Autococker KO'd by AGD !

[going_home]

Looks like JT/WGP is dumping their inventory of Autocockers and discontinuing them.
Now who was it that said they thought AGD was out of business ? :rofl:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=46230676#post46230676

I know its a PBN link but Jeff Orr has posted and confirmed it.

The Autococker is dead people.

But the Automag lives on !


:shooting:

[tech-chan]

We Win!!!!

[Warwitch]

To be fair, its not like AGD is cranking out anything new. And I dont see anyone looking to buy them out either......:rolleyes:

[going_home]

To be fair, its not like AGD is cranking out anything new. And I dont see anyone looking to buy them out either......:rolleyes:

I am keeping it real.
The whole point is cocker enthusiasts have been saying for years that AGD went out of business.
Well they are still producing and selling them.
But Autocockers are done. Finished. Stick a fork in it.
That was the point. Other than that....well its never a good thing to see that happen actually.
ICD gone. Autococker gone.

Its a good thing that AGD is still going under the radar of the "buy em and shut em down" conglomerates.

;)

By the way, you coming to the pump meet next saturday ?

[LK-13]

i wonder if the fact the Autococker is built on a design stolen from Glenn Palmer had anything to do with the decission to shut down the AC?

i know the big name that bought WGP wasn't happy when they found out about the stolen design.

[Spider-TW]

What do you think this will mean to the remaining marker prices? Will any of the "dumped" markers be worth picking up? Or will the die-hard cocker fans be enough to soak up the excess?

I've never owned a cocker. By the time I started considering getting one just for entertainment, they came out with all the cheapy models and I've been trying to sort them out (value wise) ever since. A couple of team mates play with ebladed cockers all the time, but we have had a couple people give up on what seemed to be nice cockers with reliability problems.

Is there a model, mech or electro, that will be sustainable without factory parts and available at a good price in this fall-out? I love classic markers that work and can be rebuilt.

[mobsterboy]

To be fair, its not like AGD is cranking out anything new. And I dont see anyone looking to buy them out either......:rolleyes:

To be fair Nothings changed but milling on the Cockers for a long time. We're on level playing fields as far as being fair and newness. AGD just kept it simple and let others come out with aftermarket stuff. I'm not dancing on the grave, I'm just saying Cockers had to fold. Plain and simple. There's a better niche and a more dedicated owners group for Mags... And they are less trouble.

[Chrishew09]

This whole industry makes me laugh.... :p

[Steelrat]

Why the hell would we celebrate such a storied pb company dumping a such an iconic brand? Am I the only person who doesn't want a paintball world made up only of Ions, Egos, and DMs?

[Dark Side]

Why the hell would we celebrate such a storied pb company dumping a such an iconic brand?

So people can sell Autococker parts/markers at outlandish prices.


Am I the only person who doesn't want a paintball world made up only of Ions, Egos, and DMs?

Nope.

[mobsterboy]

Why the hell would we celebrate such a storied pb company dumping a such an iconic brand? Am I the only person who doesn't want a paintball world made up only of Ions, Egos, and DMs?

I'm with ya

[sdawg]

Shockers, Egos, and PM/DM.

It seems like that's just tourney players. When I go to the local field, I see all sorts of markers. I'm usually the only guy with a mag.

[Toll]

Unfortunately thats kind of how it goes. People aren't terribly educated in general but I've heard plenty of reasons why some one would choose a stock ion over a tricked out e-cocker.


-Cockers are hard to maintain (Arguable...If it were mech..~.~)
-Too heavy
-The backblock hits my mask (Don't stick your damn mask in the backblock)
-Double feeds
-Too tall.
-Not effecient
-Trips a seer (lulz)
-Cockers have no range (I have stopped fighting it. I am going to let the guy believe it because I can't just punch him)
-Chop alot


Its just...so...painful. I think alot of people who bought cockers are the same ones who buy mags...they aren't the mainstream (the Sr is neat looking...I'll give it that) and without the purchasing power behind it, things start the downward spiral

[AGD]

WOW!! I wonder how Bud feels....

