Is paintball dead?

[Corbet]

I've been playing paintball for 8+ years now and it seems like the industry has really slowed to a crawl. AGD hasn't released anything in years and every company I remember being popular has gone out of business. Hell, I remember when the Halo hopper was incredibly popular and THE hopper to get but nowadays I don't even know what is worth buying.

Hell, every paintball field in my area has closed down. One was doing very good business and randomly closed on one summer day and never opened again. Another closed down due to some safety violations (??) and I don't think they ever reopened.

Why? There's the obvious "smart parts" factor, but I figured it would rebound by now. I come back to these forums every few months and it seems like everyone is disapeering.

[punkncat]

Well, there are lots of reasons for paintballs slowdown. A lot of it has to do with the economy. The shutdown of paintballs grassroots companies is due in part to both the economy and the litigation.
Players leave the sport for many reasons. What became prevelent in open play after the electro became dominant and the "arms race" has a lot to do with it in my opinion. Just not a whole lot of fun for a new player in the average game these days.
With lots of other fast hoppers on the market it is no question as to why an aged hopper design is not the most common anymore....

Relax, paintball may be returning to a more normal state, but it isn't going anywhere.

[Ninjeff]

yea, paintball is here to stay. It'll have some flux, but its certainly not dead.

[2BAD4U]

when do you think paintball will hit the olympics ??????

[Toll]

Never. It's a game. Not a sport. Internally people can't even decide on their own rules let alone a unified system.

[drg]

Many Olympic sports rely on specific sets of rules that may differ from recreational and/or professional play. That said I'm not optimistic about paintball's chances as an Olympic sport ...

[Swampy]

I feel Like I've had to Much to post but I got a good one brewing. Sorry for the nonsense post but I want to remember this one.

[Maghog]

Paintball used to have a spirit, kept alive by a close relationship between the industry and the players. It was great fun, everyone felt like they were part of something really cool, like a secret club.
So then paintball got popular, getting closer to the mainstream, and the game changed in many ways. A lot of old school players lost interest and left, but the worst thing that happened was that the industry started to get greedy.
A part of the industry separated itself from the community and started to use it instead of contributing to it. As a result the industry fought within itself and the casualties were immense. Those who remain don't really care about the game very much, it's mostly just for the money.
So within the industry, I would say that the spirit of paintball has definitely died, and out on the official playing fields it has lost its taste somewhat. The one place where you can still find paintball's true form is is with the old gunners, going out in the woods and doing it their way. I know for a fact that my friends still follow this practice because it is paintball in its purest form. No refs, no sponsors, no hype, just a bunch of guys with honor, old beat up equipment, air, paintballs, and a big backyard. If you can find something like that, you'll find that the spirit of paintball is actually still alive.

[Al_Steel]

^^ Couldn't have said it better ^^^ :cheers:

[fire1811]

Paintball used to have a spirit, kept alive by a close relationship between the industry and the players. It was great fun, everyone felt like they were part of something really cool, like a secret club.
So then paintball got popular, getting closer to the mainstream, and the game changed in many ways. A lot of old school players lost interest and left, but the worst thing that happened was that the industry started to get greedy.
A part of the industry separated itself from the community and started to use it instead of contributing to it. As a result the industry fought within itself and the casualties were immense. Those who remain don't really care about the game very much, it's mostly just for the money.
So within the industry, I would say that the spirit of paintball has definitely died, and out on the official playing fields it has lost its taste somewhat. The one place where you can still find paintball's true form is is with the old gunners, going out in the woods and doing it their way. I know for a fact that my friends still follow this practice because it is paintball in its purest form. No refs, no sponsors, no hype, just a bunch of guys with honor, old beat up equipment, air, paintballs, and a big backyard. If you can find something like that, you'll find that the spirit of paintball is actually still alive.


You are 100% correct IMO. I was going to type a similar reply but you hit the points. Nice post.

One more thing that I believe has hurt paintball. Cheating has become accepted. Back in the 90's and early 2000 I saw people get kicked off teams for cheating.

[Army]

Not to forget the old rule still in force in many leagues and fields about the RT's trigger....but nothing about ramping.

Wiping is "accepted" if you get away with it.

So, new kid gets his WallyWorld gun, goes out and gets blasted by 15 balls AFTER he KNOWS he tagged some guy good. Instant never again player.

"Fun" has been made obsolete by hype and the industry.

[AltogetherAndrews]

I don't think it's dead by any stretch, but it has certainly changed. What used to be a matter of, you know, playing paintball has become an often quite split market of woodsballers, tourney players, scenario/big game players, simulation geeks, old school events, etc. And of course there is something to the notion that the commercial industry has changed, a lot. And that has inspired segmentation and change in other areas.

What I'm certain of though is that in the end, people are still drawn to the most basic aspects of the game. In running a field, we have also specialized to remain competitive. We are promoting the tactical angle, giving groups of players tasks that are more dependent on team work and so forth. And that's really fun as hell, even if it sometimes means that the game of paintball becomes just a component. But in the end, regardless of how hard we promote this angle, the core of the business and the reason we can even exist doing what we do is the average joe wanting to play a fun game of paintball. In the woods or on a course with artifical obstacles and goals, it doesn't matter. As long as Joe gets to play paintball that's all that matters.

That said, I certainly have some choice words for tourney snobs and their generally crabby attitude to all things less than neon-splashed. Some of these guys seem to think that waging a campaign against the weekend warriors is somehow crucial to saving paintball and make it more mainstream, and that's not a healthy mindset to have. Especially coming from the people who at the same time want the whole thing classified as an extreme sport. :tard:


Not to forget the old rule still in force in many leagues and fields about the RT's trigger....but nothing about ramping.

Wiping is "accepted" if you get away with it.

So, new kid gets his WallyWorld gun, goes out and gets blasted by 15 balls AFTER he KNOWS he tagged some guy good. Instant never again player.

"Fun" has been made obsolete by hype and the industry.

