Aftermath of that Rabid/Rogue/BE Thread in PB Talk...

[Z-man]

I was too late and far too slow at typing to present this typically long reply that was going into the aptly named "cesspool" that was bulldozed by Army but I think I still wish to share my thoughts on the OT for however long it lasts...

Original post

One post, and nothing more.

There are very few threads on any forums that I screenshot the entirety of as a permanent character reference but this one shows me so much about so many of you that I would be foolish to not get it while it's only partly edited vs 1 month from now if it even exists.

I was looking for a forum to talk about paintball and organize meets and events and talk about making videos and fun stuff like that back when I got into the sport almost 10 years ago. AO was that place for me. Back in 2001 when I finally got on it was largely kept active by intelligent, sometimes highly educated people who liked the sport as well. Sure there were those I didn't care for but I didn't have to talk to them and they didn't bother with me.

Skip to 2005.
Right around the time I fell out of reality and lived in Wow for 3 years I decided (for several reasons) that AO was not longer what it was when I join it. I could have:

1-Stayed and did my best to try and make it the way I wanted by contributing.

2-Stayed and done nothing.

2-Stayed but pissed about how stupid people were and maybe made (or joined) a new website to piss about how dumb people had become (and how much smarter me and my friends were since we left that dumb site). I wouldn't actually leave see, I would come around and piss about it and then go back and piss about it on my site and piss on anyone trying to build anything or as one of the intellectuals mentioned "just start crap for something to do".

or

-I could leave.

The last example being foreign to most of you, what it means is that you generally don't contribute or even spend much time at the location. If there is something you feel you want to mention or say you might but leaving is not the same as getting mad with the people on the site, taking your toys and moving next door and then coming back EVERY FREAKING TIME YOU CAN FIND to spit on all those people that you now dislike. That is not leaving.


Skip to 2008
So I got extracted from WoW and besides the numbers changes I decided to make, I am all for getting back into paintball and all the fun I had. A quick check of AO found that it was not much better than when I left. So I start looking around for somewhere to find people that want to do what I want to do.

This PBL place seemed quite the happening place with a large number of the people I used to enjoy talking with and many new ones. So this this schism happens and I am faced with my 4 choices again:

1- Stay and try to help.
2- Stay and do nothing.
3- Stay and try to break it down.
4- Leave and go somewhere else.

Maybe I just never hung around the type of people that answered #3, but there seem to be a lot of them here. Last time I remember a site called thordic.com springing up for all the martyred people to go and council each other about the wrongs they had suffered (their egos I suppose). They laughed, they made fun, they spit and most of all, they came back to AO to spit,and so on and so forth on AO. It was very useful and I am sure it made them feel wonderful knowing how good it felt to have left that site and made this new one that was better in every way. I probably am never going to know because have never felt that I needed to go on a site "just start crap for something to do". I don't want to hang around that. What could I possibly gain?
http://www.zakvetter.com/images/linked_images/e-thugnocar.jpg
Anyone know what happened to that site (thordic)? I honestly don't know I mean I have not even bothered to type it in and see wait Ill go look now. OK... back from that, yes sir we got ourselves a thriving metropolis of activity there with the forums being offline and the snazzy index page. So, what did we accomplish? We made a site to piss and pissed for a while.. ran of new topics to piss about because you can only go over the same thing so many times. What did that leave? Sex, drugs and rock'n roll talk? Now there is a new thing to talk about that you can't find any any forum. Hey let's google "boobs" and make a big thread of our favorite choices while we discuss how pot is totally sweet and also these other people are really dumb.

So we have a new one out now and I have not been to that one either but I must ask. With it being a great success as I am sure it is and growing in leaps and bounds, what is the aim? Other than to piss on the people you don't like, what do you want to give people? I can only make estimations about the people that want to be there but I can look at how they present themselves.
http://www.zakvetter.com/images/linked_images/beo_community.gif
Again, what is it you are trying to build (if anything), or are you just here to be pissed? Did you want to attract or repel people like me?

Of all the places that I see available to me, (AO, PBL, PBN, MCB... that is all I can think of that have any population), None of them are exactly what I am looking for but some are closer than others. AO, I will stop by and say something if I think it's worth it, PBN, maybe if there is a really epic thread (epic meaning there is some level of logic involved). MCB is a nice place to talk tinkering but it has no active "lets go meet up and play at this field" aspect because that is not the purpose of the site.

So as it stands, especially having some power to make the site what I would like in a site, I'll throw my efforts and time spent on a paintball forum over on PBL. If nothing else, at least the people who "just start crap for something to do", who want to tear down something if they don't like it, the people who chose #3 on my list, can be kicked off.