And another historic icon of the paintball world passes into the night. It is especially ironic that the cocker disappeared before the mag. So I have to bring up some statements made a couple years back.

When all the legal and other stuff was going down, the subject of paintballs future came up. Many on this forum believed that it wouldn't matter, paintball would go on with new manufacturers/designs taking the place of the old. They talked about it as if "thats the way it has always been". So I ask you now in the shadow of the cocker and Indian Creek, do you still feel that way?

The one and now only,

AGD

[Steelrat]

I'd say the declining sales speak volumes about the future.

[LK-13]

WOW!! I wonder how Bud feels....

And another historic icon of the paintball world passes into the night. It is especially ironic that the cocker disappeared before the mag. So I have to bring up some statements made a couple years back.

When all the legal and other stuff was going down, the subject of paintballs future came up. Many on this forum believed that it wouldn't matter, paintball would go on with new manufacturers/designs taking the place of the old. They talked about it as if "thats the way it has always been". So I ask you now in the shadow of the cocker and Indian Creek, do you still feel that way?

The one and now only,

AGD

Tom,
don't forget that Glenn and Craig are still standing right there with you.
BTW,
have you heard about my Mag based projects?
building 13 guns, all MAG based, most wood stocked, at least 2 double barreled.
(or would that be 4? uh... 2x2 maybe?)
you guys are going to plotz when you see these!
just wish i had a better place to work in...
oh well all in good time i guess.

[BigEvil]

Paintball is nothing more than a fashion show when it comes to new equipment. Cockers arent cool anymore. Period.

JT bought WGP thinking that they had a cornerstone to build one, when in fact it was already starting to show signs of decline.

It didn't help them that they turned them into crap, thats for sure.


:cry:

[drg]

If you think AGD had anything to do with this, you are an idiot.

[Geronimo7]

^ :eek:

seriously though, does this mean "autococker threading" becomes "agd threading" :p

[Ninjeff]

^ :eek:

seriously though, does this mean "autococker threading" becomes "agd threading" :p
:rofl:

[Dewok82]

Goodnight, sweet prince. :(

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e19/dewok82/ByeBye.jpg

[pump]

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e19/dewok82/ByeBye.jpg
oh ill take that gun!


oh the mag cocker wars.........when paintball had to much mystery

to know then what i know now

[PanzerGen]

In terms of the old mag/cocker wars, yeah this was a "victory." Something called a pyrrhic victory. So now the cocker is gone and automags/palmers are only a niche guns.... yeah. It is kind of ironic that the cocker went first though considering all the nasty retoric about mags from the more "mainstream" groups.

[KevinA]

This makes me sad, as I enjoy both mags, and cockers equally. :(

[drg]

In terms of the old mag/cocker wars, yeah this was a "victory." Something called a pyrrhic victory. So now the cocker is gone and automags/palmers are only a niche guns.... yeah. It is kind of ironic that the cocker went first though considering all the nasty retoric about mags from the more "mainstream" groups.

Rhetoric shmetoric. This has nothing to do with the relative merits of the products, and everything to do with business models of the companies producing them.

[pump]

Rhetoric shmetoric. This has nothing to do with the relative merits of the products, and everything to do with business models of the companies producing them.
just to think if all the innovations that the mags and cockers late in its life were available during their hight of popularity.......electro would not of been adopted as widely

[Maghog]

In all of the chapters and twisted tales that have come about over the last few years, this is truly one of the most stunning. Just seeing it end like this after nearly twenty years is something I'd have never imagined.

Remember when the only choice was either the cocker or the mag?
Everything else was inferior.
When the angel arrived, things changed.
The cocker stayed mechanical while the AGD went for the electronic market.
The E-mag was judged by its looks and not by its performance, leaving it widely untouched and undiscovered.
WGP marketed fiercely, and it seemed to really pay off...suddenly the cocker was more popular than ever and the mag fell by the wayside despite some really innovative new products and upgrades.
Litigation and consolidation forced the two companies along very different paths that lead to where we are now.
The cocker's popularity seems to have been what did it in now. After going from the mighty orracle series to the lowly trilogy collection, combined with a flooded market, WGP tanked. Now the cocker is being discontinued? Wow!
AGD's strategy of pulling back and focusing on its roots is proving to be more and more brilliant all the time. I think we're going to see more companies fold as time goes on, and I can only hope that AGD has the necessary resources to tough it out, because in the end, they're going to remain the one high quality piece of equipment that is available.
Thankfully, there are enough cockers out there that the mag-cocker war will never really have to end. I wouldn't even say that the mag has "won" by any means, but it feels really good to see them still standing after all that paintball has gone through.
AGD FOREVER!
Dan@Triggernomics

[Freebird]

personnaly... im not a fan of cockers but..

