ever wonder...

[bound for glory]

short question, just wondering what you guys think. here it is: do you ever wonder if tom ever thinjks about jumping back in and "righting" the sinking ship that is agd? i love agd, i've been in scince #379 and i can't help but think wtf? if ga devil can sorta kinda make something, and ya got all these other electro or pneumo mags that are gonna come out "someday", why can't a real cutting edge(or one that just works) mag be made by "the man".

[nmib]

because it cost money man.

[halB]

I wish they were hiring. I would love nothing more than to help what I feel is the smartest company in paintball. Mr. Kaye, if I can do anything to help AGD, let me know! Hell, even with smart parts it's still possible to build a mechanical gun with all the features and all the performance.


edit: Just shoot me a pm. Hell, have your lawyers shoot me a pm first, I'll sign anything as long as I get to work with/for you!

[Dark Side]

I wish they were hiring. I would love nothing more than to help what I feel is the smartest company in paintball. Mr. Kaye, if I can do anything to help AGD, let me know! Hell, even with smart parts it's still possible to build a mechanical gun with all the features and all the performance.


edit: Just shoot me a pm. Hell, have your lawyers shoot me a pm first, I'll sign anything as long as I get to work with/for you!


Your lip gloss has smeared.

[halB]

Oh it's been smeared off a long time ago. But the second I found out that you could unscrew the powertube with the spring, I vowed to be a fanboy.

[Indignant]

He probably thinks about it every once in a while. Or he probably thought about it... I don't see it happening.

[Steelrat]

I'm sure he hates seeing it falter. Building something from scratch is a source of great pride, and one would always hope that it would carry on. But what can he do...

[Dark Side]

I'm sure he hates seeing it falter. Building something from scratch is a source of great pride, and one would always hope that it would carry on. But what can he do...

Innovate. The same way he did 2 decades ago. Promote and possibly push for the open source ideas people have here.

If I had the means to build the ideas people have here to test design theory; I'd do so in a heartbeat.

I'm not trying to knock down you post but if anyone has the (for lack of a better word here) fortitude to do so it would be TK.

[Shane-O-Mac]

Oh it's been smeared off a long time ago. But the second I found out that you could unscrew the powertube with the spring, I vowed to be a fanboy.

Huh? What do you mean about removing the power tube with the spring? :confused:

[halB]

because it cost money man.
Businesses make money. If it costs money to run a business then you are running a charity.


Huh? What do you mean about removing the power tube with the spring?
Dude at my brick and mortar showed me! The powertube tip can be unscrewed with the main spring! It's flipping sweet!

[Indignant]

Businesses make money. If it costs money to run a business then you are running a charity.


haha?

[bound for glory]

just seems to me to be almost a cop out on toms part. hey, no slag here! i love the guy and i would never use anything but an agd gun. but he has to see whats being done by people like ga devil. yeah, the guys a butthole and maybe a theif, but i had a devilmag. when it worked, it turned heads at castle. people were really coming up to me and saying things like "i had a mag back in the day, i thought they went under". really! i'm 40. in a real dumb move i sold my emag. the devilmag had alot of trouble so i sold it. i wish i did'nt, but i could see ga devil was not the guy i wanted to have to rely on if my gun **** the bed(which it did). and if i had a $ for every one who is gonna make a better electro mag...common tom, you see this...can you at least chime in and say something?

[Warwitch]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand here it comes.....

[nmib]

Businesses make money. If it costs money to run a business then you are running a charity.

Correct. So when is the last time they spent money on developing new product? When was the last update in the prototype lab? Oh mid 2003.

About time for new product right? I mean.. its been five years and AGD isnt running a charity. They must have hundreds of thousands of dollars from all the Tac-Ones and other AGD variants flooding the market.