I would liked to have seen this when Steelrat stepped up to the chopping block but at least he had the balls to say it. Well regardless, I should state where I stand as well. I do not want to hang around, and play with people whose highest ambition is to turn into an e-gang and jump from forum to forum being mad and looking for someone to gang up on. It's what children do, yell when they don't get their way and then go get a bunch of friends to come back and harass the person who wronged them. If that is your cup of tea, there is ALWAYS a new thordic.com that comes out for those reasons. Will it be around in 3 years as anything more than a URL?

[Ninjeff]

totally get your point.

But unfortunately, that doesnt make some people right. ON either side of the line.

Look, what you have is a large group of regular posters who, over the years, have gotten to "know" other people on the message boards. Over time friction will inevitably result. Alot due to disagreements in things, alot due to lack of "good" communication on the internet. Meaning, sometimes its VERY hard to discern the true meaning, or inflection, of someones words. And things do get taken wrong. And sometimes, its because people feel like they see BS. All sides do it. 9 times out of 10 things fizzle and people go about their own ways. Every once in a while, you get situation 10. Like the thread you speak of. In the end, where as you may be able to leave, some people here have both friends AND enemies on the message boards. Especially one as niche, yet large, as AO. Most threads are just self fufilled, and continue only because the people arguing just argue, the people complaining just complain, and then people complain about the complainers, and then a few people post wisebutt remarks about everyone complaining. We all do it.

in the end, the only failure is that alot of people wont admit to being wrong. Even in real life. I think its because its a natural male tendancy to try and be strong. Be Alpha Male. Being wrong means you arent strong, your weak and so the contest continues in a worded war of attrition. I used to be like that. Until i learned that a strong person admits fault, takes blame, and fixes what they can. Alot of times, like the PBL situation are because some people REFUSE to change rules, even a smidge, to accomadate some people who may have fallen through the cracks. One may ask, well, if we change rules now...its a slippery slope! And i dont think thats true. Sometimes you wage a "tactical retreat" in order to lose the battle but save the war.

I liked PBL. I truely did. I dont feel as slighted as some that Rogue turned out to be the big cheese. Meh. Doesnt bother me too much. rogue and i disagree, and have had a match or two, but i can live with him if he lives with me. The problem i had was the total unwillingness to bend to HELP people trying to do good things for our community. Agree with the out come or not, i dont think its a stretch to say that had Rogue left Cyber and Warpedmemphisto to their own devices and allowed them some type of breathing room to provide services we asked for, that PBL would have continued with the good user base, and continued to thrive exponentially from there on. If nothing else, imagine an internet forum where the mods adapt to the users neeeds, and a big cheese who isnt afraid to admit he didnt have it all figured out.
i dont go to PBL as much as i used to. There just isnt the new topics and lively discussion theer used to be. Which is a shame because i recall PBL really causing a stir with some "bigger" sites when it was at its peak.

regardless, i still dont have any ill will towards Rogue. Nor PBL. I just think its a shame that Some will fight (and im NOT just pointing at Rogue here) tooth and nail to win that small, trivial battle, instead of seeing the big picture. XMagterror did it right. People bashed him and bashed him, and in the end, he just worked, stayed quiet (mostly) and put his work where his mouth is. Granted, some of the QC is still at the learning stages, but his stratagy was "hey, no use fighting, i just gotta make what i want, try to do it right, and hopefully win over people with good work."

cant blame the dude for trying.

[drg]

Now I'll admit I'm not as engaged in this whole thing as perhaps I should be to comment on it, but I thought PBL was, like, the new thordic?

I thought that's what you were building up to, but then you concluded that you'll stick with PBL.

[93civiccpe]

I can't agree with Ninjeff more. I frequent a lot of the same forums that you mentioned Zack. PBL is off my list for now. Too much drama and bad-blood there for me now. Not that it's definite that I won't ever visit again, but it is highly unlikely. As long as Rogue is at the helm the outlook is bleak. He's proven over the years that he doesn't change.. just gets more arrogant and full of himself. That's what will keep a lot of us from returning to PBL. You have a lot larger user base over here at AO.. and AO was the site that was once truly great. Why not try to work on it, instead of a much smaller site that has taken a large hit due to the actions of the guy running it?? In either case.. best of luck Zack. I liked your videos and information back in the day, and hope you revive some of those.

