Ya know, I am about "over it".....

[punkncat]

This SP bashing thing has just about gotten onto my last nerve. And I am not really sure that I care what anyone thinks of it, I really have had enough of this "anti Smart Parts", bash them cause they suck for running their business in a way that helps them profit. Was it a bad thing for grass roots paintball? Sure, I suppose it was. But honestly I think if we all had some intrest to protect in an age of litigation and given the same choices that we could all agree. If Smart Parts hadn't done it, someone else would have. Many companies have used the patent process to protect their intrest in a product. A great deal of the time, their claim is questionable. But until someone comes along with enough capital and proof to invalidate the claim there is nothing to do about it. A fact that many well funded companies, who don't gather their fair share of this percieved hate for being partners with Smart Parts, who have decided it was better for them economically to just go along...The number of things in which we have to just "play ball" is boggling. And for certain they aren't the only current manufacturer, or past for that matter, that spews pure BS hype to sell a product. Nor will they be the last.

So now, everywhere you go online, to any forum there is at least one thread where someone somewhere is bashing SP for how they suck, and their products suck, they have never made anything good, anti fanboi spam to the max. You can't even post a pic or ask a question about one of their products without someone coming on the thread to tell you to "throw it in a lake" or "I wouldn't own that crap", "it's junk"....etc. And then you have this legion of people who hang on every word that has ever been said by anyone even marginally involved with SP so they can pick apart what they have to say, adding to this giant circus of a feeding frenzy going on every paintball forum on the net. This junk has probably done more to increase web traffic to any given site for a good bashing thread than any one other thing in paintball. A fact that I am certain is not lost on the bean counters keeping track of this type of thing.

I would be willing to bet that more than half the people involved in the hate and nonsense don't even know the real reasons behind what has gone on. They just hear it, and repeat it to be a part of the "cool" anti Smart Parts bashing club.
Honestly, how many people on this site alone think that AGD isn't making the E/X Mag because of SP?

I am not a huge fan of what they have done and continue to do, but I can understand the why behind it in todays market. This nonsensical bashing has gone well past its usefulness. If you don't like them and don't wish to support them then let your dollars decide. At this point, they are so deeply entrenched into the industry that they aren't going anywhere anyway.

[going_home]

I have been saying this for a while now.
Its way way past being juvenile at this point.
I personally havent ever seen an Smart Parts marker I would have
but their tank regs and barrel kits I like.
My opinion....if you want to boycott Smart Parts have at it.
BUT KEEP YOUR HATE TO YOURSELF !

;)

[TnDeathInc]

i dislike them , more and more people dislike them, you will find yourself ina a shrinking minority. It alot like walmart, they have horrible employee practices cut out margins from people selling them their products and work like a modern day mafia, but people will still buy from them because they are cheap.

Maybe take that horsecrap sympahty over to a SP thread and you may get more support.

[wimag]

Honestly, how many people on this site alone think that AGD isn't making the E/X Mag because of SP?
.

Me.
you should also ask the members on any AKA site, and perhaps an ICD site. Better yet ask the guy who funds this site.

[punkncat]

i dislike them , more and more people dislike them, you will find yourself ina a shrinking minority. It alot like walmart, they have horrible employee practices cut out margins from people selling them their products and work like a modern day mafia, but people will still buy from them because they are cheap.

Maybe take that horsecrap sympahty over to a SP thread and you may get more support.

I expect no less from your reply there TN.....I could argue chewing gum flavor and you would find a way to disagree with me and point out how my POV is wrong. Lol

Thats ok though.

How you doing by the way? ;)

[punkncat]

Me.
you should also ask the members on any AKA site, and perhaps an ICD site. Better yet ask the guy who funds this site.


There IS a difference there. AGD was NEVER given a C&D letter. Perhaps the writing was on the wall, but given the sales projections and not to attempt to quote Tom directly, but he stopped simply to avoid the issue altogether on a product that was not selling enough to make the whole thing worthwhile.
I think the niche that was stuck to has worked out pretty well to insure a fairly stable if small portion of the market for some time to come.

AKA had options available to them that many companies chose and have benefited from it. Dye (for one) isn't hurting from paying royalties and working with SP. Standing on a principal sure didn't keep the doors open any longer did it? Nor did legions of rabid AKA supporters help bear any of the legal costs, or fight the good fight to help them with those principals either. A good company is gone simply because they refused to play ball. Was it the "right" thing to do? Eh, well I am not going to argue the ethics of it. But they are no longer in business, or at least not as they were.

ICD is a company I simply do not know what they did. I thought they had signed an agreement with SP and thus their continued production. Didn't they just waste away from lack of intrest?
I would think that the POS Freestyle didn't help them a bit.....just my opinion of it...

[warbeak2099]

The problem is that they weren't just protecting their intellectual property. They were in most cases patenting things that they didn't invent. They got away with it because of the inefficiency and terrible condition of the USPO.

I don't condone this bandwagon bashing, SP makes some decent products. But Bill and Adam Gardner are two of the most sleazy human beings on the planet and there's no reason to put money in their pockets. They conduct business by lying, cheating, and stealing. They already ran the last company they were involved into the ground through fraud, let's just hope they do it with SP and one of the many decent employees they have is able to take over the show. They have a lot of great people working for SP, but I will not support a company run by people like the Gardners. There's nothing wrong with the SP boycott. What is retarded is the bandwagoners who hate SP just for the sake of hating SP.

[mostpeople]

Wheres that thread where tom talked about SP blatantly ripping the lvl 10 adds by AGD?

Regardless of the actual events, it is a well known fact that SP killed the x-mag, and e-mag, and probably AGD's forward progress. And then, as said above, they ripped the features from AGD for $.

On a side note, I applaud people for making art of destroyed SP guns..

[kenndogg]

I agree, it's getting idiotic. I just roll my eyes now when I hear the zombies cry about SP. If SP didn't do it, some other company with big pockets would have. That's business. As for as their product sucking; been through 4 tournies, countless practices and rec games with my ion with no problems. Than again I actually take care of my equipment.