Thanks for the economics class pops. :rolleyes:

[bound for glory]

the thing that ticks me off is when someone pulls this garbage; we've all seen it, someone jury rigs a mag to shot like the 2nd coming...everyone sez "you should start making guns like that, i'd buy one in a new york minite, here, take my money today!" and then the maker of said frankenstined automag sez " well, it should be ready in...bla, bla, bla". what a load . hey, i know tom must be having fun doing whatever hes doing, and the guys probly in no need of a) money, b) the headach that paintball is today, and c) maybe he just does'nt care anymore. we(the few, the proud, the cumps of the agd family) are very uniqe in that we do stand by our mags, and when i had my devilmag at castle 2 years ago, and it was rippin, i really thought someone got it right. i know, i should'nt even be saying this stuff...i have sold off all my mags, and that was dumb. but i'm a family man. time and money are tight in todays day and age. but spring is in the air, and i want to play again. i just want to di it with a mag. :confused:

[AGD]

Well I am still around and listening to what you say. As you can imagine the obstacles are many and large. But I can tell you its not all over yet.

AGD

[Ninjeff]

Well I am still around and listening to what you say. As you can imagine the obstacles are many and large. But I can tell you its not all over yet.

AGD

:headbang:

[Indignant]

if i had a mustache i'd twirl it

[jade_monkey07]

Twirly twirly

[bound for glory]

well, thanks for the word , tom. hope is a good thing :)

[chafnerjr]

How very interesting. AGD jumps in and says, "more to come" and then we get a picture of Mr. Twirly mustache... I love this forum :D In any event I'd like to buy more things from AGD like a pewter XValve but don't we all love the custom nature of the mag? I'll admit that I am building my first Mag from scratch right now. I am having so much fun finding all the pieces I need knowing that I will be the only one around with a setup like mine... I think a lot of the mag community feels this way. AGD is great and I wish they were a little more active, but I'd still be searching for the custom stuff for my marker just to be different and to show off. :cheers:

[halB]

Well I am still around and listening to what you say. As you can imagine the obstacles are many and large. But I can tell you its not all over yet.

AGD


What if I told you I had a design for a LP mag (yes, it would be LP!*) that would be, conceivably, the smallest and lightest gun on the market. Oh, and it's all mechanical, with the same trigger pull and weight of an electro. Oh, and it uses the automag design which you already hold the patents to. And it would allow you to redesign and resell a whole new line of level X's. And, what if I told you I've been trying to give this idea to you (all I want is a gold mag and a mill ;)) I just have no idea how to go about handing the design over to you. Clearly there are legal issues and all that crap which get in the way of business.


Marker designs haven't changed since 2k. Don't you think it's time for the next generation?


*I feel that LP is all a load of hooey anyways. It's just a nice byproduct of the redesign that makes it LP, not anything purposeful.

[AltogetherAndrews]

I'd imagine there is more to it than just marker design these days. My background is in visual design and development of marketing material, and as such I'm really noticing an increasing emphasis on this aspect of the paintball equipment industry. Not always with optimal results, mind you, but there's still the matter of being visible and making yourself and your product both attractive and accessible to consumers in a sea of competing products. Which adds a cost, and an extra step between making and selling the product.

Even reseller sites are as much image as they are product these days, and evidently the cost of image and strong branding is balanced with using the image to sell things at ridiculously high prices.

It's interesting to see that actual fields don't seem to have really been swept up by this though, but I guess most operate on either local familiarity or legacy so I suppose it's not that strange.

Sorry, this seems a bit tangential, but I would imagine this is a real hurdle. Everything from developing strong branding to something as seemingly simple as web site accessibility factor into this.

[VTLO910]

Well I am still around and listening to what you say. As you can imagine the obstacles are many and large. But I can tell you its not all over yet.

AGD

We all have life issues, but I'm glad to see "The Man" loves us enough to let us know he is listening...

Tom, we know that you know your loved here!

The world, and AGD still needs guys like you...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/vtlo910/TomKaye.jpg

Hope you enjoy the Humor Tom...

