Paintguns: Firearms vs. Toys

[Maghog]

So what are they? On many paintguns, it says, "this gun is not a toy", and still they get sold by the thousands to kids under 18. Incidents happen all over, drive by splattings, homeless people peltings, school scares and so on.
As responsible players, we've defended the game for what it is, and the equipment we use is just an instrument to play that game. What if your State decided that they wanted to classify paintball guns as firearms...what would it imply for the sport? What would change and would it make you rethink your involvement in the sport?

I live in a country now where paintball is heavily monitored, and constantly on the brink of being declared illegal. Most here think that it's a militant game, where people get to live out their war fantasies.I know different. Paintball is the ultimate strategy game for me, and that's why I love it so, not because I go out there and imagine I'm killing someone. I play by their rules here though, which means I don't play paintball anymore.

So if the State stepped in and said, it's time to regulate this, and we're going to make it harder for you to play at a place that has NOT been designated to do so, what would you say?
Dan@Triggernomics

[Chaos_Theory!]

They arent toys and they arent firearms but rather somethign in betweem, that seems obvious to me. Considering it either of the two seems obsurd to me.

[punkncat]

Well, the way that I feel kind of contradicts itself so to speak.
IMO no one under the age of 18 should even be able to play at a field, any field, without the accompanying adult. I am not even certain that people under 14 should be able to play at all. My son plays, he is 10 and has since he was 8, but under my strict supervision and only at specific venues.
This drop a kid off at the paintball daycare crap is out of hand.

On top of that, I feel like everyone who wants to play paintball should be required to take a gun safety course and also sign an agreement that states they will never use the marker is an unappropiate manner. That way if they get caught out doing stupid crap with one then they would pay a very hefty price, that they knew about in the first place. This also brings back up the no unsupervised kids under 18.

Does this mean I think that no underaged kid is responsible enough to play without the adult? No
However, no underaged kid is fully legally responsible for their own actions. The adult is, so the adult should be on hand and readily available.

I do not want to see markers legislated as firearms. That would bring down too much oversight from Big Brother. They do need more than is currently in place in my opinion though.

[Toll]

Your own private property : Knock yourself out.
Permission from the owner (written, in triplicate) then why not.

Walking around a public park shooting at eachother: No.


It really almost mirrors regular gun control laws, wherethe people who you are worried about don't really care bout the law anyway, so it stops them very little and only hinders the people who want to go through the process. There's a pretty heavy general misconception that paintball is entirely made up of people who refer to themselves as Delta Leader, paint their face and then go out and murder people. As for school scares, it's not the tool its the weilder. These kids would walk in with an airsoft gun, or something fashioned out of wood and black paint if they wanted to.

The day they want me to pay to register my viking is the day I say "this is stupid" and quit.

[Chaos_Theory!]

Well, the way that I feel kind of contradicts itself so to speak.
IMO no one under the age of 18 should even be able to play at a field, any field, without the accompanying adult. I am not even certain that people under 14 should be able to play at all. My son plays, he is 10 and has since he was 8, but under my strict supervision and only at specific venues.
This drop a kid off at the paintball daycare crap is out of hand.

On top of that, I feel like everyone who wants to play paintball should be required to take a gun safety course and also sign an agreement that states they will never use the marker is an unappropiate manner. That way if they get caught out doing stupid crap with one then they would pay a very hefty price, that they knew about in the first place. This also brings back up the no unsupervised kids under 18.

Does this mean I think that no underaged kid is responsible enough to play without the adult? No
However, no underaged kid is fully legally responsible for their own actions. The adult is, so the adult should be on hand and readily available.

I do not want to see markers legislated as firearms. That would bring down too much oversight from Big Brother. They do need more than is currently in place in my opinion though.

I couldnt disagree more. If you pput that much control over who plays the sport paintball would probably die out. Its good to have an adult around but your taking it WAY to far and not thinking everythign through. Sure your ideas have an upside but the downsides far outweigh them. I say as long as there are responsible adults around then age really shouldnt be of a concern.