[kenndogg]

The problem is that they weren't just protecting their intellectual property. They were in most cases patenting things that they didn't invent. They got away with it because of the inefficiency and terrible condition of the USPO.

I don't condone this bandwagon bashing, SP makes some decent products. But Bill and Adam Gardner are two of the most sleazy human beings on the planet and there's no reason to put money in their pockets. They conduct business by lying, cheating, and stealing. They already ran the last company they were involved into the ground through fraud, let's just hope they do it with SP and one of the many decent employees they have is able to take over the show. They have a lot of great people working for SP, but I will not support a company run by people like the Gardners. There's nothing wrong with the SP boycott. What is retarded is the bandwagoners who hate SP just for the sake of hating SP.


Honestly you really can't blame SP for that. Maybe the Gardners are sleaze, but in a business since, they did what any smart for profit company would do. They found a loop-hole and exploited it for their gain. This kind of stuff happens all the time, but for some reason the paintball community can't accept it. I have a theory why; paintball was built around honor in it's beginnings. Guys like Tom Kaye, Bud Orr, etc., made gentlemen agreements such as the 13 bps. When the industry exploded and people relized that millions could be made, this left the industry with two groups: Dwindling old school guys like Tom Kaye and business savvy guys like the Gardners. I think Tom Kaye sense of honor hurt AGD more than SP did. In the world of big business you best leave honor at the door.
It worked well for the Gardners.

[Ninjeff]

Whats wrong with holding someones feet to the fire for "questionable" buisness practices?
Whats wrong with missing the "honor" and "gentlemans agreements" of the industry? Whats wrong with thinking that if SP wouldnt have retro-actively patented something they didnt invet, then maybe AGD and AKA and some others wouldnt have withered on the vine?

Why in the world should anyone, including yourself Punk, back down from stating something they believe in?

OK, so you're tired of seeing SP bashing on the interwebs. I understand. The coolest thing about forums though, is they have "headers" on topics that allow you to decide what to read, or not read. :p

[TnDeathInc]

im doing good punkincat, i need to get down ther and see you running and ripping :)

Dont quit on us now :)

[robnix]

Honestly you really can't blame SP for that. Maybe the Gardners are sleaze, but in a business since, they did what any smart for profit company would do. They found a loop-hole and exploited it for their gain.
Call it whatever you want, it's still sleazy and doesn't deserve any respect by insinuating that it's what any "smart for profit" company would do. There are plenty of "smart for profit" companies that operate in an ethical manner to both the industry that they're in and their customers.

Whats wrong with holding someones feet to the fire for "questionable" buisness practices?
Whats wrong with missing the "honor" and "gentlemans agreements" of the industry? Whats wrong with thinking that if SP wouldnt have retro-actively patented something they didnt invet, then maybe AGD and AKA and some others wouldnt have withered on the vine?

Why in the world should anyone, including yourself Punk, back down from stating something they believe in?

OK, so you're tired of seeing SP bashing on the interwebs. I understand. The coolest thing about forums though, is they have "headers" on topics that allow you to decide what to read, or not read.
There's nothing wrong with these things, especially when you have Head Kool-Aid drinker Sean trolling forums with lies and half truths about the past in order to change the perception people have of Smart Parts. If people don't get in there an knock them down a notch, then eventually those lies and half truths will take hold and be the new truth.

[kenndogg]

Call it whatever you want, it's still sleazy and doesn't deserve any respect by insinuating that it's what any "smart for profit" company would do. There are plenty of "smart for profit" companies that operate in an ethical manner to both the industry that they're in and their customers.


true, but as long it as it's legal, it'll keep being done. What that said maybe the problem isn't just SP, but the whole patent process all together.

[punkncat]

Why in the world should anyone, including yourself Punk, back down from stating something they believe in?

OK, so you're tired of seeing SP bashing on the interwebs. I understand. The coolest thing about forums though, is they have "headers" on topics that allow you to decide what to read, or not read. :p


The bolded part outlined and QFT.

I am not by any means saying that anyone should back down from what they believe in. The only real way to do anything at all about the situation would be to find out who ALL the partners in the royalty deals are and not do any manner of business with any of them.

Beyond that, coming on forums and acting like a jackass bashing SP and their products accomplishes absolutely nothing. Well take that back, it contributes web traffic to web sites, some of which and one notable which are profiting from it. Guess which one and as I understand guess who owns or is a partner to it......So in essense, not only is that company profiting from their products, royalties from others products, but from their own bashing in residuals on that paintball "home page". Funny how that wheel goes round.

In the end, there will be a bunch of bitter paintballers who have spent all this time running after their tail and the Gardners and partners are going to be laying back on some tropical island laughing collectively.

[druid]

Well, isn't it the same mentality as those that justify wiping? Or even semantics surrounding it? "well...if he wipes, then I have to......" or "I only do it when _insert moronic justification here_.....

You know, everyone gets down on SP because they took "tradition" and marketed it.

Yet those same people who bash SP for it, do the same thing every time they cheat on the field. So much for traditions.....

I won't profess to know what happened between Tom and SP and really...I don't care. That's something between them and affects me very little.

I know what I like and I know what I hate. I play for the enjoyment of playing and with products that work well for me and that includes AGD and SP products.

SP haters/Tom K sympathizers and SP defenders/AGD emaciators need to stop worrying about 10 year old petty disputes that don't even pertain to them. Most of the people *****ing weren't even out of diapers when it was all going on. They need to shut up and just go play the game.....

[/thread]

[Steelrat]

Didn't read the whole threat, all I have to say is...

Screw Smart Parts.

That is all.

[warbeak2099]

Honestly you really can't blame SP for that. Maybe the Gardners are sleaze, but in a business since, they did what any smart for profit company would do. They found a loop-hole and exploited it for their gain. This kind of stuff happens all the time, but for some reason the paintball community can't accept it. I have a theory why; paintball was built around honor in it's beginnings. Guys like Tom Kaye, Bud Orr, etc., made gentlemen agreements such as the 13 bps. When the industry exploded and people relized that millions could be made, this left the industry with two groups: Dwindling old school guys like Tom Kaye and business savvy guys like the Gardners. I think Tom Kaye sense of honor hurt AGD more than SP did. In the world of big business you best leave honor at the door.
It worked well for the Gardners.