Although, I would totally VOTE Tom for President of the US...! :headbang:

[halB]

I'd imagine there is more to it than just marker design these days. My background is in visual design and development of marketing material, and as such I'm really noticing an increasing emphasis on this aspect of the paintball equipment industry. Not always with optimal results, mind you, but there's still the matter of being visible and making yourself and your product both attractive and accessible to consumers in a sea of competing products. Which adds a cost, and an extra step between making and selling the product.

Even reseller sites are as much image as they are product these days, and evidently the cost of image and strong branding is balanced with using the image to sell things at ridiculously high prices.

It's interesting to see that actual fields don't seem to have really been swept up by this though, but I guess most operate on either local familiarity or legacy so I suppose it's not that strange.

Sorry, this seems a bit tangential, but I would imagine this is a real hurdle. Everything from developing strong branding to something as seemingly simple as web site accessibility factor into this.


My background is history, and I particularly studied the history of advertising. Keep the Aspidistras Flying. You are right. But this is more out of necessity.

Let me tell ya'll a lil vignette. The first towns to industrialize in Britain experienced something new. All of a sudden, there were more goods than there was demand. This was an inversion of the market that had existed since the dawn of time. Let's take combs and the town of... Surrey as an example (random example, they probably never made combs in Britain judging from their hair...).

Big ole factory moves in. They produce 20,000 combs. But the town only has a population of 10,000, and half of them already had combs. Now here is what happened. The factory closed down. They had too many combs and not enough customers. In fact, they never even looked to the next town over to sell their combs. This is how stupid people were back then, and this is the beginning of advertising.

There was too much of a product and not enough demand. So they advertised to do two things. To get people from the next town over to buy (expanding your market/audience/whatever) and convincing the people who already had combs to throw their combs out and buy new mass produced combs (creating a fake need in the consumer's mind that wasn't there to begin with)

So what does this have to do with paintball? Well, even though the sport is growing, I would hazard a guess that there are now about 2-3 paintball guns per player. These include the ones being produced right now in factories in China and all the used guns out there that would be suitable for recball play.

Now, the factories could create new guns, and people would buy them just like people bought guns with eyes even though they already had paintball guns - because guns with eyes were such an advancement that the consumer could readily see their need for it - without advertising.

But, there are no new advancements. The guns are merely lighter and sexier each year. Eyes, anti chop bolts, electronic frames, "LP", they're all old hat. There is no self evident need for these new guns.

So, the companies must create this need in us. I pity the fool who has an 07 ego and feels the need to buy the 08. But there are plenty of morons out there like that. And these morons are impressed by these newer, sleeker, svelter guns. You better believe that companies are spending millions on your visual marketing - they sure as hell aren't spending it on R&D.


So what do combs and morons have to do with AGD? Well, anyone remember the 99/2k autococker? Anyone who was around back then can easily distinguish between the old cockers, and the newer ones. They redesigned the internals AND the externals.

And in the same year, Mr. Kaye released the automag 2000. Can you distinguish between the newer mags and the older ones? Only by looking inside the powertube! Same rail. Same bead blasted body. Same everything on the outside. Mr. Kaye, you did not do yourself a favor by releasing the exact same thing. I mean, would a TINY bit of milling, like some cool geometric patterns, REALLY be that terrible a thing to do to your guns?

Here's the conclusion that I've been trying to get to: Yes, you need to use "visual marketing." But you don't need to spend millions of dollars to hire some ignorant consultant who's guesses are just as cromulent as your own. Just offer deluxe editions that have better milling and coloring. The ULE bodies were a great step, but perhaps too late to save the old mag brand. It appears that Mr. Kaye is already well aware of everything that I and you have said. The tac-one is the example. It's just... get some new designs will ya! How many designs were created in CAD when those slug bodies came out? Is it really impossible to buy the rights of those off the creator for like 2 grand?

