger in and watch them climb to 295-305 FPS

So in a BYOP situation where players may well borrow paint and trade paint during a game, how can you control the velocity and keep it safe????

Because if you started with the evil at 290 your stinger would blaze out of the marker at about 350 FPS

Where with field paint we've all chronographed on the same thing and we're all shooting the same thing.

If a field is going to be responseble to keep you safe you have to work with us.


Most of the places I play at do red chrono checks before the start of the day, and handheld checks before each game. It won't help during the game, but it gives you some control.


Beside what's wrong with a field making a little money. If they get a penny a ball profit it helps them stay in business.

My refs make close to $10 an hour. With the Workmans Comp and the witholding taxes they cost me about $13.00 an hour. so the field fee pays the wages, the air fills pay for the compressor and if you BYOP what pays me back for investing thousand of dollars into a facility???

Nothing's wrong with a field making a little money. But the people you're asking this question to are a pretty knowledgeable bunch and won't be overcharged, especially if all you offer is stinger or white box paint. (Not singling you out on that, but there used to be an indoor place in my area that was FPO and sold white box for $40.00.) Charge a fair price and give people a choice in quality and people will buy your paint. Offer good services on top of that and they'll keep coming back over and over. I do even though I know I can get it a few bucks cheaper online because I know it helps keep my favorite places to play in business and it makes for a friendlier day for me at those fields.

[robnix]

offering discounts for buying paint at the field.

like i sad our prices are $65 a case, $10 entry so 75 for a case,all day air and entry

now say you bring your own paint your gonna pay $20 for entry, and $5 for all day air. then add whatever they paid for paint elsewhere. Assuming they paid atleast $40 +for a decent case of paint its gonna be more $ than buying it at the field


This is exactly what the place I'm going to this weekend does. It's a great system that balances the pricing out.

[Chronobreak]

yeahp good service goes a very long way.

forgot to add, if someone buys your paint make sure they know they are being guaranteed a great time. if they have gun problems give em a rental and get em back out there shooting your paint!

if they bring their own, say if you buy our paint well give you a free rental, or would have, but be nice about it.

its just like buying a gun online or from your local pro shop.

if you buy something online you cant expect the local shop owner to waste his time and $ on it when you diddnt get it from him.

[robnix]

yeahp good service goes a very long way.

forgot to add, if someone buys your paint make sure they know they are being guaranteed a great time. if they have gun problems give em a rental and get em back out there shooting your paint!

if they bring their own, say if you buy our paint well give you a free rental, or would have, but be nice about it.

its just like buying a gun online or from your local pro shop.


A buddy of mine was borrowing my backup at the time which was a classic mag on an AA Armageddon. The LP gauge broke about 30 minutes into play and there was no replacement to be found, so the one of the guys working at the field handed him a screw in HPA tank to use with a duckbill that I had so he could keep playing. He bought a half a case later to keep playing that he would have never bought if we wouldn't have had a replacement. I also ended up at the store that the field had the next Monday to buy a new gauge for the tank. It was a more than what I would have paid online, but it was the little bit I could do for the outstanding service at the field.

[dstud2000]

As I said before, my experience here with FPO has been quality and freshness issues. Flying Dutchman it sounds like your FPO setup is fairly decent and if you keep it fresh and stored well, then your customers will be happy, if the fields I played at offered the FPO paint you did and kept stored well then I would be more than happy to help support an FPO field. As it is now there is only 1 BYOP field left in my area, all the rest are FPO. So I generally play where I have had the best luck with paint. All the FPO places in my area sell pro caps brand paint, except one place, which if it is alteast Blaze is fine, I just wish they would offer an RPS alternative like marbs or evil.

[flying Dutchman]

As I said before, my experience here with FPO has been quality and freshness issues. Flying Dutchman it sounds like your FPO setup is fairly decent and if you keep it fresh and stored well, then your customers will be happy, if the fields I played at offered the FPO paint you did and kept stored well then I would be more than happy to help support an FPO field. As it is now there is only 1 BYOP field left in my area, all the rest are FPO. So I generally play where I have had the best luck with paint. All the FPO places in my area sell pro caps brand paint, except one place, which if it is alteast Blaze is fine, I just wish they would offer an RPS alternative like marbs or evil.

We order by the skid and we order every 3-4 weeks so it's not old paint you'll be shooting.
Evil, Chronic and All Star are about the best your going to do for quality

My big fear is that the some of the crap paint some of the players try to bring in is as hard as a rock.

The different bore sizes make it impossible to lock down velocity.

One group showed up to use the indoor last week. They had 5 cases of stinger, empty air tanks and $20 bucks between the four of them. They were really ticked off when I sent them home. They told me $20 was better than nothing! I sent the ref home and turned down the heat. Here in Maine our heated indoor sets us back $400.00 a week in just heat. If you cut the profit out of the business you will kill it. Or reduce it to guys behind someones house.

If this sport is going to grow and be healthy, there has to be enough reason (profit) for business people to invest in it.

[robnix]

We order by the skid and we order every 3-4 weeks so it's not old paint you'll be shooting.
Evil, Chronic and All Star are about the best your going to do for quality

My big fear is that the some of the crap paint some of the players try to bring in is as hard as a rock.

So check the paint that people bring in then.


The different bore sizes make it impossible to lock down velocity.

We've already given you a game to game solution for this that's cheap to implement and only adds a minute or two to each game. If locking velocity down is such a huge concern, then you'll also enforce rules like no tools on the field and velocity locks on mags.


One group showed up to use the indoor last week. They had 5 cases of stinger, empty air tanks and $20 bucks between the four of them. They were really ticked off when I sent them home. They told me $20 was better than nothing! I sent the ref home and turned down the heat.

They deserved to be refused entry, but not for the cheap paint, just for being idiots in general.


Here in Maine our heated indoor sets us back $400.00 a week in just heat. If you cut the profit out of the business you will kill it. Or reduce it to guys behind someones house.

Every business has it's expenses

If this sport is going to grow and be healthy, there has to be enough reason (profit) for business people to invest in it.
You're sounding like you're trying to find people to help you justify going FPO, Instead, be creative and find additional ways your field can make money. Diversify where your profit comes from instead of relying on one primary source of revenue. Install some vending machines, sell cheap barrel socks, pods, etc... low margin high profit items to supplement the income you get from field fees and paint. One field I go to runs concessions complete with double cheeseburgers and hot dogs made to order.

I'm not trying to sound rude about this, but the business you're in is at it's core is a service business. You're service just happens to be running a paintball field. I would focus on how to provide the best service possible for all your customers, safety is a part of that, but there's a lot more to it as well.

[SR_matt]

byop is good on the side of the players get the paint for cheaper, they can play with what they like (i have not gotten to play with chronic for well over a year probably pushing on 2 because the field i play at now doesnt sell it any more). but at the same time you have junkier paint, harder paint, etc etc

FPO, consistent results for all the players (if one player is having a bad day with the paint there will be a lot others).

basically i dont mind FPO but i hate the fact that i pay 20 bucks more per case than what they sell it for at their retail store. if you want to do FPO 60 is not a bad price for those paints you listed but maybe even knocking a few bucks off (not sure what you would sell it for in a storefront type resale )

hmm 10 bucks an hour plus benefits? can i ref for you, got almost 2 years experance in reffing, plenty of people relations experance and played for over 5 years :p . seriously though i was reffing for a case of cheaper paint or 50 bucks store credit a day and free field and air fees. so i was making around 6-7 bucks worth of goods and services with no benefits. all i have to say is that those refs better be the best refs in your state if they are getting that (not that i think they shouldnt but if any of them were slacking i wouldnt feel bad about shooting them a few times knowing they are getting paid that well)

personally if there was a field that was selling paint for the same or just a few bucks more than the retail store (not 10 bucks more, like 5 tops) i would happily frequent that field more and probably be willing to spend a little more money or more frequently if im getting a good or at least reasonable deal. so basically look at it as over all income not income on sales

from working at a field i see the side of BYOP not being great if not just being a PIA for all sides but i also think that paint gets jacked up way to much at fields

-matt

[flying Dutchman]

We've always been a Field Paint Only facility. In the 20 plus years of operation it's been the only way to operate that controls many safety issues.

I guess I'm missing the big point, but it seems to be an issue to me, when a field has 5-6 different makes of paint and as many bore sizes. And the players can change size under fire. That means a possible velocity change.

It's the same thing as changing a barrel in the middle of the game. No player in their right mind would think that safe without rechecking their speed. So if were behind a bunker and you run out of paint, I toss you a tube and you load and fire you know have an unchronographed gun.

When we buy our paint we test the 3-4 types we like and check them for consistancy over the chroney using several types of markers. We do a break test using a weight stack to see where the shell lets go. We do accuracy tests at field speeds. Then and only then we take the paint that scored the best and we order 100 plus cases. 3 weeks later we do it again. That's part of the service we offer. Of course we do food and beverage but at 75 cents a soda and a $1 a burger we sell that stuff at cost for the players benefit.


I guess it's all in your point of view. A professional field isn't a backyard thing, Some players love it others hate it.

And to be clear wrenches on the field gets you a quick trip to the parking lot.

We even tried reball so the folks could play cheaper. $10.00 per hour for reball unlimited balls. Your could shoot 20,000 balls for $10. Couldn't make it work, to many people wouldn't admit they were hit! Got to love that.

[SR_matt]

ve never really checked how much difference you can get between barrel sizes but from swapping backs and stuff i never remember a jump as much as more consistency vs less consistency. i think as long as your chronoing under 285 you wont get a spike enough to get it over 300 (but physics is weird and may totally smack me over the head with opposite results)

from the amount of testing you do on the paint i would happily play at your field and pay 5-10 more a case than what is normal retail but i would also assume that you stand behind it enough that if there is an issue to swap the paint or refund the paint if for any reason there is a bad case.

that type of field might not appeal to some younger players or players on a tight budget but personally even though i am on a tight budget being a college student i would pay for it at your field.


what you could do is like once a month or some time interval do a BYOP day, or have a BYOP section every so often (not sure how big your set up is so weather or not you could run multiple groups at one time) but if you were to do that i would assume you would charge 5 bucks a person or what ever more just like how tournies have the BYOP fee.

personally i would not want to go to a field and play BYOP, i dont like getting hit with paint that will not break thus leading to whining people, paint that is to thin to tell that it broke, or paint that is going to stain things like my lenses and stain my skin for days (dont have an issue with getting messy just dont like having what looks like a rash randomly on my body). playing with friends BYOP wouldnt be as big a deal to me because none of use would waste money on cheap junk... at least on purpose or if its field paint we dont have a choice with.

-matt

[KKPASA]

In my area we have one indoor and one outdoor field to play. The paint at each place is FPO. I've yet to see a BYOP day at either field. The paint that each field offers is decent paint however, both fields charge $65 a case. With entry and all day air I'm at $90 for a couple of hours of play, causing me to have to wait at least two months between play. If these fields offered more than one choice of paint, at different rates, I could play longer and more often.

[SR_matt]

i forgot to mention that i have never played at a field where there was only 1 type of paint. even at huge scenarios they have at least 2 types of paint.

i used to work at a field that had 3 or 4 levels of paint. white box, mid grade (midnight, tork), higher grade (chronic, marbs iirc) then some times some high grade (ultimate chronic aka chronic 420, some of the anarchy or things of that level but not very common). some times we had low low end like brown box/ 2nds/3rds. i never experienced any increased chrono issues and also with that we could easily cover our selves if we got a bad pallet of paint. while it may be a little harder on the management side the customer satisfaction i think ends up being much higher due to size, brand, color, brittleness preferences

-matt

[Chronobreak]

im not sure if there is a question here still, or if there ever was.

the thread seemed to be a question weather to go FPO or not, then it turned into a justification.

I think robnix sumed it up best

as for me it sounds like your in the Paintball industry...Get out!