I can and I will hold someone ethically responsible for their actions. If you think ethics don't belong in the business world, I question your understanding of business.

Yes it is annoying when those that don't understand the real issue bash SP. But it's also annoying when people think the Gardners are just smart for doing what they've done. Fraudulent and deceitful is not smart, it's unethical. They are merely opportunists and thieves, not savvy businessmen who can successfully create and market a product.

Anyone who honestly thinks the Gardners are just a great example of running an efficient business needs to gain a better understanding of good business. Ethics and honor certainly do have a part in running a company. Business ethics is an incredibly important and heavily discussed topic in the academic and real world. So if you think the Gardner brothers are simply good business men, you need to check back into the real world because you've been in imagination land far too long.

[wimag]

There IS a difference there. AGD was NEVER given a C&D letter. Perhaps the writing was on the wall, but given the sales projections and not to attempt to quote Tom directly, but he stopped simply to avoid the issue altogether on a product that was not selling enough to make the whole thing worthwhile.
I think the niche that was stuck to has worked out pretty well to insure a fairly stable if small portion of the market for some time to come.

AKA had options available to them that many companies chose and have benefited from it. Dye (for one) isn't hurting from paying royalties and working with SP. Standing on a principal sure didn't keep the doors open any longer did it? Nor did legions of rabid AKA supporters help bear any of the legal costs, or fight the good fight to help them with those principals either. A good company is gone simply because they refused to play ball. Was it the "right" thing to do? Eh, well I am not going to argue the ethics of it. But they are no longer in business, or at least not as they were.

ICD is a company I simply do not know what they did. I thought they had signed an agreement with SP and thus their continued production. Didn't they just waste away from lack of intrest?
I would think that the POS Freestyle didn't help them a bit.....just my opinion of it...

And as you know they went after the smaller manufacturers first. AKA. ICD, AGD.
AGD bailed before the inevitable. C&D or not.
Wow POS freeestyle ?! I liked mine even though I am selling it. Never gave me a bit of trouble. I guess i would have had to buy an Ego to truely understand the quality of sending a great marker in for service.
If you didnt have one personally then you know nothing.

[LK-13]

I for one do not support the Gardeners.
I do not put my money into their pockets.
I have stooped to buying an adjustable Maxflow Reg. equipped HPA bottle,
second hand, so that no money transfers from me to the Gardeners directly.

I wish other companies were still producing adjustable HPA regulators,
but most have gone to pre-set reg.s;
and for the most part people that have adjustable reg.s seem
to be holding on to the gold they know they have.

still,
I do not bash,
I state facts if anyone cares to read them.
I make the choice for me alone.

and as you say, my WALLET is making my will be known.

is this fan boy zealotry?
NO.

this is a consumer exercising their right of choice.
make of that what you may.

[kenndogg]

I can and I will hold someone ethically responsible for their actions. If you think ethics don't belong in the business world, I question your understanding of business.

Yes it is annoying when those that don't understand the real issue bash SP. But it's also annoying when people think the Gardners are just smart for doing what they've done. Fraudulent and deceitful is not smart, it's unethical. They are merely opportunists and thieves, not savvy businessmen who can successfully create and market a product.

Anyone who honestly thinks the Gardners are just a great example of running an efficient business needs to gain a better understanding of good business. Ethics and honor certainly do have a part in running a company. Business ethics is an incredibly important and heavily discussed topic in the academic and real world. So if you think the Gardner brothers are simply good business men, you need to check back into the real world because you've been in imagination land far too long.


but do you think Joe Paintballer knows or even care? Personally I don't and I own both AGD and SP products and both perform well for me. Most paintballers I talk to at the field don't know that forums like this even exist much less know about SP's dealing and could care less.
If SP somehow worms its way to the top of the food chain controls the industry, well good for them. Whatever, I really don't care. I'll still will be playing b/c at the end of the day it's about enjoying the game of paintball. Doesn't really matter what I have in my hand, be it AGD, SP, DYE, etc.

[Spencer]

I dislike smart parts business practices,
I love their shocker
But hate what they did, I like AKA and AGD....

[punkncat]

I guess i would have had to buy an Ego to truely understand the quality of sending a great marker in for service.



Lol, dang!!! That was pretty good. I never actually sent mine in for service, Planet took care of everything for me though. Pretty nice of them...but most certainly point taken.

And as I said just my opinion of the freestyle. Apparently quite a few others as well. Maybe a regional thing, dunno.

[custar]

First, you know posting a thread like you did will accomplish exactly the opposite of what you said you desire, don't you?

custar

[Beemer]

Well you were ok with your post punk til I got towards the end. You need to go edit it.
If I have to explain, will you understand? I can go bold out the part I mean if you dont get it.

This thread will get locked or removed WAY before his does as he did not lay ANY SMACK down on another member of this forum. He WILL get the same RESPECT as YOU. As a matter of fact you just came right out and flamed him. Go fix it QUICK. I feel my pressure rising. :nono: There seems to me to be much double talk in your first post. Did you FORGET you were posting on AO. :argh:

Ahh gee sorry you dont like the bashing. Get over it. Its called Karma. What goes around comes around.

Maghogs thread made me laugh. Your thread with the smack is pissing me off. You are FREE to post your say WITH OUT atacking another member.

[AGD]

Just to make things clear in the midst of all this. We WERE sent a letter by SP "inviting" us to license their technology. This is the precursor to the C&D but legally marks the date you were notified in writing of infringement. If it goes to court, and you loose, you have to pay royalties from that date forward.

No matter what your position is, the paintball community votes with their dollars. Since SP is one of the most successful pb compainies, you must like what they have to say and offer. There is some kind of disconect between what is heard on the net and the success of SP. If I understood that I could make millions in this business.