[Chronobreak]

well as for the thread...

its an open forum and rabid has the right to say as he pleases, however contemplated or his intent of starting the thread.

however with the hipocracy of him attacking a product that he/his company dropped is pretty poor taste expecialy when he has little to no vested interest in it.

however i must agree with it that the consumers and when i say that i mean me since i appear to be the only one that ordered one who is openly upset.

of all that posted i have to agree with lohman as far as the consumer being left in the dark, not completely but until each deadline came then it was time to be open about things.

this not being the consumers fault as we had no prior knowledge

you get stupid people or aggresive e fighters anywhere for the most part.

dont forget we were plagued by one Don Miguel for a year or more of stupidity, imagine a place that doesnt try and correct that situation and is much more easily accesible and has more places to post and you got pbn

it appears to be people that get cornered in and feel that must retaliate or take the focus on them and put it onto someone else, il admit to it myself, but you gotta know when to call it quits and draw a line.

not even sure where im going with this post as i have jumped around, but if you cant find it worthwhile to post on a forum or are no longer into the sport, maybe its time to hang up the towel or just sit back and watch the show.

for what its worth i always appreciated your input on subjects

[Z-man]

Interesting that you thought I was building toward PBL being that way... Must be what I get for formulating thoughts at midnight after a long day. Let me use a more poignant example image.
http://www.zakvetter.com/images/linked_images/beo-rudz.gif
Out of curiosity if you thought I was building up to PBL being the analogy above who exactly did you see coming over to piss on things? Take a look at the people making the numerous quality post (and because I come across subtle, this is what we call "DRIPPING WITH SARCASM") and ask me, Z-man where do these people hang out other than AO? What do they want to contribute (or do they?).

I hate people who at every reply have a canned saying to articulate what they can't explain but that quote:

"All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

Well, I'm not going to do nothing. I will try and make something of someplace, and if one goes down I will look for another until I find what I am looking for. If I have to spell it out, I would hang around a site with RogueFactor than people like Rabid or BigEvil. Plain and simple. I want a place to gather people like-minded. I am not looking for a group of:
http://www.zakvetter.com/images/linked_images/ethugyall.jpg
but that is what I see in this thread (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227830). You tell me who you think is doing it? Is it inevitable that people have different opinions? Yep, is this the inevitable result? only with the mentality of the image above. Some people it seems are happier just being punks, and I don't want to be around punks. Stay here and be punks' go off to your site and be punks. Punks can't even do that! They follow YOU around looking to be punks wherever you go. What's that quote I used like 4x now? I just like to start crap for the sake of it OK.... you have fun with that now....

One side tries to make things, the other side does nothing besides piss on things and glad hand themselves. Go do your own research don't rely on me. Make sure you also look at edit dates. I keep screeshots for those reasons. People can cover their tracks when they can change the past.. unless someone has a screenshot to call that.

I would rather take a small site that has the people I want to hang around both in person and online than people that for WHATever reason have the desire to posse up and run around droppin bombs. Punks just drift around looking for fires to start and if they can't start any they go away and look for another place to do that. I would be REALLY happy to root that type of person out of a paintball forum and fill it with my type and that is what I am going to try to do.

When I have new material or things to talk about I will choose to NOT come over here and spit on other forums and go "see?! see?! you all suck and this is why I left!" If people choose to sit over here and talk smack about me, dude... go ahead. My reputation stands on it's own. You don't have to like me.

It seems really hard for some you to dislike someone and leave him alone... You group up, go an and nip nip nip nip like little yapping dogs until he FINALLY blows up. at which point you dance around and around and people watch. Most people say nothing, but when it's a vocal group of punks vs 1 person... people like to jump in on the side that looks bigger (it's a lot safer to do that too). So your highest ambition is to group up, surround someone and nip at them. If I had time to find a good video of a bunch of yapping little dogs nipping at a big one I would but I have to go to work now. So Ill just come back in 10 hours or so and see if anyone came to bring some true thug life over to this little post.

[drg]

Well ... just to let you know. PBL WAS that site where everyone pissed on and on about another site in the not too distant past. I think you returned just as it was collapsing over some Rogue-sourced drama. And we now know, apparently, who the head "thug"/"punk", as you put it, was.

I'm not buying this Rogue as victim bit. If people gang up on him it's likely they are all united by having first been his victims.

[punkncat]

Zman, there was much more involved in my words that you seem to be so happy quoting. The out of context reference to it completly changes what I percieve as my intent by saying it, and about the point(s) that me and your "apparent" buddy argued about it.

My intrest in "starting crap" generally had to do more with subject matter that was less than popular, not politically correct, or from a "devil's advocate" point of view. NOT at all to go on some site and say things about a person or group of people and start a flame war. Or at least not as often or blatently as you put forth above. That was my perception of it. Perhaps as the "intellectual" as you put it, I am wrong.


I tell ya brother, I really hate that things came down like this. I am not going to sit and argue with, or explain to you about why I feel the way I do. I have made it plain, as has everyone else. PBL had the promise to be a great site, and perhaps it still will. A lot of it will have to do with you and others (in similar position) there and your ability to be ambassadors to paintball. Not only that, but as you seem to be excersizing here, your ability to work a mop.