And, you know what would crush ANY visually engineered gun? A gun that was so revolutionary that people KNEW it was better without advertising. A gun that people wanted without advertising. The last gun that pulled that feet off was the Matrix. Talk about a hideous gun. A giant shoe box of a gun who's design left a LOT to be desired, it was still snatched up at a fevered pace because that thing shot ropes! I mean, when I first saw one of those shooting online my jaw hit the ground! THAT was a leap forward. THAT was innovation. THAT didn't require a lick of advertising for people to know what it was, what it did, and why they needed to own it.

Which is why I am here. I am trying to hand over this design - For a new gun that represents a new generation. A gun with a single tube design that is only ~.75 inches long. The only reason why I'm on this forum typing my fingers off is because I have no other way of reaching or impressing Mr. Kaye - aside from posting my plans online which I would be a fool to do.

tl;dr: You are right altogetherandrews. Mr. Kaye does need to work on visual design. That is the one area that he has not kept pace with. But even more than that, there is always the need for that new gun, that new leap forward. Visual design creates a need, an urge, that shouldn't exist because a rational person should know there is no difference between gun A and gun B. A new leap forward creates a need that is real, that speaks to every person.

[trevorjk]

if i had a mustache i'd twirl it


post of the thread :rofl:

[Twistedpsyche]

hahahah.. cromulent....... love it!!!

[Chrishew09]

Well I am still around and listening to what you say. As you can imagine the obstacles are many and large. But I can tell you its not all over yet.

AGD
That that statement makes me smile :)

[Warwitch]

Well I am still around and listening to what you say. As you can imagine the obstacles are many and large. But I can tell you its not all over yet.

AGD



I think I just filled the cup..... :hail: Thats the best news Ive heard since Jim's release from the "institution." :p

[mostpeople]

Well I'll chime in and give my 2 cents on this issue. My opinion can pretty much be summed up by the Sp-1. Its an obvious smart parts ripoff of the Tac-1. It's technically electrical, simple, and has a 'low force bolt' just like the Tac 1. Not to mention.. it looks just like the damn thing. However when Smart Parts can sell them for 150 or whatever they go for, and AGD sells theirs for close to 500, its easy to see who will get picked. Nevermind the fact that the Tac-1 is obviously superior in design, doesnt require and batteries, could probably be run over by a semi and not feel it etc..etc.. it doesnt matter.

This is the problem Tom, AGD, and we all face... the X-valve/lvl 10 system is probably the best paintball firing mechanism in the world (obvious brown-nosing or statement of fact?), yet the valve itself costs twice what the whole SP-1 costs.

So until They can make X-valves and lvl 10 bolts for 100 dollars, and R/T Pro's for 150-175 dollars, you are not going to see people buying them like they buy the SP markers. Same goes for the ion, 200 dollars gets you a 17bps ramping electro thats simple and easy to use.. again nevermind the fact that its a piece of crap. And in this world of disposable markers, the automag isn't very competative.

Am I off base here? Or do you guys agree?

[michbich]

I agree.

[Twistedpsyche]

Look at this way. The SP1 and similar can be seen as entry level. When you decide to get serious you upgrade that's all there is to it. A lot of people don't wanna mess with electro and if you can build a superior product that functions as well if not better, the real players will go for it.

If AGD did come out with something new that functioned as well or better than what they have now, perhaps at lower pressure (since that's the big thing these days) I'm sure you'd sell plenty. Let's face it, the mag is not dead. New people are buying them all the time. I've been playing for only 5 years and I just started with mags less than a year ago and I'm hooked. Many of my friend would LOVE to get a nice mag, but just can't afford it. So yes, affordability is an issue, but it's not the main issue. My friends all have their tippys and Ions, but all save up and say "Some day, I'll have a Mag!!!".

[mostpeople]

Yeah.. I know people still buy mags.. but I also know that the majority of people out there upgrade to higher end LP electro's..

[michbich]

I think it's also because people don't stay in the sport long enough. They start with a "cheap" marker, play with it a year, put it in the closet and move on to something else. So they don't reach the phase of needing a higher quality marker.