The day they want me to pay to register my viking is the day I say "this is stupid" and quit.

Agreed

[psychowarden]

The day they want me to pay to register my viking is the day I say "this is stupid" and quit.


Agreed.

It's all about misconception as far as paintball goes. I have tried my hardest to spread the word to as many people as possible that paintballers don't consider ourselves soldiers, or warriors, or anything violent at all, we consider ourselves players, as in we are playing a game, nothing more than an advanced version of capture the flag. I have done this by giving a few dozen public speeches at schools around the state, and I just hope that those that I have talked to spread the word at well, and it turns into a snowball effect so to speak.

[punkncat]

I couldnt disagree more. If you pput that much control over who plays the sport paintball would probably die out. Its good to have an adult around but your taking it WAY to far and not thinking everythign through. Sure your ideas have an upside but the downsides far outweigh them. I say as long as there are responsible adults around then age really shouldnt be of a concern.



Agreed

You are right, there are downsides. But legally speaking so many of these kids should never have been dropped off in a public place unsupervised in the first place. I think a designated chaperone would be a viable alternative, but for every child at the field there needs to be some adult other than the field owner that you can point to and say "he is responsible for that kid".
I cannot say how many times I have been out reffing and have some kid get hurt, or pull some bonehead action, start a fight or whatever, and there is noone there to take action with.
Too often the parent pulls up, opens a door kicks the kid out and takes off to area unknown. We aren't talking about the next neighborhood over, or the park next door. This kid is not in some situation where he can walk across the block back to his house.
This is a dangerous sport made safe by the equipment and the common sense of the players , mostly adults, that the game was concieved by. We can see signs all around of what has happened to the orginal concept through letting youngsters take over and determine the path of the sport. If paintball is going to be saved, not only from itself, but from the untimate oversight of the government then something is going to have to be done to rein it in.

[Maghog]

Now you guys know why I don't play over here.

Imagine this, I am not allowed to fire my paintballgun on my own property here, and as a result, I don't have any equipment at all. It's just a hassle and a lot of money, and it's no fun.
I don't do anything but carve pieces of gun-looking-like aluminum now.

Other than that, it's over,
Dan

[Maghog]

Well, the way that I feel kind of contradicts itself so to speak.
IMO no one under the age of 18 should even be able to play at a field, any field, without the accompanying adult. I am not even certain that people under 14 should be able to play at all. My son plays, he is 10 and has since he was 8, but under my strict supervision and only at specific venues.
This drop a kid off at the paintball daycare crap is out of hand.

On top of that, I feel like everyone who wants to play paintball should be required to take a gun safety course and also sign an agreement that states they will never use the marker is an unappropiate manner. That way if they get caught out doing stupid crap with one then they would pay a very hefty price, that they knew about in the first place. This also brings back up the no unsupervised kids under 18.

Does this mean I think that no underaged kid is responsible enough to play without the adult? No
However, no underaged kid is fully legally responsible for their own actions. The adult is, so the adult should be on hand and readily available.

I do not want to see markers legislated as firearms. That would bring down too much oversight from Big Brother. They do need more than is currently in place in my opinion though.

I feel the same way about approaching my kids with paintball, and though they are a bit younger, they are learning to respect and understand it for what it is.
Dan

[Chaos_Theory!]

You are right, there are downsides. But legally speaking so many of these kids should never have been dropped off in a public place unsupervised in the first place. I think a designated chaperone would be a viable alternative, but for every child at the field there needs to be some adult other than the field owner that you can point to and say "he is responsible for that kid".
I cannot say how many times I have been out reffing and have some kid get hurt, or pull some bonehead action, start a fight or whatever, and there is noone there to take action with.
Too often the parent pulls up, opens a door kicks the kid out and takes off to area unknown. We aren't talking about the next neighborhood over, or the park next door. This kid is not in some situation where he can walk across the block back to his house.
This is a dangerous sport made safe by the equipment and the common sense of the players , mostly adults, that the game was concieved by. We can see signs all around of what has happened to the orginal concept through letting youngsters take over and determine the path of the sport. If paintball is going to be saved, not only from itself, but from the untimate oversight of the government then something is going to have to be done to rein it in.

