Did AGD make prototypes of loading systems?

[questionful]

http://www.airsoldier.com/~haveblue/tech/patents/US006467473.pdf

So. . . were prototypes made? Are they still around? Info, pics, vids? New ideas?

I hope this starts an interesting conversation.

[grEnAlEins]

http://www.airsoldier.com/~haveblue/tech/patents/US006467473.pdf

So. . . were prototypes made? Are they still around? Info, pics, vids? New ideas?

I hope this starts an interesting conversation.
Isn't that the warp feed (http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/warp_feed.shtml) ? :confused:

I use one to this day. It rocks! :headbang: :headbang:

[questionful]

One of them is, there are several.

[MANN]

the one on the RT classic looks intersting.

[cyrus-the-virus]

I'd like to know more about the backpack one, that design does not look like it would work too well.

[AGD]

There were backpack loaders that were made from the warp feed. They worked really well and we displayed the proto at tournaments. No one was even remotely interested.

We had a lot of good ideas for loading systems but the warp never really took off and was put down by the general community. That ended our efforts on loaders, so you keep living with the blimp.

AGD

[Sumthinwicked]

tk as to the backpack ones if they were semi useable and reasonably priced as to not being like 500 per one i know of many people who have thought about the backpack style of a loader usefull . i think they would be good for tanks maybe a market in the 4000 round hopper ? tank kit ? maybe i can commission one made ? show it off at skrimish i would love to talk to you about a good loading system for say 2 emags /hyperframed mags pnuemags mounted to my tank if your interested pm me and im a serious person i bought a 88 samurai and i have dumped 3000 into it making it into my drivable paintball tank LOL fix rig first mount guns later LOL but ill need a loader soon so i mise well start designing it i have a few ideas but ur smarter than me ;)

[skipdogg]

Just a guess, but marketing backpack loaders to tournament players is missing the target. Backpack loaders = scenario/woods ball players.

[KevinA]

tk as to the backpack ones if they were semi useable and reasonably priced as to not being like 500 per one i know of many people who have thought about the backpack style of a loader usefull . i think they would be good for tanks maybe a market in the 4000 round hopper ? tank kit ? maybe i can commission one made ? show it off at skrimish i would love to talk to you about a good loading system for say 2 emags /hyperframed mags pnuemags mounted to my tank if your interested pm me and im a serious person i bought a 88 samurai and i have dumped 3000 into it making it into my drivable paintball tank LOL fix rig first mount guns later LOL but ill need a loader soon so i mise well start designing it i have a few ideas but ur smarter than me ;)
I'd like to see pictures of that finished product. :headbang:

[rabidchihauhau]

Tom,

you and I had lot's of discussions about the Warp, didn't we? :)

There are two early warp 'protos' at Pro-Team; one is a machinable wax mockup of the body, the other is a solid (black) body form made from some plastic other than what was finally used to mold the shells. The black body can accept (early) components and worked at one point. We used it to test hoses (so many different kinds of hoses...)

I am POSITIVE that Forest will not be interested in giving up either prototype - although he might be persuaded to take pics.

Now, speaking from the perspective of a tournament player who used a level 7 automag in serious tournament play up through 1997/1998 season, and speaking as someone who got a very early look at the Warp and had an opportunity to play with it and offer suggestions, here's some of the observations I offered to Tom at the time:

1. I was fully cognizant of the design intentions but felt, from my read of the market, that a 'sidecar' configuration was not going to be accepted by the tournament crowd. I strongly urged AGD to look into adapting it for an 'in-line' configuration.

I readily admit that this has nothing to do with the product and everything to do with perception. Don't forget, these are the same people who rejected the Vector because the relief valve hissed all the time...

2. Had tournaments gone in the direction of the USPL format, there is no doubt in my mind that the Warp would be on the market today. Paul Bollenbach (Jax Warriors) used one at Paintfest and dominated over the top of the bunkers (they were all laydowns), because his profile was so much lower than everyone else's.