Ive met bud he's a friend of the local field owners. It kinda sucks to see another one of the "oldschool" guys loose out to the communist giants that are now modern paintball. The mag/cocker wars? Yes they were battles but what is a battle with no competition. The strive that mag owners took to beat out cocker owners, and cocker owners to beat out mags just drove companies to produce more products for each brand. Competition is good for business. Now im not saying "monopoly" type competition like lets safely say smart parts. But the old mag vs. cocker war was very good for the industry. It hasen't been the same in the past few years but we can all sit back and think, Wow remember when the emag came out...... then remember when the First electro cocker came out and so on and so forth.


just my .02

kinda makes me sad to see that the tree of paintball is slowly leaving the roots that made it grow tall.


^that kinda sounded like a statement somone on drugs would say.... im not i swear...

[insixdays777]

I am just not a cocker guy. 12 years playing...I have owned many. Just not for me.

However this is very sad day. Another founder of this great sport is dead. RIP.

[KevinA]

Why the hell would we celebrate such a storied pb company dumping a such an iconic brand? Am I the only person who doesn't want a paintball world made up only of Ions, Egos, and DMs?
..

[questionful]

I don't know what to say. It definitely makes one think. Did AGD know long ago something like this might happen? What is their plan for the future? Will they keep making the trusty ol' Mag that has kept them afloat for so long? Will it work?

[angrysasquatch]

It kinda sucks to see another one of the "oldschool" guys loose out to the communist giants that are now modern paintball.

How is modern paintball at all like communism? They don't exactly take the grand sum of what's available and split it up evenly, now do they?

And actually, i thought the root thing was pretty good. I thought you borrowed it from someone else, that good :)

I wonder what Palmer's feeling are on this..

[going_home]

WOW!! I wonder how Bud feels....

And another historic icon of the paintball world passes into the night. It is especially ironic that the cocker disappeared before the mag. So I have to bring up some statements made a couple years back.

When all the legal and other stuff was going down, the subject of paintballs future came up. Many on this forum believed that it wouldn't matter, paintball would go on with new manufacturers/designs taking the place of the old. They talked about it as if "thats the way it has always been". So I ask you now in the shadow of the cocker and Indian Creek, do you still feel that way?

The one and now only,

AGD


Well I wasnt one of the ones that said things like that.
Honestly I have never been a cocker fan, they are too finicky, have too many moving parts... and I cant seem to tech them to save my life. (but I am a fan of the older ICD markers, Alley Cat, Thunder Cat etc.)
Having said that you cant have my Series 6.
But I dont need to do anything to the S6, and theres really nothing I can do to it to mess it up either.

But its never a good thing for the sport of paintball when something like this happens.
I did have to gloat over the cocker enthusiasts that like to post how AGD is out of business,
but only for a second. In reality its not a good thing at all.

My opinion is PPS will pick up some of the slack, and so will CCM.
And maybe we will see some new blood in paintball with some new sniper offerings.
Although CCM is always working on the next "gotta have neato" pump.
So although its not the end of the world, its not helpful that it happened.

:(

[kenndogg]

Remember when WGP was first bought out a few years back and soon after forced aftermarket companies to stop producing "autococker" parts? I really believe that really hurt cockers.
That and the trilogy cockers

[drg]

How is modern paintball at all like communism? They don't exactly take the grand sum of what's available and split it up evenly, now do they?

And actually, i thought the root thing was pretty good. I thought you borrowed it from someone else, that good :)

I wonder what Palmer's feeling are on this..