The problem is thats not anywhere near a realistic way to look at things. I can see where your coming from but its just not gonna happen. It seems like your trying to fix problems that dont really exist. Your coming up with reasons and scenarios but honestly how often do you see those things as a problem (not just in your eyes, but an actual problem)?

[punkncat]

The problem is thats not anywhere near a realistic way to look at things. I can see where your coming from but its just not gonna happen. It seems like your trying to fix problems that dont really exist. Your coming up with reasons and scenarios but honestly how often do you see those things as a problem (not just in your eyes, but an actual problem)?

I am not sure that I read your question the right way. I will go with what I think you are asking me, in spite of my veering this a bit off the specific topic at hand.

Paintball is and has become a lot like the Lord of the Flies. You have a bunch of children who are trying to be self governing, and cannot and do not handle it. There is no question that almost all children act completly different when they are not in the presence of some adult figure. Especially in a situation where they know they way they are acting will not get back to the parent. There is no question that of this majority the behaviour is certainly not what we could call desirable. You get bad attitude, lack of respect and courtesy, unsportsmanlike conduct, a whole gammit of behaviour that the sport would be (and was) better without.
Now to tie that in with the topic at hand, this behaviour has a tendency to bleed over into other peoples perception of the game itself. It is the game as it has become, not as it was concieved.
So a good amount of the danger inherent to the sport, like overshooting, fights breaking out, cheating, etc. could be handled simply by these kids having some guidance and adult supervision. So if the children who are the mass of paintball players were put in check by the authority of a responsible adult on hand, the government would not have to do it for us, and make us all pay the consequences.

[Chaos_Theory!]

I am not sure that I read your question the right way. I will go with what I think you are asking me, in spite of my veering this a bit off the specific topic at hand.

Paintball is and has become a lot like the Lord of the Flies. You have a bunch of children who are trying to be self governing, and cannot and do not handle it. There is no question that almost all children act completly different when they are not in the presence of some adult figure. Especially in a situation where they know they way they are acting will not get back to the parent. There is no question that of this majority the behaviour is certainly not what we could call desirable. You get bad attitude, lack of respect and courtesy, unsportsmanlike conduct, a whole gammit of behaviour that the sport would be (and was) better without.
Now to tie that in with the topic at hand, this behaviour has a tendency to bleed over into other peoples perception of the game itself. It is the game as it has become, not as it was concieved.
So a good amount of the danger inherent to the sport, like overshooting, fights breaking out, cheating, etc. could be handled simply by these kids having some guidance and adult supervision. So if the children who are the mass of paintball players were put in check by the authority of a responsible adult on hand, the government would not have to do it for us, and make us all pay the consequences.

Again, i highly disagree. The kids who cause problems at fields in my experience would be like that regardless of whether or not a parent figure is around. A lot of times this comes from their parents having a similar attitude. Any of the problems you mentioned can easily be solved by warning said person and then kicking them off the field if they continue to cause problems. Not having a parent around wouldnt matter at all. It isnt rocket science and is in no way a hard thing to take care of. Also, i tend to see more problems with young adults then actual kids.

[Maghog]

Are you sure that you've seen these kids in action on the field? They dare each other and challenge each other to do stupid stuff all the time. You've been around long enough to see kids cower out on the field, but then in the parking lot they blast away at the chrono area without mercy. There's been plenty of close calls there.
I've played with 8-10 year olds, and it's always been under the supervision of a parent, with great results.

I would agree with you though too Chaos...I don't really feel like paintguns should be considered as either firearms nor toys, but rather something in between.

But what would that be?