We will be cracking down on this for this season. We considered simply banning all electros and RTs, but I don't know if that's going to work. Maybe we'll allow them just for private games, and ban them from the public games. But that's still dodgy.

[pk5]

You can blame the industry for kicking itself in the butt.

5 years ago when i was first introduce to paintball, the game was a bit nicer and friendlier. People would show me how to set up my spyder cause i didn't know how to set it up properly. Now when i go to the local field, the kids with the most expensive marker think they rule the world. I had a kids just yelling at me to run forward, while he stand in the back with his dye and spray. Also the field, especially the advance field seem to has gotten more cocky and rude, to the point of trash talking, and using bad word while my little brother and sister are there. ( I got fed-up with it, so i grab my pistol and took them to the newbie field where they can actually play and not get yell at).

Just blame NPPL for all the flashy promotion without the honor of the game. It's even hard to find a good scenario game in san diego these day.

[AirAssault]

Like some have said here, I think it is the ramping and insane ROF. Now my favorite thing to do is play heavy gunner, I sit back, spray bunkers and allow the kids to move up, then I walk up to the next bunker..... well if I have to I will run. I don't have much time to play so get out maybe 1-2 x month so I pump out the paint when I do play. (2000 in a few hours/games) That being said, I do not put 16bps at a person, Ill fire 3/4 and then pause and continue. I do remember some of the best games I have played were with my 68 classic or VM 68magnum back in the early 90's, and of course we thought we were slinging paint then at 4-5 a second lol. I DO have an issue with being over shot, don't mind 1-2 bonus balls but 6-8 gets me a bit peaved off. I think 10 bps is plenty, but of course the agg kiddie whos mommy just bought him an $2000 ego will prob not agree with me.

[WARPED1]

when do you think paintball will hit the olympics ??????
Feb 30th 2011

[robnix]

when do you think paintball will hit the olympics ??????

Never. One of the main criteria for Olympic consideration is that there's an international body governing the rules of the game for international competition. Considering we can't even agree whether the game is properly played in the woods or behind blow up dolls I'd say the chance of paintball hitting the Olympics anytime soon is some where between zero and null.

And any reference to the Popular Mechanics article on this subject is moot. The article was plain wrong, paintball was never considered for the Olympics. You can find a list of events that were considered for each Olympiad on the IOC website.

[KC]

Like some have said here, I think it is the ramping and insane ROF. Now my favorite thing to do is play heavy gunner, I sit back, spray bunkers and allow the kids to move up, then I walk up to the next bunker..... well if I have to I will run. I don't have much time to play so get out maybe 1-2 x month so I pump out the paint when I do play. (2000 in a few hours/games) That being said, I do not put 16bps at a person, Ill fire 3/4 and then pause and continue. I do remember some of the best games I have played were with my 68 classic or VM 68magnum back in the early 90's, and of course we thought we were slinging paint then at 4-5 a second lol. I DO have an issue with being over shot, don't mind 1-2 bonus balls but 6-8 gets me a bit peaved off. I think 10 bps is plenty, but of course the agg kiddie whos mommy just bought him an $2000 ego will prob not agree with me.

Emag FTW.
Input pressure of 800psi and mechanical mode is "fair" for the kids using rentals and E-mode ramped gives the Ego owner a taste of what he is dishing out. Ill always shoot an agd emag because its the only marker that can let me do that.

It took me forever to go electro. Didnt like it, still dont. But when I need it, the firepower is just a switch away.

[Ninjeff]

Paintball hasnt changed, the clientel have.


When i started in 97 i was 17, and one of the youngest players at the field. When i joined my first team at 19 i was the second youngest on the team of 32 players. Everyone else was 23 or above. Thus the attitude of the game was more mature.

[thejere]

Its at every level of the game now:

http://www.p8ntballer.com/interviewcontent/20080121.shtml

When you try to suck money out of a sport, you start to change it. Often for the worse.
I hope most people posting here still congratulate the player who tagged them or politely tell the new kid how to shoot from cover.
I think the best model for any sport is to look to the x-games (seriously) because year after year, you hear the athletes say that they are just happy to be out advancing the sport, to be able to compete with the best and to be there when a fellow athlete has a medal winning day.

We are a counter culture in sports, so lets stick together.

[Zone Drifter]

It's the economy man, don't you know we're heading to recession? Look at the gas prices! :rolleyes:

Nah, I think it's just because the only equipment people are introduced to are Tippmann and Smart Parts, and so It only seems like things are slowing when really it's overproduction from certain companies. On my team of 9 guys, I'm the only one who doesn't run with either a Tippmann or SP8, and I'm certainly proud of it.

[halB]

You can blame the industry for kicking itself in the butt.

5 years ago when i was first introduce to paintball, the game was a bit nicer and friendlier. People would show me how to set up my spyder cause i didn't know how to set it up properly. Now when i go to the local field, the kids with the most expensive marker think they rule the world. I had a kids just yelling at me to run forward, while he stand in the back with his dye and spray. Also the field, especially the advance field seem to has gotten more cocky and rude, to the point of trash talking, and using bad word while my little brother and sister are there. ( I got fed-up with it, so i grab my pistol and took them to the newbie field where they can actually play and not get yell at).

Just blame NPPL for all the flashy promotion without the honor of the game. It's even hard to find a good scenario game in san diego these day.


Ya I don't play on the sup' air fields anymore. Too much testosterone. I mean, how sad is it when someone who's been playing for 8+ years can't go play on the advanced field, because I don't feel like getting scarred up by some punk kid with an ego who's shooting hot in ramping mode. I don't need that. It didn't used to be like that. It used to be people played the same in the airball fields as they did the rec fields, a clean game that was there for fun. But now they all wanna be like a NPPL star, so they let it go to their heads.

Isn't this the problem with the FIELDS?! I mean, it is only possible to play how the fields allow you to play. Right now, all the fields want to do is sell you paint paint paint. So they like ramping, they love bonus balling, and they encourage all of it. Too bad there aren't anymore fields out there that are set up to allow you to enjoy yourself the most, not sell the most paint.