Indeed there is nothing communist about this. This is classic capitalism at work.

[zipity_Bop]

I just sold my mag off for a cocker.

I'm actually a little happy this happened, Now just like the mag there will be a niche community. Where all "most" of the owners are respectful knowledgeable and helpful, lets not forget a bit more mature than the rest of the herd. and when you look at it WGP tried to convert to the norm nowadays but couldn't cut it. And when AGD dropped in there production and popularity there prices went up. the ccocker market has been down for awhile and hopefully soon it'll pick back up, and we'll have knowledgeable owners producing the parts we actually want instead of WGP marketing to the rest of the paintball public. (example) the MG7 the quote on their site pretty much sums up what the market's come down to "blazing speed at an affordable price".



It still sucks to see such a great company go down like that.

[drg]

I guess now is as good a time as any to point out that what has been reported is quite vague ... What exactly is being sold? What exactly is happening to the current lines of WGP cocker/sniper guns?

[Draken]

Remember when WGP was first bought out a few years back and soon after forced aftermarket companies to stop producing "autococker" parts? I really believe that really hurt cockers.
That and the trilogy cockers

I honestly believe this is where the downfall REALLY started...Now I don't know if they are doing this because its cheaper to sell off stock then move it (and most of the time it is) and then start new after the move, or if they are just going to join the JT/WGP brands in some super ugly marker. I think they have left details out to keep people guessing. I know I would like to see them come out with some new really nice mechs to go along with the newer Jeff Orr series and Karni series, also some new pumps and a couple electros...and maybe a couple lower priced "things" just to help keep the doors open. We won't know what this means until the move/consolidation is done.

[BigEvil]

Remember when WGP was first bought out a few years back and soon after forced aftermarket companies to stop producing "autococker" parts? I really believe that really hurt cockers.
That and the trilogy cockers


Exactly correct. There were so many cockers out there that companies had a ready-made market to sell parts and goodies to. Those companies also pushed the autococker, and thus their products. Eliminating others from producing 'cool' after market products all but removed the cocker from the main stream.

[KevinA]

I honestly believe this is where the downfall REALLY started...Now I don't know if they are doing this because its cheaper to sell off stock then move it (and most of the time it is) and then start new after the move, or if they are just going to join the JT/WGP brands in some super ugly marker. I think they have left details out to keep people guessing. I know I would like to see them come out with some new really nice mechs to go along with the newer Jeff Orr series and Karni series, also some new pumps and a couple electros...and maybe a couple lower priced "things" just to help keep the doors open. We won't know what this means until the move/consolidation is done.
Second! :cheers:

[Spider-TW]

I don't know the full story behind the autococker design, but I always figured it was a natural outgrowth of Palmer's KP2 mods around '89. As such, I never saw it having any truly unique value in the factory models, especially along the lines of the automag valve. Custom autocockers are works of art, but off the shelf, the Karnivor was as interesting as it ever became. I wonder why WGP never integrated the whole front block and made it their own, something like PTP's integrated pneumatic trigger/actuator. Maybe SP or others cut them off and blocked the development. Without some core value in truly unique design ownership, a company has to live on marketing. You hate to see any quality marker maker go down, but they never seemed to have a 'niche' market, just a loyal following.

Anyway, what's the deal with the ANS X5 series? Is ANS still making those? Not much meat for custom milling, but as mini/midget/half blocks, they would be tiny.

[B-Pow]

Well I hope palmers continues to make cocker parts, I have a project on my table of "old school cool" of tricking out a 04 prostock with /mostly/ palmers parts and making a mech cocker that well...sings. Then get it re-annoed in splash or acid wash and definately leave the back block the way it is.

lets see I still need an....everything...but a body, rods, hpr (maybe), and a frame (maybe)

d'oh

It is sad to see them go, even if their quality has been lacking in recent years. The history of this game/hobby is being quickly left behind, and forgoten by the new generation of players.

Sometimes I feel like I'm missed the golden age of paintball (I've only been playing for 2-3 years) I've heard the stories and wished I could have been there. But at least I have the stories (I am good friends with Tyger, I was before I started playing so I get his reserve of stories and I have a good idea of what I missed).