[mostpeople]

I think it's also because people don't stay in the sport long enough. They start with a "cheap" marker, play with it a year, put it in the closet and move on to something else. So they don't reach the phase of needing a higher quality marker.

que roguefactor with 'ramping is killing the sport' comments


j/k rogue I agree with you!

[michbich]

que roguefactor with 'ramping is killing the sport' comments


j/k rogue I agree with you!
Not just ramping, but high rates of fire in general.

[LK-13]

well i know this wont be much help, at this point, but should i ever come into a large wack of cash (lottery win, guns I'm building actually sell) i actually plan on buying my way into AGD.
and maybe contracting a hit on a couple of Agriculturists.
I know a couple of Gardeners that should be uh... planted!

[SR_matt]

while ya of course i wish a good company would be able to hit it big all the time there will always be a low and frankly after the "cheaper" phase of society a quality phase comes. people in general in society are starting to push back for quality in products. many specialty shops are popping up more and more but ti will be a slow road back to that type of thing every where.

now that the bps race is mostly over at least in any realistic manner now its about weight, balance, cost, and air efficiency. agd's more modern guns have weight on their side for the most part, the ease of maintenance is mostly there for them, balance is mostly there, cost in the long term is there but buyers may not see it but we all know air efficiency isnt here and the electro part has fallen out.

the things that would bring agd to more popularity would have to be electro/pneu frames readily available for reasonable price and air efficiency. some one with more physics ability than i could probably figure out what needs to be done but i would assume lighter bolt, lighter spring, and wider air passages if done correctly could provide it but its figuring it out and then be able to implement it. neither of which are easy to do or cheap.

-matt

[Chrishew09]

Something to keep in mind guys, AGD has always been high end, I do not think Tom's business model was to compete with the low end marker its just to difficult. Add up the number of low end vs. high end markers out there and you will see that the amount of low end greatly out numbers the high end.
In my humble opinion what AGD should do is make a pneumatic frame, and engineer the valve to operate down to about 400psi, I think the market is to flooded with electo markers right now.

[SR_matt]

and engineer the valve to operate down to about 400psi

just so clarify you do mean as the input psi (the reservoirs now only hold around 450 but the on/off is what is taking the 800)

a larger on/off should provide more surface area for the lower psi air to be able to provide more force and lower air consumption
-matt

[Warwitch]

Not just ramping, but high rates of fire in general.



I think the recent resurgance of pump players shows that we are all rapidly getting tired of markers that shoot "$6 a second" I think they should start using DPS (dollars per second) as the speed rating for new markers/hoppers. :cry:

[Chrishew09]

just so clarify you do mean as the input psi (the reservoirs now only hold around 450 but the on/off is what is taking the 800)

a larger on/off should provide more surface area for the lower psi air to be able to provide more force and lower air consumption
-matt
Yes, input pressure.

I was not aware that the on/off was the reason for the 800psi, learn something new every day.

[robnix]

I think the recent resurgance of pump players shows that we are all rapidly getting tired of markers that shoot "$6 a second" I think they should start using DPS (dollars per second) as the speed rating for new markers/hoppers. :cry:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[SR_matt]

Yes, input pressure.

I was not aware that the on/off was the reason for the 800psi, learn something new every day.

or at least its one of the reasons, recharge rate may be in there as well but ive found volume is more important than psi, when my tank full (4500) i get a lot more rt than when my tank drops down to 2000-2500 yet it still out puts the same 800 psi. but the normal psi that is held behind the bolt is about 450 so you can theoreticaly use a mag to 450 psi in your tank and on my mag at least i can get it down to 5-600, cant shoot much but can still shoot.

a friend had mentioned trying to do an lp mag and was pretty serious but he just ran out of time

-matt

[halB]

perhaps at lower pressure

My design is LP, but that's merely incidental. I don't really believe in this LP hooey anyways. I took a 440 grain arrow without vanes and shoved it down the barrel of me level 7 mag. It only shot out about 3 feet. It didn't even have enough power to put the tip into the ground. That's soft.

