Tom should get a kick out of this one -

[cockerpunk]

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2673311

good old smart parts.

there marketing can clearly break the laws of physics.

[snoopay700]

:rofl: I was going to post in there and then i saw doc did, i haven't read it yet, but i found the fist post entertaining. And then i read the second post as saw that someone hasn't heard about pressure equalizing behind the ball no matter what your bolt looks like and i laughed harder (people claim a larger bore will give you the flatline effect with this type of bolt, but seeing as the flatline uses an abrasive surface i'm calling shens on that). Ah, to see that this is still alive and well even today gives me a little laugh, as well as sadness.

[Dewok82]

Here are a few gems from the SP rep...


Over 30. But seriously... a higher ROF does not mean a better gun. If you increase the cycling speed of the gun, you increase the force applied to the paintball. Hence, you break more paint. I think I will trade ROF in for breaking less paint any day.

I stole one from Darryl on Thursday and got to play with it. I shot 7 pods and 1 hopper and still had about 1500 in the tank. I cannot believe how quiet it is. I found out that if you use a tight fit on the insert, it makes it quieter. I was watching Dynasty practice today here as well. I saw a couple on the field being beat up.

It is more accurate than my other guns, and had better range.
(emphasis mine)


It is not a perception. I guess you are one of those people that think that the exit veolcity of a paintball gun will give you the same range no matter what type of gun it is?

:rofl:

[snoopay700]

Well, if there is no backspin on the shocker, I explained it in the conservation of energy to Tom Kaye at he super show in Atlanta years ago, which was about 5 months after I saw Graham shoot the Shocker at the IAO. He said that is was completely plausable.

Potential Energy = Kenetic Energy.

If a Paintball travels further from a shocker at the same speed, then a Spyder. Then, something must be happening to the ball to transfer the potential energy to kenetic faster. Which means something must be happening to the ball itself. If a shocker had backspin, you could see the lift. But I remember being shot by shockers many times and telling those people to chrono, and they were under the field speed. Which led me to belive that the ball was travelling faster at 30 ft then any other gun I had seen at the time. So, I personally think that is has something to do with the ball deformity, or ocsilation of some sort. The ball osciallting would make sense to be based on real world playing. But like I said, I got the ok here to set up the test shoot and video tape it all. Maybe I will set up a chrono as well at 30 ft away as well.

:rofl:
This is the one that got me going. Can't wait till Tom sees that thread.

[Automagsam]

:rofl:
This is the one that got me going. Can't wait till Tom sees that thread.
Yeah and the guy claimed he told Tom years ago....

[skipdogg]

Thanks for the link. I only go to PBN when threads like this go up on AO. I love that thread. Also, it is high time I say thanks to cockerpunk for always giving the back hand slap to smart parts. I love reading your comments. BTW is it just me or does that Sean guy from Smart Parts just scream 'jag'

[snoopay700]

Thanks for the link. I only go to PBN when threads like this go up on AO. I love that thread. Also, it is high time I say thanks to cockerpunk for always giving the back hand slap to smart parts. I love reading your comments.
Yeah man, that's what i love about cockerpunk, he's one of the few people on that site that talks any sense, and those that get in arguments with him end up screwed in the end. Along with the automag forum, he's one of the other reasons that site is still bearable.

[grEnAlEins]

............................................______ __
....................................,.-‘”...................``~.,
.............................,.-”...................................“-.,
.........................,/...............................................”:,
.....................,?........................... ...........................\,
.................../.................................................. .........,}
................./.................................................. ....,:`^`..}
.............../.................................................. .,:”........./
..............?.....__............................ .............:`.........../
............./__.(.....“~-,_..............................,:`........../
.........../(_....”~,_........“~,_....................,:`..... ..._/
..........{.._$;_......”=,_.......“-,_.......,.-~-,},.~”;/....}
...........((.....*~_.......”=-._......“;,,./`..../”............../
...,,,___.\`~,......“~.,....................`..... }............../
............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-”
............/.`~,......`-...............................\....../\
.............\`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....\,__
,,_..........}.>-._\...................................|........... ...`=~-,
.....`=~-,_\_......`\,.................................\
...................`=~-,,.\,...............................\
................................`:,,.............. .............`\..............__
.....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==``
........................................_\........ ..._,-%.......`\
...................................,<`.._|_,-&``................

I LOL'd hard at that thread. I am not sure whether the laughter came from frustration or amusement...

[punkncat]

yawn

Cockers shoot further...blah, blah, etc, etc, to infinity and beyond.