Why does this (still, ongoing) changing of the gaurd feel like a death sentance, or at least an extended stay in purgitory.

[TnDeathInc]

I don't know the full story behind the autococker design, but I always figured it was a natural outgrowth of Palmer's KP2 mods around '89. As such, I never saw it having any truly unique value in the factory models, especially along the lines of the automag valve. Custom autocockers are works of art, but off the shelf, the Karnivor was as interesting as it ever became. I wonder why WGP never integrated the whole front block and made it their own, something like PTP's integrated pneumatic trigger/actuator. Maybe SP or others cut them off and blocked the development. Without some core value in truly unique design ownership, a company has to live on marketing. You hate to see any quality marker maker go down, but they never seemed to have a 'niche' market, just a loyal following.

Anyway, what's the deal with the ANS X5 series? Is ANS still making those? Not much meat for custom milling, but as mini/midget/half blocks, they would be tiny.


Mt brother just bought me a ANS X5, well he bought it and sold it to me on the side. ITs a solid piece. I have it vacuum timed and use it alot on saturdays when i dont want to bring out one of my xmags. It recently had a cocking arm break, i sent it in they fixed it for free, of course they re timed it so i had to re-vaccum time it to get rid of the feedneck blowback. They still have numerous x5's for sale and parts out the wazzoo for them.

Great customer service ANS, they even overnighted my cocker back to me.

[Ydna]

You have to remember that WGP is owned by the same corporation owning five or six other paintball companies as well. It's a massive holding company buying everything up they possibly can. Brass Eagle, Viewloader, Stryler, etc.

They've been clearancing Autocockers for quite a while now. In with their newer things and out with the cockers and such.

[Maghog]

...so what you are saying is that someone other than Jeff or Bud pulled the plug. If that's the case, then that's pretty darned bitter.

[punkncat]

WOW!! I wonder how Bud feels....


AGD

If Bud had given half a rat's a...butt he wouldn't have sold it in the first place.

[kurtisqpublic]

If Bud had given half a rat's a...butt he wouldn't have sold it in the first place.

People get old and retire. Companies are sold... It happens to everybody sooner or later. From what I gather, Jeff Orr stayed in the picture didn't he?

[KevinA]

Did Bud step down before or after JT bought them out?

[kurtisqpublic]

Not sure. I haven't followed the market in years. I'm just getting back into the game, but Bud, Tom and all the old timers are great fellas and are a rare breed. They made the game great!

[KevinA]

Aye... that they are.

[ShotgunFacelift]

None too happy about this.

Ive used autocockers for my entire paintball life, in fact the same slider trigger has been on no less than 4 cockers over 7 years.

I had the vain hope that WGP products could ride back into the foreground with the recent move towards stock class play.

Looks like I'm going to be hoarding cocker parts for the foreseeable future.

[rabidchihauhau]

You have to remember that WGP is owned by the same corporation owning five or six other paintball companies as well. It's a massive holding company buying everything up they possibly can. Brass Eagle, Viewloader, Stryler, etc.

They've been clearancing Autocockers for quite a while now. In with their newer things and out with the cockers and such.

Just for the record:

Brass Eagle was a Canadian Manufacturer. Daisy purchased it. Then they took it public.

Then the acquired Viewloader and JT USA.

Then it was purchased by K2.

Then K2 purchased WGP

The Jarden purchased the whole shebang.

Jarden is not a 'holding company' per se. They are a manufacturing and distribution firm. They own Coleman brand, among others.

***

I REALLY wish I knew how the accountants and paintball management types bamboozled the big money guys into buying them - BE, NPS/PMI, ProCaps, Tippmann. How'd those guys 'cook the books' in a legal fashion that made it look - to experienced, jaded, out-for-profit-only money men, that paintball was actually growing, that they could actually achieve market dominance and would actually make a profit? I mean, how did they do it? Anyone on the inside with half a brain knew how overblown the industry was, how overly inflated the numbers claimed were - but they still went ahead and bought those companies.