[punkncat]

The kids who cause problems at fields in my experience would be like that regardless of whether or not a parent figure is around. A lot of times this comes from their parents having a similar attitude.


Now this is something we can both agree on. Very true that not all parents are a good influence and moral beacon. Not a whole lot can be done about this group, except as you suggested but to weed them out.

If that parent was not there, it would be impossible to know where that bad influence came from.

Your other point about young adults, I have to agree with as well to some degree. There are a lot of punks in that age group who are responsible for themselves and lack the maturity and intelligence to do the right thing with it.

[Chaos_Theory!]

maghog - I honestly have no idea what to classify them as.

punkncat - Im glad we agree on those points. :)

[Toll]

Realistically they can propel a projectile at enough velocity to kill some one. See : Riot control balls. Something comes to mind about the only difference between a tool and a wepon is intent. I mean, god help us if some one got a hold of a violent instrument that was weighted and constructed in such a way that it could have no real use outside of hurting something


http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/hammer-1.jpg

[93civiccpe]

I believe whole-heartedly that it's sporting goods equipment and that maybe we should put an age-limit on being able to possess one without a parent or guardian there. That way a young teen could not have one in the car with them. Some young people may see it as an inconvenience, but it will hopefully allow police officers to stop the kids who use these for vandalizing and are giving us a bad name. Plus, I know our field would happily store your paintball gun there if you didn't have a parent to drive you back and forth.

Here's my take on it showing other sports:

Golf - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a golf club
Hockey - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a hockey stick
Baseball - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a baseball bat or a baseball
Lawn Darts - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with lawn darts
Horseshoes - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a horseshoe
Tennis - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a tennis racket
Field Hockey - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a field hockey stick

Yet none of the above has any special classification. They are sporting goods items that COULD be used to cause harm.

We really do need to stand up and NOT let them classify paintball markers as firearms. There are already enough states trying to limit/take away our rights to bear arms as it is. Shoot, in Chicago you can't even own a pistol. /Enough of that rant.

Anyways, if we allow them to classify paintball guns as firearms, then our sport is going to take a major hit. It will put a heavier burden on the younger crowd who then will have to have their parents trasport them and stay with them because of firearm laws. A lot of parents won't want the hassle which means less kids playing, and less money going into our sport.

My opinion is that maybe they should come up with special rules for transporting paintball markers. Like make it so that you must keep it in the trunk /outside the passenger compartment with the air supply not connected to it and no hopper/paintballs connected. If it was in the passenger compartment it should be locked in a case out of the reach of the driver or any underage passenger. Then it becomes a very easy judgement call for the police who see a young teens in a car late at night with a loaded and ready to fire paintball gun.

For example, say you are a police officer and it is midday and you pull over a guy who is going a little fast. You see through his back window that he has some groceries... a carton of eggs or two.. toilet paper.. etc. Okay, this guy has been grocery shopping and is driving a little faster than he should. Now say it is late at night, and you pull over a car full of young teens who happen to have a couple cartons of eggs and several rolls of toilet paper that they may be trying to conceal from your sight. You might just want to escort them home and make sure those aren't going to be used to egg & tp a house. Maybe even have a few words with the parents to make sure the kids don't go out and get in trouble.

It would be incredibly easy, PLUS, the police in most states are not allowed in your trunk without a warrent. So if someone has it in there, the police are none-the-wiser. If a police pulled over a carload of kids in the morning decked out in paintball gear with masks & etc in the car, it's obvious that these kids are going to play paintball. If you pull over a group of kids wearing regular/nicer clothing late at night with one cheap paintball gun loaded and ready to go, take it away from them.. that simple.

[Zone Drifter]

I remember reading somewhere that in a town/city in florida, to make crime decline they made it almost mandatory for everyone of age to carry a gun. Guess what happened, crime went way down. Ok, that means nothing in this topic, and that is unconfirmed info, but what would putting a ban on paintball markers do? Nothing accept save me some money, lol. But really, all good points in the discussion that i agree on, so what really needs to be done is to show people how casual the sport is compared to say, baseball. I mean, they let people carry baseball bats in the trunk to defend themself with... and unless you hit someone over the head with your marker or the nitro tank, it's most likely not going to kill them just by shooting paintballs at them.