Im gonna tell you what my boss always tells me, "we arent in the paintball business, we are in the entertainment business our products just happen to be paintballs and accesories"

[robnix]

All this being said, flyingdutchman runs the best field in Maine, so regardless what our opinions are, he's doing something right. I just wish there were some good pictures of his fields after reading this.

http://www.pbreview.com/fields/reviews/1386/

[warbeak2099]

Fields make a lot of money off of paint. I'd rather not deprive my local field of that income and have them have to raise the entrance fees or charge me for air fills. Sure my local field charges 55 a case. But admission is $10 for 5 hours of play and free air the entire time.

Plus we've got a super modern and clean indoor X-Ball facility. I'd say the prices are pretty decent for the quality of the field. I'd rather support the field and have a better experience than have it turn into some slum that charges up the butthole for entry and air fills.

[cerrik]

You could always run with other novel ideas, like sponsering teams by giving them "Home Team" status... in return for things like free entry and discounts on paint, work a deal where they come ref for you at times and help with field maint. that way, you can lower the amount of paid staff you have on hand.

Or, for those that are $ conscious or even like a few I've seen on here, have trouble using all that paint each time. Set up a storage system. Zip tie the players name to there extra bag(s) and store it for the next time they come in to play. It's still field paint, and you have it in your possession so you can be sure it's not crap, and it's not been put in the freeze. With your eye on it, you can watch it, toss it if it sits too long. Record the date and players name and then give them some sort of discount because they are a returning customer who will more than likely buy a new case from you right then and there.

Not perfect solutions I'll admit. But it's a start to lower some costs and a possible way to ease everyone's qualms about FPO.

[Twistedpsyche]

Where in Maine is your field, what's the name? I live in NH and after what I hear I would be interested in checking it out.

BTW try a BYOP day maybe once a month. You might be surprised.
And most of the BYOP events I go to all ban certain types of paint like Monster Ball.

[flying Dutchman]

Fields make a lot of money off of paint. I'd rather not deprive my local field of that income and have them have to raise the entrance fees or charge me for air fills. Sure my local field charges 55 a case. But admission is $10 for 5 hours of play and free air the entire time.

Plus we've got a super modern and clean indoor X-Ball facility. I'd say the prices are pretty decent for the quality of the field. I'd rather support the field and have a better experience than have it turn into some slum that charges up the butthole for entry and air fills.

Thank you warbreak, That was a point I was waiting for someone to make. If you let a field make a little money they reinvest it in their facility. Good for everyone. BYOP can strangle a fields income and then you see sheaper grades paint selling for too much, old and stale paint because they can't sell it. FPO helps a field to do well BYOP can put them into survival mode just trying to stay in.

[flying Dutchman]

Where in Maine is your field, what's the name? I live in NH and after what I hear I would be interested in checking it out.

BTW try a BYOP day maybe once a month. You might be surprised.
And most of the BYOP events I go to all ban certain types of paint like Monster Ball.


Flying Dutchman Paintball In Guilford Maine, Dead center of the state. We hold tourneys both speedball and traditional (woodsball) We offer 3 scenarios a year and once we get to know a player we can do invitationals. An invitational is a private event where you can't get in unless we've offered it to you. We have one coming up in March where the indoor will be played in absolute darkness the only lights will be the tactical lights on our guns. Once you squeeze the trigger the flashlight comes on and everybody knows where you are. The lights are filtered green and red to sort the teams. This is a level of play we keep above the public for the players that have earned it. Play nice, very safe, enjoy the sport and be generally helpful to the field or the event and you'll get an invitation. The Invitational play is FREE

[flying Dutchman]

To refocus on the issue it's the pros and cons of Field paint only anf Bring Your Own Paint.

So far it looks like bring your own paint is cheaper for the player but harder on the field owner

The safety issues don't seem to concern very many players

Many players seem to hold the beleif that the fields sell crappy paint so they have to bring their own. Some may have done so on purpose some fields may have been driven to it because they don't have the profit margin to sell better paint.

I think the the entire problem is to be laid at the feet of the industry. To much supply not enough demand. As the price of paint drops it's harder to make a profit margin on it.

Now here's a fact I'll share with you folks. When I order an entire skid of paint you think they would cut me a break, maybe like $10 a case less then you could buy a single case for. That would be a profit margin for the business, It wouldn't hurt the players a bit. They don't I save betwenn 2 and 3 dollars a case. Not much of a volume discount is it.

[SR_matt]

by your FPO rules do the players have to have bought your paint THAT DAY at the field?

i have never played at a field that had that strict of FPO except at scenarios, all the places i go to will allow you to bring paint from their stores or paint that was used at their field before that you still have some left over (also most of those places turn over brands and fills a lot so having old paint can be from weekend to weekend)

if you do have it as FPO for the day then you need to be selling half cases and bags and at reasonable prices/ same equivalent as full cases.
-matt

[PumpPlayer]

It's actually quite a simple issue, in my opinion.

I prefer field paint only when that system is properly implemented.

When the field paint only system is broken, I prefer to be able to bring my own.



I'll give an example of two fields, one FPO, one BYOP. I won't name them but understand that these are major fields that I play on regularly.

FPO - They have been switching the paint around between events lately and the quality has been up and down. The paint is fairly expensive but they do try to get quality paint and they do make most of their money on paint sales. The nice thing about this field is that everyone has the same paint. You have the same paint-related problems as everyone else out there so there's no bias. Sure, everyone would like for the paint to always shoot well but that's never going to happen. By having a single brand of high-quality paint available, you eliminate any advantage that can be gained through the paint. I really, really like this.

BYOP - They sell paint at the field - various brands and quality. Sometimes you get a good batch, sometimes you don't. The field fee is also very high to compensate for the low paint sales. I have yet to get a batch of paint from this field that has shot well. The only solution is to BYO because the system is "broken." Good paint is a major advantage in the game. In a situation where good paint cannot be purchased but CAN be brought, those players who have the best paint have a significant advantage over others. Obviously, this leads to further handicapping of new players and/or renters who didn't know that they should have brought their own paint. As a recreational player, I don't like to see the new guys at such a huge disadvantage. Note that this would be the same problem if the field were FPO but had many brands to choose from, as new players would likely get the cheapest stuff and be at a disadvantage. Perhaps it's easy to argue that it's their own fault but really, doesn't the field have a responsibility to help new players and renters have a good time as well? I think cheap paint is a hindrance to that.



I think the perfect setup is to have a single brand of high-quality paint, FPO. It's fair for every player, helps keep the field fees down, provides better revenue for the field at a fair cost to the players and actually helps out the new players, even if they complain that the paint is too expensive.

[XMAG-XT00125]

It has to be field paint only, and the reason, as has been said before is the field operator has to make his money somewhere to cover overheads, field lease, power, insurance, wages etc..
The easiest and most effective way to do this is thru paint sales, not field fees...
Unless the field operator is running other amusements/sports to offset costs, this has to be done.
I see a number of posts here comment on bad paint and blame the field operator. i have seen 3 reasons for bad paint at fields.

1: The field op is running paint thru as cheap as he can to maximize profit.
2: The field op has a paint supplier who doesnt have a continuous supply of good quality paint and even when he does, the quality of two batches of the same paint can vary quite a bit in quality.
3: The people attending the field have complained about prices and as a reaction to this the field op has reduced prices and of course the quality of paint he supplies because at the price the public wants to pay, he can quite simply, just not afford the more expensive paint.

Cheers, Marty

[Chaos_Theory!]

Pretty much every field out there charges for BYOP so they make a profit anyway. Not taking cost into consideration is insane. Sure charging a little extra for paint is ok but a lot of fields go overboard. Im going to play today and went with BYOP and paying a fee rather than buying field paint. Why? Because it cost me $60 to buy 2 cases of the same paint the field has and charges $60 a case for. Most fields around me get a lot of their money from private parties anyway. Its easier for them to screw the once a year guys over by charging 3X the actual cost of the paint on top of field fees than it is to screw the regulars over.

[dstud2000]

I don't mind FPO if the paint is good. As I have stated the problem in my area is that the quality of the paint just isn't there to justify marked up price that the fpo fields charge.

Flying Dutchman, if the fields around me operated like you, or if you were in my area or I lived in your area, I would have no problem with your fpo rule. $60 a case for marbs or evil is a great price. Online stores aren't much different in price for those 2 paints.

How do you price partial cases? $30 for 1/2 case and $15 for 1/4 case?

I did ask one field why they use the paint they use (pro caps field grade) versus a higher grade paint, and the response I got was that the higher grade paints don't work well in tippmanns. I called foul on this owner. I ran a tippmann for quite a while and still use one when the weather is at its worst or as a loaner and never had a problem shooting higher end paint.

FPO is a double edge sword in my opinion. If ran like Flying Dutchman :headbang: If ran like it is in my area :cuss:

[Mechanic79]

I like to BYOP because I'm not going to shoot crap through my guns. I prefer shooting midnight or better. I like small bore paint as well. I don't mind paying BYOP fees to support the field. but I'm not going to purchase crappy field paint.

[SR_matt]

I don't mind FPO if the paint is good. As I have stated the problem in my area is that the quality of the paint just isn't there to justify marked up price that the fpo fields charge.

Flying Dutchman, if the fields around me operated like you, or if you were in my area or I lived in your area, I would have no problem with your fpo rule. $60 a case for marbs or evil is a great price. Online stores aren't much different in price for those 2 paints.

How do you price partial cases? $30 for 1/2 case and $15 for 1/4 case?

I did ask one field why they use the paint they use (pro caps field grade) versus a higher grade paint, and the response I got was that the higher grade paints don't work well in tippmanns. I called foul on this owner. I ran a tippmann for quite a while and still use one when the weather is at its worst or as a loaner and never had a problem shooting higher end paint.

FPO is a double edge sword in my opinion. If ran like Flying Dutchman :headbang: If ran like it is in my area :cuss:

well some of the higher ends paints that are more brittle will bust in a tippy depending on how it is set up, just like most paints that are brittle will break in my mag on the bolt (but i choose to deal with that for the highest efficiency)

-matt

[txaggie08]

I, as a player, will always buy field paint IF it is REASONABLY priced. That means no more than 10-25 bucks more than what I could get it for outside the field. If your price gouging, I'm not supporting you period. I am very well aware of what a case costs the average field btw, I know EXACTLY what kind of money we make on ours....it aint as much as you think it is.

We stock spank for 55$ a case as our lowest grade, and have fresh paint on site every week. Cryptic usually goes for 60$, and we get proball in that's going for 60-65(we cut people a break when we can't get the cryptic)


From a referee's standpoint, FPO is what keeps us afloat. We have, in recent months, allowed a compromise though. We will allow you to BYOP for a 15$ per person fee. between the 9.99$ field/air fee, and the 15$ BYOP fee, we make enough money to at least pay for the air you use and for the referee(at least most of his salary).


You have to be willing to pay to keep your local field running. You have to remember, high quality fields with trained and paid staff's need to make a certain amount in fees off each player to keep above water. If you refuse to live with FPO, get ready to go back to 30$+ field and air fees....

[ljpiller]

Provided the field can supply fresh paint FPO doesn't bother me a whole lot. If they do have that policy it would be nice to have a few brands to choose from too. The cost doesn't really bother me, I barely shoot enough to make a difference - and what I am paying for is the convenience of not having to go out to buy paint.

However, the problem happens when you have a field that does not know how to properly store paint, or they buy it in such large quantities that it is old by the time they go through it. You are at the mercy of their storage capabilities, and it's frustrating to know you could do a better job yourself.

[Hexis]

Personally i prefer FPO, with the caveat that the filed has decent paint. I'll gladly pay a bit more if there are mutiple paint options at the field.

I prefer FPO for safety reasons mostly. A number of local (Minneapolis/St Paul area) fields do BYOP for a fee. With those places I end getting shot by the nastiest crap. Hard as a rock, rank, staining, all kinds of crap. I would rather see the field be able to buy decent paint and make sure everyone is safe. On top of that the filed should make money off the paint, and that's a healthy thing (gotta like a business that stays in business).