BE was sold on the basis of the Stingray for gosh sakes! Yes, it was truly innovative and brought a lot of kids into the market, but - seriously. Are the guys that make the big bucks REALLY that stupid? (Yes, Daisy had good relations with walmart at the time, but they had NO deal to distribute paintball product through them when they made the purchase.)

Inside info hints that none of the big investors are really happy with what they bought; if they decide to dump those lines...

***

The REAL downturn in this industry began the very day that someone, somewhere said "this could be big. We need to get corporate America involved..."

[punkncat]

People get old and retire. Companies are sold... It happens to everybody sooner or later. From what I gather, Jeff Orr stayed in the picture didn't he?


The point is that had he really been concerned at that point what happened to the brand he would have considered who he was selling to and what their intentions were going to be. Selling to a super conglomerate as it was it is quite obvious even to the uninformed that at that point the only intrest was the number of positions on the check.

[kurtisqpublic]

The point is that had he really been concerned at that point what happened to the brand he would have considered who he was selling to and what their intentions were going to be. Selling to a super conglomerate as it was it is quite obvious even to the uninformed that at that point the only intrest was the number of positions on the check.

I see your point but when I retire I would be thinking of how big of a nest egg the sale of my company would render rather than how long will the product stick around after I'm gone. Leave the marketing research to the new owners, I'll be focused on beaches and relaxation! :D

[MAGslinger]

WGP went out of business when 2k2 bought it. What killed WGP?

1. They did not listen to the consumer base

2. They catered mainly to speedball

3. They shut out Woodsballers

4. They did not respond to the markets demand for Pump Paintball markers

5. Outsourcing in the paintball industry, making you products outside the USA, will kill your paintball company

Long live the Mag!

[BigEvil]

If Bud had given half a rat's a...butt he wouldn't have sold it in the first place.


Bud was smart. He got out when the gettin' was good. If someone waved a ton of cash in your face you would have done the same thing. (Me too!) :)

[Spider-TW]

I REALLY wish I knew how the accountants and paintball management types bamboozled the big money guys into buying them - BE, NPS/PMI, ProCaps, Tippmann. How'd those guys 'cook the books' in a legal fashion that made it look - to experienced, jaded, out-for-profit-only money men, that paintball was actually growing, that they could actually achieve market dominance and would actually make a profit? I mean, how did they do it? Anyone on the inside with half a brain knew how overblown the industry was, how overly inflated the numbers claimed were - but they still went ahead and bought those companies.
If you don't count the bloat of the last few years and tried to sell the business on the growth of total number paint and marker sales over the previous 10 years, I would think you would see some impressive numbers. However, given the way things kind of topped out, it looks like a real exponential curve, with the steep climb and the limit at saturation. They were probably looking for a position in the market and went for the easy in.

I think the internet has helped develop the market by reaching a lot more people, but that growth has also slowed. There's a lot of support and supply available on the internet (like Airgun Designs). It's like the internet is the main business forum for paintball now. Too bad shipping is so high on paint. :)

[Chronobreak]

I think the rumor of the cockers death has been greatly exagerated.


they are just clearing a bunch of old inventory from what the post said...unles im missing something

[going_home]

I think the rumor of the cockers death has been greatly exagerated.
they are just clearing a bunch of old inventory from what the post said...unles im missing something

You are missing something.

Taken from the thread on PBN (post #62) :



I really dont know the future of the cocker. I am currently wrapping things up here in carlsbad after that my days with Jt/wgp are done.

The cocker is as done as burnt toast.
Stick a fork in it.
At least thats what I'm reading between the lines.


:wow:

[MAGslinger]

Once that inventory is sold off, expect to see a increased demand for Autocockers. The price of one, even a Pump one with the WGP trademarks WILL go up in price (as if it has not already.) As for Automag's, I am proud to own two of them and I am proud that they are located in my home state. Autocockers will live on, Budd will release the patents and you'll see more custom stuff in the years to come.

[rabidchihauhau]

If you don't count the bloat of the last few years and tried to sell the business on the growth of total number paint and marker sales over the previous 10 years, I would think you would see some impressive numbers. However, given the way things kind of topped out, it looks like a real exponential curve, with the steep climb and the limit at saturation. They were probably looking for a position in the market and went for the easy in.