[Ninjeff]

Its at every level of the game now:

http://www.p8ntballer.com/interviewcontent/20080121.shtml

When you try to suck money out of a sport, you start to change it. Often for the worse.
I hope most people posting here still congratulate the player who tagged them or politely tell the new kid how to shoot from cover.
I think the best model for any sport is to look to the x-games (seriously) because year after year, you hear the athletes say that they are just happy to be out advancing the sport, to be able to compete with the best and to be there when a fellow athlete has a medal winning day.

We are a counter culture in sports, so lets stick together.


good article.

Seems like the biggest problem is that big business has realized there is money in teh sport, and the suits have moved in, set up shop, and are running everyone out of town with snakey deals and back ally dealings. Just 10 years ago all you had was a bunch of good, honest, blue collar type guys working to make the sport better. Inventing what they had to or finding another honest guy that could. Now the suits have come to play and they dont do buisness deals with a nod and a handshake like people did in paintball before. Now you need 26 page contracts and lawyers and ties and such. You need an army of legal rats just to keep the ship afloat. There is very few honest people in the sport now, and even those honest peopel grow increasingly jaded.

Soon the influx of new, opportunistic players that grew out of the paintabll boom of the late 90s early 00s will wither and fade after they realize that they cant keep biting teh hand that feeds them. Hopefully then all we (paintball) will be left with is the good honest guys again with a true love for the sport.

hopefully.

[AltogetherAndrews]

Isn't this the problem with the FIELDS?! I mean, it is only possible to play how the fields allow you to play. Right now, all the fields want to do is sell you paint paint paint. So they like ramping, they love bonus balling, and they encourage all of it. Too bad there aren't anymore fields out there that are set up to allow you to enjoy yourself the most, not sell the most paint.

Yeah, we need to sell paint. If everyone came in, bought a box of paint each and went on to drop those boxes from the nearest cliff, that'd be ideal for the profit margin. And that is really a damned shame. I guess that's why we are hoping this tactical angle with pre-designed missions etc takes off to the point where we can get people interested in paying for that, for the whole package. Ideally, this would inspire gameplay that is less focused on spraying paint while still allowing us to profit. We'll see, but the reality right now is that if we want to keep this field open, we need to focus on selling paint, and lots of it.

[Ninjeff]

Ya I don't play on the sup' air fields anymore. Too much testosterone. I mean, how sad is it when someone who's been playing for 8+ years can't go play on the advanced field, because I don't feel like getting scarred up by some punk kid with an ego who's shooting hot in ramping mode. I don't need that. It didn't used to be like that. It used to be people played the same in the airball fields as they did the rec fields, a clean game that was there for fun. But now they all wanna be like a NPPL star, so they let it go to their heads.

Isn't this the problem with the FIELDS?! I mean, it is only possible to play how the fields allow you to play. Right now, all the fields want to do is sell you paint paint paint. So they like ramping, they love bonus balling, and they encourage all of it. Too bad there aren't anymore fields out there that are set up to allow you to enjoy yourself the most, not sell the most paint.


I agree with the first paragraph.

The second just tells me that you have some cruddy fields in your area. The field i go to does very well, and doesnt shove paint in your face and encourage you to ravage the other players.
heck, one of teh most profitable days for the field is SPE. Thats Spring Pump Event.

[nathanjones008]

I think that it is tha lagging economy. People are having a tough time paying their mortgage on time( they have more important things to worry about.). There is some crazy inflation going on. The ecomony has transformed to " i want" to " i need" items.

With that being said, once the economy picks up, i am sure paintball will pick and. New customers will emerge. :clap:


I think there is plenty of inovation in the paintball world. We have many great products on the market. So paintball is not dead!!!!!!! :clap:

[Maghog]

Consider this though: you are a newbie and after a day of playing for your first time you decide to take the plunge and buy your own equipment. You don't have much as far as funding goes, so you go for the low-ball market which is flooded now. You know nothing, don't think to ask for advice, and pick out the best looking thing that you like in your meager price range. You buy the cheaper agitating loader, and decide to run on CO2 to keep costs down.
By the second or third time out there playing, your setup cracks, breaks, discontinues functioning or whatever. The field guys snicker to themselves, the hot line you bought it from doesn't really give a crap because they got their money, so they say,"call the manufacturer." So you do, and if you are lucky enough you can send it in to have your cheap gun fixed. It comes back and then doesn't take long to malfunction again.
What do you do now? Do you go for a new setup you can't afford, or just ditch the whole concept of paintball and buy a new pair of those cool shoes that are supposed to make you jump really high?

When I used to play, everyone was helping everyone else. Experienced players were glad to help newbies get through the tough times, not to mention the fact that if a product wasn't any good, then it wouldn't be seen for long. We did it because we didn't want to just shoot at "targets" on the field but because it helped elevate the quality of the game.
There are definitely still helpful people out there on the fields, but they are far and few between. Some of my most precious memories involve helping people start out playing from nothing to one day having them take me out on the field, and then having them thank me for getting them there.
That's paintball!

[rabidchihauhau]

Its at every level of the game now:

http://www.p8ntballer.com/interviewcontent/20080121.shtml

When you try to suck money out of a sport, you start to change it. Often for the worse.
I hope most people posting here still congratulate the player who tagged them or politely tell the new kid how to shoot from cover.
I think the best model for any sport is to look to the x-games (seriously) because year after year, you hear the athletes say that they are just happy to be out advancing the sport, to be able to compete with the best and to be there when a fellow athlete has a medal winning day.

We are a counter culture in sports, so lets stick together.

That interview with Bob was funny and sad at the same time. YEARS ago I warned him about working with Gino, and I warned him about going with the NXL...

***

The economy is in a slump and is having an effect. The interesting thing this time around is that slumps in the overall economy used to have little to no effect on paintball; people were willing to tighten their belts on other things to keep playing just a little longer and usually managed to ride out the slumps. But that was when most people playing earned their own money and could make those decisions for themselves. Now, most people playing are playing with someone else's money, and mom and dad are not about to slip a mortgage payment or kite a rent check so little Billy can keep shooting paintballs.

