N20 Cartidges

[Geronimo7]

Any one know if these will work in place of CO2 cartidges

http://www.target.com/Liss-N2O-Chargers-50-Pack/dp/B0002PW6BO/ref=sc_ri_4/602-9675644-7119804

[punkncat]

No, but you will be able to do whippits with your marker....lol

waa waa waa

[Geronimo7]

Ha ha, ya I wasn't to sure thought i would ask here before i bought some. Do you know why ?

[michbich]

"Nitrous oxide (also known as laughing gas) is a chemical compound with the chemical formula N2O. At room temperature, it is a colorless non-flammable gas, with a pleasant, slightly sweet odor and taste. It is used in surgery and dentistry for its anesthetic and analgesic effects. It is commonly known as "laughing gas" due to the euphoric effects of inhaling it, a property that has led to its non-medical use as an inhalant drug. It is also used in motor racing as an oxidizer to increase the power output of engines."

ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N2o

I looked arround, i couldn't find the pressure of those 12grams.

Edit: they seem to be 8 grams

[Draken]

Well, after some really quick research, the 8 gram N2O carts are filled to 900 PSI...don't know what kind of drop off you would get though, or what kind of shot count, or even if they are long enough to fit in most 12gram markers...get some and let us know how they work.

[thejere]

More of an issue of shots per cartridge than anything else I'd imagine. CO2 twelve grams work well because CO2 is liquid at about room temp and 800 psi. Every gram of liquid gives you several grams of air at about 800 psi (these numbers aren't quite right because my thermo book isn't handy). N2O Is going to be all gas so you might get 2-3 shots assuming the cartridges are at 800 psi.

[Hilltop Customs]

More of an issue of shots per cartridge than anything else I'd imagine. CO2 twelve grams work well because CO2 is liquid at about room temp and 800 psi. Every gram of liquid gives you several grams of air at about 800 psi (these numbers aren't quite right because my thermo book isn't handy). N2O Is going to be all gas so you might get 2-3 shots assuming the cartridges are at 800 psi.

12grams of co2 liquid will still be 12grams of gas once it is allowed to boil off....its only the state thats changing nothing else.

n2o becomes liquid at 850psi @20degrees C so there could be liquid in there. But just like co2, when n2o goes from liquid to gas it will absorb energy(cool) and cause similar freezing problems as co2 does.

but you are right about shots per cartridge....12g of co2 is going to produce more gas at 800psi than 8g of n2o.

[craltal]

I don't know about where you live, but possession of more than a few of these cannisters could be a class 3 felony without the proper licensing, at least here in Florida...

(I read a news story about a woman arrested under that law in the paper this morning)

[Old School 626]

"Nitrous oxide (also known as laughing gas) is a chemical compound with the chemical formula N2O. At room temperature, it is a colorless non-flammable gas, with a pleasant, slightly sweet odor and taste. It is used in surgery and dentistry for its anesthetic and analgesic effects. It is commonly known as "laughing gas" due to the euphoric effects of inhaling it, a property that has led to its non-medical use as an inhalant drug. It is also used in motor racing as an oxidizer to increase the power output of engines."

ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N2o

I looked arround, i couldn't find the pressure of those 12grams.

Edit: they seem to be 8 grams

Euphoric effects.....I just want to be blissed out the next time I hear "SNAKE 1! SNAKE1!"

[michbich]

I don't know about where you live, but possession of more than a few of these cannisters could be a class 3 felony without the proper licensing, at least here in Florida...

(I read a news story about a woman arrested under that law in the paper this morning)

LOL, charged for whip cream.

It is an anesthetic none the less. Used improperly, it becomes a drug(blocks nervous system impulses from reaching the brain). Laughing gaz is explosive and if used in a large enough dose, can be lethal. But everything is lethal these days, even water.

What's my point...i don't know anymore, but i want some.

[cyrus-the-virus]

I don't know about where you live, but possession of more than a few of these cannisters could be a class 3 felony without the proper licensing, at least here in Florida...

(I read a news story about a woman arrested under that law in the paper this morning)

Maybe when you're carring hundreds or more. 50 shouldn't be a problem.

[vmaxnick]

Please don't
N20 supports combustion violently, it would be like using oxygen in your marker
any friction or even some oil in your ASA could cause combustion!
If you do it, post a video!

[cyrus-the-virus]

Please don't
N20 supports combustion violently, it would be like using oxygen in your marker
any friction or even some oil in your ASA could cause combustion!
If you do it, post a video!

Considering it's only pressured too 900 PSI(as someone else stated) wouldn't most marker(mags especially) be exploding constantly?

Just sayin.

[ThePixelGuru]

That's N2O, two nitrogen atoms and an oxygen atom. You're looking for N, which is pure nitrogen.

