Why 18v in the Emag?

[mrhooie]

watching the emag video tonight, we were wondering why an 18V battery in the emag?

What is it regulated down to?

Just wondering why, to see if something else could be used at sometime as a battery (to make the front pack a different size)

thanks

[BlueMagRT]

it is 18v because as the great Tom Kaye put it: 9v's suck.

the e-mag has a large battery to power a larger solenoid. this reduces heating of the solenoid which gives better performace, more shots percharge, and easier pull. It is also a more reliable option. i believe tom said you could shoot the e-mag at full auto and not over heat the solenoid until the battery is almost dead.

[mrhooie]

Ok, my next question would then be, what does the Solenoid tun at? The 18v is obviously regulated down to a smaller voltage.

Now - was the original emag the same one that I can buy now (as far as internals?)

[Shaft]

In the same tradition of 42v systems in automotive applications (yet to be realized).
18v was chosen for lower current. Ohm's law fun.

[mrhooie]

Shaft - I kinda figured your post was in jest, but if it wasn't, I realize that the 18v isn't being used at 18v. WHy? because you'd never get 20,000 shots on one charge if the solenoid was 18v (or even 12v for that matter) :D

[Butterfingers]

Cause when battaries are used they drop in voltage.

The E-mag actually needs all that juice. I belive it ceases to function at about 14volts.

[AGD]

There were several reasons to go with 18v. First and foremost was reliablility. The more current you put through a solenoid the more it heats up. The more it heats the less it pulls. If it gets too hot it stops firing the marker. A marker that doesn't shoot because "you shot it too much" is completely unacceptable. We wanted a design that could shoot ALL the time without problems.

We might have been able to use 12v but then you couldn't step up the voltage to run your rev. We forsee the time when the whole marker is run off one battery. It really doesn't make sense to have different batteries all over the product. Do you see anything else with multiple sets of batteries? Wouldn't it be stupid to by a tape deck for your car that needed batteries?

18v gives the right flexibilty to run anything in the foreseable future. You can always regulate down, it is very expensive to boost voltage up.

Just thinking ahead for your benefit,

AGD

[Dubstar112]

AGD always plans ahead, kinda like them extra holes in the old rt.. ;)

[mrhooie]

Thanks Tom - we were just curious as to why?, but that helps...

So what does the solenoid run at? I was curious..why? For my own reasons (like getting the size of the battery pack down)

Just some thoughts...But I really like the idea of getting the whole marker and 'gadgets' to run off the battery.

(where are you going to fit the alternator :D)

[mrhooie]

Ah ----------the only thing I forgot

Were you wanting to put a larger capacity rechargable battery pack in it originally?


Originally posted by AGD -
The more current you put through a solenoid the more it heats up. The more it heats the less it pulls. If it gets too hot it stops firing the marker

[momags!]

Tom......I'd be more than happy to sell you my design for single battery utilization!:D
It comes with all the gadgets like a variable resistor and single power switch for the entire system! And it all fits in the warp battery compartment. Tried and true. Give your engineers a break....I need the money! :)

[momags!]

Actually, I would be thrilled with just an endorsement from AGD! Want a free unit to look over and try?!

[Shaft]

Originally posted by mrhooie
Shaft - I kinda figured your post was in jest, but if it wasn't, I realize that the 18v isn't being used at 18v. WHy? because you'd never get 20,000 shots on one charge if the solenoid was 18v (or even 12v for that matter) :D

Um... no, I was serious.
Out of curiosity, explain your theory.

[mrhooie]

Well, with Tom saying the 18v was chosen so that other items could be run off one battery - well that explains it with there.

You have an 18v battery that supplies x current.

If you regulate the current down to a device that uses less, the battery lasts longer (ie. 20,000shots off one charge)

easy as that.

[Shaft]

Oh. Regulators don't typically work in a way to conserve power. In fact, they use some. Switching regs and some LDO's can be quite efficient though.