[txaggie08]

Forgot to add the safety issue in.....


If it has a metallic blue shell, it's banned, period.

[Lohman446]

A lot of people want a lot of things. These two kids in the other day wanted me to work on there car for free - and got a tad bit upset when I wouldn't. Never did figure that one out.

You are not in the business to make friends. You are in the business to offer goods and services at a fair price that allows you to be in business over the long term.

I have no qualms with field paint only. Especially if they are using high quality field paint and charging appropriately for it. What annoys me is when it gets out of hand ($75 for the "cheap" stuff + high entrance fees at IAO was out of hand).

I think the safety issues you are trying to come up with to cover are at best questionable. You could simply make it BYOP with "approved" paints and have an approved list if that was the main concern.

Personally, if it were me, I would charge $60 (or whatever) a day entrance fee and hand a case of paint to each player with paid entrance. If they want to bring in outside paint beyond that then fine - you've still sold each and every player a case. Personally I normally shoot about one case a day and have always cringed for the people who shoot two or three and cannot hunt the best possible deal on it.

[drg]

Well you could always prohibit paint sharing. I personally don't borrow paint, if I'm running low I move up, maybe make a suicide move, or play decoy if I run out.


Forgot to add the safety issue in.....

If it has a metallic blue shell, it's banned, period.

What's this all about?

[SR_matt]

only thing i could see is that ball bearings could be hidden in/confused for that color of shell... not sure how it could really do that much damage if the air pushing out the BB is the same for something 1/50th the weight i doubt it could go very far.

-matt

[txaggie08]

What's this all about?


All the really bad, really rock hard garbage, that comes in buckets(or the put it in a "tactical performance box and charge 10$ more for it) comes from the same place. It's all essentially "monster ball", and it's all an extremely thick shelled metallic blue, with a yellow oil based fill. We do not allow any of it, I don't care what brand it was sold under. Anything that a spyder will consistently not chop but just deforms......that's not safe. I've bled three times playing pb, twice was from that junk.

It IS a safety issue at that point, it has nothing to do with money. I'm not going to stand on the field as a ref and get shot with it either.

[drg]

Interesting. I've shot quite a bit of Inertia that was blue metallic shell.

[dstud2000]

the only blue metallic shell I have seen with a yellow fill has been monster ball, all the rest have been different color fills than yellow and were good paint.

Not meaning to hijack the thread but which paints are you reffering to that are the same as monsterball?

[Chaos_Theory!]

$60 a case for marbs or evil is a great price.

????

I get marbs and ultra for 40-45 all the time, id say 60 is prett damn steep.

[Pneumagger]

Well you could always prohibit paint sharing. I personally don't borrow paint, if I'm running low I move up, maybe make a suicide move, or play decoy if I run out.
I disagree here. What about stck class and pumpers who use maybe 200balls all day?
I have no problem with giving a buddy a ten (or lunch) for 2 pods worth of paint.
Stock class is awesome. $35 gets you all day fun and drunk at the end of the day. :)

I don't think there are any BYOP fields near me
The field I like in Canton is pretty reasonable. 3 grades of paints ($35/$45/$55), $10 entry, $10 for all day air.
Granted, the $35 is shootable paint but the midgrade is awesome paint for the price.
Personally my strategy is to split a case of midgrade with a firend and pump all day. Then in the last game or two blow through 400 rounds.


To answer the OP's question...

My Preference: I would prefer a field is a hybrid style if such is allowed. Let players bring thier own paint (subjected to a posted prohibited list of brands) if they so choose. The "BYOP fee" could simply be your projeted profit margin should they buy field paint. (Say you get paint on a skid for $35/case and charge $50/case... the BYOP fee should be $15). If they buy field paint, make sure it was stored properly and rotated regulary to keep it fresh. And be open and explain why the policy is there, because the paint is a large portion of the field's income. If the field owner can make BYOP and field paint equal in cost to the player, the player chooses convenience (field paint) or preference (byop) at no impact to the field's profit. It's a win-win situation. Plus, as an owner you can only stock one midgrade brand of paint and let people who demand cheaper or tournament paint bring thier own.


The Problem: I understand that the field's profit comes from economies of scale... they buy in bulk and pocket the difference when selling individually. If too many players bring thier own paint the field can't move as large a volume and thier profit margin for field paint drops... meaning when someone does buy field paint the field makes less profit. The real problem with this is the field musy buy enough paint to create a profit margin and they must quickly use purchased paint or it gets old. If the field owner can keep paint fresh by proper storage and rotation then this problem is helped a little.

Possible Solution: I believe the BYOP fee should be "variable" and posted/advertised.
1) Choose a profit margin for your field paint... say $15. This is really the only variable an owner should have to choose - an otimum price margin exists that pays the bills and attracts players. If a balance cannot be made you need to increase admission, buy cheaper paint, or choose a new business - that's life.
2)Control your market by influencing your players preferences to parallel your needs. When you have fresh inventory sell your field paint at normal $15 markup and with an equal BYOP fee. Every case shot on that field earns you $15 nomatter where it came from. If people start doing BYOP more then your inventory can get old and you decrease the price of inventory to clear your stock... but for every dollar you drop your inventory profit margin you raise the BYOP fee. Every case shot on the field still earns you the same profit. Conversely, say your running low on inventory... lower the BYOP fee and raise the markup on inventory so you don't have to reorder so soon.
3) Advertise on your website or in the proshop the following weekend's fee/prices so players can choose what they will do. The longer ahead and more accurately you can advertise the more ideal the system will work.

Aside from MAP pricing policys on paintballs, online retailers will always have a cheaper/fresher product.

[robnix]

Did you really run out of paint a few Sundays ago?

[lidocaine]

Flying Dutchman Paintball In Guilford Maine, Dead center of the state. We hold tourneys both speedball and traditional (woodsball) We offer 3 scenarios a year and once we get to know a player we can do invitationals. An invitational is a private event where you can't get in unless we've offered it to you. We have one coming up in March where the indoor will be played in absolute darkness the only lights will be the tactical lights on our guns. Once you squeeze the trigger the flashlight comes on and everybody knows where you are. The lights are filtered green and red to sort the teams. This is a level of play we keep above the public for the players that have earned it. Play nice, very safe, enjoy the sport and be generally helpful to the field or the event and you'll get an invitation. The Invitational play is FREE


------ok honestly that is one freaking awesome idea, wish my field'd do that.

[lidocaine]

I would reccomend having a VIP type pass.At my field its 25 dollars normally for all day air and entrance.If you get the VIP pass, its 150 and you get 10 visits with air and entrance.every time you renew the pass after the inital 150, its 100.So it comes down to 10 dollars per day for all day air and entrance.They sell paint at their store at GREAT prices.58 for a case of marbs, like 56-57 for case of evils and 56-57 for a case of all stars.Practically every single patron purchases paint from the store for such great prices.Even though they are only making 2 or 3 dollars per case off of us, they are getting so many people who buy their paint that they still make a killer.

$.02

[CoolHand]

I don't mind FPO when a few simple rules are followed by the field:

1) The paint is FRESH. By fresh I mean less than a month old.
2) The paint is properly handled and stored. By that I mean stored in a cool dark place, boxes rolled 90º every week it sets there, and handled like it's fine china, not tossed and kicked around.
3) Un-opened bags with broken paint in them are replaced, no excuses.
4) The price of said paint must be within 20% of retail/MSRP.

The problem is, around here, FPO means:

1) Stale paint that's been setting in a black metal shed (in MO in July) for three months, still stretch wrapped onto the pallet it was shipped from the manufacturer on. IE, it's lumpy, dimpled, stretchy from moisture and heat, and has weeped liquid to the point of needing to be toweled off before use.

2) Said paint will be from the cheapest possible source, usually Kick'n paint from Springfield MO. This paint is literally the worst stuff ever manufactured. It makes Brass Eagle paint, Monster Ball, and Big Ball look like Marbs.

3) Broken paint in your case? Tough. It's been setting in its own juices for months now, meaning the field can't use it for rental paint. They figure it's better you should take the hit than them.

4) The field will then turn around and sell this ultracheapo paint (which I can buy wholesale for less than $35 a case in less than skid quantities) for between $75-$115 a case, depending on how tightly they have a hold of your short-n-curlys.

I played in a tournament once that had one grade of Kick'n as their FPO paint. It was $95 a case. The paint was so bad, that I could not get it to shoot out of my VIKING. If a Viking can't get it to go down the barrel, ain't nothing else gonna either. Barrel breaks, crushed in the loader, crushed in the feed neck, blown up my the bolt, and on and on and on. I actually had one ball blow up in the vented portion of a 0.697" bore DYE Ultralight, you know, the part where the paint doesn't even touch the barrel anymore! The sizes of those balls varied so much that I had to abandon my Freak (which I only had the 0.691" bore for), and pick up my barrel of last resort, the DYE UL with a bore of 0.697", just to clear the huge balls that were mixed at random into the bags. Of course, the other 60% of the bag shot at about 230 fps because the bore was so much too big.

THAT is why I hate FPO, because around here it stands for F'ing People Over. They can get away with it, because they'll be the only field for 60 miles in any direction. They think they have a captive audience, and they ream you accordingly.

I buy my paint wholesale. I get together with my group of friends, and we decide what brand and how many cases we want, and I buy it. We only buy good brands that I trust to be round and break on the target but not in the marker. When it arrives, I inspect every bag of every case and affect repairs if necessary to save any bags with broken paint in them. I store it correctly, roll the boxes until we play, and nobody has any trouble with the paint. Consequently, my group of friends and I only go to play where we can bring our paint with us. If that means we have to play on my land in the woods, so be it, we have more fun and spend a lot less money to boot.

If we were to play at the Dutchman's field, we'd probably just shoot his paint. The prices are in line, and it sounds like he sells enough to keep it fresh. I don't begrudge a man making a profit, but I balk at out and out butt piracy.

Dutchman - You're having a hard time understanding why we players hate FPO so much because you are doing it in exactly the right way (and have been for long enough that you've started to assume everyone does it that way). If everyone did it that way, there would be a lot less animosity towards the idea of FPO from the players at large. The problem is, the fields like yours are few and far between, and out here basically don't exist. Keep fighting the good fight, and I hope you continue to do well at it, just don't expect people everywhere to get a warm fuzzy about FPO any time soon.

:cheers:

[txaggie08]

Dutchman - You're having a hard time understanding why we players hate FPO so much because you are doing it in exactly the right way (and have been for long enough that you've started to assume everyone does it that way). If everyone did it that way, there would be a lot less animosity towards the idea of FPO from the players at large. The problem is, the fields like yours are few and far between, and out here basically don't exist. Keep fighting the good fight, and I hope you continue to do well at it, just don't expect people everywhere to get a warm fuzzy about FPO any time soon.

:cheers:


That kind of field wouldn't get my business period if they care that little about customers. Ours is bout in smaller quantities from tank's in houston, where it's stored in an air conditioned warehouse. We keep it inside and only buy about a weeks worth at a time. We actually ran out late on sunday last week LOL, but we made it through....


the only blue metallic shell I have seen with a yellow fill has been monster ball, all the rest have been different color fills than yellow and were good paint.

Not meaning to hijack the thread but which paints are you reffering to that are the same as monsterball?

Tactical performance is the same thing. Generally, anything that comes in a plastic bucket is also from the same supplier, 99% of the time.

We will review brands we've never seen before, but the paint we're worried about is all the same thing. I'll get pictures of it sometime, but I assure you it's all the same stuff, we've cut apart almost every brand of it that's shown up. If you shoot it on your own, that's fine, but your not going to pummel our other customers with paint that's VISIBLY two to three times thicker shelled than even something like big ball. It's not the shell colour, or the fill, we have an issue with. it's the paint in specific that's the issue, and I've never seen a GOOD brand of paint that looks like the double dip crap that is monsterball and it's derivatives.