I think the internet has helped develop the market by reaching a lot more people, but that growth has also slowed. There's a lot of support and supply available on the internet (like Airgun Designs). It's like the internet is the main business forum for paintball now. Too bad shipping is so high on paint. :)

I was being at least partially sarcastic.

What you say is correct - but consider the following as well:

If I was running a company that commanded hundreds of millions + of investment dollars, I most definately would not be buying anything until after I've done due diligence AND market analysis.

I would imagine that things such as inflated attendance claims, unreasonably optimistic sales estimates, ridiculously low return rates, and accounting that either doesn't make sense or doesn't balance on both sides of the ledger no matter how much magic you do, (among other things) would make themselves glaringly evident to a company that can obviously afford the best in financial analysts, investment strategists and business attorneys.

Situations similar to the above were glaringly obvious to anyone in the industry who bothered to think about it for two seconds. They should have been equally evident to people that make buying and selling businesses their business.

Then again, buying inventory as part of a deal and then having it disappear out the back door is just as preventable and that's happened plenty of times already, so maybe I'm expecting a little too much from the professionals.

[Spider-TW]

Then again, buying inventory as part of a deal and then having it disappear out the back door is just as preventable and that's happened plenty of times already, so maybe I'm expecting a little too much from the professionals.
Yeah, I don't know what they were doing, but I do know 'professionals' are people too. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, etc. Having a degree helps weed the group out, but there are always those that make you wonder how they got there. I think IQ levels run with the root mean square of the group, so I don't give credit to larger companies just for their size. :p

Maybe they have a plan...

[Chronobreak]

I was being at least partially sarcastic.

What you say is correct - but consider the following as well:

If I was running a company that commanded hundreds of millions + of investment dollars, I most definately would not be buying anything until after I've done due diligence AND market analysis.

I would imagine that things such as inflated attendance claims, unreasonably optimistic sales estimates, ridiculously low return rates, and accounting that either doesn't make sense or doesn't balance on both sides of the ledger no matter how much magic you do, (among other things) would make themselves glaringly evident to a company that can obviously afford the best in financial analysts, investment strategists and business attorneys.

Situations similar to the above were glaringly obvious to anyone in the industry who bothered to think about it for two seconds. They should have been equally evident to people that make buying and selling businesses their business.

Then again, buying inventory as part of a deal and then having it disappear out the back door is just as preventable and that's happened plenty of times already, so maybe I'm expecting a little too much from the professionals.

sounds bout spot on, someone must have had dealing with them before :ninja:

some people are just stuck in their ways or dont know how to approach the market, or are getting the wrong info on how to do so


--edit as for a plan, have you seen the stuff JT,WGP, BE have been releasing? it is not hitting any target market that i am seeing and is pretty poorly thought out in terms of desighns if you ask me.

--double edit i think what we are seeing is a company that needs to streamline things as AGD did not too long ago when they started clearing out inventory

[rabidchihauhau]

there's streamlining and then there's streamlining. Reminds me of those super models that get caught in the bulemia trap...

[Silverback]

Hey Tom,

Glad your still taking a peak at the boards occasionally. Still swear by AGD, even MORE today than when I got my first one back in 1992, playing for "Texas Storm".

Hope to here more from you in the days ahead.

CHUFF! CHUFF! :headbang:

[Spider-TW]

as for a plan, have you seen the stuff JT,WGP, BE have been releasing? it is not hitting any target market that i am seeing and is pretty poorly thought out in terms of desighns if you ask me.
I don't see that market either, but if it's cheap enough, a big company can keep junk on the shelves for a very long time. Cheap stuff doesn't require advertising, just a slick package. I think the worse end of it is that it provides starter equipment to the uniformed and unguided, if only for a day. The vandalism and accidents settled against the big companies take a chunk out of our prize marker makers through insurance.

Insurance is where capitalism and socialism meet.

[grEnAlEins]

This is really too bad. Really sad to see such and old company go belly up. I hope the price for a decent cocker does not go through the roof... :p