[Steelrat]

Well, were those people on PBL coming over to AO and posting about how great PBL was, and how much AO sucked? Because that's one of the things that Z-man is talking about. If you're going to go and complain in your own, new, shiney forum, go ahead. But don't go back to your old forum and start crap, then start talking about how great your new forum is. Just go and stay gone. It's treated like some secret society that only privilaged members belong to, so you can make little barbs, give each other a wink and the secret handshake, and act superior to everyone else because only you and a select few were able to rise above the legions of moronic sheep and find true enlightenment.

And, even during it's heyday, I didn't see a lot of AO slamming on PBL. I'm not sure how things are on PBL, I looked briefly and didn't see much crabbing there. But there certainly is a lot of drama on here.

Yes, Rogue brings a lot of this on himself, but it's like people search him out on here just to start trouble. Say what you want about Rogue, I don't think anyone can legitimately claim that he has stuck it to his customers. Yet, because he posted in a thread about poor business practices, certain people swooped in like vultures and started attacking him for various issues. When Rogue successfully defended himself and his business pracitce (read: chord bodies), rather than acknowledging the error and moving on, those same people just started tearing into him for anything they could conjour up, like being the hidden owner of PBL, thread deletions, the growth of prositution in America (okay, maybe not the last one).

This is all juvenile and stupid. If you don't like PBL, don't go there. You dont' have to run around screaming at the world like some crazy preacher perched on his soapbox at the corner. These stupid sigs, stupid location quotes, and all the other crap are petty and ridiculous. Feel free to go to whatever forums you choose, and there you can congratulate each other and slap yourselves on the back for being smart enough to escape the unspeakable evil that exists on whatever forum you left.


A lot of it will have to do with you and others (in similar position) there and your ability to be ambassadors to paintball. Not only that, but as you seem to be excersizing here, your ability to work a mop.

If you think for one second that Z-man is now, ever was, or ever will be Rogue's flunkie, you are sadly mistaken. If he even, for one second, thought that, he'd be out of PBL in a second. He honestly wants to create a place to discuss and grow the sport of paintball. It's great that because he objects to the actions of a certain group, you automatically label him and claim that he is just cleaning up Rogue's mess.

EDIT: You guys sound like President Bush. "You're either against Rogue, or you're with him."

[punkncat]

If you think for one second that Z-man is now, ever was, or ever will be Rogue's flunkie, you are sadly mistaken. If he even, for one second, thought that, he'd be out of PBL in a second. He honestly wants to create a place to discuss and grow the sport of paintball. It's great that because he objects to the actions of a certain group, you automatically label him and claim that he is just cleaning up Rogue's mess.


While it does appear to me that Z is coming here for some sort of damage control, I would certainly not think that he was the type of person to be a "flunky" as you put it.
As a mod there he does have certain well, I dunno the word for it, but he can help or hurt the situation by what he says and does. And in that, his coming here and making some explaination of his opinion, pov, etc. is in essense carrying a mop to clean up the mess that Rogue created for himself and the forum.
Just my opinion.
I think highly of Zman, and enjoy his well thought out posts.
The only point I disagreed with for the most part was that he took my comment out of context.

[Steelrat]

While it does appear to me that Z is coming here for some sort of damage control, I would certainly not think that he was the type of person to be a "flunky" as you put it.
As a mod there he does have certain well, I dunno the word for it, but he can help or hurt the situation by what he says and does. And in that, his coming here and making some explaination of his opinion, pov, etc. is in essense carrying a mop to clean up the mess that Rogue created for himself and the forum.
Just my opinion.
I think highly of Zman, and enjoy his well thought out posts.
The only point I disagreed with for the most part was that he took my comment out of context.

Rogue didn't make a mess alone, he had a lot of help. Frankly, I think he was more upset about my name being brought into it than anything to do with Rogue. Rogue's a big boy, he can clean up his own messes. But somehow I got dragged into the whole thing by one of the zealots, and that's just wrong. I speak my mind on here, but I don't mindlessly follow anyone. I've made fun of the sycophants worshipping Tom Kaye just as much as I'd make fun of someone humping Rogue's leg, or Doc Nickel's.

And can't your same logic be applied to BigEvil? I like him, but he came into that discussion and deliberatly lobbed a shot at Rogue, and then dropped it and changed attacks once Rogue (apparently) successfully defended himself. If we want the big names in the various forums acting as ambassadors, and exhibiting good behavior, you better apply that same standard to everyone.

[cyberave68]

http://www.zakvetter.com/images/linked_images/e-thugnocar.jpg
Ok so you calling people who "argue with you over the net" E-THUGS. Hmm that sounds like what Rogue does all the time. But yet you call me out for doing the same thing on another forum??? I stated my case and droped it a while ago and have not said anything since on there.