What is indisputable is that there are fewer products to choose from today than 5 years ago. If your good with that, which many seem to think is ok, then SP bashing would sound pointless. If you had a dream and a goal, which we had in the early nineties, then its important to support the people who will bring those dreams and goals to reality. The good people made paintball happen for all of YOU, now you take it for granted.

I am old school, perhaps out of touch, dead and dying but I remember the dream and the people that sacrificed to make it come true. I am just glad I was part of it back when it meant something because there are no Bud Orr's, Debbie Dion's, Jim Lively's or Ross Alexander's to hang out with today.

AGD

[sandfreestyle]

:hail: :hail: :hail:

Thank you Tom for all your hard work so the rest of us can play a game we love with the guns we love.

[mostpeople]

Tom I am going to ask you a point-blank question so we can get it on record. If you have stated it before please let me know and link me if you can - I am new to the boards so I dont have the memory of such threads if they exist.

What is the reason the X-mag and E-mag were discontinued? Money? Profit Margin? Smart Parts/Patents?

It is talked about quite frequently that the SP letter stopped the electronic automag production so I want to hear it from the source if possible. Thanks.

[teufelhunden]

I'm with Punk. You all in your daily lives give money to companies that do and have done the same thing. Why it's different with Smart Parts is beyond me. You can cry and complain about it all you want, but they're doing something right -- they're one of the few companies that will remain in the "end," most likely.

@AGD: Less guns available (perhaps, I'm not sure how much that is or isn't true but I'll accept it for now), but I bet Smart Parts has played a small role in that. The real problem behind that is because a few years ago, EVERYBODY in paintball was busting butt to get the game on TV because that would lead to explosive popularity which would get the dollars into the industry hand over foot. Well, you don't hear a lot of people trying to get PB on TV anymore. Nobody is circulating the online petitions to ESPN on the subject anymore. Paintball made it to TV and failed big time and did not bring the massive influx of new dollars that everybody had expected. So the growth trend that everybody expect has instead remained stagnant, and if my memory serves me correctly, dollars spent on PB since 05 has been in decline. Less money in the industry = less players = less guns. Not so much SP.

Oh, and SP never forced anybody out. You could play by their rules (which have yet to be rescinded) or not -- a lot of people decided they didn't want to pay licensing, which was a poor business move, which is the problem for most of the paintball types. Fine on the field and fine with some tools, but couldn't tell you an income statement from a balance sheet from a marketing proposal from a good business idea. Unless the SP royalty was absurd (like, a few hundred/unit absurd), it would have made more sense to stay in the game -- with some companies dropping and similar demand for new electros, AGD/whomever could've made up from the loss due to the higher price because of fewer models available, funneling customers to those who remain.

But hey, I'm sure all the martyrs sleep better at night knowing they aren't paying money to those evil people actually making money from the martyrs' game.

[mostpeople]

But hey, I'm sure all the martyrs sleep better at night knowing they aren't paying money to those evil people actually making money from the martyrs' game.

I do

I sleep better knowing I give 0 dollars to smart parts for F'ing over paintball. Now, I will agree with you that it wasn't 100% them, but their actions, and then blatantly ripping off AGD technology afterwards, well that doesn't jive with me.

The fact that you're standing behind them is weird though, I mean you must see what they have done?

[DevilMan]

I do

I sleep better knowing I give 0 dollars to smart parts for F'ing over paintball. Now, I will agree with you that it wasn't 100% them, but their actions, and then blatantly ripping off AGD technology afterwards, well that doesn't jive with me.

The fact that you're standing behind them is weird though, I mean you must see what they have done?

Wasted effort MP.... There is a reason too many are referred to as Sheeple.

DM

To interject my stance on it since this is a thread discussing it. Just because a company makes money from making a product and then goes after all the others out there that pose competition DOES NOT mean that they do it fairly or legitimately. If you step back and look. SP didn't even MAKE MARKERS!!! PARTS is what they made. They rode on the coattails of folks with ideas and ingenuity that put guns together and got them produced. SP just made PARTS for those guns. Up until they got to the point where they copied and made their own and then they climbed the coattails and stabbed their host in the back. If that's cool with you then please make sure and keep my name off of your invite list.

[Beemer]

snip

Ya ok I get what you say. One thing is for sure is you dont know all the facts from the inside and there is much you miss from the outside.

Look here for some help. This link rocks.

http://www.ody.ca/~cwells/history.htm

"1991 Tom Kaye (the inventor of the Automag) and the staff at Air Gun Designs developed the first nitrogen system for paintball along with fiberglass tanks. It was not marketed, as the industry felt high pressure nitrogen was simply too dangerous. Today however, it's hard to find players in large tournaments still running CO2. Tom refused to patent the regulated nitrogen system for the sake of the sport, since he felt it was a superior power source over CO2."

Oh boy guess the DOLLARS wasnt his motive. No I aint the fan boy either. I tell that putz TK how much his stuff sucks all the time. Funny thing is most everything in my bag is AGD except for a Dynaflow and the revies its AAGDATT. All AGD All The Time. Go ahead ask me why, even tho I tell him his stuff sucks. There is more but I digress.

[teufelhunden]

The fact that you're standing behind them is weird though, I mean you must see what they have done?


It's more that I don't care.



Ya ok I get what you say. One thing is for sure is you dont know all the facts from the inside and there is much you miss from the outside.


So all the anti-SP'ers have the inside info? Because if not, the same thing applies to them...


I don't really care about the SP thing [if I play twice a year it's a lot], it's more that people think this is an isolated type of thing. Just like politicians, most companies aren't getting to the top and staying squeaky clean at the same time. So what makes SP different from other industries? Is it because you can avoid Smart Parts because paintball is a pastime and not a necessity? Are paintballers just naggy whiners [we know this to be true, so probably]?