[Hilltop Customs]

My design is LP, but that's merely incidental. I don't really believe in this LP hooey anyways. I took a 440 grain arrow without vanes and shoved it down the barrel of me level 7 mag. It only shot out about 3 feet. It didn't even have enough power to put the tip into the ground. That's soft.

when you say lp mag what exactly do you mean? is it still blow forward spring return? If thats the case I hope you realize that lower pressure will require a softer spring....a softer spring means a slower return of the bolt, which has a chance of causing some major problems. The use of a softer spring can be avoided if the diameter of the power tube is increased, but then you run into intereference problems with the bolt.

Either way continually mentioning your "new design lp mag" is never going to accomplish anything because no one knows what your talking about. (i'm no telling you to disclose anything. I'm just saying theres no point in talking about something that you cannot reveal)


finally maybe i'm missing something buy what does shooting an arrow out of a paintball gun prove? I'm just not seeing what your talking about there?

[Ruler_Mark]

or at least its one of the reasons, recharge rate may be in there as well but ive found volume is more important than psi, when my tank full (4500) i get a lot more rt than when my tank drops down to 2000-2500 yet it still out puts the same 800 psi. but the normal psi that is held behind the bolt is about 450 so you can theoreticaly use a mag to 450 psi in your tank and on my mag at least i can get it down to 5-600, cant shoot much but can still shoot.

a friend had mentioned trying to do an lp mag and was pretty serious but he just ran out of time

-matt


The reason why is because there isnt 3k-4.5k behind the tank reg,, when you get lower the pressure recharge is slower up to the 800psi.

Centerflag patented some technologie in their dynaflows where the reg slowly increases the output pressure to compensate for the lower flow when the pressure is rechargering effectively eliminating the recharge difference when the tank is lower. This is the magic about why dyna's are crazy easy to RT.

[SR_matt]

The reason why is because there isnt 3k-4.5k behind the tank reg,, when you get lower the pressure recharge is slower up to the 800psi.

Centerflag patented some technologie in their dynaflows where the reg slowly increases the output pressure to compensate for the lower flow when the pressure is rechargering effectively eliminating the recharge difference when the tank is lower. This is the magic about why dyna's are crazy easy to RT.
ya i know the reasoning and basic physics behind why but it still gets annoying... then again gravity can be annoying some times too

lp vs hp. well some dont like lp others love it, in my experiences and setting up guns i have had better luck with lp set ups than hp, gotten better efficiency and less breaks with more consistent fps, now if its due to lp or just how that set up is, cant say or prove either way but for me LP works better over all
-matt

[halB]

when you say lp mag what exactly do you mean? is it still blow forward spring return? If thats the case I hope you realize that lower pressure will require a softer spring....a softer spring means a slower return of the bolt, which has a chance of causing some major problems. The use of a softer spring can be avoided if the diameter of the power tube is increased, but then you run into intereference problems with the bolt.

Either way continually mentioning your "new design lp mag" is never going to accomplish anything because no one knows what your talking about. (i'm no telling you to disclose anything. I'm just saying theres no point in talking about something that you cannot reveal)


finally maybe i'm missing something buy what does shooting an arrow out of a paintball gun prove? I'm just not seeing what your talking about there?


As to the arrow: If you nocked that arrow and pulled it back only half an inch on a 28" 60# pound it would fly around 10 feet and stick into the ground. It's really impressive how little energy you have to put into the system to get results. But, the mag was so weak in how it acted on the arrow. If the mag was really harsh on paint, or if LP was really softer on paint, I REALLY would have expected it to fly at least 7 feet from the bolt's propulsion. In other words, even though the mag is "HP" it sure is weak on the gun.

And of course no one has any idea about what I'm talking about. No one else has invented it. I just don't know what else to say. The only person I'd trust to talk to about this gun would be Mr. Kaye. I don't know why, but I just trust that man. I also know he'd do the design right and wouldn't cut corners. Anyone who can design a gun like THAT is trustworthy. I just don't know what else to do! I have this wicked sweet design and I can't even give it away! What the hell else can I do? You can't email the guy, you can't PM the guy, just what more can I do?