The last example being foreign to most of you, what it means is that you generally don't contribute or even spend much time at the location. If there is something you feel you want to mention or say you might but leaving is not the same as getting mad with the people on the site, taking your toys and moving next door and then coming back EVERY FREAKING TIME YOU CAN FIND to spit on all those people that you now dislike. That is not leaving.

I did leave so whats the issue with me?

http://www.zakvetter.com/images/linked_images/beo_community.gif

Again, what is it you are trying to build (if anything), or are you just here to be pissed? Did you want to attract or repel people like me?
I dont want to attract or repel anybody. Oh so I'm not allowed to give my opinion on another site? Its my opinion!!! People do it all the time. So because your Rogues new best friend you have his side of the story... Did you do your own research and contact me to see what happened before posting about me???? I think not but yet your flamming me over my opinion, which i belive i have that right, as do you....




So as it stands, especially having some power to make the site what I would like in a site, I'll throw my efforts and time spent on a paintball forum over on PBL.
As for this quote my reply is

Then why are you over here crying about it and pissing on other people, Just go back there and do what you need to do and stop acting like Rabid... To me this is more of stiring the pot and not, Being the smart one by just not saying anything....

I have no issues with you but as for Rogue, i'm not the only one who was treated unfairly over ther i was just the one who stood up and asked WHY? Please feel free to scree shot this if you need to as i wont deny/change anything posted!!!!

And please just let this all DIE as i'm tired of getting pulled back into it when i like it to be OVER!!!!!!!

[Mongoose]

Z-MAN I was a member of PBL from the start..had many posts and started a few threads.
then one day out of the blue i lost my rights to have a sig, avatar and more...
why?? well when i asked that question it was closed and deleted.
since you enjoy posting screen shots...please help me out and show me what i did wrong?

I also remember rogue starting crap here then linking it back to PBL "might wanna check up on that also"

And for the record Bigevilonline was around before PBL!

We all just got tired of the thread chopping and moving/deleting going on everytime something was said that rogue didnt agree with.


Good Luck with PBL ......soon you too will feel the darkside of rogue




P.S steelrat...you just cant let it go can ya???.....then when i say something you cry and beg me to remove it :rofl:

[Smoothice]

I do not want to hang around, and play with people whose highest ambition is to turn into an e-gang and jump from forum to forum being mad and looking for someone to gang up on. It's what children do, yell when they don't get their way and then go get a bunch of friends to come back and harass the person who wronged them.


I look forward to seeing you on the 12th.

If you are interested I will happily share my side of the story with you. I've only met you once and I found you to be a pretty cool guy. I hope that my feelings for rogue does not interfere with our possible friendship.

I wish you the best over at pbl. I only wonder what if you didn't have the power to shape that site the way you want?

Did you have the opportunity to be secretly moderated? Posts of yours magically made into new threads to suite rogues interests. I wonder if you would be singing a different tune?

Maybe if you had been there from the sites incarnation things would be a little differnt.

I enjoyed my time on pbl. I felt it had great potential.

I just hope you continue to see eye to eye with rogue (please don't read that as me saying you are buddy buddy or his love slave or anything like that). Because history has shown us he has a way to make enemies.


:cheers:

[Lohman446]

AO used to be greater than the sum of the Thorums, PBL, BE online, et al.

Unfortunately fracturing off has made several things that together do not add up to what they were trying to replace.

[Smoothice]

AO used to be greater than the sum of the Thorums, PBL, BE online, et al.

Unfortunately fracturing off has made several things that together do not add up to what they were trying to replace.

thank you for explaining that. :clap:

[Brewtt]

This is like a big soap opera! I don't know what's going on... how did I find this thread anyways? :confused:

Thank goodness for good ol' MCB. :cool:

[beam]

I like how all these fractured off forums come here, to AO, to play out the drama.

I have no idea what PBL is, or BigEvilOnline for that matter. I remember the Thorums and it would suprise me if those weren't still going.

But why is this all taking place here, on AO?

[punkncat]

I like how all these fractured off forums come here, to AO, to play out the drama.

I have no idea what PBL is, or BigEvilOnline for that matter. I remember the Thorums and it would suprise me if those weren't still going.

But why is this all taking place here, on AO?

It seems to be the common ground so to speak. As most of them fractured off from AO the users keep finding themselves coming back here and in contact with those that they left because of.