Let me rephrase it "if it's made, looks, and feels, like monsterball, your not shooting it on the field". I'll give you a bag for it, I'll let you go blast through it on our target range, but your not carrying it in your gun. We warn you when you walk in(as a matter of fact there's a sign up before you make it to our register) that it's not allowed, and we make it clear on the phone as well.

We're not the only field who bans it, most places are going to say no to this particular kind, regardless of the name on the box.

We also don't allow BYOP in rental guns now. It got to be a huge issue, because people where dragging in really bad paint, a lot of which is swollen from heat or humidity, and it pops in the spyder and tippmans. We can't afford to have people put two or three of our best guns down in the middle of a busy day because they want to shoot the cheapest crap they can get there hands on. We offer a small group package(supposed to be 5....our owner routinely gives it on a regular basis to smaller) , including 500 paintballs(fresh out of a case of spank), a rental, and all day admission/air, for 30$. Your not going to beat that even if you bring a full case in.

[drg]

I disagree here. What about stck class and pumpers who use maybe 200balls all day?
I have no problem with giving a buddy a ten (or lunch) for 2 pods worth of paint.
Stock class is awesome. $35 gets you all day fun and drunk at the end of the day. :)

I don't think there are any BYOP fields near me
The field I like in Canton is pretty reasonable. 3 grades of paints ($35/$45/$55), $10 entry, $10 for all day air.
Granted, the $35 is shootable paint but the midgrade is awesome paint for the price.
Personally my strategy is to split a case of midgrade with a firend and pump all day. Then in the last game or two blow through 400 rounds.

I think you misunderstood. I'm specifically talking about the OP's "safety concern" with paint sharing *during games*.

[Pneumagger]

I think you misunderstood. I'm specifically talking about the OP's "safety concern" with paint sharing *during games*.
Hey, if some electro paint slinger needs more paint during a game I have no problem tossing him a 10rounder. :rofl:

[drg]

Hey, if some electro paint slinger needs more paint during a game I have no problem tossing him a 10rounder. :rofl:

Jokes aside, the OP has a concern about velocity changing with the introduction of mismatched paint during a game. I think he does have a point, and it's one that is pretty much never addressed. That said, a no-sharing policy should take care of that. Of course it doesn't stop the same player from using mismatched paint; that might be an education issue.

[CoolHand]

Jokes aside, the OP has a concern about velocity changing with the introduction of mismatched paint during a game. I think he does have a point, and it's one that is pretty much never addressed. That said, a no-sharing policy should take care of that. Of course it doesn't stop the same player from using mismatched paint; that might be an education issue.

It depends a lot on how you set up your paint to barrel match.

I generally use a barrel two steps bigger than the size I get using the normal sizing method (handful of balls, pick the size they just barely blow through).

If done that way, you will get a slight velocity spike if you run across a random biggen. Since most of my markers are much happier at 285 than 300 fps, it's pretty much a non-problem.

If you match the bore to the paint, it's really a non-problem. Anything smaller shoots slower, and anything bigger pops in the barrel. Bingo bango, ipso facto, not an issue.

If you use a huge bore barrel, chrony to 300 with super tiny paint, and then feed it big ball, you could maybe end up with a pretty hot marker. But it's not like you'll be shooting 350 fps, even in that extreme situation.

It would be pretty easy to test and see how much variation in paint to barrel match it takes to put a marker shooting 285 fps over the limit. Anyone with a chrony, an OD mic, a barrel kit, and enough paint to sort through and find a bunch of balls exactly the same size, could do this experiment and see for sure.

IMO it's not a big deal, and using that worry as the main explanation for making a field FPO is reaching at best.

If you want to worry about something, worry about the kid doing a superman into the snake and landing on his 4500 psi HPA tank/bomb, which just so happens to be attached to the marker by the weakest part of the whole assembly (IE the hollow threaded nipple on the regulator). Of all the dangers in PB the HPA bottle is by far the worst, but it is handled, filled, and abused like it were made of granite and contained no more energy than a lump of modeling clay, while at the same time, people worry about the effect that paint to barrel match changes (which have to be measured in thousandths of an inch) will have on velocity.

As always, that just my opinion, your mileage may vary. :ninja:

[drg]

It depends a lot on how you set up your paint to barrel match.

I generally use a barrel two steps bigger than the size I get using the normal sizing method (handful of balls, pick the size they just barely blow through).

If done that way, you will get a slight velocity spike if you run across a random biggen. Since most of my markers are much happier at 285 than 300 fps, it's pretty much a non-problem.

If you match the bore to the paint, it's really a non-problem. Anything smaller shoots slower, and anything bigger pops in the barrel. Bingo bango, ipso facto, not an issue.

If you use a huge bore barrel, chrony to 300 with super tiny paint, and then feed it big ball, you could maybe end up with a pretty hot marker. But it's not like you'll be shooting 350 fps, even in that extreme situation.

It would be pretty easy to test and see how much variation in paint to barrel match it takes to put a marker shooting 285 fps over the limit. Anyone with a chrony, an OD mic, a barrel kit, and enough paint to sort through and find a bunch of balls exactly the same size, could do this experiment and see for sure.

IMO it's not a big deal, and using that worry as the main explanation for making a field FPO is reaching at best.

If you want to worry about something, worry about the kid doing a superman into the snake and landing on his 4500 psi HPA tank/bomb, which just so happens to be attached to the marker by the weakest part of the whole assembly (IE the hollow threaded nipple on the regulator). Of all the dangers in PB the HPA bottle is by far the worst, but it is handled, filled, and abused like it were made of granite and contained no more energy than a lump of modeling clay, while at the same time, people worry about the effect that paint to barrel match changes (which have to be measured in thousandths of an inch) will have on velocity.

As always, that just my opinion, your mileage may vary. :ninja:

Speaking for myself and my setups, it would be fairly easy to overchrono by going from a .682 draxxus ball to a .689 nelson ball. And I match paint. There is some leeway as far as getting an oversize ball to fire and not break.

With the advent of open-bolt semis, the general tendency is to run a largeish bore (.689 or so) intended to be capable of shooting all types of paint. Given that many paint brands these days are tiny (I get rollouts sometimes on a .682 back), it is probably not too far-fetched for the situation you noted about to be reality -- a large bore barrel with tiny paint. It's not really that extreme of a situation to think that someone borrowing a pod of larger bore paint could go over chrono.

Is it enough to worry about? From a safety standpoint it's probably debatable. But it can have a huge affect on consistency which is why I don't borrow paint.

[Mechanic79]

A "no paint sharing" rule is lame. the velocity shouldn't change THAT much unless you are right at 300 fps with perfectly matched paint which would be potentially dangerous. Paint sharing provides camaraderie. and I don't see people doing it that often and it's usually 1 pod or less. What if people are sharing the exact same paint?

I try to use paint that DOESN'T stain.

I try NOT to play at fields that are FPO.

[Twistedpsyche]

If a change in the paint size can affect your velocity then we have a couple other issues to consider

#1 Paint is inconsistent. Even the same paint from the same supplier, even in the same case can have rather large (or what we in paintball would call large) differences in size and shape.

#2 Weather can affect your paint. It can swell, it can shrink.

#3 Co2. If someone is using Co2 it can cause spikes and lows in velocity. So are we using Co2 at the field? If safety is a concearn SHOULD we be using Co2? Let's face it, it is much more volatile that compressed air.

#4. What is the field using for a rental gun? Most fields I know use either a 98c or A-5 or something along those lines. Not the most consitent guns out there. I know everone of those I've used can be + or - 5 to 10 fps at any time. How fast your shooting can also affect velocity if you're using an inconsistent marker.

Basicaly what I'm trying to get at here is that saying FPO is for safety may sound nice, but over all I think it's a load. If you wanna tell me "it's how we make our money" Ok, I believe that, that's fine we all need to make money. But please don't tell me it's for safety. Yes there are some real crap paints out there. Monester balls. Every BYOP field I've ever been to bans the stuff. With good reason. It's crap. It's hard, it sticks to everything, blah.

So yeah, that's my $.02

[Hexis]

But please don't tell me it's for safety. Yes there are some real crap paints out there.

There is a significant difference between removing the worst threats to safety and making something completely safe.

If FPO removes some significant threats to safety (bad paint in many forms), then it has improved safety, not perfected it.

There also does not have to be a single reason to require FPO. Improvements in safety and better profit margins are both on their own good reasons. Together they provide mutiple good reasons for a FPO policy.

[93civiccpe]

I'll try to reword my stance,
My problem is that we have a field here in my state that a lot of people believe has the best woodsball fields in the area. I agree with that. Now, it is something like $20 for entrance fee and all day air. The only paint option you usually have is Stinger paint (or whatever else they have cheap) and it costs $65. Now, if it was good quality paint, that was round and not brittle, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me. But when the paint is kept in their "semi-conditioned" hut there, and often has dimples, is not round, and is very brittle, I tend to not play there.

I actually went there one morning and asked to see a case of paint before paying. The manager opened the box and it was so crappy that me and the group I was with (9 other guys) started heading for our cars. He came running out trying to figure out why. Their website states that you can get paint for $45, $55, or $65 at the field, depending on what grade. They only had one type (cheap stinger) and they had it priced at $65. It was your only choice. I explained that to him nicely, and he got really frustrated, at which point I informed him "the customer is always right." And then we left for a different field.

I don't mind supporting a field. I just don't know what the problem is with that owner. They have INCREDIBLE fields. I mean, really really well designed fields with a lot of buildings and timber work.. dug out trenches.. a really nice setup. By why would you do that to your customers with the cost of paint. I do not mind paying $60-$65 if I'm getting good paint, but unfortunately that's not the case there.

[usagi_tetsu]

Personally (and I didn't read everyone else's response, being lazy today) I would obviously prefer BYOP at a field, as I can make my game days more cost effective that way. However, I have enough sense of what it costs to operate a field and how thin a profit margin that type of endeavor really is, and so I don't complain when I play at an FPO field. *shrug* This sport of ours is not terribly lucrative, and we as players have to make sacrifices to keep our favorite fields in business. That being said, if I'm not happy with a field, I make sure to let them know about it and how to fix it, and if they don't fix, I take my business elsewhere and spread news to other players to stay away.

Basically, if the field is surviving by making their profit from paint sales, then we as customers can either have that field stay open by supporting their business, or watch it close down by not. If your field, sir, can get by (because you have enough volume and charge enough on entry fees) and be profitable without FPO, I say go for it. But if not, either the paint flinging populace will support your business because your field is good enough, or they won't, becuase it's not enjoyable enough.

[flying Dutchman]

It depends a lot on how you set up your paint to barrel match.

I generally use a barrel two steps bigger than the size I get using the normal sizing method (handful of balls, pick the size they just barely blow through).

If done that way, you will get a slight velocity spike if you run across a random biggen. Since most of my markers are much happier at 285 than 300 fps, it's pretty much a non-problem.

If you match the bore to the paint, it's really a non-problem. Anything smaller shoots slower, and anything bigger pops in the barrel. Bingo bango, ipso facto, not an issue.

If you use a huge bore barrel, chrony to 300 with super tiny paint, and then feed it big ball, you could maybe end up with a pretty hot marker. But it's not like you'll be shooting 350 fps, even in that extreme situation.

It would be pretty easy to test and see how much variation in paint to barrel match it takes to put a marker shooting 285 fps over the limit. Anyone with a chrony, an OD mic, a barrel kit, and enough paint to sort through and find a bunch of balls exactly the same size, could do this experiment and see for sure.

IMO it's not a big deal, and using that worry as the main explanation for making a field FPO is reaching at best.