[Pacifist_Farmer]

We have the same problem with this sport that you see every where else.

Those who will use the equipment for nefarious purposes do not care about the laws, nor will laws stop them. It doesn't work for firearms it wouldn't work for paintball.


And as much as we try to convince ourselves, I'm guilty of it, we are playing a wargame. The markers might not look like Ak47's, the play style might not fit with combat tactics, but it is the same.

Regulation is not a bad thing, when done with the sport/players in mind, it could promote safety and help community acceptance. Unfortunately I don't think any of us can name a sport/activity that has been regulated in such a way that everyone involved benefits.

I am a strong opponent of extensive and restrictive firearm laws, regardless of their constitutional legality. On the other hand I am a proponent of regulated and required education as a requirement for use and ownership of potentially harmful tool/equipment.


At this point I am not in favor of restricting playing fields to designated areas, if that was to happen I would likely pack up my stuff and move on to other hobbies. Paintball is fun but it is not the civil rights argument that many make it out to be, Paintball equipment can not really be utilized for any other purpose than running around shooting people, at least guns can be used for hunting or personal protection.

[madcrisis]

i think the inbetween comments is where the key is. They are not toys but also not firearms. However when put in the hands of a kid it can go two ways, we all know what ways they are. However that can happen with adults too. Now i am a 16y/o and i know how i am with my paintball guns, but i also know how dumb other people the same age are and where all this Kids should not be allowed without adults, blah blah blah. But lets consider this a while back there was a thread on here that two guys got in an arguement and one was threatened with a hammer. both were adults. but when u have children they may talk but rarely do they act. esepcially when the other person is bigger and older than them. There are stupid kids however there are responsible and safe kids who jsut want to play. Its not fair to say that kids shoudnt be able to play just because some are stupid and some of the complaints you have against kids can be said for alot of other adults. Also whats more dangerous a boat or a pb gun. You are alowed to drive a boat at 16 in NJ and get your provisional license to drive a car at 17. Not being able to play a sport when youre young is kind of redundant. When youre young you have so much more time, you dont have to worry about work or not having the money t pay the bills. That is my view on the outlawing and kids playing.

[Chaos_Theory!]

Realistically they can propel a projectile at enough velocity to kill some one. See : Riot control balls.

We play paintball, not riot control. ;)

As some people have mentioned just about every other sport out there has as much if not more potential of causing a person injury than paintball. Just because we shoot a paint filled ball rather than hitting a larger and heavier object doesnt make our sport more dangerous.

[Old School 626]

1) you can not legislate ethics or morality - the drive-by-homeless-pelting crowd will still be there no matter how many laws you pass. I wish they'd use baseballs so maybe that sport would get banned and we can get more paintball on TV.

2) Playing in non-designated areas: Think about this from a public safety aspect, if you are playing in a park where people will be riding horses or having a picnic, it's not a good idea. On the other hand if you are a "good" distance from any public road/path etc. similar to the requirements of discharging a firearm, go wild, have a ball and remember to take your trash with you, leave it cleaner than when you came.

[MechWarrior]

Golf - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a golf club
Hockey - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a hockey stick
Baseball - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a baseball bat or a baseball
Lawn Darts - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with lawn darts
Horseshoes - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a horseshoe
Tennis - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a tennis racket
Field Hockey - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a field hockey stick


Great Point! Everyone needs to keep in mind there is a thin line when starting to ban things or putting restrictions on them. I think it is very obvious that a paintball/paintball gun will not kill/harm anyone over many other sporting good items (ie: Baseball and Bat). I know as a baseball player for many years that I have had way more injuries playing it than in my 15 years of paintball.