3. I also felt that backpacks were not the way to go - for either market. Three reasons: first, someone came up with one a few years ealier and it wasn't well-received. Second, the tournament crowd had essentially just rejected backbottle remote systems (hard points on the back, gun manueverability) and third - reloading. The biggest issue is, you can't really switch hands easily and, your front-to-back profile is now twice as wide.

Again, all perceptual issues, but I like to think that I (did) have my finger on the pulse of that perception (as stupid, ignorant, biased, politicized and unreasonable as it often was).

I believe that a warp that incorporates a 'loader' (and I think I know why it doesn't) could stand a chance and I believe that a gun that incorporates a warp (perhaps in front of the trigger guard, under the barrel) could be successful.

For those who are interested, I did come up with one marginally successful mounting system for the warp.

It requires the manufacturing of a bracket looking something like a lazy, stretched and backwards 'Z'.

the upper portion mounts below the grip. the lower portion mounts to the top of the warp and has a hole cut in it for the hose adapter to fit through.

You need to move your tank to a front mounted position (like some of the Brits used to do), and the warp-with-loader essentially acts like a shoulder stock.

With the right length of bracket, the gun remains well-balanced, and everything is 'in-line', with the extra 'height' positioned such that it remains below your cover when in firing position.

(I used alumnium bar for the bracket. the only issue was drilling the feed hole. I didn't pursue this design because I also felt that the front-mounted bottle would be perceived as a 'no-no' by the in crowd.)

[AGD]

Yes Steve you were right. I didn't (and still don't) understand the post 1995 market.

We did have a design that was centered under the barrel. The problem was we would have to build the gun and loader together and you would have to buy them as a set. We thought that the Warp was the better way to go since it could be configured to your liking and added to your current setup. Our thinking was that once we got you hooked on the idea we could make a second gen integrated product.

AGD

[custar]

IMHO, things have indeed changed in the marker, at least recently. The scenario segment is more viable than it has been and perhaps more viable overall than the speedball segment. A group of us at D-Day really looked into warp feeds in backpacks for scenario play. It seemed like the warp feed had difficulty feeding through more than ~ 18", so we scrapped the idea. We had more success in feeding our linked If a backpack loader could be made to work effectively, there would be a market for it in the scenario field. I couldn't see a backpack being viable in the tournament community, mostly because it would be more difficult to change the marker between the player's hands. The pods work alright since they can be reloaded between games. On the other hand, in scenario play the game may last from two to eight hours. It would be an acceptable trade off to keep the marker in one hand or the other in order to increase the amount of paint that could be carried effectively and efficiently while on the field.

That said, a mount of a hose feeder directly under the barrel would be an acceptable alternative. I like my Qloader, but it is limited to 100 rounds per pod. A loader that mounted similar to a Qloader but held 200 rounds or so, it would sell. Keeping that blimp of a hopper off the top of the marker would be a significant advantage.

custar

[rabidchihauhau]

Custar,

in the scenarios I've played in (admittedly few and far between) the need to switch hands was just as important as on the tournament field. Losing that ability would be too much of a detriment.

Carrying all that weight would be as well. Tactically, I think it would be more effective to stick with the current systems and, if necessary, have one player carrying a large amount of paint for the group/squad/whatever.

Paintball, regardless of format, remains too fluid to justify weighing yourself down. I'd rather have two fast guys with just a couple of balls in a key/threatening position than a whole line of weighted down players too far away from the action...

"He who gets there fustest with the mostest..."

[rabidchihauhau]

Tom,

dare I suggest that understanding this market is relatively simple?

Think of the most idiotic thing you can think of, dumb it down from there, stick a high price tag on it and then pay off the folks at a certain website. Oh, I forgot: stick an offensive name on the product too...

[halB]

Why is there an issue with switching hands? If the hose goes up over the top and on your shoulder, not only do you get a sexy parrot there, you also get a neck protector (on one side) that allows you to switch hands.