If you want to worry about something, worry about the kid doing a superman into the snake and landing on his 4500 psi HPA tank/bomb, which just so happens to be attached to the marker by the weakest part of the whole assembly (IE the hollow threaded nipple on the regulator). Of all the dangers in PB the HPA bottle is by far the worst, but it is handled, filled, and abused like it were made of granite and contained no more energy than a lump of modeling clay, while at the same time, people worry about the effect that paint to barrel match changes (which have to be measured in thousandths of an inch) will have on velocity.

As always, that just my opinion, your mileage may vary. :ninja:


Okay folks here's an example of the miss match of paint and barrels. Today we had a game on our indoor field. This gentleman zeroed his speed in with a 227, 229, 230 fps. Nice string looking good. Thought he might change the freek kit insert. Put ina different size and headed for the field. I brought him back and asked for 3 more shots. the first was 298 the second was 278 the third was 302. So if changing the barrel size can do that so can changing the paint size. Before you ask were using our Radar Chronograph. Paid too much to think it not accurate. There's the facts folks!

[flying Dutchman]

I'll try to reword my stance,
My problem is that we have a field here in my state that a lot of people believe has the best woodsball fields in the area. I agree with that. Now, it is something like $20 for entrance fee and all day air. The only paint option you usually have is Stinger paint (or whatever else they have cheap) and it costs $65. Now, if it was good quality paint, that was round and not brittle, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me. But when the paint is kept in their "semi-conditioned" hut there, and often has dimples, is not round, and is very brittle, I tend to not play there.

I actually went there one morning and asked to see a case of paint before paying. The manager opened the box and it was so crappy that me and the group I was with (9 other guys) started heading for our cars. He came running out trying to figure out why. Their website states that you can get paint for $45, $55, or $65 at the field, depending on what grade. They only had one type (cheap stinger) and they had it priced at $65. It was your only choice. I explained that to him nicely, and he got really frustrated, at which point I informed him "the customer is always right." And then we left for a different field.

I don't mind supporting a field. I just don't know what the problem is with that owner. They have INCREDIBLE fields. I mean, really really well designed fields with a lot of buildings and timber work.. dug out trenches.. a really nice setup. By why would you do that to your customers with the cost of paint. I do not mind paying $60-$65 if I'm getting good paint, but unfortunately that's not the case there.

I agree with you if you're getting charged big bucks for crap speak up. But for that very same price if I sell you Chronic, evil, all star or marbs, would you be happy?

[flying Dutchman]

It's actually quite a simple issue, in my opinion.

I prefer field paint only when that system is properly implemented.

When the field paint only system is broken, I prefer to be able to bring my own.



I'll give an example of two fields, one FPO, one BYOP. I won't name them but understand that these are major fields that I play on regularly.

FPO - They have been switching the paint around between events lately and the quality has been up and down. The paint is fairly expensive but they do try to get quality paint and they do make most of their money on paint sales. The nice thing about this field is that everyone has the same paint. You have the same paint-related problems as everyone else out there so there's no bias. Sure, everyone would like for the paint to always shoot well but that's never going to happen. By having a single brand of high-quality paint available, you eliminate any advantage that can be gained through the paint. I really, really like this.

BYOP - They sell paint at the field - various brands and quality. Sometimes you get a good batch, sometimes you don't. The field fee is also very high to compensate for the low paint sales. I have yet to get a batch of paint from this field that has shot well. The only solution is to BYO because the system is "broken." Good paint is a major advantage in the game. In a situation where good paint cannot be purchased but CAN be brought, those players who have the best paint have a significant advantage over others. Obviously, this leads to further handicapping of new players and/or renters who didn't know that they should have brought their own paint. As a recreational player, I don't like to see the new guys at such a huge disadvantage. Note that this would be the same problem if the field were FPO but had many brands to choose from, as new players would likely get the cheapest stuff and be at a disadvantage. Perhaps it's easy to argue that it's their own fault but really, doesn't the field have a responsibility to help new players and renters have a good time as well? I think cheap paint is a hindrance to that.



I think the perfect setup is to have a single brand of high-quality paint, FPO. It's fair for every player, helps keep the field fees down, provides better revenue for the field at a fair cost to the players and actually helps out the new players, even if they complain that the paint is too expensive.

Well said I can see you know your stuff.

[flying Dutchman]

Hey, if some electro paint slinger needs more paint during a game I have no problem tossing him a 10rounder. :rofl:
Tell him you'll trade him tube for tube! hehe

[CoolHand]

Okay folks here's an example of the miss match of paint and barrels. Today we had a game on our indoor field. This gentleman zeroed his speed in with a 227, 229, 230 fps. Nice string looking good. Thought he might change the freek kit insert. Put ina different size and headed for the field. I brought him back and asked for 3 more shots. the first was 298 the second was 278 the third was 302. So if changing the barrel size can do that so can changing the paint size. Before you ask were using our Radar Chronograph. Paid too much to think it not accurate. There's the facts folks!

Three shots does not a working theory make, but for the purposes of discussion we will assume that this is 100% repeatable in all instances.

The data I'd like to see is the variance over an entire case of paint. This will mimic the conditions of requiring FPO. It is a fact that paintballs even from the same case will have variations in ball OD. This is an observable phenomena, but it can also be easily measured with a mic and a couple of hours.

If a change in OD of the ball (or ID of barrel) of no more than 0.016" (the smallest Freak bore to the largest Freak bore) makes a 75 fps change in velocity, then I would bet you will see nearly that inside a single case of paint. I would not be surprised at all to see a standard deviation of 0.004"-0.007" inside of a single case of paint. At 5 fps per 0.001" of OD deviation, that's a swing of -+20 to -+35 fps within the same case of paint, to say nothing of the next or the one after that, even from the same manufacturer and batch.

What I'm saying is that the manufacturing process that creates paintballs is not itself accurate or controllable enough that you can even come close to predicting the relation of ball OD from ball to ball inside the same case, to say nothing of the relation from case to case, even within the same manufacturer.

There may very well be an extreme correlation between barrel size and velocity (though I have not found it to be as stark as your example, let's assume for now that it is). Even if that is true, the risk of hot shots is not greatly (or possibly even significantly enough to measure) reduced by forcing players to only use paint from one manufacturer. The variation in OD will be there regardless of who is making the paint. Regardless if some brands on average are smaller or larger than other brands on average, the risk you seek to eliminate is still present, and going to FPO as a means to reduce said risk is a token step at best.

I'm glad you think about safety, and I'm glad you sell your FP at good prices and take care of it, and I know most fields need to be FPO to make a profit and stay in business. I'm fine with that, and I think most people are too. What kind of irritates me is that you refuse to just come out and say that the reason you need your field to be FPO is monetary. It may seem like it sounds better to say it's for safety, but that is a contrived reason, and regardless of whatever anecdotal data you come up with that you think justifies you to declare "There's the facts folks!", it will still be a contrived reason.

Until you put down some honest to god data, covering paint from two or three manufacturers both against one another, and against the contents of the same case, it's only your opinion.

My opinion is that it doesn't make that much difference. I could test to prove it (just the same as you can), but in the end I just don't care enough to spend the day or two it's going to take to run the tests. I can live with it just being my opinion.

You however, if you're going to try and sell people on the FPO thing as a safety measure, might want to undertake those tests and really see if you're right. At least then you'd have some actual data to put behind your arguments when someone calls you on it. Hell, it may turn out that you're absolutely right, and FPO will be mandated by insurance carriers as a proven risk reducer. I've been wrong before. ;)

But until that happens, I'm gonna go ahead and file that assertion into the same bin as JD's AI Revy board, and Jack Rice's magical Alien trajectories. You bring the claim, you bring the data, simple as that.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike you (hell, I don't even know you), I just have a low BS tolerance (which seems to be diminishing rapidly as I age), and I'm an outspoken A-Hole to boot. You can see where I'm going with this . . . . . . .

:cheers:

[SR_matt]

also just something i thought about, unless that guy who "changed the insert" was watched the whole time how can we say for sure nothing else was changed on the marker. also there are so many things that cause fps fluxes.

but i had a pump gun set up to the point of shooting +/- 1 fps on a bad day, (now it is shooting +/- 2 fps about average but i changed some stuff and started to run co2 due to the tank size but i digress) so matter what paint i put in it i was getting no fluctuation on the fps so, at least in my situation, paint variations mean nothing to extremely little. ill agree that big changes in size matches will give some fluctuation or consistency changes but i really think there are many more things in the guns that will give changes (heck my mag now is pretty jumpy (i had it perfect keeping really consistent but then it was just a little to high for a field, turned it down just a touch and now its all over the place no matter what i do to it it still is after over a year.

so basically while barrels may change some fps readings i would bet just normal gun spikes would be more than what the barrel gives.
-matt

[93civiccpe]

I agree with you if you're getting charged big bucks for crap speak up. But for that very same price if I sell you Chronic, evil, all star or marbs, would you be happy?

You hit my point on the head Flying Dutchman. If they had quality paint, I'd happily pay the price. One of the things that irks me the most is that they have printed on their advertisements as well as on their website that they sell 3 grades of paint at the field.. white box, midgrade, and tournament. (ranging from 45, 55, & 65). Then when you get there and they are forcing you to use the $65 paint as it is all they have available, and it is crappy paint, I have no problem walking away. If they truly had all 3 types of paint, I would use the $55 or $65 stuff happily. But $65 for dimpled, brittle stinger just burns me up, and makes me not want to come back. It sounds like you are doing the right thing, just don't ever make the mistake above, as it could cost you people.

I typically purchase items from my local shop to support them, even if I could get it cheaper online. I like seeing and holding what I'm purchasing and getting it right away. Not to mention I know a lot of the guys who work there and it is nice to shoot the bull and see the new stuff that has come in. I love supporting the local guys, and have never had a problem playing at FPO fields, as long as they offer good quality paint and don't kill me too much on the price. $60 - $65 is perfectly fine as long as it is quality paint.

[Maghog]

Three shots does not a working theory make, but for the purposes of discussion we will assume that this is 100% repeatable in all instances.

The data I'd like to see is the variance over an entire case of paint. This will mimic the conditions of requiring FPO. It is a fact that paintballs even from the same case will have variations in ball OD. This is an observable phenomena, but it can also be easily measured with a mic and a couple of hours.

If a change in OD of the ball (or ID of barrel) of no more than 0.016" (the smallest Freak bore to the largest Freak bore) makes a 75 fps change in velocity, then I would bet you will see nearly that inside a single case of paint. I would not be surprised at all to see a standard deviation of 0.004"-0.007" inside of a single case of paint. At 5 fps per 0.001" of OD deviation, that's a swing of -+20 to -+35 fps within the same case of paint, to say nothing of the next or the one after that, even from the same manufacturer and batch.

What I'm saying is that the manufacturing process that creates paintballs is not itself accurate or controllable enough that you can even come close to predicting the relation of ball OD from ball to ball inside the same case, to say nothing of the relation from case to case, even within the same manufacturer.

There may very well be an extreme correlation between barrel size and velocity (though I have not found it to be as stark as your example, let's assume for now that it is). Even if that is true, the risk of hot shots is not greatly (or possibly even significantly enough to measure) reduced by forcing players to only use paint from one manufacturer. The variation in OD will be there regardless of who is making the paint. Regardless if some brands on average are smaller or larger than other brands on average, the risk you seek to eliminate is still present, and going to FPO as a means to reduce said risk is a token step at best.

I'm glad you think about safety, and I'm glad you sell your FP at good prices and take care of it, and I know most fields need to be FPO to make a profit and stay in business. I'm fine with that, and I think most people are too. What kind of irritates me is that you refuse to just come out and say that the reason you need your field to be FPO is monetary. It may seem like it sounds better to say it's for safety, but that is a contrived reason, and regardless of whatever anecdotal data you come up with that you think justifies you to declare "There's the facts folks!", it will still be a contrived reason.

Until you put down some honest to god data, covering paint from two or three manufacturers both against one another, and against the contents of the same case, it's only your opinion.