Now supplying 18v straight to a load doesn't necessarily mean that the load will consume all the current in one zap (or two, three etc.). It will depend on what the load is and how much the battery can supply.

Now if you want to regulate current, you don't have to regulate the voltage. Just control the load.

Using higher voltage will allow lower current. Which was one of Tom's points about 18v and mine about 42v systems. The current causes heat requires bigger conductors - etc. Jack up the voltage, lower the current and you can maintain a large resistive load without creating a lot of heat.

[mrhooie]

I understand what you are saying Shaft
The reason I posted this was to try and find out what the emag run off of (obviously it doesn't need 18v to function)

As for the 42v car system....downside - big battery bank - even big/higher out put alternator..neet idea - can't see it working though :D

[Shaft]

Some of my time at work is being spent on 42v systems.
It's overdue though. Good thing that not all my time is devoted to the change.

[mrhooie]

What do you do Shaft?
In the winter I'm a salesman at an electronics store (tv's stereoes, and electronics)

In the summer (and I guess all the time) I own a paintball pro-shop (AGD Dealership pending :D)

mrhooie

[AGD]

ps yes the solenoid does run at 18v right off the battery.

AGD

[Shaft]

Originally posted by mrhooie
What do you do Shaft?

I'm an electrical engineer for an automotive OEM.

[p8ntbal4me]

Sorry bout bringing this post back,. but its missing a question I wanted to put to the AO for those of you that own and run E-Mags.

AGD says that 18 volts runs directly to the battery.

I put a meter on the 2 solder connections on teh boards that go to the solenoid and pulled the trigger.

Every 3rd shot was about 3volts,.. every shot in between that 3volt reading was .15-.30

Can anyone explain this?? I want to hack up the gun and do some serious re-work to the board and re-design it,.. but if Tom says 18 volts but its reading something else,.. I wanted to be sure. <---- yes,.. I know Tom = God,.. and yes, I go to church every weekend to shoot my God-like E-Mag!

Anyone from AGD techs input would be helpful too! :cheers:

[ta2maki]

Sorry bout bringing this post back,. but its missing a question I wanted to put to the AO for those of you that own and run E-Mags.

AGD says that 18 volts runs directly to the battery.

I put a meter on the 2 solder connections on teh boards that go to the solenoid and pulled the trigger.

Every 3rd shot was about 3volts,.. every shot in between that 3volt reading was .15-.30

Can anyone explain this?? I want to hack up the gun and do some serious re-work to the board and re-design it,.. but if Tom says 18 volts but its reading something else,.. I wanted to be sure. <---- yes,.. I know Tom = God,.. and yes, I go to church every weekend to shoot my God-like E-Mag!

Anyone from AGD techs input would be helpful too! :cheers:

I'm guessing you are using a digital meter. Digital meters will not react fast enough to show the voltage showing at the terminals. Analog meters will do a better job but the dwell is still too short to let the needle deflect all the way. If your meter has it, use the peak hold function.

[p8ntbal4me]

Okay,.. that answers the first and most important question,.. thank you!

Second question is why is the solenoid directly wired to the board but then there is a port for the solenoid do be plugged into? Im guessing an easy, if-I-rip-my-wires-off-my-board-and-buy-a-new-noid-I-can-plug-the-new-one-back-in solution?

[athomas]

Okay,.. that answers the first and most important question,.. thank you!

Second question is why is the solenoid directly wired to the board but then there is a port for the solenoid do be plugged into? Im guessing an easy, if-I-rip-my-wires-off-my-board-and-buy-a-new-noid-I-can-plug-the-new-one-back-in solution?This port can be used to run other devices that are activated when the gun is fired.

[p8ntbal4me]

I figured teh emag solenoid could run off a 9volt,... any guesses to how long it would work off one???

[athomas]

I figured teh emag solenoid could run off a 9volt,... any guesses to how long it would work off one???It wouldn't work at all. 9v isn't enough voltage to activate the solenoid.

[p8ntbal4me]

It wouldn't work at all. 9v isn't enough voltage to activate the solenoid.