I can even give you guys an example: Starbucks. Independent coffee shops hate Starbucks. A company called Coffee Equipment Company developed and built a machine called the Clover which makes a phenomenal cup of coffee [google it if you care how]. Independent coffee shops discovered the Clover and started making really good cups of coffee, and some of the press about it will have you believe there were lines out the door -- aka, it was great for business. This posed a threat to Starbucks. So, Starbucks bought the Coffee Equipment Company and no longer sells the Clover, and instead you will be seeing them at your neighborhood Starbucks soonish. Now, it's not a patent issue, but it's a similar type of thing: Starbucks used their size and available capital to take away a source of competition and in turn, is harming the little guys. Sound familiar? Do you still drink Starbucks [if you do/can/whatever]? Will you continue to with this knowledge?

[RogueFactor]

Now, it's not a patent issue, but it's a similar type of thing.Starbucks used their size and available capital to take away a source of competition and in turn, is harming the little guys. Sound familiar?
It isnt similar. At all. SP wasnt the biggest guy on the block using their size and capital to do anything of the sort. Rather, they used what many here on AO and in this industry consider to be shady practices for IP that doesnt rightfully(morally or ethically) belong to them. To date, when asked, Smart Parts will not answer if Tippmann or Kingman have signed a licensing agreement...wonder why? Youve already said you dont really care. But I wonder...as they seem to announce everywhere when any company does sign with them. If they havent, why hasnt SP gone after them? All good questions.

If IP litigation wasnt the most expensive form of litigation, those who otherwise couldnt fight would. Its usually a lack of funds, and not the lack of being right, that keep those from fighting IP wars.


Do you still drink Starbucks [if you do/can/whatever]? Will you continue to with this knowledge?
If Starbucks did what Smart Parts did, I would not drink their coffee. I would choose to drink Peet's, or any other viable alternative. If there wasnt an alternative, Id choose another beverage option.

[Beemer]

Hmmm, This thread is getting good dispite the OPs original post. I still expect an edit on it tho

[Beemer]

Doh double post. Here is another killer link.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=161699&highlight=tanks

Nitrogen is our latest project causing the industry to stand up and take notice. In the world of paintball technology there are only three areas that can be improved on: 1) the paintballs, 2) the guns, and 3) the power source. As we all know, the guns have evolved tremendously while the paintballs and the power source have remained virtually unchanged. Nitrogen is our attempt to bring the power source into the twenty-first century. Nitrogen is advantageous because it is stored as compressed gas with no liquid. The disadvantage, and hence the safety issue, is that in order to store enough shots in a small tank the pressure can be as high as 2500 psi. Although these pressures are unfamiliar in the paintball industry, they are being safely used on a daily basis in other industries such as scuba (3000 psi venting into lungs), fire fighting (3000 psi plus high heat and flames), and welding (2500 psi plus explosive gases). Even closer to home are the nitrogen gas springs in hatch back cars that are under thousands of pounds of pressure.

Airgun Designs, Inc. has been a long-time supporter of the IPPA and applauds their efforts to establish safety standards for our industry. We feel that we are acting responsibly in not selling nitrogen systems until the safety questions have been answered. At the time of this writing, there are less than twelve nitrogen systems in existence. One of our systems has recently been tested by AUTHORIZED TESTING INC. a DOT proved testing facility and consultant to the IPPA on safety issues. Page seven of the report states "BASED UPON THE TEST DATA OBTAINED AND DOCUMENTED HEREIN, THE AIRGUN SYSTEM SUBMITTED FOR EVALUATION APPEARS TO BE WELL ENGINEERED AND HAS INHERENT PRESSURE CAPABILITIES WELL IN EXCESS OF THOSE ASSOCIATED WITH NORMAL USE."

[Beemer]

Doh triple post. Ya I did it so what. :argh: Look at the big Pic. Who cares about YOUR safty in the game. One thing I will say, it aint the other guy.

[kenndogg]

I can even give you guys an example: Starbucks. Independent coffee shops hate Starbucks. A company called Coffee Equipment Company developed and built a machine called the Clover which makes a phenomenal cup of coffee [google it if you care how]. Independent coffee shops discovered the Clover and started making really good cups of coffee, and some of the press about it will have you believe there were lines out the door -- aka, it was great for business. This posed a threat to Starbucks. So, Starbucks bought the Coffee Equipment Company and no longer sells the Clover, and instead you will be seeing them at your neighborhood Starbucks soonish. Now, it's not a patent issue, but it's a similar type of thing: Starbucks used their size and available capital to take away a source of competition and in turn, is harming the little guys. Sound familiar? Do you still drink Starbucks [if you do/can/whatever]? Will you continue to with this knowledge?

QTF

[ThePixelGuru]

I don't know why so many people assume that anti-SP folks don't care about this sort of thing in other industries. I'm a firm believer in voting with my wallet - therefore I avoid Starbucks, Wal-Mart and the like when possible. It's like some people think there's a problem with being an informed consumer...

Of course, it also helps that AGD makes better markers than SP, Starbucks' coffee pales in comparison to the local place down the street, and Wal-Mart sells cheap plastic crap. :headbang:

[Ninjeff]

i love it when people "roll thier eyes" at another bunch of people trying to get a company to do the right thing.

Facinating.

No matter how trivial, the lack of paintballers standing up against Smart Parts has allowed them to reign supreme in teh industry now-a-days. Yes its business. But its business practiced in an unethical way. For whatever reason the attitude of "meh...whatever, its just business" has lead to a downturn in the honorable for-fathers of our industry. I dont give a hoot if SP guns shoot player seeking missles that are made of gold and fairy-dust. I would trade 10 Smart Parts for one AGD, a hundred Gardners for one Tom Kaye.
Where is the innovation in teh industry? Well, its lying half conscience of the floor gasping for air because its being choked by the patent-paper work of a "just doing business" attitude.

To date SP has this much of my money:

$0.00

[kenndogg]

i love it when people "roll thier eyes" at another bunch of people trying to get a company to do the right thing.

Facinating.