[SR_matt]

for the arrow, unless you had a way to seal the barrel even partially the arrow would fly a lot farther. of course it wont go out at all if all the air is escaping around it (its what .2 inch when a paintball is .68 so you have .24 on all sides of the arrow for air to escape around

-matt

[Beemer]

What the hell else can I do? You can't email the guy, you can't PM the guy, just what more can I do?

Well you can. Go here and decode his addy. :ninja: http://tomkaye.com/personal.shtml

[Geronimo7]

Well you can. Go here and decode his addy. :ninja: http://tomkaye.com/personal.shtml


:eek: well then :cool: :confused:

:D

i'm speechless

:cheers:

[Geronimo7]

oh boy :rofl:





somebody tell me i drank too many beers :spit_take

[Hilltop Customs]

As to the arrow: If you nocked that arrow and pulled it back only half an inch on a 28" 60# pound it would fly around 10 feet and stick into the ground. It's really impressive how little energy you have to put into the system to get results. But, the mag was so weak in how it acted on the arrow. If the mag was really harsh on paint, or if LP was really softer on paint, I REALLY would have expected it to fly at least 7 feet from the bolt's propulsion. In other words, even though the mag is "HP" it sure is weak on the gun.

And of course no one has any idea about what I'm talking about. No one else has invented it. I just don't know what else to say. The only person I'd trust to talk to about this gun would be Mr. Kaye. I don't know why, but I just trust that man. I also know he'd do the design right and wouldn't cut corners. Anyone who can design a gun like THAT is trustworthy. I just don't know what else to do! I have this wicked sweet design and I can't even give it away! What the hell else can I do? You can't email the guy, you can't PM the guy, just what more can I do?

keep a notebook, and keep it signed/dated for each day you add something into it. Once you have completed your design, get someone you trust(and someone who would be able to understand whats in the notebook, an attorney has added benifits) to sign and date the finished notebook as a witness. This is what was explained to me by a patent attorney. Its still not as "safe" as actually patenting the design, but he said it should hold up in court as prior art and is basically free. You still should never go around sharing designs, even if you have a notebook because it is still not as protectable as an actual patent. Also if your working for a compnay and are adding anything to the notebook on company time, they basically own everything in the notebook.



for the arrow, unless you had a way to seal the barrel even partially the arrow would fly a lot farther. of course it wont go out at all if all the air is escaping around it (its what .2 inch when a paintball is .68 so you have .24 on all sides of the arrow for air to escape around

-matt

I think what halB is trying to refrence is the speed/force of the bolt itself, nothing to do with the air pressure behind the ball/arrow(although the pressure will have an impact on how far the arrow flys). I was going to say the same thing at first. halB thats not really a good test because of a few reasons....your only result is how far the arrow flys, this is only a measure of how fast the arrow is moving when exiting the barrel. A bow and arrow applys a smooth acceleration, maintaining contact between the bow string and arrow through the cycle. Now if you had some way to look inside the firing chamber while you did you arrow test, you would see that the arrow only remained in contact for a split second with the bolt.....basically bouncing off and not being accelerated by the bolt. Angeling the mag up in the air would probably extend the time to arrow remains in contact with the bolt, and shoot the arrow farther.

Then there is also the fact that the bow and arrow uses the complete pullback to accelerate the bolt, while the mag bolt has to accelerate, decelerate, and come to a stop in the length it moves. What I mean by this is the mag bolt has an extremely short period of max velocity somewhere in the middle of its movement, while the bow has its max velocity as the string passes its resting point....which is the point where the string loses contact with the arrow.

And finally theres friction....as the arrow moves down the barrel it will incurr much more friction than when leaving a bow.

Were you trying to measure the speed or the force of the bolt? Both will vary greatly as the bolt goes through its movement. But for a bolt like the LVL7 its max force is at the start of its movement, and decreases to nothing as it reaches its max extenstion.