My opinion is that it doesn't make that much difference. I could test to prove it (just the same as you can), but in the end I just don't care enough to spend the day or two it's going to take to run the tests. I can live with it just being my opinion.

You however, if you're going to try and sell people on the FPO thing as a safety measure, might want to undertake those tests and really see if you're right. At least then you'd have some actual data to put behind your arguments when someone calls you on it. Hell, it may turn out that you're absolutely right, and FPO will be mandated by insurance carriers as a proven risk reducer. I've been wrong before. ;)

But until that happens, I'm gonna go ahead and file that assertion into the same bin as JD's AI Revy board, and Jack Rice's magical Alien trajectories. You bring the claim, you bring the data, simple as that.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike you (hell, I don't even know you), I just have a low BS tolerance (which seems to be diminishing rapidly as I age), and I'm an outspoken A-Hole to boot. You can see where I'm going with this . . . . . . .

:cheers:


Beautiful.
:cheers:

[flying Dutchman]

Three shots does not a working theory make, but for the purposes of discussion we will assume that this is 100% repeatable in all instances.

The data I'd like to see is the variance over an entire case of paint. This will mimic the conditions of requiring FPO. It is a fact that paintballs even from the same case will have variations in ball OD. This is an observable phenomena, but it can also be easily measured with a mic and a couple of hours.

If a change in OD of the ball (or ID of barrel) of no more than 0.016" (the smallest Freak bore to the largest Freak bore) makes a 75 fps change in velocity, then I would bet you will see nearly that inside a single case of paint. I would not be surprised at all to see a standard deviation of 0.004"-0.007" inside of a single case of paint. At 5 fps per 0.001" of OD deviation, that's a swing of -+20 to -+35 fps within the same case of paint, to say nothing of the next or the one after that, even from the same manufacturer and batch.

What I'm saying is that the manufacturing process that creates paintballs is not itself accurate or controllable enough that you can even come close to predicting the relation of ball OD from ball to ball inside the same case, to say nothing of the relation from case to case, even within the same manufacturer.

There may very well be an extreme correlation between barrel size and velocity (though I have not found it to be as stark as your example, let's assume for now that it is). Even if that is true, the risk of hot shots is not greatly (or possibly even significantly enough to measure) reduced by forcing players to only use paint from one manufacturer. The variation in OD will be there regardless of who is making the paint. Regardless if some brands on average are smaller or larger than other brands on average, the risk you seek to eliminate is still present, and going to FPO as a means to reduce said risk is a token step at best.

I'm glad you think about safety, and I'm glad you sell your FP at good prices and take care of it, and I know most fields need to be FPO to make a profit and stay in business. I'm fine with that, and I think most people are too. What kind of irritates me is that you refuse to just come out and say that the reason you need your field to be FPO is monetary. It may seem like it sounds better to say it's for safety, but that is a contrived reason, and regardless of whatever anecdotal data you come up with that you think justifies you to declare "There's the facts folks!", it will still be a contrived reason.

Until you put down some honest to god data, covering paint from two or three manufacturers both against one another, and against the contents of the same case, it's only your opinion.

My opinion is that it doesn't make that much difference. I could test to prove it (just the same as you can), but in the end I just don't care enough to spend the day or two it's going to take to run the tests. I can live with it just being my opinion.

You however, if you're going to try and sell people on the FPO thing as a safety measure, might want to undertake those tests and really see if you're right. At least then you'd have some actual data to put behind your arguments when someone calls you on it. Hell, it may turn out that you're absolutely right, and FPO will be mandated by insurance carriers as a proven risk reducer. I've been wrong before. ;)

But until that happens, I'm gonna go ahead and file that assertion into the same bin as JD's AI Revy board, and Jack Rice's magical Alien trajectories. You bring the claim, you bring the data, simple as that.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike you (hell, I don't even know you), I just have a low BS tolerance (which seems to be diminishing rapidly as I age), and I'm an outspoken A-Hole to boot. You can see where I'm going with this . . . . . . .

:cheers:

Don't worry about upsetting me, this aia a discussion of fact conducted by intellects which should nbe able to withstand a differance of opinion. Your right that a larget test would offer more data and thus be more accurate. However shooting an entire case to establish it's quality control level seems a mute point when you say each case will vary as there would be no paint left to play with once the test was concluded. But I agree with the concept larger test better accuracey.
Now that said, and building on your concept that each casde contains a varity of diameters doesn't that back the idea that the paint is poorly made. Isn't consistance the key to accuracy. Would you tolerate a barrel or a regulator that couldn't group your speed closer than 40 fps. Of course you wouldn't. How can anyopne expect a freak system to work when you take a mean average out of your sample and try to match the diameter. Don't we deserve paintball that are round and consitant diameter???

The other point to pull out is the hot shot. As a player you may not worry so much. But as a field owner I do. It's my job to look out for my players, reguardless of their level of experiance. To provide the best I can for them in supplies, rentals and enjoyment when they play. I cannot bring myself to accept the idea that a paint cannot be tamed to behave on a chrono. We shoot a string of 3 at the chrono to let you on. All 3 have to be below speed, if not you reset and come back. We don't allow tools on the field and we do spot check. There is no gray, just black and white. I know that makes me a pain to work with once and a while, but I'm not going to let you get hurt on my watch. Since 1987 the worst injury we covered with a band-aid. That's why you use a field. If not there's lots of backyards.

[CoolHand]

I agree that paintballs should be round and of a consistent diameter, but by and large, they are not, and never will be while they are manufactured as they are now. It's the nature of the beast.

Also, don't assume that since I never said I'd owned and run a field, that I haven't. I've owned a field, and I've ran my own and other fields. I can absolutely see this from both sides of the fence. When I had a field, it was FPO, but it didn't make much difference, 'cause my prices were good and there wasn't any place else around to buy paint from anyway.

At any rate, you're heart's in the right place, and I've said my piece.

I hope you have a good year at your field. It's been rough around here for a couple of years now, we don't have many PB fields left.

:cheers:

[flying Dutchman]

I agree that paintballs should be round and of a consistent diameter, but by and large, they are not, and never will be while they are manufactured as they are now. It's the nature of the beast.

Also, don't assume that since I never said I'd owned and run a field, that I haven't. I've owned a field, and I've ran my own and other fields. I can absolutely see this from both sides of the fence. When I had a field, it was FPO, but it didn't make much difference, 'cause my prices were good and there wasn't any place else around to buy paint from anyway.

At any rate, you're heart's in the right place, and I've said my piece.

I hope you have a good year at your field. It's been rough around here for a couple of years now, we don't have many PB fields left.

:cheers:
Coolhand, If I post up some velocity numbers for a test using 4 types of paint out of the same new gun will you look at them and tell me what you think or what conclussions you can draw?

[CoolHand]

Coolhand, If I post up some velocity numbers for a test using 4 types of paint out of the same new gun will you look at them and tell me what you think or what conclussions you can draw?

Sure.

Post up the whole data set though, and all the specifics regarding the paint and the marker, barrel, etc.

If it's a good test and the data shows it, I've got no problem admitting that I'm wrong, lord knows it happens often enough.

I know that bore size varies inside a case of paint by quite a bit. Three or four years ago, I did a comparative accuracy test for a statistics class I was taking at the time. We used three brands of paint, and tested different bore size to ball OD matches for accuracy under controlled conditions.

In order to maintain our bore to ball match, I dug through several cases of each brand of paint with a mic and a bucket to find 150 balls from each brand, all with exactly the same OD along the seam (down to 0.0001"). I did not record each measurement (there were thousands), as I just had a number I was shooting for, so it was a go/nogo kind of deal, but 0.003"-0.005" of variation inside a single case was not uncommon at all. I was rather surprised at the time. The brands were Scorch, Field Blaze, and Heat, in order from most expensive to least expensive. The Field Blaze was the best of what I had, with Heat being second, and the Scorch actually ended up having the worst variation of the bunch. All the paint was bought from NPS at the same time and was stored for a week prior to the testing in the same place.

Talk about a drag. Because we couldn't risk the balls changing size due to humidity or temperature changes, I had to sort all those balls and we had to conduct the testing all in the same 8 hour period. Made for a long day. To rule out external variables we did the testing inside my shop building. Yeah, not doing that again. I am still finding little slivers of gelatin shell, even to this day.

Good luck with your testing, hopefully we'll learn something, even if it's only that I'm FOS. :rofl:

[flying Dutchman]

Okay guys here's a test using 4 types of paint shot out of a new Tippmann 98 custom on compressed. New stock gun paint seemed to be fresh but I can say how long the distributor has had it. But the paint looked good. Look for the difference between the highs and the lows. I'll give you the avg speed and even the range between high and low. But the gun wasn't reset for speed so the difference you see is just from change of paint,

10 shot test 59 degrees no wind (indoor) radar chronograph.
Gun set at approx 300 FPS using All Star 3 shot test group 3 seconds between shots.

All Star 294 289 292 305 284 294 297 292 288 286 Avg 291.1 Range 21 fps

Premium 288 280 299 292 290 298 300 292 285 290 Avg 291.4 Range 20 fps

Nel Splat 251 293 278 265 301 281 283 286 275 256 Avg 276.9 Range 50 fps

White Box 238 291 292 291 297 254 298 291 294 285 Avg 283.1 Range 60 fps.

Now looking at this my thoughts are that the smaller the range between high and low the easier it is to keep the speed from jumping to unsafe levels.

I also see a drop of almost 17-24 fps by changing paint. So if we had set speed using this slower paint to 300 fps then we can conclude a marker being feed the faster paint would see it's speed increase.

Now all I'm trying to point out is that carry on removes yet another safety check that a field owner has to use. A good field owner cares a bad one may not. But looking at these results I'd have to conclude that the All Star and the Premium are the winners of the test.

Again just pointing out there is more to this than what some people realize. A field owner is there to keep you safe and help you have a good time. That's our jobs.

[SR_matt]

i would like to see the test done with other types of guns and barrels. while i agree that your results are somewhat disturbing i have switched between paints on my markers and had much less variation.

you did keep the air source turned on the whole time right and just swapped paint?
-matt

[CoolHand]

Okay guys here's a test using 4 types of paint shot out of a new Tippmann 98 custom on compressed. New stock gun paint seemed to be fresh but I can say how long the distributor has had it. But the paint looked good. Look for the difference between the highs and the lows. I'll give you the avg speed and even the range between high and low. But the gun wasn't reset for speed so the difference you see is just from change of paint,

10 shot test 59 degrees no wind (indoor) radar chronograph.
Gun set at approx 300 FPS using All Star 3 shot test group 3 seconds between shots.

All Star 294 289 292 305 284 294 297 292 288 286 Avg 291.1 Range 21 fps

Premium 288 280 299 292 290 298 300 292 285 290 Avg 291.4 Range 20 fps

Nel Splat 251 293 278 265 301 281 283 286 275 256 Avg 276.9 Range 50 fps

White Box 238 291 292 291 297 254 298 291 294 285 Avg 283.1 Range 60 fps.

Now looking at this my thoughts are that the smaller the range between high and low the easier it is to keep the speed from jumping to unsafe levels.

I also see a drop of almost 17-24 fps by changing paint. So if we had set speed using this slower paint to 300 fps then we can conclude a marker being feed the faster paint would see it's speed increase.

Now all I'm trying to point out is that carry on removes yet another safety check that a field owner has to use. A good field owner cares a bad one may not. But looking at these results I'd have to conclude that the All Star and the Premium are the winners of the test.

Again just pointing out there is more to this than what some people realize. A field owner is there to keep you safe and help you have a good time. That's our jobs.

This is EXACTLY the result I was expecting.

Look at your high average compared to your low average: Difference = 14.5 fps
Now look at the variance inside the high group: Variance = 20 fps

The data is telling you that on average, there is more variance inside a single case of paint than there is from brand to brand. What I posted the other night is saying exactly this.

My point is that you are just as likely to experience a hot shot from inside a case of paint as you are if you cross cases.