No matter how trivial, the lack of paintballers standing up against Smart Parts has allowed them to reign supreme in teh industry now-a-days. Yes its business. But its business practiced in an unethical way. For whatever reason the attitude of "meh...whatever, its just business" has lead to a downturn in the honorable for-fathers of our industry. I dont give a hoot if SP guns shoot player seeking missles that are made of gold and fairy-dust. I would trade 10 Smart Parts for one AGD, a hundred Gardners for one Tom Kaye.
Where is the innovation in teh industry? Well, its lying half conscience of the floor gasping for air because its being choked by the patent-paper work of a "just doing business" attitude.

To date SP has this much of my money:

$0.00

As long as it's legal I could care less. If SP wants to take over the industy using these tactics than good for them. People act like SP is the only company who stole/borrowed ideas. Sorry but that is nothing new in paintball. It's a copy cat industry, if something sells you can bet there a few companies lining up their versions.

[sepplainer]

Punk I think...Well if I understand you correctly you are saying that most of the folks on other sites (the Nation) who bash SP only do it because it sounds kwel. If that was your point and you took a long time to get there then I really agree with you.

However I work for a very large public company and I can tell you if I were to try and pull what SP did I would quickly find myself unemployeed and very likely in legal trouble with my employer for harming the stock holders investment and damaging the company's name. In the case of SP you have two fly by night storm door company type guys who run a scam that involves other peoples ideas. They then tell all the companys with less capital then them pay up sucker. While ignoring the companys who can fight and prove them wrong....Unless Tip/King have gone along with the idea that SP invented the electro paintball gun and agreed to pay without anyone finding out.
Ethics is like being gay. You are or you are not.

[punkncat]

Hmmm, This thread is getting good dispite the OPs original post. I still expect an edit on it tho


Edited for your reading pleasure sir.

I was not trying to flame anyone, and did not mean for it to be taken so. However upon reading back on it I could see where it came across that way.

[punkncat]

The whole point of my original post was not so much to try and stand up for SP. I am not trying to garner sympathy for them at all. The point is that personally I have had just about enough of this SP sux, because
a) my buddy says so
b) I read it on the intarwebs
c) cause (I heard) they made "insert name" go out of business
and many other variations on the theme.

I really wonder about this whole ethics thing eveyone is standing on. I mean, do y'all go our of your way to investigate EVERY product from every company to make sure they are planting trees and petting kittens, leaving the whole world with a fuzzy feeling? Or is it just paintball companies that you expected were going to always leave everything free and for the good of paintball? In spite of corporate involvement and reducing market share?
Is there ANY other business model that follows this ideal? Not being smart, I am serious. What other industry that brings in millions of dollars a year offers all their technology for free to anyone? No licensing, free to use and build upon any idea that anyone designed?
Who in todays world is nieve enough to develop a product and not protect themselves and their investment in R & D by using a patent or copyright?

I am glad that paintball WAS that way at some point, and that this gentleman's agreement stood for so long. It is amazing that it did last as long as it did. There was no question though that at some point, as more people became involved that it was in inevitable result.

So anyway, now that I have driven around the mountain.....we can all :cuss: all we want. There is a following of e-cool anti SP fanbois who love to jump on board. As I have said and many people smarter than myself have said, all the bashing in the world certainly hasn't changed anything. They are still a mogul and apparently in it for.... well in it to squeeze out every last drop they can.....

[devildog]

I've posted it before, here it is again. I actually like smart parts.

[robertsr1811]

I didn't buy Hybrid parts either, and was one of the ones that reported them to Eidos for trademark enfringment over their "contract killer" grips that were a blatant rip-off of a trademarked likeness. Got some very angry mail from people who couldn't spell very well over that one...

There are plenty of us who give a crap about kind of company we buy from. SP isn't the only company that gets all of my scorn and none of my cash.

[Ratt]

I am no fan boi, by any means. I do not follow internet 'fads', and I do not jump on bandwagons for the sake of doing so. I do, though, stand up for what I believe in. And if I believe in something strong enough, I will not change my mind or my ways.

With that being said...

This is how much of my money I have given to SP: $0.00
This is how much of my money I will ever give SP: $0.00

There is nothing anyone can say that will convince me that the Garners are not shady businessmen, driven by greed. Their actions have driven people out of business.

I am pretty passionate about few things, and paintball is one of them. And when it comes to paintball, there are two mantras that I have always lived by, and always will live by:

"Quality always shoots straight", and...


"FSP"

[Anjin3515]

When I got into paintball I had no idea of the saga of SP and AGD and all that.
But after reading about it, and doing as much research as I could about it, I came to my own conclusion that I don't like the way SP does business. From there I have, and continue to vote with my wallet. I simply don't buy their products.
Does this make a dent in them...no, not at all. Do I expect my own personal boycott of SP to do anything to them, nope. But it makes me feel better about the money I spend on paintball.

[magmonkey]

The whole point of my original post was not so much to try and stand up for SP. I am not trying to garner sympathy for them at all. The point is that personally I have had just about enough of this SP sux, because
a) my buddy says so
b) I read it on the intarwebs
c) cause (I heard) they made "insert name" go out of business
and many other variations on the theme
.how about D) I watched a bunch of people in this industry that I call friends get screwed over
or E) this whole thing ripped a dream away from my leaving myself and my ex bussiness partner twisting in the wind with no work coming in and a huge debt

So anyway, now that I have driven around the mountain.....we can all :cuss: all we want. There is a following of e-cool anti SP fanbois who love to jump on board. As I have said and many people smarter than myself have said, all the bashing in the world certainly hasn't changed anything. They are still a mogul and apparently in it for.... well in it to squeeze out every last drop they can.....

don't think that we are all doing it for "e cool points"
you can talk all you want about fanbois and band wagons, I do not make public statements hating on smartparts because it is the cool thing to do. I do it because I truley HATE them for what they have done. the gardner brothers are one step away from having cloven hooves and tails.

if one person who reads my posts and think twice about sending there cash to smartparts, then I am a happy guy.

[B-Pow]

I do not like smart parts.

I have had "polite discorse" (in quotes because it is still on the interwebs) on pbN with Sean (their most recent pbN public face). I don't like the choices they have made, the claims in their advertising, and the attitudes they perpuitate.