[SCpoloRicker]

http://invalid.ed.ntnu.no/~jostein/wfc/misc/76F98680-A0F6-445E-9A32-A555A356C5DA.jpg

[pmstc]

omginternetdramalol

[jenarelJAM]

Perhaps I haven't kept quite as close a watch as I should have, but I've been with AO since 04, with a few breaks to take care of things in my own life, and I've seen good times and bad on AO. But AO keeps holding together, and it's still a long ways away from deteriorating into someplace like pbn.


Skip to 2008
So I got extracted from WoW and besides the numbers changes I decided to make, I am all for getting back into paintball and all the fun I had. A quick check of AO found that it was not much better than when I left. So I start looking around for somewhere to find people that want to do what I want to do.

This PBL place seemed quite the happening place with a large number of the people I used to enjoy talking with and many new ones. So this this schism happens and I am faced with my 4 choices again:

1- Stay and try to help.
2- Stay and do nothing.
3- Stay and try to break it down.
4- Leave and go somewhere else.

Maybe I just never hung around the type of people that answered #3, but there seem to be a lot of them here.

I guess my main concern is that AO may be slowly dying, but threads like this one make it die faster. Are you complaining about what AO is turning out to be? Doesn't that fall under Category # 3 above?

Zack, you're a legend on these forums, and this thread I think will hurt AO more than most. Particularly because it is a well-reasoned argument proposed by a man of sound judgement. However, I urge you to stick around, even if it's not your primary forum anymore.

I've had other stuff going on a lot recently (college), and I spend a lot more time lurking and less time posting, but I haven't given up on this place yet.

[going_home]

I hope that my feelings for rogue does not interfere with our possible friendship.

Um....you might want to rephrase that ?
:wow:



Heres the skinny.
Pandoras has been opened and the woes cannot be put back in by anyone.
Only time can fix things and thats only if the pot is left alone and stopped being stirred
by all the "angels" on the forums.

:nono:

[maxama10]

thank you for explaining that. :clap:

Oops.Sorry Carry on :D

[Smoothice]

I'm kind of getting the feeling this is the exact kind of post he was talking about.

If I'm misinterpreting your sarcasm or his post than I'm sorry.

Well for the whole story:

lohman had posted something very similar yesterday in the above mentioned thread.

I did not understand it then.

I think he was just being nice enough to fully explain it for me this time.

My post that you quoted thanking him was exactly that. A thank you. I was not trying to be a smarty pants or a pot stirrir.

I hope that answers your question.

[michbich]

Speaking as an outside party that has no matter in what happenned. I actualy do think that this incident was a good thing. Everyone could feel the tension building up lately, it was just a matter of time for it to come out. It was even more civilized than what i was expecting.

[Steelrat]

P.S steelrat...you just cant let it go can ya???.....then when i say something you cry and beg me to remove it :rofl:

#1 I didn't mention you by name.

#2 I didn't cry

#3 I didn't beg

#4 Does it make you feel better to be insulting and rude? Little rolling laughter guy at the end make you feel clever? Oh snap, I totally pwned steelrat!

I'm pretty sure that almost everyone missed what Z-man was trying to get across.

[Ninjeff]

Just playing devils advocate here, but i wonder if anything might get "better" if the threads were allowed to continue until one or all parties involved in the conflict finally quit arguing. All closing posts do is keep that anger and frustration pent up. some one just make a thread, let the people duke it out and just let it ride. See what happens. to keep closing these kind of threads is just like playing whack-a-mole. Just have a thread where people can argue and argue and argue till they are blue in the face.

I have to say, when used properly, the fight club at PBL was a good idea.


------------------------------------------------------------------


That being said, im not sure if i agree with myself totally. Seems wierd i know, but it was just a thought i had.

[cyberave68]

That being said, im not sure if i agree with myself totally. Seems wierd i know, but it was just a thought i had.
Ok ninjeff i'm not sure anyone ever agrees with you...lol :rofl:
By the way all the parts are in and i'm sending them out tomorrow. PM me and i'll fill you in better....

Cy

[Lohman446]

Just playing devils advocate here, but i wonder if anything might get "better" if the threads were allowed to continue until one or all parties involved in the conflict finally quit arguing. All closing posts do is keep that anger and frustration pent up. some one just make a thread, let the people duke it out and just let it ride. See what happens. to keep closing these kind of threads is just like playing whack-a-mole. Just have a thread where people can argue and argue and argue till they are blue in the face.

I have to say, when used properly, the fight club at PBL was a good idea.


------------------------------------------------------------------


That being said, im not sure if i agree with myself totally. Seems wierd i know, but it was just a thought i had.

:) Hunt back through some of the threads that have dated for years. I'm going to give you two examples. How often did College Boy ever give up an argument? Star Trek dude (whatever his name was)? Rogue? Myself? Rabid? The fact of the matter is most of us, most of the time, feel our argument is logical and obvious, and it will just take a little more convincing for others to see it that way.