Let me tell you what I did and how im getting results.

I removed the old stock emag board and installed a new aftermarket board running off a 9volt.

My emag solenoid is not getting 18volts,.. I cant accuratly tell u what its getting but lets say it is infact getting 9volts.

My solenoid actuates with alot of force,... not as much as 18volts would make it move,... but if you want to compare it to something,.. the force of a hyperframe pancake solenoid is about the same feeling. I dont have air other wise I would shoot the thing,.. but its way more than a ULT would require to activate.

When you said it would not work,.. did u mean that the board and the solenoid, the solenoid alone,..?? Just trying to get all my wires and voltage issues down so I can get moving along into some testing phases.

[athomas]

The solenoid only has half the design current going through the coil when 9v is used instead of 18v. That means the solenoid only has 1/4 of the power. Using the stock on-off, the solenoid won't have enough power to push it closed. It would probably work with the ULT. The ULT has another problem in that it doesn't have enough return force to move the sear and solenoid plunger properly.

[RobAGD]

It may go clicky clicky without air, but you will find that the noid really wants voltage.

If it would have worked off 9v's it would have been done a long time ago.

-Robert

[p8ntbal4me]

It may go clicky clicky without air, but you will find that the noid really wants voltage.

If it would have worked off 9v's it would have been done a long time ago.

-Robert

Okay,.. tesed out everything you guys have been offering for advice,... confirming as I go.

Looking at the board that comes with the emag,.. Im going to assume that it uses some type of relay to switch the (+) to the solenoid? If thats the case,.. what type of relay does it use? Numbers on my board are kind of hard to read,.....

Does the board use all 18volts or does it regulate it down for the components but keep the solenoid with a true 18VDC?

[RobAGD]

Okay,.. tesed out everything you guys have been offering for advice,... confirming as I go.

Looking at the board that comes with the emag,.. Im going to assume that it uses some type of relay to switch the (+) to the solenoid? If thats the case,.. what type of relay does it use? Numbers on my board are kind of hard to read,.....

Does the board use all 18volts or does it regulate it down for the components but keep the solenoid with a true 18VDC?


Top of the board, there are 2 flat black ( brain fart here ) transistors is teh best my brain will come up with right now. 18v kicks to the when it gets a switch sig it flips 18v to the noid. There is a 5v reg on there someplace as well or the switch and other componets. Probe a bit with your multimeter and you will get it.

I am sure some where in teh tech section are pictures for testing the mosfets on teh board because they would every now and then burn out.

-R

[athomas]

The board runs at 5v which is regulated down from the 18v supplied. The 18v supply is directly fed to the solenoid through the output transistor switches. I think they are active low, which means 18v is supplied directly to the solenoid and the transistor pulls the other side of the transistor to ground to allow current to flow.

[p8ntbal4me]

Okay,.. that will get me started.

Im looking in the tech sections now,.. might head over to Doc's site as well for some info.

I figured the board must be regulated down,.. I was thinking the orange little piece near the LED was the regulator for the board.

If anyone knows the type of relays and where to get them it would speed things up. But thanks athomas and Rob for the start. Its much easier to work on this whe people say "this is how it does that" type of answers.

Much appreciated! :hail:

[don miguel]

it is 18v because as the great Tom Kaye put it: 9v's suck.

the e-mag has a large battery to power a larger solenoid. this reduces heating of the solenoid which gives better performace, more shots percharge, and easier pull. It is also a more reliable option. i believe tom said you could shoot the e-mag at full auto and not over heat the solenoid until the battery is almost dead.
absolutely.

[p8ntbal4me]

Found the part if anyone wants to know what it is,.... :)

Fairchild Semiconductors NDT451AN (SOT-223)

Fairchild Part #: NDT451AN
Mouser Part #: 512-NDT451AN (http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=NDT451ANvirtualkey51210000vir tualkey512-NDT451AN)

Connects to the solenoid GND. POS lead runs direct to the solenoid