If Bob is reading the writing on the wall correctly, NXL is in trouble. The funniest part of this whole thing is that when ProCaps saw my USPL format in 2000, they thought so much of its ability to generate paint usage that they kinda went off and did it themselves (without including me). What they saw was not the reality. The format was designed to REDUCE paint consumption and place the emphasis on manuever and positioning. Had they worked with me and the format, NXL would be the LEAST EXPENSIVE format to play these days. The jokes on them. Soon they'll have nothing, which at least makes us even... (Think about it for a second: if you are asking paint manufacturers to step up and support professional sports, doesn't it make sense for the format to be as inexpensive to them as possible? Duh!)

The ONLY thing that will keep paintball from becoming an 'also-ran' will be a recognition by the INDUSTRY that they must regain some control over the market and pump promotional dollars into the grass roots. That means fields. That means public safety campaigns against outlaw play, it means dollars spent advertising fields rather than teams, it means industry-supported social networking that's designed for the occassional and new player, not some exclusive $1500 a gun club. Gangsta must GO. But then they wouldn't be able to hide their thieving and lying behind a bad-boy culture, so I'm pretty sure we can forget about that happening.

[halB]

What can I do to help paintball? More specifically, what can I do to help AGD? I think this sports survival is linked to the companies that made it fun and great to begin with.

[Ninjeff]

If paintball was gong to go the way of the Dodo it would have done so a loooooooooong time ago. There is something special in the sport. Ive never taken someone to play who hasnt wanted to play again.

[Hilltop Customs]

If Bob is reading the writing on the wall correctly, NXL is in trouble. The funniest part of this whole thing is that when ProCaps saw my USPL format in 2000, they thought so much of its ability to generate paint usage that they kinda went off and did it themselves (without including me). What they saw was not the reality. The format was designed to REDUCE paint consumption and place the emphasis on manuever and positioning. Had they worked with me and the format, NXL would be the LEAST EXPENSIVE format to play these days. The jokes on them. Soon they'll have nothing, which at least makes us even... (Think about it for a second: if you are asking paint manufacturers to step up and support professional sports, doesn't it make sense for the format to be as inexpensive to them as possible? Duh!)


Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but at the end there it sounds like your saying "the paint manu's will be more supportavie of a format which will reduce their costs"

If i was a paint company, I would want the pros to play the absoulely most spray and pray format possible. I would want players to be FORCED to carry 8+ pods a game. I would want them to be ramping to 20+bps. As the paint company I would not care about the dollar value of the pros usage, hell I will give them paint for free. I'd be more interested all the wannabes out there who emulate these pros and will dump paint like its a bad habbit just to be like them.....I only want 2 differences between the pros and the wannabes: 1. Wannabes hugely outnumber the pros 2. The wannabes are forced to pay retail for paint while pros can have it for free. Both of which are true. Plain and simple paint compaines are loving the e-gun race.

Back in the day it used to be "my gun can shoot farther than yours." A friend of mine(an engineer by profession!) still claims his autococker can "shoot farther than anything other than a flatline." But we all know that is plain and simple BS. Well the same thing is going on today...."my guns shoots faster than yours"......that may be...but your not allowed to shoot that fast anyhow.


On another note:
Paint prices should have dropped a long time ago. The raw materials it costs to produce paintballs is next to nothing. Yes there is a large initial startup cost, but that has long been recouped and they are making straight profits now. In mass production volume = profits. from pump, to semi, and now to electronic there has been a monsturous jump in volume, but yet no major price reductions.


IMO:
If paintballs dead, its the paint companies who killed it.
or
If paintballs dying, its that paint companies who are silently holding a pillow over its face while it gasps for air.

[Indignant]

paintball isn't dying, your love for it is. there are still a million kids out there feeling the same thing you felt the first time you played on any given weekend, it just isn't there for you (or me) anymore.

admit it, when you started playing if you got lit up you'd shrug it off, play more and have a great time. now if you get lit up you go online and complain about how it used to be. it isn't how it used to be, it is how it is. if you don't enjoy it anymore you don't like the game, you liked it.

[Ninjeff]

paintball isn't dying, your love for it is. there are still a million kids out there feeling the same thing you felt the first time you played on any given weekend, it just isn't there for you (or me) anymore.

admit it, when you started playing if you got lit up you'd shrug it off, play more and have a great time. now if you get lit up you go online and complain about how it used to be. it isn't how it used to be, it is how it is. if you don't enjoy it anymore you don't like the game, you liked it.



:clap:


Well, ok i dont exactly agree with you on all accounts. When i started i never got lit up like some kids get lit on the air ball fields of today. granted, i started in 97......but still. I think most good fields out there do a fine job of seperating the newbs form the the more advanced crowd. I dont think thats it per se'. I cant think of too many times ive seen a brand new rec player get rocked by some more advanced player. And the times i HAVE seen that, i said something to the player. But those times have been few, and far between.

Still, i think your first paragraph is well said indeed.

[Hgblues]

I totally agree that most of the problems stated are due to the Field Owners being incompetent. There are 2 fields in my area, both of which run 50 to 120 players each on most weekends, both which have strict safety rules (2 headgear violations and your day is done) neither allow ramping during rec play, and if some hotshot with a new gat thinks he's gonna go shoot up all the new kids that are there for the fun of the game, he'll get put in his place. Both fields support successful tournament caliber players, and well trained staff ref's.

Now, there have been several fields pop up over the years in this area, but only 2 stable enough to remain. And it's not because the push paint, it's because they make sure that the player that comes in with 50 bucks or so to spend for the day, gets the most out of his 50 bucks , enjoys his day, and cant wait to come back and do it again. Control and responsibility is DEFINITELY the field owner and staffs job. Don't let idiots run your field, or you'll be known as one.