[grEnAlEins]

I can shoot fine out of either side with my warp... just saying. You can shoot at any orientation. I can also do it with a standard hopper w/o switching hands. I shoot goofier than heck though. Right hand holing gripframe or talon grip/back of marker, left fingers on trigger :tard:

When I shoot my warped marker, I hold it normal though :confused:

[LK-13]

but,
Warp feeds are still on the market, aren't they?
yep, just looked on the AGD online shop and there they are...
or do you mean Warp Feeds for guns other than Mags?
any gun can use a Warp with enough imagination.
if you think you can't do something, your not looking at the problem correctly!

I'm building some Mag based guns
(13 at the very least, some double barreled)
you guys are going to Plotz over!
your going to love these!!!

here is a sneak peek at the...........

"ACME MARVIN T. MARTIAN .68 CAL ATOM BLASTER"

Surrender Earthling!!
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/LK-13/marvin11-1.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/LK-13/April2008CustomMagBody_06.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/LK-13/April2008CustomMagBody_18.jpg

Most of the guns I'm building are going into Wood Stocks,
Kind of like what Glenn Palmer did with the upgrading of the Sheridan KP guns
only different...
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/LK-13/April2008CustomMagBody_22.jpg

[PsychoBaller]

Why not just take a WarpFeed, and put an integrated shell above it, to carry paint in itself? Instead of putting a whole other hopper on top of it.

[rabidchihauhau]

we're talking about warps mounted on any gun; we're talking about swapping hands so that you're shooting left handed out the left side of cover and right handed out the right side of cover so that you expose as little of yourself as possible.

you can twist a warp on a gun for little exposure keeping it right handed out the left side, but its not as natural as switching hands.

as far as backpack mounted ones go - try it and you'll see what we mean.

the hose should not go over your shoulder either...

green - yes you can - but its faster to switch than it is to contort, you may not be able to contort, given the kind of cover you're behind, etc., etc.

[grEnAlEins]

you can twist a warp on a gun for little exposure keeping it right handed out the left side, but its not as natural as switching hands.

green - yes you can - but its faster to switch than it is to contort, you may not be able to contort, given the kind of cover you're behind, etc., etc.
That depends on what is natural and feels right to you. It is an individual thing.

Is it faster to switch hands? I do not know. I never switch hands, as I never need to. I hold my speedball guns goofy, which eliminates the need. For me, rotating the gun 90* is not that difficult. It is easier than trying to hold the marker in a way that is not comfortable to me.

It is all personal preference, just like anything else.


Why not just take a WarpFeed, and put an integrated shell above it, to carry paint in itself? Instead of putting a whole other hopper on top of it.

This is an interesting idea. Personally I do not mind using a hopper on top of the warp. I have hoppers, so it is not even like I had to buy an extra one. I think an integrated hopper would be cool though.

[jaywmustang]

there is talk about a backpack loader coming out on special ops. still being developed. there r some vids and looks good and seems to feed fast.
http://forum.specialopspaintball.com/index.php?showtopic=125959

vids r on page 4 post 47

[BigEvil]

HAHA I broke out the warp feed today for the first time in months and I come home and find this thread. Awesome.


The two reasons I like the warp are
-I can site over the barrel of my xmag
-I dont have to switch hands to shoot left, I can tilt toe whole gun.

The main thing I dislike is the additional weight. I am normally not one to gripe about such things, but on a day like to day where I was dragging my rear-end around the added weight was noticeable.

[grEnAlEins]

HAHA I broke out the warp feed today for the first time in months and I come home and find this thread. Awesome.


The two reasons I like the warp are
-I can site over the barrel of my xmag
-I dont have to switch hands to shoot left, I can tilt toe whole gun.