Even if someone actually does (more) tests then others will cry skewed results, improper testing, whatever.

[Automagsam]

Don't you guys know along with all of their patents, Physics is one of the things that smart parts patented. :rofl:

Plus SP has tiny smurfs in their guns that make everything possible, its new technology that all the other guns don't have duh...

[Toll]

Some completely unbiased mythbusting thirdperson source could do the test and people would still cry skewed results. I would love to get a whole bunch of high speed cameras and vice in a 98c, a spyder and a 4x4 shocker and see what happened.

Never mind when people who have degrees in physics, engineering and fluid dynamics all happen to come into a thread and say "lolwut?" towards the arguement being placed...Because they don't know what they're talking about.


The real big question I have right now is that if the 4x4 could infact shoot farther than any other gun, why the hell didn't THAT GET TRANSFERED? Why doesn't the NXT have this quality?

[thahouse]

i think gene simmons owns Smarts parts...since gene simmons patented the acronym "OJ" and gets like 4 cents every time someone uses that phrase in an advertisement

[Spider-TW]

Obviously, kenetic energy is not kinetic energy. Also, ocsilation is some sort of silicone deposit.

Here's a another demand for a head-shake smiley.

[grEnAlEins]

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/8295/jpshakeheadkc4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[snoopay700]

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/8295/jpshakeheadkc4.gif (http://imageshack.us)
:clap: Only my expression was more shaking my head and rolling my eyes while laughing, but it still works.

[cyrus-the-virus]

I just so happen to have an old shoebox, I like it already so I'd love to see if there is actually a diffrence(looking at the bolt I'm going to gues not)

[JRingold]

Did someone cue the circus music again?

http://pages.prodigy.net/area512/circus1.mid

:rofl:

[mtaylor]

I don't know why these guys post, they get run into the ground just about every time.


Did someone cue the circus music again?

http://pages.prodigy.net/area512/circus1.mid

:rofl:

listening to that while reading made my day.

[snoopay700]

I just so happen to have an old shoebox, I like it already so I'd love to see if there is actually a diffrence(looking at the bolt I'm going to gues not)
Please tell me you aren't at all serious.

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/8295/jpshakeheadkc4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[grEnAlEins]

http://pages.prodigy.net/area512/circus1.mid
WHAT'S SO FUNNY 'BOUT A BIG BANANA?!
WHAT'S SO FUNNY 'BOUT A BIG BANANA?!
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6931/dancingbananaol4.gif (http://imageshack.us)


I just so happen to have an old shoebox, I like it already so I'd love to see if there is actually a diffrence(looking at the bolt I'm going to gues not)
:( It is virtually impossible that there is a difference if there is no spin or crazy environmental factor. A mass moving at a velocity will fly identically to any other identical mass at the said velocity provided an identical environment. I would imagine that wind speed would have a negligible effect, as would barometric pressure fluctuation at a similar altitude... so it is very unlikely that a 4x4 is gonna shoot nicer than anything else.

[ThePixelGuru]

(emphasis mine)
Wow, that bolded bit is funny, especially since I had a debate with him a while ago where I asked if he thought it was a bad thing that SP made false claims about their products (specifically things like having greater range) and he told me SP never said that. :rolleyes:

I'm not even bothering with this one. Though in other news, it looks like he's getting suspiciously close to the "it shoots farther because the ball is still accelerating after it leaves the barrel" argument.

[Hilltop Customs]

is it really that hard to understand that a marker cant do anything to the ball after it leaves the barrel? If 2 paintballs are shot at the same speed, with the same angle......WTF will make one go farther than another? some super vortex created by the low pressure must get in front of the ball and make it so that air resistance and gravity have no effect



one person did bring up a vaild point that I havent heard be4....different masses of paintballs. IDK if its true, never weighed a paintball. But if somehow one paintball is more dense and has the same shape/air resistance....then it will have a higher velocity down range than a lighter ball. They would both hit the ground at the same time, because gravity doesnt care about anything.....but the heavier ball would be farther down range, because its avg velocity over the whole arc will be higher than a lighter ball(even if the initial velocity is the same).