As far as paint, I payed 49 bucks a case at a tourney this past weekend. 8 years ago at a scenario game in Orlando at Waynes World, I paid 90 bucks a case for dimpled up crap RPscherer. So, I dont buy the argument that paint prices shouldn't be so high. I do agree with the 10 bps cap in tourneys, but doubt it would ever happen. The 13.3 bps cap is much better than the 15.6 cap. Some say they cant tell the difference, I could tell a huge difference. In 8 prelim games in a 3 man event, I barely shot over 1 case of paint.

The tricky balance is, the more affordable paintball is, the more people try it and stay in it. The more expensive paintball gets, the higher profit margins go, but the fewer players can afford to stay in it. The key here? Without the player base, there is no paintball industry. :cool:

[Ninjeff]

I totally agree that most of the problems stated are due to the Field Owners being incompetent. There are 2 fields in my area, both of which run 50 to 120 players each on most weekends, both which have strict safety rules (2 headgear violations and your day is done) neither allow ramping during rec play, and if some hotshot with a new gat thinks he's gonna go shoot up all the new kids that are there for the fun of the game, he'll get put in his place. Both fields support successful tournament caliber players, and well trained staff ref's.

Now, there have been several fields pop up over the years in this area, but only 2 stable enough to remain. And it's not because the push paint, it's because they make sure that the player that comes in with 50 bucks or so to spend for the day, gets the most out of his 50 bucks , enjoys his day, and cant wait to come back and do it again. Control and responsibility is DEFINITELY the field owner and staffs job. Don't let idiots run your field, or you'll be known as one.

As far as paint, I payed 49 bucks a case at a tourney this past weekend. 8 years ago at a scenario game in Orlando at Waynes World, I paid 90 bucks a case for dimpled up crap RPscherer. So, I dont buy the argument that paint prices shouldn't be so high. I do agree with the 10 bps cap in tourneys, but doubt it would ever happen. The 13.3 bps cap is much better than the 15.6 cap. Some say they cant tell the difference, I could tell a huge difference. In 8 prelim games in a 3 man event, I barely shot over 1 case of paint.

The tricky balance is, the more affordable paintball is, the more people try it and stay in it. The more expensive paintball gets, the higher profit margins go, but the fewer players can afford to stay in it. The key here? Without the player base, there is no paintball industry. :cool:


1,000,000% Agreed with the bolded statement.
I know one of the best rules ive ever seen is the 20' rule we have at my field. No one is allowed to shoot anyone if they are within 20 feet of each other. Works wonders for rec games. its a genius rule thats pretty simple, and works wonders.

[Indignant]

you rarely see the kids with the Spyders or other WalMart setups they can afford quitting the sport. the ones that quit are the guys on PBN selling off 6 big dollar guns that occasionally get cycled. they aren't quitting the sport because they can't afford it, they are quitting the sport because they stopped having fun.

[Corbet]

paintball isn't dying, your love for it is. there are still a million kids out there feeling the same thing you felt the first time you played on any given weekend, it just isn't there for you (or me) anymore.

admit it, when you started playing if you got lit up you'd shrug it off, play more and have a great time. now if you get lit up you go online and complain about how it used to be. it isn't how it used to be, it is how it is. if you don't enjoy it anymore you don't like the game, you liked it.

I guess I'm jaded by the fact that the last time I played at a local field there was literally 10-12 teenagers, all sporting $1200+ paintball guns, spraying paint everywhere at 16+ BPS.

I've always been a fan of speedball over woods but not anymore. It's become less about skill and more about who can spend more on paint.

[Indignant]

and it seems more about excuses!

can their guns shoot through bunkers? can their guns aim themselves at you? can their guns run themselves down the field?

they can put more paint in the air than you, i guess. that's all it takes to win? you're trying to come up with reasons why you don't like the sport and not facing that it just isn't your thing anymore.

[rabidchihauhau]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but at the end there it sounds like your saying "the paint manu's will be more supportavie of a format which will reduce their costs"

If i was a paint company, I would want the pros to play the absoulely most spray and pray format possible. I would want players to be FORCED to carry 8+ pods a game. I would want them to be ramping to 20+bps. As the paint company I would not care about the dollar value of the pros usage, hell I will give them paint for free. I'd be more interested all the wannabes out there who emulate these pros and will dump paint like its a bad habbit just to be like them.....I only want 2 differences between the pros and the wannabes: 1. Wannabes hugely outnumber the pros 2. The wannabes are forced to pay retail for paint while pros can have it for free. Both of which are true. Plain and simple paint compaines are loving the e-gun race.



You're falling for the same false logic that they fall for every time.

A league that seeks mass-media attention is being presented for marketing purposes. You want to spend as little money as possible to get an effective and compelling advertising message across. The sport should give viewers the feeling that 'they can do that too'. Blasting tons of paint only serves to send the message 'I can't/don't want to do that'. If they go further and check the game costs out and compare it to what they saw, they become even more convinced that they can't afford to play.

A sports league for paintball should be nothing more than marquee advertising. In fact, at events, the games should be of secondary consideration to the selling and promotion of the sport at the trade show. If Tippmann is selling 'scenario' guns, the 'sport' should be doing things that support and promote the use of those guns...

On TV, the mere mention of 'professional league' confers that status upon the players and teams. How the game on the field is played is unimportant - except of course you want it to be exiting, interesting and approachable by the viewer.

If you educate everyone into believing that they have to shoot four cases a day in order to play effectively, all you are doing is INSURING that your game will ONLY appeal to folks with lots of money and/or your customers will only last for a short period of time. If you make the apex of the sport (pro) something that truly requires skill above and beyond the ordinary, you give everyone something to aspire to, with the added benefit that any version of paintball people play is 'legit', cause none of it is 'pro'.

In the meantime, the companies can better afford to support a league and players, and have the money to spend on promotion, rather than realizing that one to two skids per per team per practice session, all year long, is just not a sustainable economic model.

Flip it on its head. If providing ALL of the paint for an entire season of league play were actually approachable, don't you think the manufacturers would be falling all over themselves to be THAT paint company?