The main thing I dislike is the additional weight. I am normally not one to gripe about such things, but on a day like to day where I was dragging my rear-end around the added weight was noticeable.
YES!! Exactly what I've been sayin :headbang:

[Chronobreak]

i still use a warp whenever i play, the warp always seemed about half finished to me or a partial solution to the blimp problem. It was also missing several features that seemed a necesity for me personaly

its underfed or nothing, anyone notice the scenario market creeping into underfed guns? :ninja:

once a large company pushes the idea right , it will catch on like wildfire, mark my words

no , seriously MARK THEM ;)


--solution, if a manufacturer doesnt or wont make it, make your own

[MANN]

-I dont have to switch hands to shoot left, I can tilt toe whole gun.



This is exactly what I do. I cannot shoot left handed. (it would be similar to me batting/golfing left handed. I might be able to do it, but it feels wayy to awkward.). just tilting the gun 90 degrees works perfect.

[PsychoBaller]

The main thing I dislike is the additional weight. I am normally not one to gripe about such things, but on a day like to day where I was dragging my rear-end around the added weight was noticeable.

Such the reason for an integrated paint holding shell on top o the warp. No Extra hopper, with extra batteries, etc...

[rabidchihauhau]

you guys are welcome to your opinion vis-a-vis no switching, but your lunch will get eaten by good players who do

distinct advantage and the only reason for not doing so - even with a warpfeed on the gun - is lack of practice.

sorry to challenge your opinions in such a blunt fashion, but its been demonstrated for at least the past ten years that there are numerous advantages to learning to do so. one of which is speed, and another of which is retaining the proper posture for dealing with both sides of your cover effectively.

this isn't one of those situations where everyone's opinion is just an opinion, its demonstrated fact.

[MANN]

you guys are welcome to your opinion vis-a-vis no switching, but your lunch will get eaten by good players who do

distinct advantage and the only reason for not doing so - even with a warpfeed on the gun - is lack of practice.

sorry to challenge your opinions in such a blunt fashion, but its been demonstrated for at least the past ten years that there are numerous advantages to learning to do so. one of which is speed, and another of which is retaining the proper posture for dealing with both sides of your cover effectively.

this isn't one of those situations where everyone's opinion is just an opinion, its demonstrated fact.

ooops. I appoligize. I forgot to mention I just play for fun. I am not a professional. Woodsball, rec speedball, and internets are not serious buisness where I come from. Its just a game. :cheers:

[grEnAlEins]

you guys are welcome to your opinion vis-a-vis no switching, but your lunch will get eaten by good players who do

distinct advantage and the only reason for not doing so - even with a warpfeed on the gun - is lack of practice.

sorry to challenge your opinions in such a blunt fashion, but its been demonstrated for at least the past ten years that there are numerous advantages to learning to do so. one of which is speed, and another of which is retaining the proper posture for dealing with both sides of your cover effectively.

this isn't one of those situations where everyone's opinion is just an opinion, its demonstrated fact.
Not really talking about using a warp for the tournament scene. I use a Reloader B for that. I do switch marker orientation when I play an event, but I do not really switch hands per say. I tilt the marker the same way you would if you switched hands, but I use my left fingers on the trigger whether I shoot "Righty" or "Lefty" I switch how I "cradle" the tank as well. I sometimes switch my right hand grip slightly when I switch sides. It is something that you would probably have to see a pic of to understand. It has worked well overall in all of the local, regional, and NCPA events that I have played.

For rec play at my local field, I use a warp. Why? 1) It is cool IMO 2) It is a conversation piece 3) I like being able to shoot upside down 3) my mag with a warp setup is just fun to shoot, though I would not be inclined to use it at an event (Z-grip, endo drop, 15* foregrip, and a warp is just to awkward to play competitively with :spit_take, it is a fun marker to use though)

I agree 100% with the idea that being able to switch sides effectively is crucial, but switching hand not so much.

[Tao]

There were backpack loaders that were made from the warp feed. They worked really well and we displayed the proto at tournaments. No one was even remotely interested.

We had a lot of good ideas for loading systems but the warp never really took off and was put down by the general community. That ended our efforts on loaders, so you keep living with the blimp.