[gunangel]

I am in no way going up to bat for sp or anything but he could have had something on the top of the barrel. I played with my pump last weekend and I realized I was shooting really far and the ball had a funny path. I took off the barrel and found some water along the top (it was raining and the porting happened to line up with the top) and it was creating friction causing the ball to lift after about 10-15 feet out of the barrel.

other than that sp must have sued physics into submission or what not :rofl:

on a side note, Mr Kaye if you see this I would like to invite you to play a game with the UW huskies when your in the neighborhood (at burke etc)

[Hilltop Customs]

I am in no way going up to bat for sp or anything but he could have had something on the top of the barrel. I played with my pump last weekend and I realized I was shooting really far and the ball had a funny path. I took off the barrel and found some water along the top (it was raining and the porting happened to line up with the top) and it was creating friction causing the ball to lift after about 10-15 feet out of the barrel.

other than that sp must have sued physics into submission or what not :rofl:

on a side note, Mr Kaye if you see this I would like to invite you to play a game with the UW huskies when your in the neighborhood (at burke etc)

that could be true, but he is claiming that "Only a few guns I have seen have been able to shoot futher then other guns at the same velocity. The old Shocker, the DM4, and the original Matrix." So its not some uncontrolled incident....hes making a claim that those markers shoot farther.


For me, the luxe seemed flatter on the trajectory. I have to play with it more before I can say anything like I did in my first post. I have seen the 4X4 shoot further than my cocker chrono'd 35 fps than mine. You have a 4x4 don't you? Or have access to one? I really would like to see a test on that.

Maybe its just me but isnt the only way to flatten a trajectory is to either increase velocity or decrease gravity?(other than putting backspin on the ball, which the luxe doesnt have a mechanism to do this) must be the magic pixi dust....either that or hes on the magic pixi dust

[Whee McGee]

Did someone cue the circus music again?

http://pages.prodigy.net/area512/circus1.mid

:rofl:
I am keeping this on my play list permanently

[paint magnet]

Maybe it shoots further because it uses 3x the air? :D

Or maybe the reg on the shocker wasn't lubed properly and it spiked 50 fps after it was chrono'd.

[KC]

Is a velocity measurment at the tip of a barrel accurate? Im asking this question seriously. Couldnt a ball still be accelerating to a climax before slowing down?

[Boy_Wonder]

HAHAHA, when I read 'Must have been a gust in gravity' I nearly lost it...

Thanks cockerpunk!

One other thing, I've seen that Sean guy make so many ridiculous posts on PBN. If I were Smart Parts, this guy would seem like a liability. Of course, they probably don't care what kind of attention they get as long as they get attention...good or bad.

BTW, here is the original thread in which he hijacked. His posts start on page 2. Really good read if you want a good laugh.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2669804

[AGD]

I was there for the tippman barrel challenge and I can tell you, if a Shocker had out ranged the Flatline we would have heard ALL ABOUT IT in the magazines at that time, not 10 years later.

Denny sold so many of those barrels, that he took the whole company to Disney World as a bonus. SP would have been all over that with their marketing hype if they could have taken a piece of him.

SP continues to be one of the most successful companies in paintball because telling people what they want to hear sells stuff.

AGD

[Phaelynar]

I think Sean from SP and Jack Rice from Alien should duke it out in a cage fight in an epic battle of bullcrap trajectory hype.

[cyrus-the-virus]

At least alian makes good markers at a good price...... LUXE anyone?

[grEnAlEins]

I can tell you, if a Shocker had out ranged the Flatline
Holy heck, I almost I had a heart attack at the ripe old age of 20. I first read "I can tell you, a Shocker had out ranged the Flatline" and I was shocked and confused. Upon re-reading I noticed the "if" :spit_take
Some goodies:

But seriously... a higher ROF does not mean a better gun.
Comming from a SP guy? LOL! I thought I'd never see the day :rofl:

If you increase the cycling speed of the gun, you increase the force applied to the paintball. Hence, you break more paint. I think I will trade ROF in for breaking less paint any day.
:tard: :tard:

It is more accurate than my other guns, and had better range.
:tard: :tard:

I guess I would say it has a flatter trajectory.
:confused:

It is not a perception. I guess you are one of those people that think that the exit veolcity of a paintball gun will give you the same range no matter what type of gun it is?
:spit_take :rofl:

[B-Pow]

Wait....are they stealing the EGO's phoney marketing of "flatter trajectory" now?

It best they used the spit trick...it's old school and the kids these days don't get it.

1) stick finger in mouth (try not to retch at taste of paint residue)
2) whipe wet finger on inside wall (one area) of the tip of barrel
3) free APEX effect (curve shots, backspin for lift, forspin for drop shots)
4) ????
5) profit

That is if it's not a flat out lie.