So the question is; are we going to start banning kids from playing anything that could harm them? Also, are we going to need parent supervision at every pickup football or baseball game that the kids play in the parks now? I think not. The answer is in how these kids are being parented. I would have never gone driving around shooting people w/ a paintball gun and neither would my children. I sure hope the same for those of you that have them as well.

[Maghog]

Is there any state that has actually classified a paintgun as a firearm? I know a few tried.

madcrisis- as a 16 year old responsible player, would you have been willing to take a one or two hour class promoting safety in paintball, or would that have turned you and your friends off right from the start?

Great responses, with an obvious theme. Calling paintguns 'firearms' would all but destroy the sport, but at the same time the desire for more awareness is there.

I like the concept of sporting goods equipment, but can we get that to sell when it comes down to legislation?

[OneUp]

So what are they?
sports equipment.

not a toy; sold to kids; abused daily.

[robnix]

Here's my take on it showing other sports:

Golf - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a golf club
Hockey - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a hockey stick
Baseball - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a baseball bat or a baseball
Lawn Darts - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with lawn darts
Horseshoes - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a horseshoe
Tennis - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a tennis racket
Field Hockey - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a field hockey stick

Yet none of the above has any special classification. They are sporting goods items that COULD be used to cause harm.

Yet none of these sports has a primary objective that just happens to be shooting people.

[Chaos_Theory!]

Yet none of these sports has a primary objective that just happens to be shooting people.

That really doesnt matter, at all.

[robnix]

That really doesnt matter, at all.

Sure it does, the primary action of the other objects listed doesn't involve striking another person.

[robnix]

I remember reading somewhere that in a town/city in florida, to make crime decline they made it almost mandatory for everyone of age to carry a gun. Guess what happened, crime went way down.

You're thinking of Kennesaw, GA.

[Chaos_Theory!]

So what, compare the items between different sports that do hit people (including other people) and tell me paintballs cause more damage or its a more dangerous sport.

[robnix]

So what, compare the items between different sports that do hit people (including other people) and tell me paintballs cause more damage or its a more dangerous sport.

I never said that paintball was or wasn't more dangerous, all I said was that the comparisons weren't that valid because of the difference in intent.

[Chaos_Theory!]

The comparisons were brought up in the first place because of the dangerousness if i recall correctly.

[robnix]

The comparisons were brought up in the first place because of the dangerousness if i recall correctly.

Read his post, he brings them up after mentioning vandalism.

[madcrisis]

im not sure if i would have taken the class. i probabky would not just go out and take a class if i didnt know if i was going to like the sport or not. If i knew i was going to like it and know what i know now i would defintely take the class. however back when i started playin (i was 12) i probably would never have taken the class because i wouldnt be sure if i would like it or not. Like everything else in this thread, being able to take a class has its ups and downs. Also if a class was mandatory for kids i feel it should be mandatory for adults also. Like in NJ to get ur boating safety certificate it is mandatory now matter what ur age.

[Beemer]

When I checked up on transport of Paintball guns in Illinois, I was told it is considered a toy but is to be treated as real when transporting. ie, open breach, not loaded, no ammo near by, etc, etc...





Here's my take on it showing other sports:

Golf - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a golf club
Hockey - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a hockey stick
Baseball - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a baseball bat or a baseball
Lawn Darts - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with lawn darts
Horseshoes - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a horseshoe
Tennis - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a tennis racket
Field Hockey - I could easily hurt/maim/kill you with a field hockey stick


Scratch the Jarts. They were BANNED by the CPSC. Know Why. Three people were killed by them that is why. :( Ya it was an accident but just three of them. We have two folks killed by our gear.[accidents] Reasons dont matter. The fact is two people are Dead because we are stupid.

Lets see. Watch out for..........

The CPSC...Two Deaths already.
The EPA......VO filled paintballs[not good]
DOT...........No hard standards and specs for the way we handle and use 4500psi pressure vessels.