[Ninjeff]

Meh. Fair enough.

I was just tossing it out there.

[AirAssault]

Who cares? I don't dig over moderation and that tends to go on a bit to much here. Other than that, again, who cares? I visit pblegion, Mcarter, AO and dare I say PBN when Im looking to pick something up. They are forums, I use them for my purpose but don't live my life by them.

[Rudz]

Do you have a problem with me and the way I do things? You couldn't come to me and ask what the problem was, instead you decided to cry on the forums


I see where you stand


See you on the 12th, just make sure your on the opposite team

[Steelrat]

Do you have a problem with me and the way I do things? You couldn't come to me and ask what the problem was, instead you decided to cry on the forums


I see where you stand


See you on the 12th, just make sure your on the opposite team

All that, over a discussion? C'mon Rudz, I'm sure it wasn't a personal attack on you. Zak isn't crying about anything, he's just voicing an opinion on the whole issue.

I mean, I think you're acting like a tool, but I'll still smack you on the butt and buy you a beer. ;) Just go easy on us out-of-practice norcalers.

[d4m4don3]

Take it easy folks, I'm sure once we hit the field things will magically work its way out and we can get some closure out of all this drama. If everyone could just get together all at the same time I'm sure most of these arguments would go away with a round of some brew. I have my own reservations about actions people have done but :cuss: It's a forum guys it's not your life it's a place for everyone who likes the same things you guys do, other than that you need to get over it.

[Z-man]

OK so I have returned from work and see we have comments. I'll try to go down the list quickly but completely.
Punkncat

Zman, there was much more involved in my words that you seem to be so happy quoting. The out of context reference to it completely changes what I perceive as my intent by saying it, and about the point(s) that me and your "apparent" buddy argued about it.
I'm very glad to be wrong about that then. It certainly sounded like that from the thread and it's certainly something I see people do. I would be happy to remake the thread sections that use that to better reflect that but I think simply this acknowledgment is sufficient.

A lot of it will have to do with you and others (in similar position) there and your ability to be ambassadors to paintball. Not only that, but as you seem to be excersizing here, your ability to work a mop.
No freaking kidding.... this is going to be a HUGE handful to try and make into something. It has a good start but as you so accurately pointed out "your ability to work a mop." It is going to take work and time and I don't know what is going to happen. But I have nothing but my time to lose trying and as you find out, things don't fix themselves. Holy crap I mean I can see people who bit at Rogue but dang Rogue, you are one abrasive character... I'd be a fool to say that the biggest thing you have working against you is you bro. Even the people who hate you (for whatever reason) openly admit that you make ironclad parts... that's a compliment in the HIGHEST order if I may say so.
I think highly of Zman, and enjoy his well thought out posts.
The only point I disagreed with for the most part was that he took my comment out of context.
The fact that you typed that out in a calm and collected manner means more to me than the right or wrong. Being right is something we all want. The problem is that being able to remain calm, coherent, logical, and above all else maintain a certain level of respect (yes I am saying a level of respect reading FULL well what I wrote in my first 2 posts). You can just because the first guy posts like an angry child does not mean you have to do that.

Cyberdave68

Ok so you calling people who "argue with you over the net" E-THUGS. Hmm that sounds like what Rogue does all the time. But yet you call me out for doing the same thing on another forum??? I stated my case and droped it a while ago and have not said anything since on there. I did leave so whats the issue with me?I dont want to attract or repel anybody. Oh so I'm not allowed to give my opinion on another site? Its my opinion!!! People do it all the time. So because your Rogues new best friend you have his side of the story... Did you do your own research and contact me to see what happened before posting about me???? I think not but yet your flamming me over my opinion, which i belive i have that right, as do you....

Synopsis of Cyberdave's train of thought (as interpreted by Z-man)

1-Z-man equated cyberdave68 to E-Thug.
2-Cyberdave68 replies Rogue factor does this (maybe he thinks that the if someone does something wrong he should be able to also?)
3-Cyberdave68 states that Z-man thinks that he is not allowed to have an opinion on another site.
4-Cyberdave68 states Rogue is Z-man's new best friend.
5-Cyberdave68 states that Z-man did not do his own research and is flaming him because he has an opinion (which Z-man thinks he is not allowed to have.)
6-Cyberdave68 asks Z-man to not come over to AO to cry about (other people) pissing on.. other people.
7-Cyberdave68 states that Z-mans and rabidchihauhau are both acting the same.