[rabidchihauhau]

paintball isn't dying, your love for it is. there are still a million kids out there feeling the same thing you felt the first time you played on any given weekend, it just isn't there for you (or me) anymore.

admit it, when you started playing if you got lit up you'd shrug it off, play more and have a great time. now if you get lit up you go online and complain about how it used to be. it isn't how it used to be, it is how it is. if you don't enjoy it anymore you don't like the game, you liked it.

LOL. when I first started playing there was no such thing as 'getting lit up'. There were mass surrenders - but I was never forced to surrender (just too good, I guess...)

I don't complain about how it used to be either. I simply point out that it WAS better back in the day - better players, more responsible companies, better fields and a better experience.

Lit up. LOL. That's SO paintball from the 90s...

[halB]

You're falling for the same false logic that they fall for every time.

A league that seeks mass-media attention is being presented for marketing purposes. You want to spend as little money as possible to get an effective and compelling advertising message across. The sport should give viewers the feeling that 'they can do that too'. Blasting tons of paint only serves to send the message 'I can't/don't want to do that'. If they go further and check the game costs out and compare it to what they saw, they become even more convinced that they can't afford to play.

A sports league for paintball should be nothing more than marquee advertising. In fact, at events, the games should be of secondary consideration to the selling and promotion of the sport at the trade show. If Tippmann is selling 'scenario' guns, the 'sport' should be doing things that support and promote the use of those guns...

On TV, the mere mention of 'professional league' confers that status upon the players and teams. How the game on the field is played is unimportant - except of course you want it to be exiting, interesting and approachable by the viewer.

If you educate everyone into believing that they have to shoot four cases a day in order to play effectively, all you are doing is INSURING that your game will ONLY appeal to folks with lots of money and/or your customers will only last for a short period of time. If you make the apex of the sport (pro) something that truly requires skill above and beyond the ordinary, you give everyone something to aspire to, with the added benefit that any version of paintball people play is 'legit', cause none of it is 'pro'.

In the meantime, the companies can better afford to support a league and players, and have the money to spend on promotion, rather than realizing that one to two skids per per team per practice session, all year long, is just not a sustainable economic model.

Flip it on its head. If providing ALL of the paint for an entire season of league play were actually approachable, don't you think the manufacturers would be falling all over themselves to be THAT paint company?


You sir are one smart cookie. You know the sport and you know business. All you're saying is "if you're a company that's going to advertise, then advertise in the most cost efficient way to get your message across." And all these jerks can think is "But the paint companies should be brainwashing us into shooting tons of cases!"

Advertising was invented in the 1800s to convince us to buy things we didn't need, to overconsume. Convincing anyone to play paintball is already convincing them to play a sport they don't need to play, and convincing them to overconsume. You can't then convince a person to OVER overconsume. Advertising, especially sponsorships, just aren't THAT effective.

Wouldn't it be grand if the tourney scene worked like a pyramid? The bottom division would be ramping/full auto. The next would be uncapped semi auto, followed by capped semi, followed by purely mechanical markers, and the top would be for pumpers. Logically, the more you take away someone's pretty toys and tools, the more they have to rely on skill and technique.

Actually, I think the top tier should only be allowed to play with VM-68s :)

[rabidchihauhau]

these messages were imparted to the industry time and again for over two decades. The essential message is: study other, similar industries that are successfull and then emulate them.

Nope, not gonna do it. We're paintball, we HAVE to reinvent the wheel cause we're special.

Look at any other professional sport. How do they do it? Do they have a pro league that 'anyone' can get into? No. Would anyone be watching the NFL and buying Packers Beer Stines if they could go play in the superbowl just by paying for the entry fee? No - because there's NOTHING SPECIAL about it. You don't need to dream or aspire, all you have to do is pull out the credit card.

Look at baseball. The road to the pros is long, arduous and selective; little league, high school ball, college ball, farm teams. maybe a try at the 'bigs' if you're lucky.

In the meantime: the kid goes through four or five gloves growing up, several sets of uniforms and cleats, multiple bats, league membership fees and, ultimately, they end up playing in a softball bar league. Once they leave home, Mom pulls the $24.95 player posters off the wall in the bedroom and uses the foam number 1 hand (9.95) to wash the car.

Who supports and underwrites those things? Major League Baseball. Why? So that you keep spending money on MLB stuff for your entire life. They're not trying to get you to go pro. And they don't ask you to spend your life's savings to become and stay a fan. Of course, if you WANT season box seats and a gold-plated ball, they'll sell you that too, but the minimal price of entry is a five dollar ticket to the local farm league games.

Think they make all their money off of season passes? Nope. They realize that the pro league is only the marquee advertising draw for a multi-billion dollar merchandising industry, and they've got everything in its proper place.

[BigEvil]

If you educate everyone into believing that they have to shoot four cases a day in order to play effectively, all you are doing is INSURING that your game will ONLY appeal to folks with lots of money and/or your customers will only last for a short period of time. If you make the apex of the sport (pro) something that truly requires skill above and beyond the ordinary, you give everyone something to aspire to, with the added benefit that any version of paintball people play is 'legit', cause none of it is 'pro'.



OMG we agree. (Checks outside for Armageddon) . :D

[rabidchihauhau]

armageddon outta here...

[Village_idiot]

There have been a lot of reasons listed in this thread for paintballs apparent decline. I believe there's a little bit of truth in every one.

In my opinion, everyone must share a bit of the blame. Society in general is proving itself incapable of supporting paintball as it existed in 80's and 90's. Society has told athletes from every discipline for a couple generations now that its ok to cheat as long as you don't get caught. You've got steroid use and corked bats in baseball and radio bugging in football for quick examples. The problem doesn't exist with only athletes either. People are no longer content to be second best. People are willing to claw, cheat, steal, and back stab to get that #1 spot and society encourages this. CEO's are no longer willing to invest in the people and time to create the best product in the market. Its much cheaper and faster to engineer a situation where customers no longer have a choice and litigate into the ground any company that tries to enter that market space. Yet this is the sort of behavior investors encourage with their investment $$$.