Even then, CO2 regulates itself by turning to liquid at roughly 800psi, and air/nitrogen doesn't. To get a useful charge, you'd have to pressurize these cartridges to 3000+ psi (think HPA), and then you'd have to put a regulator on the cartridges (hah!) or have your pistol/pump/whatever be able to handle 3000psi unregulated. Unless you're using a pumpmag, that won't be the case.

[Hilltop Customs]

Please don't
N20 is very flammable, it would be like using a mixture of oxygen and propane in your marker
any friction or even some oil in your ASA could cause combustion!
If you do it, post a video!

n2o, just like pure oxygen, are not flammable. It is an oxidizer, meaning that it will speed up a combustion reaction. Mixed with oil it increases the possability of an fire or explosion, but it would be very unlikely.

edit.....meant to say it would very unlikely in a maker. Now if you dumped oil down the asa, aired up with n2o and shot at an open flame(or had a bolt that fit extremely tight in the barrel).

[vmaxnick]

Considering it's only pressured too 900 PSI(as someone else stated) wouldn't most marker(mags especially) be exploding constantly?

Just sayin.

Even breathing air could explode if combustible material, heat and pressure are added in the right quantities, but 02 and n20 would explode eventually. (So I was told when I used to work in a hospital changing O2 and N20 cylinders the two mixed make entinox, given as pain relief)

[vmaxnick]

n2o, just like pure oxygen, are not flammable. It is an oxidizer, meaning that it will speed up a combustion reaction. Mixed with oil it increases the possability of an fire or explosion, but it would be very unlikely.

Interestingly, when changing Hpa N20 or O2 cylinders You must never use oil on the regulator threads only talc!

CO2, Argon and Nitrogen are all ok as the first is Virtually non-iinflamable and the later two are inert

Thus endeth all I ever learned about compressed gasses!

Incidentally there is a video on one of the painball forums of an HPA cylinder catching fire and going up like a rocket!!!

[vmaxnick]

That's N2O, two nitrogen atoms and an oxygen atom. You're looking for N, which is pure nitrogen.

Even then, CO2 regulates itself by turning to liquid at roughly 800psi, and air/nitrogen doesn't. To get a useful charge, you'd have to pressurize these cartridges to 3000+ psi (think HPA), and then you'd have to put a regulator on the cartridges (hah!) or have your pistol/pump/whatever be able to handle 3000psi unregulated. Unless you're using a pumpmag, that won't be the case.

Good point, even if it wasn't dangerous, it would be pointless!

[vmaxnick]

n2o, just like pure oxygen, are not flammable. It is an oxidizer, meaning that it will speed up a combustion reaction. Mixed with oil it increases the possability of an fire or explosion, but it would be very unlikely.

edit.....meant to say it would very unlikely in a maker. Now if you dumped oil down the asa, aired up with n2o and shot at an open flame(or had a bolt that fit extremely tight in the barrel).

I will try to find the video of the hpa cylinder going up in flames during a tournament and post it, the guys hands were burned up bad and he wasn't even smoking at the time!

Anyone else know for the video I'm on about??

[Hilltop Customs]

Interestingly, when changing Hpa N20 or O2 cylinders You must never use oil on the regulator threads only talc!

CO2, Argon and Nitrogen are all ok as the first is Virtually non-iinflamable and the later two are inert

Thus endeth all I ever learned about compressed gasses!

Incidentally there is a video on one of the painball forums of an HPA cylinder catching fire and going up like a rocket!!!

see my edit....meant to say in the marker.

oil and compressed gasses containing oxygen(even if in mixture or in compound) definetly dont mix.




I just remembered, before any of my friends had air tanks, one of them took the n2o tank off his mustang and used it with his maker till it was empty....not the safest thing. But when he fired it produced the "barrel smoke" worse than anyone that was using co2.

[Hilltop Customs]

I will try to find the video of the hpa cylinder going up in flames during a tournament and post it, the guys hands were burned up bad and he wasn't even smoking at the time!

Anyone else know for the video I'm on about??

I know exactly what your talking about, I havent seen the video though. There were a few of these accidents in the past few years.

What happens is something flamable gets in the tank(most likely oil) and as the tank gets filled....the extreme pressure combined with the heat generated from filling cause it to detonate just like a diesel engine. The pressure generated from the detonation is far to fast for burst disks to do any good and(what normally happens) the reg blows off, or blows to pieces.

[vmaxnick]

If anyones interested
I have converted all my mates to Argoshield (Inert welding gas) for markers.
We fill up our bottles until the bulk tanks drop to 2500psi, then we use the 2500psi bottle as a first stage fill tank and top up off a new 3200psi bottle. when the first stage bottle drops to about 2000psi, we stick it back on the mig and weld till it's empty.

Argon's expensive, but because we use it all up, it works out not much dearer than HPA!