AGD

Ca you enlighten us with some of those ideas? :)

[Tao]

Just a guess, but marketing backpack loaders to tournament players is missing the target. Backpack loaders = scenario/woods ball players.

What do you mean???? People carry 500-2000 rounds on their backs for speedball already!!!!

[AnthonyDStone]

you guys are welcome to your opinion vis-a-vis no switching, but your lunch will get eaten by good players who do

distinct advantage and the only reason for not doing so - even with a warpfeed on the gun - is lack of practice.

sorry to challenge your opinions in such a blunt fashion, but its been demonstrated for at least the past ten years that there are numerous advantages to learning to do so. one of which is speed, and another of which is retaining the proper posture for dealing with both sides of your cover effectively.

this isn't one of those situations where everyone's opinion is just an opinion, its demonstrated fact.

Technically,From a Using cover effectively/Profile point of view,Shooting CrossHanded,Is about the same as shooting with your off hand.Try that with a warpfeed,It should work great<Never tried it though,No Warp.

Crosshanded shooting:Shoulder your tank into your OFF HAND SHOULDER,Hold the foregrip with your OFF hand and Pull the trigger with your NATURAL hand.If you do it properly your profile will be about the same as shooting left.Also to learn to shoot naturally with your off hand becomes easier after practice of the crosshanded tachnique,Switch your hands position from crosshand and pull the trigger with your off hand.Voila,You're an Expert!Like Me :ninja:

Tony

[grEnAlEins]

Technically,From a Using cover effectively/Profile point of view,Shooting CrossHanded,Is about the same as shooting with your off hand.Try that with a warpfeed,It should work great<Never tried it though,No Warp.

Crosshanded shooting:Shoulder your tank into your OFF HAND SHOULDER,Hold the foregrip with your OFF hand and Pull the trigger with your NATURAL hand.If you do it properly your profile will be about the same as shooting left.Also to learn to shoot naturally with your off hand becomes easier after practice of the crosshanded tachnique,Switch your hands position from crosshand and pull the trigger with your off hand.Voila,You're an Expert!Like Me :ninja:

Tony
:rofl: That is how I shoot normally... that is what I was trying to describe

[AnthonyDStone]

There were backpack loaders that were made from the warp feed. They worked really well and we displayed the proto at tournaments. No one was even remotely interested.

We had a lot of good ideas for loading systems but the warp never really took off and was put down by the general community. That ended our efforts on loaders, so you keep living with the blimp.

AGD

Personally,I have NO Problem with the blimp.What was the Deal on the AT85Rs(TS1)?Seems like they were using the conveyor Idea slightly.Backpack Loader would be OK if it Held enough rounds that you didn't need to reload the entire game,And at the same time not bounce and be a Huge Ugly Target.

Tony

[AnthonyDStone]

:rofl: That is how I shoot normally... that is what I was trying to describe

Well You Know How I do It!With a Pistol no less. :D

Tony

[Beemer]

you guys are welcome to your opinion vis-a-vis no switching, but your lunch will get eaten by good players who do

distinct advantage and the only reason for not doing so - even with a warpfeed on the gun - is lack of practice.

sorry to challenge your opinions in such a blunt fashion, but its been demonstrated for at least the past ten years that there are numerous advantages to learning to do so. one of which is speed, and another of which is retaining the proper posture for dealing with both sides of your cover effectively.

this isn't one of those situations where everyone's opinion is just an opinion, its demonstrated fact.

Ya bla bla bla. Blow me some more smoke. :ninja: I.A.D.S.P.B.P. You just need to be an actor to get it dont Ya. :argh: See here and learn the lesson Grasshopper. :cheers:
Your thinking is still inside the box. :spit_take

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/TomKayeWarpLesson.wmv

Heres my Team[3, 5, 7, or 10 man] facts for ya to think about. Paint is what ever you want to carry.