On top of this is the common view of paintball as a sport. I don't see paintball as a sport. I see it as a framework for a sport and every person has their own idea of what the rules and setting for this sport should be. Unfortunately, society is teaching us that if others don't share the same ideal, we should 'take our ball and go home' and start our own division, league, group, whatever. People are no longer willing to concede the small issues in order to remain a cohesive whole. These splinter groups delude themselves into thinking that their ideal is the true ideal for paintball and begin waging their 'holy war' on everyone who doesn't happen to share in their ideal.

Is paintball dead? No. But enjoying the game as it exists now takes a different frame of mind than it did in the past. You have to be able to enjoy watching a paintball break on an opponent and know that you bested him/her even if they don't leave the field. You have to expect to get hit with a few more paintballs than you did previously.

will paintball ever go back to the way it was? Probably not. Unless society as a whole is able to completely reverse directions this will never happen. The paintball community can reclaim a lot of what has been lost but it would take compromise from everyone. Spend a little extra to support the companies and organizations that make an investment in paintball as a whole, not just their own little piece of the pie. The best thing anyone can do though, is spend some time with young and the new players. Show them that there are good skills to learn in every environment and format. Show them how to take care of their equipment so their investment lasts. If they walk onto the field with an old stingray2 they picked up off ebay, don't laugh at them and alienate them. Show them how to care for the gun, how to use what could be considered weakness in the equipment to strengthen the player. Just make yourself available to those who could learn from you.

please forgive the long post. Even if you don't agree with everything i say, i hope everyone who reads this can find the truth in here. The future of paintball is todays newbies.

Long live paintball!

[halB]

Look at any other professional sport. How do they do it? Do they have a pro league that 'anyone' can get into? No. Would anyone be watching the NFL and buying Packers Beer Stines if they could go play in the superbowl just by paying for the entry fee? No - because there's NOTHING SPECIAL about it. You don't need to dream or aspire, all you have to do is pull out the credit card.


Ahhh good sir, your logic and intelligence is impeccable, but your history is a little rough.

You must understand the super bowl was a desperate attempt to increase stadium seat sales. In fact, back in the day, ANYBODY could play pro football. It was seen as scummy, underhanded, and not a nice sport. Pro football was BELOW college football, which was seen as THE sport of kings. The Grange was the first really really good college football star to go play pro ball, in the 1920s. You know all those "bowls"? They were all created in the depression to increase ticket sales.

But you ARE right in the end, and mayhaps you just didn't feel like posting that history lesson for the people. Pro football could have disappeared. It was on its way out. And the commissioners saved it. They made it what it is today, a respectable sport. If we could follow this model, and create a format that people can actually WATCH and would pay money to see, then there is a future, and there is hope.

[rabidchihauhau]

I was not detailing the history of the NFL - or the NBA or...I was presenting the example of a mature, successful professional sport as it exists today.

The history of those other leagues was studied minutely prior to the initial creation of the NPPL - and their examples were placed on the table at that organization's formative meeting. All of it, including their sandlot roots which were VERY analagous to paintball at the time.

[Indignant]

rabid, i wasn't directing my post at you at all. from what i remember reading of your posts it'd be like me trying to teach Yao Ming to be 7 feet tall

[halB]

I was not detailing the history of the NFL - or the NBA or...I was presenting the example of a mature, successful professional sport as it exists today.

The history of those other leagues was studied minutely prior to the initial creation of the NPPL - and their examples were placed on the table at that organization's formative meeting. All of it, including their sandlot roots which were VERY analagous to paintball at the time.
I'm going to be honest. I have a degree in history, and I'm currently trying to find a use for it, hence my post. :)

[cockerpunk]

You're falling for the same false logic that they fall for every time.

A league that seeks mass-media attention is being presented for marketing purposes. You want to spend as little money as possible to get an effective and compelling advertising message across. The sport should give viewers the feeling that 'they can do that too'. Blasting tons of paint only serves to send the message 'I can't/don't want to do that'. If they go further and check the game costs out and compare it to what they saw, they become even more convinced that they can't afford to play.

A sports league for paintball should be nothing more than marquee advertising. In fact, at events, the games should be of secondary consideration to the selling and promotion of the sport at the trade show. If Tippmann is selling 'scenario' guns, the 'sport' should be doing things that support and promote the use of those guns...

On TV, the mere mention of 'professional league' confers that status upon the players and teams. How the game on the field is played is unimportant - except of course you want it to be exiting, interesting and approachable by the viewer.

If you educate everyone into believing that they have to shoot four cases a day in order to play effectively, all you are doing is INSURING that your game will ONLY appeal to folks with lots of money and/or your customers will only last for a short period of time. If you make the apex of the sport (pro) something that truly requires skill above and beyond the ordinary, you give everyone something to aspire to, with the added benefit that any version of paintball people play is 'legit', cause none of it is 'pro'.

In the meantime, the companies can better afford to support a league and players, and have the money to spend on promotion, rather than realizing that one to two skids per per team per practice session, all year long, is just not a sustainable economic model.

Flip it on its head. If providing ALL of the paint for an entire season of league play were actually approachable, don't you think the manufacturers would be falling all over themselves to be THAT paint company?

exactly right on.

poeple love to play paintball. you see them all the time come in in groups and play with rentals against each other and its good fun! and they want to come back and play again.

but they look up the cost of even becoming a regular recballer, with a decent setup, playing every weekend, and they can't do it. not even to mention the staging area attidutes and all the rest taht goes with being a noob in paintball, so they dont.

the goal here is to keep poeple playing, not make a quick buck off them. lifelong players is the goal, not 15 year old kid who will play for 2 years and be done.

of course the MBAs have no idea whats going on so they are just making it worse, by giving the firepower and BPS of a pro in a rec ballers hands. what does that do? make him be able to play even less! so now he is even more unlikly to become a regular becuase his job at the buger joint only lets him play once a month!