How much of those statements the research that you did (that I did not do remember) and how much of that is what you decided? Is that true? Do I think you are not allowed an opinion, that Rogue is my new best friend, and that I came here to cry? Is it true? Or, is this how you reply to the above? To be fair you were NOT part of that closed thread. You were NOT part of it. Your profile customization was what stuck in my mind and it seemed a very good example so I used it. You could have typed what you now have in your quote section and left the Location "PBL SUCKS!!!!!" x1 and I would probably have been able to figure out what you were trying to say. Where do you see this?
http://www.zakvetter.com/images/linked_images/pbn_comm_standards.gif
smootgice

I look forward to seeing you on the 12th.If you are interested I will happily share my side of the story with you. I've only met you once and I found you to be a pretty cool guy. I hope that my feelings for rogue does not interfere with our possible friendship.I wish you the best over at pbl. I only wonder what if you didn't have the power to shape that site the way you want?...
Smoothice, This is one of the reasons I am so keen on coming down to this game on the 12th. I need to see you guys again and chat, hear what you have to say, why you feel how you do. At the end of the day, I am in California and I want to be able to go anywhere in the state and find people to organize to play. It tends to work better if there ARE people to play with. PMing you because it's grandstanding to clutter this thread with it here. Again, THE SIMPLE FACT that you were able to type out a composed, reply that offers solutions is like 100x more impressive than finding that I spelled a word wrong and replying "lern 2 speel"


AO used to be greater than the sum of the Thorums, PBL, BE online, et al. Unfortunately fracturing off has made several things that together do not add up to what they were trying to replace.

Correct. Who has seen Braveheart? Squabbling Scottish nobles anyone? Much happier to bicker over who should be king than try to go anywhere beyond their own gain...

omginternetdramalol
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jeneralJAM

I guess my main concern is that AO may be slowly dying, but threads like this one make it die faster. Are you complaining about what AO is turning out to be? Doesn't that fall under Category # 3 above? Zack, you're a legend on these forums, and this thread I think will hurt AO more than most. Particularly because it is a well-reasoned argument proposed by a man of sound judgement. However, I urge you to stick around, even if it's not your primary forum anymore. I've had other stuff going on a lot recently (college), and I spend a lot more time lurking and less time posting, but I haven't given up on this place yet.
It's a fine line and a good question. If you are unhappy about the way the forums are run and wish do try and make them better do you post about it? If you post about it is that complaining and fall into category #3? Can you point out problems, offer solutions or thoughts and have it not be considered #3? I think so and I would call it #1.

Is that what I typed out? No. This several things depending on how you look at it. People who agree with this might consider it a last call or warning to AO. People who don't like it will call it "crying about it" I believe is how it was put on page 1. Still others who don't know and don't care might find it a place to stave off boredom.

What I posted this for was to state where I stood on the matter. This will not be repeated here because it would serve no purpose other than to refresh it over and over. If you care and wonder who someone is or where they went you have the "find all posts" search and Google. As a matter of fact if there even IS more to say after this I might just move it off AO as it could drift too far off topic.

AO was.. what 4 years of good times, the best of times really. It's where I met most of the people I know and played with and it's where I organized everything I loved doing. Maybe I give up too easily or maybe I don't know the AO of 2008 as well as you, but I feel I have a better chance trying a new location. Dude, it would be freaking sweet if I was wrong and AO returned to the oasis of creativity and genuine interest in the hardware and betterment of the sport that I thought of it as. Then I would not have to try and remake it somewhere else and sift through all this. I'll post here when I think I have something to contribute, there is no good reason not to do so.

Who cares? I don't dig over moderation and that tends to go on a bit to much here. Other than that, again, who cares?
Is that one of those rhetorical questions or were you actually wondering over here on page 2 (assuming you read any of page 1) actually cared about this? I could list a few names if you still were wondering...
Rudz

Do you have a problem with me and the way I do things? You couldn't come to me and ask what the problem was, instead you decided to cry on the forums.I see where you stand. See you on the 12th, just make sure your on the opposite team
So I'm still trying to get you but I think this is another piece. Now that you have seen that I posted I don't like how you handled this issue you have decided it's time to be enemies. That's a shame... I'll be down the 12th, I'll be interested to see how you decide to interact (or not) with me and if you are going to stew over this. If that is what you want to do, I'll just try not to show up to events that you put together and I hope you would extend the same courtesy to me. I'm going down on the 12th to play paintball and see about who from SoCal is going to be the kind of people that will be fun to drive 200 miles off to see. What are you coming out for now?

Well I'm sure there will be more discussion from this stupidly long reply that I had to spell check like 9x and bet I still missed stuff, but I have a feeling what needed to be said was said and that is basically the end of that. Might have time to look it over in the morning or in the next 30 min for you fast late-night posters.

[Army]

I understand what Z-man is saying, and agree for the most part, but do we really need a thread that complains about other threads about complaining?

Sorry, but I'm closing this one before it too de-evolves too far into one of "those threads".