If I could get to Tyger's website I'd link the scans to SP's glorious crap marketing in the mid 90's. Like that short bus special magic box. Or the priceless vid of the gardner brothers on camera discussing playing paintball...where they contradict themselves several times...I think he has that one on youtube as well.

[Toll]

Damned gravity gusts.

[Phaelynar]

The best part about that thread wasn't the flatter trajectory part, it's that Sean hijacked the guys thread, and when he knew his argument was made of fail, he quickly got a mod to come to his aid and make him look like the hero of getting the thread back on topic. Everyone should just go into that thread and report all of his posts for trolling, as he is in fact instigating an argument within a thread that has zero to do with that topic.

[snoopay700]

is it really that hard to understand that a marker cant do anything to the ball after it leaves the barrel? If 2 paintballs are shot at the same speed, with the same angle......WTF will make one go farther than another? some super vortex created by the low pressure must get in front of the ball and make it so that air resistance and gravity have no effect



one person did bring up a vaild point that I havent heard be4....different masses of paintballs. IDK if its true, never weighed a paintball. But if somehow one paintball is more dense and has the same shape/air resistance....then it will have a higher velocity down range than a lighter ball. They would both hit the ground at the same time, because gravity doesnt care about anything.....but the heavier ball would be farther down range, because its avg velocity over the whole arc will be higher than a lighter ball(even if the initial velocity is the same).
A denser paintball would actually mean that it weighed more than the less dense one, so gravity would care about it and would pull it down faster, so it would stay in the air for less time actually. However, you are right that it will travel farther, however it has been shown on this board (i tried searching but forget what to search for) that this difference isn't appreciable until the barrel is raised about 10 degrees, and then it's a few feet i think, and then further than that is when it really starts to matter. So in short, denser paint couldn't have been the culprit.

And Paint magnet, i know you're probably joking, but just so you know it doesn't use 3x the air, it uses just as much air as a mag in the dump chamber (roughly), it just has a larger volume. That's the only difference, they both use the same amount of air.

[Hilltop Customs]

A denser paintball would actually mean that it weighed more than the less dense one, so gravity would care about it and would pull it down faster, so it would stay in the air for less time actually. However, you are right that it will travel farther, however it has been shown on this board (i tried searching but forget what to search for) that this difference isn't appreciable until the barrel is raised about 10 degrees, and then it's a few feet i think, and then further than that is when it really starts to matter. So in short, denser paint couldn't have been the culprit.


gravity accelerates everything at the same rate....32 fps^2. Weight is just a measure of force....the force gravity is pulling on them. The fact that they are different weights has no signifance, they will both accelerate towards the ground at 32 feet per second.

Now if they were falling close to terminal velocity(say you shot a ball straight up) the heavy one would fall faster because the faster something falls the more air resistance(force) it builds up. Since the force of gravity pulling the heavy ball down is greater than the lighter ball, it would reach a higher terminal velocity because the force of gravity acting on a mass equalizes with the force of air resistance @ termial velocity.

[snoopay700]

gravity accelerates everything at the same rate....32 fps^2. Weight is just a measure of force....the force gravity is pulling on them. The fact that they are different weights has no signifance, they will both accelerate towards the ground at 32 feet per second.

Now if they were falling close to terminal velocity(say you shot a ball straight up) the heavy one would fall faster because the faster something falls the more air resistance(force) it builds up. Since the force of gravity pulling the heavy ball down is greater than the lighter ball, it would reach a higher terminal velocity because the force of gravity acting on a mass equalizes with the force of air resistance @ termial velocity.
GAH, whoops. As soon as i read the first half of your first sentence i realized my error, i was thinking force for some reason, can't explain why.

[cockerpunk]

gravity accelerates everything at the same rate....32 fps^2. Weight is just a measure of force....the force gravity is pulling on them. The fact that they are different weights has no signifance, they will both accelerate towards the ground at 32 feet per second.

Now if they were falling close to terminal velocity(say you shot a ball straight up) the heavy one would fall faster because the faster something falls the more air resistance(force) it builds up. Since the force of gravity pulling the heavy ball down is greater than the lighter ball, it would reach a higher terminal velocity because the force of gravity acting on a mass equalizes with the force of air resistance @ termial velocity.

right, but in the real world, we have air resistance.

a heavier ball has more interia and thus resists the force of air resistance, so it can fly farther.

shooting steel ball at 300 FPS it will certainly fly farther than a paintball due to its higher interia.