i recently posted this in regards to smart parts in particular on another forum mainly talking about SP claiming to have saved paintball with teh ion -

as for bettering the industry, giving new players a 17 BPS cheating gun that only works half the time might not be as helpful as your business plan might have said it would. marketing to 15 year old kids is a just a poor business plan in general, and its a big reason why this industry is sucking. poeple with stable jobs, there priorities correct, and a love for the sport dont care about 170 buck guns. no, its 15 year old kids with there moms paycheck in hand that buy the gun and forget about it a year and half later. bad business plan. you wont see PPS losing business becuase of the recent hits in the industry. it doesn't take a degree in business to see the glaring holes in this "market to hero worshiping teenagers" as a long term strategy.

and -

back to this failed business plan, and the whole "we saved paintball with the ion" right you did ... what did the ion do? it gave noobs the firepower of expireneced players. good for them right? WRONG. think about your typical 15 year old kid who buys an ion, probably paying for this with a 6 buck an hour part time job, or his parents money. that kid works for a month, buys an ion. goes to play paintball. how much do you figure it would cost him, a day of paintball, at 15 BPS, and at 7 BPS? so, the ion is just another one of these exteremly short sighted failures. becuase after a summer working at a burger joint, only getting to play once a month cause thats all he can afford, gets rather tiresome after a couple of years. so, he quits. right there, you just expeleined the paintball industry for the last 4 years, or since the ion came out. now maybe if that kid had bought a tippy or a spyder, and was rolling at 6-8 BPS instead, now he can play every weekend. and he has a fun time doing it becuase hes not flushing money down the toilet either. now after a year, maybe he can buy a mid end, or a high end gun. and now you have a life long player.

[rabidchihauhau]

indignant - no worries; I take nothing personally until it gets personal :)

good line about Yao - but please. I think I made a mistake once...(or as my father once said when asked by my mother if HE had ever made a mistake "Yes. Once." she made the mistake of asking when that was and he replied "when I asked you to marry me..."

Seriously; I make mistakes just like the next guy. I'm just good enough to conceal most of them.

halB; the only really good use for such a degree is to serve the unenviable task of reminding us how many times in the past we've made the same mistakes...cause sure as fecal matter, no one will ever heed the warning in advance...

(I think the far-in-the-future-aliens who discover our long lost civilization will sum us up with the following epitath: They NEVER learned from their mistakes.)

[BAZOOKA_Boy]

I started 9 years ago, and i kinda know what you mean by the spirit dying, though that is not true for all situations/places, but in general yes, ultra cocky tourney players have turned the game into a fashion show, and who has the better looking equipment...

I personally think it depends on where you go, a local field with the same old boys that you play with can be a great day, no matter what! of course we have a few new players there, and at the fields I play at we get penalized a game if we are not civil or helpful to new players that are having trouble...I have formed many a new players by encouragement and support to let them get the kills...its a win win situation, as I have more players to have on my team that are confident in their skills, and so does the other team making the day much more enjoyable...

though I go to the tourney field about an hour from my house, and everyone wipes, and the day just ends up being a bad one unless you join in the low business of wiping and overshooting, which sucks, and its defiantly not newbie friendly...

so it depends on where you go, and how its run, but paintball is not dead, its just slowing down for a bit, it will pick back up,!

[Corbet]

and it seems more about excuses!

can their guns shoot through bunkers? can their guns aim themselves at you? can their guns run themselves down the field?

they can put more paint in the air than you, i guess. that's all it takes to win? you're trying to come up with reasons why you don't like the sport and not facing that it just isn't your thing anymore.

Excuses? An aspect of the game has changed, and I have every right to complain about said aspect. It isn't an excuse, it's something that has changed the game for the worst IMO. Not only does this type of gameplay suck, it sucks for people just getting into the game with rentals or a crappy Spyder.

The game, as people have said, is now about who has the most expensive flashy gun, who is decked out in DYE covered pants, Jerseys, gloves, ect.

[rabidchihauhau]

here's WHY the 'money' is ruining the game:

SPORTS are supposed to be about skill, training, perseverence, fortitude and a little luck.

Go watch ANY sports movie: the story is basically the same: underdog, through hard work, support and love of friends, the development of inherent talents (or the use of a single talent to the nth degree) WINS out over greed, sloth, hubris, cheating AND money.

Paintball has taken that paradigm and perverted it so that its really all about the money - BUYING your way to the top. Sports are supposed to be about anything BUT letting money buy your cheap win.

If you were to remake Hoosiers, or Rudy or even Happy Gilmore based on the 'true story' of paintball, the hero would reluctantly be dragged into the contest, everyone would give him little or no chance of succeeding, he'd luck out, capitalize on native skill, pull a smart move or two, get right up to the finals when everyone had counted him out - and then take a bribe from the bad guys to throw the whole thing so they could continue to market their crap to their adoring (and happily undisappointed) fans. Go watch Dodgeball: instead of reneging on the deal to sell the gym, the movie would have ended with Globo Gym winning. Now imagine that for a second: you've just watched that whole movie, laughed like a silly clown through much of it, gave the Average Joes encouragement from the stands (I mean the couch) cause, after all, The Average Joes is really just you and me fighting against The Man, Globo Gym makes their offer, its accepted and GLOBO GYM WINS! GLOBO GYM WINS! end of movie.

I hope you feel like you need to take a shower, cause that's how it makes me feel.

[Ninjeff]

Really? Because i dont have alot of money, (the money i DO have gets invested into the game well, with good, quality equipment) and i can constantly rock guys with much more $$$ invested. With the "high powered" Shockers and Dye wiz-bang guns and matching clothing lines. If money buys you skill in paintball, then how is it that a guy with nothing more than an X-Valved Mag, 1000 rounds for the 8 hour day, and a white t-shirt can beat the kids with PM7s set to ramp 2 full cases and matching gear?

How?

Skill, experience, and practice. How is it that the most feared person on the field is always a dude named James with an old school rock and cock pumper and a brown tshirt wrapped around his head to keep the sweat out of his old and beat up profilers? How? because the dude can snap shoot quick, with dead on accuracy and he knows the game.

Skill trumps cash in paintball. Always has, always will.