You reload the blimp. WE DONT HAVE TO RELOAD. :eek: We have no blimp on top and WE DONT HAVE TO shoot off hand.[see vid above] :headbang:

My Team is Better then good and we dont switch so what ya got for lunch. :ninja: :cheers:

[Beemer]

And another thing. How come the Warp was not allowed in the NPPL when it came out. Doh, no force fed loaders, but then that Halo thing came out and it was OK.[force fed] No politics here. :spit_take Gotta love AGD as much as they suck, always two steps ahead of the game and waiting for everyone to ketchep. :rofl:

I had to pay a dime everytime I said this sucks to AGD about his stuff and now he is retired.
Funny thing tho. When I hit the field, only the tank and hopper aint AGD. Thats a Mag in some form with a warp and Flatline. The Warp is user moded and I do have and use a Dynaflow reg. Mostly it is AAGDATT, All AGD All The Time. Anybody else put a rating on their valves. :argh:


That ended our efforts on loaders, so you keep living with the blimp

AGD

Heh not all of us only most. If there was no warp I would be using the Q. HOT = hopper off the top and I only see two options for that. Like Rapid said you thought to smart. Should have thunk stupid cause that is where Paintball went. :(

[Ninjeff]

anymore awesome vids like that one Beemer?

[PsychoBaller]

And another thing. How come the Warp was not allowed in the NPPL when it came out. Doh, no force fed loaders, but then that Halo thing came out and it was OK.[force fed] No politics here. :spit_take Gotta love AGD as much as they suck, always two steps ahead of the game and waiting for everyone to ketchep. :rofl:

I had to pay a dime everytime I said this sucks to AGD about his stuff and now he is retired.
Funny thing tho. When I hit the field, only the tank and hopper aint AGD. Thats a Mag in some form with a warp and Flatline. The Warp is user moded and I do have and use a Dynaflow reg. Mostly it is AAGDATT, All AGD All The Time. Anybody else put a rating on their valves. :argh: :(

Aint that the truth... :(

While my AGD roar isn't what it used to be, my heart will always remain tru.

AGD rules :D

:cheers:

-baller

[custar]

"He who gets there fustest with the mostest..."


Breaking out the Nathan Bedford Forrest on me, eh?



in the scenarios I've played in (admittedly few and far between) the need to switch hands was just as important as on the tournament field. Losing that ability would be too much of a detriment.


Being able to change a marker between hands is an advantage in scenario ball, but less so in speedball. Cover is less predictable in scenario ball, making it more difficult to exploit than in speedball. Also, since the boundaries tend to be much larger than on a speedball field, staying in cover in one spot is suicide against any adversary that has half a brain. A static position will be flanked by any unit or team that has one member with a functioning brain cell or two. Therefore, there will tend to be fewer occasions to stay behind cover and switch between shooting righty vs. lefty.



Carrying all that weight would be as well. Tactically, I think it would be more effective to stick with the current systems and, if necessary, have one player carrying a large amount of paint for the group/squad/whatever.

Paintball, regardless of format, remains too fluid to justify weighing yourself down. I'd rather have two fast guys with just a couple of balls in a key/threatening position than a whole line of weighted down players too far away from the action...


I don't have any disagreement in principle with most of that. However, many teams that stay together tend to organize over time somewhat like speedball teams but with different monikers. Some players will tend to specialize in the lighter equipment and faster maneuver (frontmen) while others will take the role of SAW's or back players who carry quite a bit of paint. Others will be more generalists (mid players or riflemen). I still think a backpack would be desirable for a heavy gunner/SAW/backman-type player and viable for a rifleman/midplayer.



in the scenarios I've played in (admittedly few and far between)


If you need to get up to speed in current scenario ball in one week, I have an event for you this summer.

custar

[hitech]

There were backpack loaders that were made from the warp feed...

You don't have any of those laying around any more, do you?

_____________________________________________

<img src="http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q45/delabril/hitech.gif">

Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD <img src ="http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q45/delabril/smiley_mini102.gif">
Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
The only Hitech Lubricant (http://www.kercon.com)

[Chris Nearchos]

does anybody have pictures of the prototype one (back-pack) that went traveling?