[manike]

right, but in the real world, we have air resistance.

a heavier ball has more interia and thus resists the force of air resistance, so it can fly farther.

shooting steel ball at 300 FPS it will certainly fly farther than a paintball due to its higher interia.

Very true, it's been a while since I measured and weighed paint, but there is an advantage to using heavier paint.

Most top tournament paints are made to be heavier. It's one way top tournaments teams used to "cheat". They had special paint made for them that was significantly heavier.

The other benefits are it's less likely to be affected by wind, and it carries more energy so it's more likely to break at the greater distances.

[Hilltop Customs]

right, but in the real world, we have air resistance.

a heavier ball has more interia and thus resists the force of air resistance, so it can fly farther.

shooting steel ball at 300 FPS it will certainly fly farther than a paintball due to its higher interia.


one person did bring up a vaild point that I havent heard be4....different masses of paintballs. IDK if its true, never weighed a paintball. But if somehow one paintball is more dense and has the same shape/air resistance....then it will have a higher velocity down range than a lighter ball. They would both hit the ground at the same time, because gravity doesnt care about anything.....but the heavier ball would be farther down range, because its avg velocity over the whole arc will be higher than a lighter ball(even if the initial velocity is the same).

same thing i was saying earlier in the thread....

[rabidchihauhau]

I was there for the tippman barrel challenge and I can tell you, if a Shocker had out ranged the Flatline we would have heard ALL ABOUT IT in the magazines at that time, not 10 years later.

Denny sold so many of those barrels, that he took the whole company to Disney World as a bonus. SP would have been all over that with their marketing hype if they could have taken a piece of him.

SP continues to be one of the most successful companies in paintball because telling people what they want to hear sells stuff.

AGD

That must have been AFTER I visited the target range at the World Cup with a pump gun. They had the netting over the range, but no banners. When we saw the 'trick' (no elevation) we just got down on our knees behind the table and had no trouble at all making the arc needed to hit the back wall.

We didn't do it to embarrass Ben or Denny - we went over when there was no one else around, and only did it to prove the point that when one oldskool woodsballer comes up with a trick, another oldskooler can come up with another one to top it. I think Ben's remark when asking us to leave was something like "you guys have been playing too long"

My favorite quote from the PBN thread was "the ball must have been moving faster at 30 feet than other balls" or some such.

Graham is an oldskool boy too and knows plenty of his own tricks. That paint most certainly was heavier paint and everyone knows its possible to 'thumb' a cocker and raise the velocity. But I don't even think Graham had to go that far; all he probably did was make sure that the balls he shot over the chrono were halfway down his barrel before shooting them...

[Beemer]

Very true, it's been a while since I measured and weighed paint, but there is an advantage to using heavier paint.

Most top tournament paints are made to be heavier. It's one way top tournaments teams used to "cheat". They had special paint made for them that was significantly heavier.The other benefits are it's less likely to be affected by wind, and it carries more energy so it's more likely to break at the greater distances.

You dont think they still do? What was significantly heavier.
What about size? Lets go small and heavy at 300fps. :eek:

[drg]

That's what Proball was all about.

[rabidchihauhau]

Now, Now Beemer.

We've had this discussion how many times?

Heck, back in the day, I'd have been injecting mercury into my paintballs if I hadn't been worried about poisoning someone.

Until ASTM came along, there was NO regulation covering the weight or size of a paintball, other than the "restricted to paintballs nominally .68 caliber in size".

Nominal by what measure? Within what percentage? 5%? That could be anything from 65 caliber to 71.5 caliber... 10% would be 61.2 to almost 75 caliber...

And, since we're dealing with a sphere, a 5% increase in diameter really ups the volume.

I never checked, but I'd be curious to know what the weight of the ORIGINAL Nelson paint was - the oil-based stuff. I'd be interested in comparing that weight to a graphite-coated late 80's/early 90's RPScherer ball.

Very true, a ball that weighs the maximum ASTM allowable weight that was, say, 60 caliber, would most likely get better range and accuracy because of the reduction of wind-resistance - certainly when compared to a 68 caliber ball of the same weight.

But then, no one checks paint before an event anyhow. Never did, and probably never will. I call that a safety/insurance issue - but then, what do I know?

[custar]

Remember, this is an old-time SP guy telling the story to Sean who seems like the only guy at SP to have any credibility left. In the context of 1999 or 2000, I would not put it past a SP rep to have chrono'd with straight CO2 or HPA and then topped off with the opposite gas to give the marker a little extra fps.

custar