I can point to the things that disturb me that are in their adds right now. And that I believe they are continuing the spread of players that are killing the sport. Ads that contain text like "Own one before it PWNS you", "8 out of 9 world champions use shockers", "This is no longer a sport of honor (from their CGI tv ads that aired during the smart parts world championship last year on ESPN2)". They are continuing the belief that you can buy skill, and that the game isn't about having a good time it's about lighting up fools.

The thing that gets me the most unsetteld about the company is it's decision to not disclose exactally what it does. I've told Sean flat out, I would consider giving their products another chance if they were honest to their consumer base and told us what was going on. We do infact live in an age of information, and I don't even have the slightest clue (for sure) how the fees are accessed for the electro patent. I know it's their perogitive to hide that information, but I don't approve of cloak and dagger action and it's almost impossible to hide what you are doing these days....just how you are doing it. My request did not even get lip service, and that bothered me. I just want information and until I get it, I will continue to vote away from them with my money.

After all of that I still don't really like how their markers feel. But I do have an ion that I got second hand and I use as a loaner.

My reasons are my own, and the patent wars are only a small part of it. I am not a sheeple, I have looked, thought, and decided for myself why I do not like them and I can show why with solid proof, not just he said she said crap.

I also like to think I do not "look down" on SP users, I just don't want to go down that path myself.

[teufelhunden]

It isnt similar. At all. SP wasnt the biggest guy on the block using their size and capital to do anything of the sort. Rather, they used what many here on AO and in this industry consider to be shady practices for IP that doesnt rightfully(morally or ethically) belong to them. To date, when asked, Smart Parts will not answer if Tippmann or Kingman have signed a licensing agreement...wonder why? Youve already said you dont really care. But I wonder...as they seem to announce everywhere when any company does sign with them. If they havent, why hasnt SP gone after them? All good questions.

If IP litigation wasnt the most expensive form of litigation, those who otherwise couldnt fight would. Its usually a lack of funds, and not the lack of being right, that keep those from fighting IP wars.


If Starbucks did what Smart Parts did, I would not drink their coffee. I would choose to drink Peet's, or any other viable alternative. If there wasnt an alternative, Id choose another beverage option.


It is similar, because as you will remember, SP wasn't litigating anything when it was 1999. They waited a few years until they were large enough to afford a protracted IP battle. Who knows about Tippmann or Kingman, we don't.

IP litigation is the most expensive because there is the most to gain from a positive judgment, hence why those involved fight it from every conceivable angle to make it the most expensive.


I don't know why so many people assume that anti-SP folks don't care about this sort of thing in other industries. I'm a firm believer in voting with my wallet - therefore I avoid Starbucks, Wal-Mart and the like when possible. It's like some people think there's a problem with being an informed consumer...

Of course, it also helps that AGD makes better markers than SP, Starbucks' coffee pales in comparison to the local place down the street, and Wal-Mart sells cheap plastic crap. :headbang:


There is no problem, but unless you stick exclusively with mom-and-pop stores whose owners you know intimately, you will not be able to know with certainty about any skeletons in the closets. So if you're going to vet companies A, B, and C before using their products, why not D, E, and F?


i love it when people "roll thier eyes" at another bunch of people trying to get a company to do the right thing.

Facinating.

No matter how trivial, the lack of paintballers standing up against Smart Parts has allowed them to reign supreme in teh industry now-a-days. Yes its business. But its business practiced in an unethical way. For whatever reason the attitude of "meh...whatever, its just business" has lead to a downturn in the honorable for-fathers of our industry. I dont give a hoot if SP guns shoot player seeking missles that are made of gold and fairy-dust. I would trade 10 Smart Parts for one AGD, a hundred Gardners for one Tom Kaye.
Where is the innovation in teh industry? Well, its lying half conscience of the floor gasping for air because its being choked by the patent-paper work of a "just doing business" attitude.

To date SP has this much of my money:

$0.00

It's fascinating (get firefox) that you've missed the reason for the argument; namely, most people don't have any idea why they hate SP, but they just do because that's what others do.

I tend to think you don't have any background or education in business ethics as it's never as cut and dry as you think. While you may see it as unethical, is it unethical from the POV of someone working for SP, who was hired because the firm was growing? Etc.


As long as it's legal I could care less. If SP wants to take over the industy using these tactics than good for them. People act like SP is the only company who stole/borrowed ideas. Sorry but that is nothing new in paintball. It's a copy cat industry, if something sells you can bet there a few companies lining up their versions.


As I recall, this entire forum was fairly sad and nostalgic for the Autococker, which was a "borrowed" design from Palmer...



Will respond to the rest later, as time permits.

[Boy_Wonder]

No matter how trivial, the lack of paintballers standing up against Smart Parts has allowed them to reign supreme in teh industry now-a-days. Yes its business. But its business practiced in an unethical way. For whatever reason the attitude of "meh...whatever, its just business" has lead to a downturn in the honorable for-fathers of our industry. I dont give a hoot if SP guns shoot player seeking missles that are made of gold and fairy-dust. I would trade 10 Smart Parts for one AGD, a hundred Gardners for one Tom Kaye.



Love it.

[robnix]

I can even give you guys an example: Starbucks. Independent coffee shops hate Starbucks. A company called Coffee Equipment Company developed and built a machine called the Clover which makes a phenomenal cup of coffee [google it if you care how]. Independent coffee shops discovered the Clover and started making really good cups of coffee, and some of the press about it will have you believe there were lines out the door -- aka, it was great for business. This posed a threat to Starbucks. So, Starbucks bought the Coffee Equipment Company and no longer sells the Clover, and instead you will be seeing them at your neighborhood Starbucks soonish. Now, it's not a patent issue, but it's a similar type of thing: Starbucks used their size and available capital to take away a source of competition and in turn, is harming the little guys. Sound familiar? Do you still drink Starbucks [if you do/can/whatever]? Will you continue to with this knowledge?
It's not the same, and you're mad at the wrong company. Noone forced CEC to sell to Starbucks, that was their decision. And no, I don't drink Starbucks, they've been over roasting their coffee for years.