Argon bottles use a din bottle fitting


ARGHHH! Almost forgot to add; instead of HPA NOT CO2 don't fill up your CO2 bottles with Argoshield, it is not a liquid delivery gas!!!!!

[craltal]

Just dug out the paper and it states:

"the possession of more than 16 grams of Nitrous oxide by an unlicensed party is a third degree felony"

the story can be found here:
http://brandonnews2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/19/drug-distribution-charge-added-womans-dui-woes/

(Yes, I know she had 106 cylinders, but by the statute more than 2 is enough to constitute a felony)

Just sayin...

[michbich]

Sorry about saying it was explosive. My mistake.

[vmaxnick]

Sorry about saying it was explosive. My mistake.
Don't apologize, when your face is blown off by a welding oxygen cylinder which has caught fire, started to vent flame and reached flash point (My dad saw it happen once which is why my welding bottles all have double spark arrestors fitted) you wouldn't split hairs between supports combustion and explosive!

[Hilltop Customs]

dont worry bout it dude.....its a really common mistake. Just cause it isnt explosive doesnt make it completely safe....any gas that displaces oxygen can easily kill. co2 could be deadly in the right situation.

[vmaxnick]

dont worry bout it dude.....its a really common mistake. Just cause it isnt explosive doesnt make it completely safe....any gas that displaces oxygen can easily kill. co2 could be deadly in the right situation.
Too right, point in question; Halon gas fire extinguishers killed more people by asphyxiation than fire!

[vmaxnick]

I think we've kind of wandered off topic? :dance:

[drg]

Don't use those ... they have much better uses lol

[Hilltop Customs]

I think we've kind of wandered off topic? :dance:

maybe....but I do like your argon idea, too bad it would be a pita for field use. Both n2 or argon would be much much safer to use than compressed air ;)

drg lol....just dont drive around and act stupid like the lady in the link posted earlier :eek:

[DevilMan]

I'm sorry but the whole whippit comment at the top puts too many mental images in my head....

I wanna see someone at party run out of the cartridges to pressurize the whip cream can thing and see someone come in with a 30BPS marker and churn the snot out of it by sticking the barrel in the tub and lettin it rip!!!! hehehehehehehee I know I know... easily amused.

DM

[thejere]

12grams of co2 liquid will still be 12grams of gas once it is allowed to boil off....its only the state thats changing nothing else.

True, but misleading. Every marker regulates volumetric flow, not mass flow. A little liquid through the reg will cause a high shot because 1 gram of liquid can do a heck of a lot more than 1 gram of gas.

[michbich]

True, but misleading. Every marker regulates volumetric flow, not mass flow. A little liquid through the reg will cause a high shot because 1 gram of liquid can do a heck of a lot more than 1 gram of gas.

In my mind, i would have said: a mL of liquid can do a heck of a lot more than 1 mL of gas. If they have the same weight like you stated, they have the same amount of moles witch should give the same amount of pressure given the temperature doesn't change. Is my logic flawed somewhere? I agree that a liquid with the same amount of volume as a gas will produce more free energy because of the augmentation of entropy caused by changing states.

[Hilltop Customs]

My initial post was just stating 1g of liquid co2 when turned into a gas is still 1 gram of gaseous co2. I missintrepreted your first post thejere. I was thinking that you were just talking about co2. But you were trying to compare liquid co2 to plain old compressed air?
But since you used g's for the air it screwed my thinking all up.


michbich I think thejere is trying to say the liquid co2 keeps a constant gas pressure of around 800psi until there is no liquid left. If liquid sneeks past a reg(below 800psi) the lower pressure will allow more to boil off until it reaches 800psi or no liquid is left. I think he/she just mixed up mass and volume at the end of his/her last post since at the begining it seems that he/she was going to use volumes, but then used g's :confused:


IDK about volumetric flow or mass flow....Im just assumed a reg worked by balancing the force on 2 sides of a seal....a spring on one side and the regulated pressure on the other. As the pressure on the regulated side increases, the spring compresses, shutting off the flow to the regulated output. I suppose the flow could add an extra force onto the closing of the seal, but the reg is adjusted by spring tension, so really its negligable. The regs that we use dont regulate flows, just pressures(they do regulate flows in a sense, but are not adjustable in that way)

any way if its cold enough or the liquid is forced through the system faster than it can become a gas, the liquid would evaporte off on the regulated side. Causing the regulated pressure to increase past what it was supposed to.

blah blah blah....had more then deleted it, oh well other work to do.

[rabidchihauhau]

glad I left Florida. You can walk into almost any general supply store in the NE and buy a box of 12 8 grams...

37.5 cents per 8 gram.

You can get a balloon inflater/charger for a few bucks more.

How the heck do bars in florida charge their whipped cream dispensers?

Back to paintball; you can make a nifty little booby trap with one of the chargers, liquid paint and a balloon. I made one back in the late 80s and we called it the 'James Bomb'...