Now, it appears that you would be ~twice as likely to see a hot shot from a low end case than a high end case, but the act of switching between them would not make this risk go up. If you switch from high end to low end, your risk goes up to what it would have been if you'd been shooting low end paint all along. If you switch from low end to high end paint, your risk stays the same. THAT is what I've been trying to say.

Statistically speaking (and really, the size of this test isn't big enough to make the sweeping statement I'm about to :D ), the risk does not change when crossing brands and cases of paint. The risk will never be any higher than the risk inherent to the brand with the highest variability.

I'm also happy to note that RPS Premium appears to still be a kickass paint. Since NPS and PMI have merged, I bet I can buy that stuff wholesale now. Bwahahahahaha!!!!! :ninja:

[flying Dutchman]

This is EXACTLY the result I was expecting.

Look at your high average compared to your low average: Difference = 14.5 fps
Now look at the variance inside the high group: Variance = 20 fps

The data is telling you that on average, there is more variance inside a single case of paint than there is from brand to brand. What I posted the other night is saying exactly this.

My point is that you are just as likely to experience a hot shot from inside a case of paint as you are if you cross cases.

Now, it appears that you would be ~twice as likely to see a hot shot from a low end case than a high end case, but the act of switching between them would not make this risk go up. If you switch from high end to low end, your risk goes up to what it would have been if you'd been shooting low end paint all along. If you switch from low end to high end paint, your risk stays the same. THAT is what I've been trying to say.

Statistically speaking (and really, the size of this test isn't big enough to make the sweeping statement I'm about to :D ), the risk does not change when crossing brands and cases of paint. The risk will never be any higher than the risk inherent to the brand with the highest variability.

I'm also happy to note that RPS Premium appears to still be a kickass paint. Since NPS and PMI have merged, I bet I can buy that stuff wholesale now. Bwahahahahaha!!!!! :ninja:


Coolhand we are almost of one mind now. I agree that any case can have a few balls that are going to go hot or slow, and it looks like the cheaper you go the more of these you may find in each case. I think your with me to this point?

But here's my last point. I set the speed using All Star at 300 And we say the NelSplat come out the slowest. So if I had of chroneyed two identical guns one at 300 on All Star and one at 300 on Nepsplat which would have required more pressure to get up to 300. If the Nelspalt gun was suddenly feed All Star I will bet you would see it climb to 330 or maybe higher. What do you think?

[flying Dutchman]

i would like to see the test done with other types of guns and barrels. while i agree that your results are somewhat disturbing i have switched between paints on my markers and had much less variation.

you did keep the air source turned on the whole time right and just swapped paint?
-matt
Air Source was on the gun at all times and never dropped below 2500 on the tank pressure.

I tested a mag with a 14 inch Dye stainless, the same mag after switching to a 16 inch all american. No adjustment in velocity I tested a new mini invert with a stock barrel and an Auto Cocker pump from our fleet with an 18 inch empire. If you want to see the results tell me what one you would like.

[SR_matt]

Air Source was on the gun at all times and never dropped below 2500 on the tank pressure.

I tested a mag with a 14 inch Dye stainless, the same mag after switching to a 16 inch all american. No adjustment in velocity I tested a new mini invert with a stock barrel and an Auto Cocker pump from our fleet with an 18 inch empire. If you want to see the results tell me what one you would like.

if possible i would like to see all of the results, not that i dont believe you just am curious

i see these results but i think that everything we have in regards to "marker technology" has so much variation or at least the potential for it so i really would love to see some one break down what affects what (but that is rather complicated and in depth of research that is not realistic to do)

my markers have so much variation from system to system (my mag used to be very consistent then after slight adjustment has been more jumpy, my sniper 2 i pieced together was shooting 285 exactly shot after shot unless i let it sit for a little while and then it would drop to 250s for the first shot in a line but that is due to the co2, my cocoker i think was shooting about +/- 5 and that was consistant brand to brand and size to size) so i really think the variation is affected from so many other factors as well.

just my 2 cents but personally i have more faith in my markers than in the changes of paint

-matt

[CoolHand]

Coolhand we are almost of one mind now. I agree that any case can have a few balls that are going to go hot or slow, and it looks like the cheaper you go the more of these you may find in each case. I think your with me to this point?

But here's my last point. I set the speed using All Star at 300 And we say the NelSplat come out the slowest. So if I had of chroneyed two identical guns one at 300 on All Star and one at 300 on Nepsplat which would have required more pressure to get up to 300. If the Nelspalt gun was suddenly feed All Star I will bet you would see it climb to 330 or maybe higher. What do you think?

I don't think you can infer that just by looking at that set of data.

If that is a question you want an answer to, it would be quite easy to do a test and see what you get.

Set the same marker to 300 fps with the NelSplat, take a baseline to get a low average, then feed it All Star and find the high average. That'll tell the tale.

If I've learned anything at all about statistics, it's this: One test is worth a thousand logical conclusions. ;)

That is doubly true when you're dealing with complex systems like you have inside a PB marker. There are so many interactions that it's difficult to say 100% of the time that "if you do X, the result will be Y, because I have observed W". You're much better off to just control as many variables as you can, test X, see if you get Y, and to hell with W.

Who need W's anyway? :D

[flying Dutchman]

if possible i would like to see all of the results, not that i dont believe you just am curious

i see these results but i think that everything we have in regards to "marker technology" has so much variation or at least the potential for it so i really would love to see some one break down what affects what (but that is rather complicated and in depth of research that is not realistic to do)

my markers have so much variation from system to system (my mag used to be very consistent then after slight adjustment has been more jumpy, my sniper 2 i pieced together was shooting 285 exactly shot after shot unless i let it sit for a little while and then it would drop to 250s for the first shot in a line but that is due to the co2, my cocoker i think was shooting about +/- 5 and that was consistant brand to brand and size to size) so i really think the variation is affected from so many other factors as well.

just my 2 cents but personally i have more faith in my markers than in the changes of paint

-matt

So a test using the same marker and the only variable is changing the paint in the marker. Doesn't prove to you that different brands of paint can effect the velocity achieved when shot. You sir have a closed mind! I tested 5 different marker configuration, none of them shot the same speed with all brands of paint.

[SR_matt]

just to add onto coldnad, i have seen some markers where if you turned it up more you would not gain any more fps (while on a tippman new out of the box i am betting you would get higher fps but some other markers may give the say result i have seen)

FD i am not saying your results were wrong, false, not proving your point, i am just saying that in my experience i have also seen the opposite of what your tests show. just trying to put out that while it can give different results it can also not give those results (at least in my experiences)

-matt

[flying Dutchman]

I don't think you can infer that just by looking at that set of data.

If that is a question you want an answer to, it would be quite easy to do a test and see what you get.

Set the same marker to 300 fps with the NelSplat, take a baseline to get a low average, then feed it All Star and find the high average. That'll tell the tale.

If I've learned anything at all about statistics, it's this: One test is worth a thousand logical conclusions. ;)

That is doubly true when you're dealing with complex systems like you have inside a PB marker. There are so many interactions that it's difficult to say 100% of the time that "if you do X, the result will be Y, because I have observed W". You're much better off to just control as many variables as you can, test X, see if you get Y, and to hell with W.

Who need W's anyway? :D
I'll re run that portion of the test tomorrow. But I'll do this for you. I'll set speed with Nelsplat to 300 then test both All Star and nelsplat. Then I'll reset the velocity with Premuim as the base line and retest both Nelsplat and All star to see how they behave in a gun set with a different brand. Now if Set at 300 with Nelsplat and the All Star comes in shooting 20-30 feet above that does that make a point????

[SR_matt]

I'll re run that portion of the test tomorrow. But I'll do this for you. I'll set speed with Nelsplat to 300 then test both All Star and nelsplat. Then I'll reset the velocity with Premuim as the base line and retest both Nelsplat and All star to see how they behave in a gun set with a different brand. Now if Set at 300 with Nelsplat and the All Star comes in shooting 20-30 feet above that does that make a point????
i think that will make a good point... but for that set up, yes it should carry over some what consistently but if some one had opposite results i wouldnt be surprised


as a note i will bet that with that marker in its current state you will get the results you are expecting
-matt

[RRfireblade]

So this thing went all over the place. :)

I guess I'll just start at the begining and keep it short.


FPO , BYOP. - I don't have a problem with either as long as the FPO is fairly priced and of reasonable quality for said price. Pretty much what most have stated. The problem is that for most of us that have been around long enough and played in enough places is , we have heard EVERY FPO field say thier prices are good and thier paint is great quality only to find out more often than not , this is far from the case.

Kudo's to you , but you are certainly the exception to the rule across the board.


The velocity issue. Switching paint will most definately change velocity , there is no question there. Many fields I've been to Chrono through out the day and that should be the case IMO. There are many more reasons than paint for that , heat and humidity changes , inconsistant guns , various air sources. There are a dozen reasons why a marker may change velocity. You have to check more than once a day , period. That is not a FPO or BYOP issue regardless.

:)

Lastly ,
As a SC Pump player most of the time , to be honest , I pretty much always BMOP. I NEED the best possible paint set up for my markers to perform at thier absolute best. Every single shot must count. Fortunately , all the fields I play at allow me to do so , especially given the small amount of paint I shoot. I do often pay additional for the privledge. I've even bought the min required of FPO in some cases and just bring it home for testing.

So that's my pinion.

:cheers:

[CoolHand]

I'll re run that portion of the test tomorrow. But I'll do this for you. I'll set speed with Nelsplat to 300 then test both All Star and nelsplat. Then I'll reset the velocity with Premuim as the base line and retest both Nelsplat and All star to see how they behave in a gun set with a different brand. Now if Set at 300 with Nelsplat and the All Star comes in shooting 20-30 feet above that does that make a point????

Probably, but only if the averages show the trend you're proposing.

For instance, if you put the All Star in and get one hot shot, that doesn't prove the point at all, because you have already shown that there is a lot of variability inherent in even the best paint. However, if the average of all the All Star shots is above the average of all the NelSplat shot by more than the variance inside each set, then you can say that your point is proven. Otherwise the data shows no significant deviation.

What I was getting at before is that while the other test showed that the Whitebox exhibits a slightly smaller bore on average than the Premium (due to the slower average measured speed), the difference was lower than the variance inside even the more consistent of the two paints.

The idea was that by limiting the players to a the paint that you sell, you limit the potential for a hot shot, but according to the test you ran, the probability of the next shot from the gun being hot changes very little whether it comes from the exact same case of paint the first one did, or a completely different one from a different brand.

If you pull off the outliers (toss the high and the low in each set), you find that the averages are quite close from brand to brand.

All Star - Avg Spd = 291.50 fps Range = 11 fps
Premium - Avg Spd = 291.75 fps Range = 14 fps
NelSplat - Avg Spd = 277.13 fps Range = 37 fps
Whitebox - Avg Spd = 286.88 fps Range = 43 fps

This is a data set that should cover ~95% of the possible outcomes, and is far more useful for the purposes of making inferences about all the balls in all those cases.

While yes, it is entirely possible for a ball from a case of Premium to produce a hot shot when fired from a marker set to run Whitebox, the probability of that happening is no greater than the probability that any given shot from a case of Whitebox will be hot.

This doesn't prove that the risk is automatically reduced by forcing players to use a paint of your choosing, but rather that risk can be reduced by forcing players to use a higher quality paint that is more consistent.

FPO does not reduce the risk of hot shots in and of itself, but rather it can reduce the risk, if the FPO paint in question happens to be a high quality paint.

Fields that require FPO, but sell Whitebox are no less exposed to hot shots than if all three brands were in used at the same time and switched between willy nilly, because the variation inside the Whitebox paint data set far overshadows the variance from brand to brand.

If you had said that you require the use of a single high quality paint because you have found that it reduces hot shots on the field by being more consistent, your case would be air tight, because that is borne out by this data, but that is not what you said to start out with.

You said that the field being FPO is the cause of the reduced risk, but that is only indirectly true, it's just a happy coincidence that your FPO paint happens to reduce hot shots by being more consistent. This is why I said that you cannot always infer that Y is because of X due to the fact that you observe W.

It's getting late, and my head is getting a little fuzzy, so it's time for me to stop the discussion. Otherwise I may make a mistake and derail the whole discussion.

At any rate, good on ya for taking the time to do some testing, regardless of the outcome. It is absolutely refreshing to see people take a discussion seriously enough to invest time and money in it to prove or dis-prove a point. Well done indeed.

:cheers:

[punkncat]

Just WOW!!!

I tried reading through this, got a decent way down the first page and my BS meter pegged out.

I have NEVER seen a marker increase velocity over 50FPS over a simple change in paint. I have been playing around 10 years and the worst I have ever seen was an occasional 20-30FPS spike with a different paintball. And it is impotant to note that these changes aren't always higher velocity, and can be lowered according to paintball size.

I have always made it a routine to re-chrono my marker after changing brands of paint. Not only to keep myself from getting an infraction for possible hot shots, but to make sure I am getting the best performance by having high enough velocity.

As far as this supposed safety issue....well there are brands of paint that I agree should never be on field. Monsterball comes to mind. I have been whacked my some marbles through the years, anyone remember the old proball?
Yeah, I have to say that as a player I would rather find as brittle a paint as I can w/o it breaking in my marker. I have been playing long enough as have many whom I play with that a bounce is just a missed opportunity. I would rather have you walking off to the dead box. If I have a paint that doesn't perform as expected then I notate it and find something that does.

This "I have to make some profit" argument doesn't carry much water with me. If you are overpriced on your field paint it gets around fast, and the end result is that you are trying to squeeze more money out of less players. Less players creates a less dynamic playing environment.
Money can be made through volume of players as well. Less profit margin per case, but more revenue through field fees and air as you tend to gain more players. And in many cases no margin from paint, allowing the player to feel like they have added value by using what brand they prefer and of course many of the other issues brought up about use of old, storing thier own brand etc.

The best way I can put it is to say the state built a highway and then said you can only use the car we provide to drive on it, cause its safer and we can regulate it better. That road would only be used by those that had to.

[Lohman446]

The best way I can put it is to say the state built a highway and then said you can only use the car we provide to drive on it, cause its safer and we can regulate it better. That road would only be used by those that had to.

Comparing a private business to a project funded with public money is not really a fair comparison is it?

[punkncat]

Comparing a private business to a project funded with public money is not really a fair comparison is it?

Used simply to make a point. Its not apples and oranges, but I think what I was trying to say comes across pretty easily with the comparison.

[SR_matt]

Comparing a private business to a project funded with public money is not really a fair comparison is it?

meh, it was a good attempt at trying to put it into common day things but i think the car is to much of a permanent thing where as paint is rather consumable so that is more of an issue i have with it than gov't vs private business

-matt

[punkncat]

meh, it was a good attempt at trying to put it into common day things but i think the car is to much of a permanent thing where as paint is rather consumable so that is more of an issue i have with it than gov't vs private business

-matt

Lol, I can't win.

[SR_matt]

Lol, I can't win.
o no it was more of a "naw naw anw it was fine" to lohman

-matt

[flying Dutchman]

Okay folks, sorry I'm a day late but I had the tests rerun on the velocity. This time I brought in a player to witness and record the results. We ran a new 98 custom stock barrel and temp at 73 degrees. Compressed air on the marker 3 seconds between shots.

All Star 250 257 255 270 252 256 264 248 260 252
High 270 low 248 Range 22 fps Avg speed 256.4


Premium 257 261 255 264 255 272 254 249 254 255
High 272 low 249 Range 23 fps Avg Speed 256.6


Nel Splat 273 266 249 275 275 276 223 279 279 277
High 279 Low 223 Range 56 fps Avg Speed 267.2


White Box 269 268 247 253 238 246 244 209 253 253
High 269 Low 209 Range 60 fps Avg Speed 248

Now looking at this my thoughts are that the All Star and the Premium are the easiest to achieve a safe chrono speed because they don,t range that much. 50-60 fps is going to be really tough to set a safe speed.

It also appears that Nel Splat increased in speed when fired through the marker. This adds evidence to support that by changeing paint you can alter the speed of the marker. Just like changing barrel inserts in a freek system.

This all started over the idea that maybe FPO was a little safer than BYOP. Now so far every player that has smuggled paint in or asked to bring it to the field has never brought better paint as good as what we use. Only cheaper. And truth be told that's what it's really all about.

[robnix]

Okay folks, sorry I'm a day late but I had the tests rerun on the velocity. This time I brought in a player to witness and record the results. We ran a new 98 custom stock barrel and temp at 73 degrees. Compressed air on the marker 3 seconds between shots.

All Star 250 257 255 270 252 256 264 248 260 252
High 270 low 248 Range 22 fps Avg speed 256.4


Premium 257 261 255 264 255 272 254 249 254 255
High 272 low 249 Range 23 fps Avg Speed 256.6


Nel Splat 273 266 249 275 275 276 223 279 279 277
High 279 Low 223 Range 56 fps Avg Speed 267.2


White Box 269 268 247 253 238 246 244 209 253 253
High 269 Low 209 Range 60 fps Avg Speed 248

Now looking at this my thoughts are that the All Star and the Premium are the easiest to achieve a safe chrono speed because they don,t range that much. 50-60 fps is going to be really tough to set a safe speed.

It also appears that Nel Splat increased in speed when fired through the marker. This adds evidence to support that by changeing paint you can alter the speed of the marker. Just like changing barrel inserts in a freek system.

This all started over the idea that maybe FPO was a little safer than BYOP. Now so far every player that has smuggled paint in or asked to bring it to the field has never brought better paint as good as what we use. Only cheaper. And truth be told that's what it's really all about.

Using your numbers I could just as easily argue that the real issue is that cheap paint will fluctuate down in velocity instead of up.

If you look both cases of cheap paint, out of 10 shots you had one shot that was abnormally low. The Nel Splat had one shot that was 26 fps lower than the next lowest, and the White Box had one shot that was 29 fps lower. With the good paint, the drop isn't as dramatic, but the extreme shot is still on the low, NOT the high side. So feel free to use velocity fluctuation as your reasoning behind FPO, but the reality using your numbers is the the problem is smaller paint causing big drops in velocity, not bigger paint causing spikes.

Truth be told what this is really all about is you trying to find statistics that back your assertions of safety as the primary reason for FPO, when even the numbers you have don't show that's the case. Your assertion that the Nel Splat increased in speed is even false, the low shots were #3 and #7, the first shot was within 6 fps of the high.

Run your field however you want, but don't b.s. around about why you're making your decisions. Just say it's to keep the field running, and don't worry. Your prices are fair, I buy FPO premium stuff at .03 to .04 a ball all the time just so the field is getting the profit.

[drg]

Difficult thing to judge by the data provided is just how big those balls are. I mean if they are all within .001 of each other, then that test doesn't really show anything.

[flying Dutchman]

I give up guys!

You can beleive whatever you want to. I'm just trying to share facts and get you to think about the possiblity. If you think a ball that ranges 60 fps from high to low is as safe as a ball that moves 20 fps. Then be happy!

It's been fun but I'm out of here.

[SR_matt]

I give up guys!

You can beleive whatever you want to. I'm just trying to share facts and get you to think about the possiblity. If you think a ball that ranges 60 fps from high to low is as safe as a ball that moves 20 fps. Then be happy!

It's been fun but I'm out of here.

i think the thing that is trying to be pointed out is that you have pretty tight ranges with the occasional low shot as apposed to a high shot, if you are chronoing a gun and see 270 230 270 you wont say much because the 3 shots were under 300. at least i have never seen a ref ask to shoot again if all 3 were under the limit unless they were right at it.

that type of jumping is rather consistent, from working at a field i dont remember anyone that had a gun that had spikes up that were very drastic/random compared to the down spikes. thats one reason that a lot of fields go to 285 as the limit so there is a good buffer room.

yes it is a concern and yes i do like FPO as long as the paint is decent and not totally over priced but i really think that the safety thing holds a lot less water than field needs $$ because if the field was concerned that much about safety they would make everyone shoot their markers 100 times with plastic/rubber balls that were more consistent the paint to check to see how much the marker fluctuated.

i am not trying be rude but the fight for safety, after working at a field that ended up going under about a year after i stopped working there, is not as big an issue to the survival of the field as bringing in teh cash

-matt

[flying Dutchman]

i think the thing that is trying to be pointed out is that you have pretty tight ranges with the occasional low shot as apposed to a high shot, if you are chronoing a gun and see 270 230 270 you wont say much because the 3 shots were under 300. at least i have never seen a ref ask to shoot again if all 3 were under the limit unless they were right at it.

that type of jumping is rather consistent, from working at a field i dont remember anyone that had a gun that had spikes up that were very drastic/random compared to the down spikes. thats one reason that a lot of fields go to 285 as the limit so there is a good buffer room.

yes it is a concern and yes i do like FPO as long as the paint is decent and not totally over priced but i really think that the safety thing holds a lot less water than field needs $$ because if the field was concerned that much about safety they would make everyone shoot their markers 100 times with plastic/rubber balls that were more consistent the paint to check to see how much the marker fluctuated.

i am not trying be rude but the fight for safety, after working at a field that ended up going under about a year after i stopped working there, is not as big an issue to the survival of the field as bringing in teh cash

-mattWhy is it everyone I chat with has worked for a field that is out of business???????

[SR_matt]

Why is it everyone I chat with has worked for a field that is out of business???????
because the field i worked at was on base so that started one issue, the base put a field through part of it (not on the field parts but we had to open and close a gate), the lady was a ummm witch is a nice word, she left and no one knew the computer system that was overly complicated, and people had stopped coming to the field because the lady was ya a "witch"

they had reasonable paint for the most part but if DOT came in there would be so many fines for out of date hydro tanks, huge fine from the health department because of the way the hotdog cooker was cleaned, the way the masks were cleaned (seeing as they are right on peoples faces they needed to be sanitized), no one had training on how to fill tanks and no scale was used on co2, and ya she didnt take good care of her refs like the guy that used to run the field did (he left cause after like 9 years of working his way up from ref to being a full time employee he was only making 25k a year and he was selling a but load of stuff and the angel tech for the place which at the time was the number 1 wdp distributor)

but over like 15 years of 2 fields they had im pretty sure there was never a serious injury that was related to the equipment (we had the messing up knees form tripping and sliding and all that but never any eye injuries)

-matt

[PYROMAN315]

I have read most of the reply's on this thread. Some good, some, well, obvious.
I own one Paintball business, and im the Field Manager at another. Going BYOP was not an easy decision as the field I run did this 4 years ago. Our paint supplier wantd very little to do with us once we made that decision, so we simply switched suppliers. However, it was by far the best decision we ever made. We sell four different levels of paint at the field, and around 10 levels at our store.
I read one reply stating that the field paint was crap because of the way they store it. Thats simply poor management. Im at our field from 4am to 11pm during our busy season. It takes hours to set up and take down product as we have to put it in storage every night, but you know what, we get 20,000 players at our field every year and its because of how we run it.
When we went to BYOP, we simply increased our walk on fee. That walk on fee is a guaranteed income. Who knows how much paint a player will shoot in a day, especially with FPO. We sell more paint now than we ever have in the past. We pick it up fresh every week, store it properly, and have competitive prices. Besides, you have to buy paint somewhere, right? I love the WALMART shoppers that buy the paint that was stored in an outside container all winter long and then ***** to us because it wont shoot through our rentals.
We even have BYOP Scenario Events. The company I own runs all of the games at our field, so its a win win. The only thing we do for FPO is a few tournaments.
Personally, im very happy were BYOP, yet I still buy my paint at any field I go to just to help support that field.
My 2 cents.