[93civiccpe]

As long as it's legal I could care less. If SP wants to take over the industy using these tactics than good for them. People act like SP is the only company who stole/borrowed ideas. Sorry but that is nothing new in paintball. It's a copy cat industry, if something sells you can bet there a few companies lining up their versions.


I guess mom was wrong then.. and two wrongs do make a right. Your logic is terrible.. it's the same mentality that has allowed the tourney scene to view wiping as a "skill" as long as you don't get caught. Because if one team is cheating and getting away with it we might as well all cheat.. right?? right?? It's that mentality that is killing the sport I have loved for so long.. and I will continue to speak out against it in hope that one day things might return to the better days of old.

[steve_81]

Just to make things clear in the midst of all this. We WERE sent a letter by SP "inviting" us to license their technology. This is the precursor to the C&D but legally marks the date you were notified in writing of infringement. If it goes to court, and you loose, you have to pay royalties from that date forward.

No matter what your position is, the paintball community votes with their dollars. Since SP is one of the most successful pb compainies, you must like what they have to say and offer. There is some kind of disconect between what is heard on the net and the success of SP. If I understood that I could make millions in this business.

What is indisputable is that there are fewer products to choose from today than 5 years ago. If your good with that, which many seem to think is ok, then SP bashing would sound pointless. If you had a dream and a goal, which we had in the early nineties, then its important to support the people who will bring those dreams and goals to reality. The good people made paintball happen for all of YOU, now you take it for granted.

I am old school, perhaps out of touch, dead and dying but I remember the dream and the people that sacrificed to make it come true. I am just glad I was part of it back when it meant something because there are no Bud Orr's, Debbie Dion's, Jim Lively's or Ross Alexander's to hang out with today.

AGD

I agree completely. I entered into this sport in 1996 and boy has it changed. I really miss the way it used to be.

To me the sport was ruined when the SP Ion came onto the market. Which brought the high ROF to the masses. Closing the gap that separated the people whom could afford high end markers and those who could not. That to me is when Paintball started taking a nose dive. People can argue that when the Ion came out it helped make the sport grow, which is true but it also brought a plague of younger cocky players that really have no respect for the sport along with it. Leaving the older generation of paintballers in the dust.

I remember playing just to play and have fun. Now if you go to a field and don't have a $700+ marker (or a marker that the pros use) or even if you aren't wearing a set of matching Jersey & pants your a noob.

Paintball started in the woods and needs to stay in the woods.

[warbeak2099]

Anyways, people crying about other people choosing not to support SP is even more annoying than uninformed people who bash SP.

[mostpeople]

Anyways, people crying about other people choosing not to support SP is even more annoying than uninformed people who bash SP.


For us informed people bashing SP we have no problem with the uninformed people bashing SP, it just helps our cause. For anyone who doesn't give a crap about what SP did, that means you are complacent with it, which is in my book just as bad as being part of it. For people who are educated on the issue and still own and shoot SP guns on the field, well I find that I have little respect for most of those people. For people are uneducated about it, I find that educating them really opens their eyes and they don't want to support them anymore. Talk to any paintball shop owner about how SP screws them over, its awesome because its pretty much universal. My local pro-shop hates SP, but its a necessary evil for him.. so you being complacent with their gouging, is actually hurting his profit indirectly, do you see that? Ideally we could get a boycott on SP - but alas it would NEVER happen.

And for the record, I don't really give a crap about what anyone thinks of me - and I certainly don't knock SP for 'e-cool' points as you call it. I am cool enough as it is, don't need to bash SP to be cooler.


Although it does help :rofl:

[punkncat]

Anyways, people crying about other people choosing not to support SP is even more annoying than uninformed people who bash SP.

Huh?

I certainly hope you do not think that applies to me.....not sure what it applies to. I am not saying that ANYONE should support SP OR any of their partners.

[Old School 626]

RE: SP, I vote with my $$.

Freedom of speech must endure to include all ideology, not just the ideology you are aligned with in order for it to be absolutely *free* speech.

[Old School 626]

I agree completely. I entered into this sport in 1996 and boy has it changed. I really miss the way it used to be.

To me the sport was ruined when the SP Ion came onto the market. Which brought the high ROF to the masses. Closing the gap that separated the people whom could afford high end markers and those who could not. That to me is when Paintball started taking a nose dive. People can argue that when the Ion came out it helped make the sport grow, which is true but it also brought a plague of younger cocky players that really have no respect for the sport along with it. Leaving the older generation of paintballers in the dust.

I remember playing just to play and have fun. Now if you go to a field and don't have a $700+ marker (or a marker that the pros use) or even if you aren't wearing a set of matching Jersey & pants your a noob.

Paintball started in the woods and needs to stay in the woods.


Steve_81,

I started playing in the late 80's and quit for a number of years for very similar reasons to yours. So similar in fact that you can take your statement and erase the ION and put in the Automag and Autococker. Paintball changed into a trigger tugging competition and it will change again, of that you can be certain.

[cyberave68]

Too bad we dont have sigs here anymore. This is would what i would have....



I would trade 10 Smart Parts for one AGD, a hundred Gardners for one Tom Kaye.

[warbeak2099]

Huh?

I certainly hope you do not think that applies to me.....not sure what it applies to. I am not saying that ANYONE should support SP OR any of their partners.

What are you saying then? Informed people who intelligently choose not to support SP and to intelligently debate against SP are certainly not being out of control or unreasonable. Are you merely arguing against bandwagon haters?

The fact is, there are many reasons why people should be angry with SP. Saying that we should all forget it, it's just good business, is idiotic and ignorant of the facts.

[ThePixelGuru]

As long as it's legal I could care less. If SP wants to take over the industy using these tactics than good for them. People act like SP is the only company who stole/borrowed ideas. Sorry but that is nothing new in paintball. It's a copy cat industry, if something sells you can bet there a few companies lining up their versions.
Aha, the "if it's legal it's ethical" argument, I've come across this one before. Slavery was legal, and women couldn't vote - if everything legal was just fine, then why did these change? Hell, why did we ever make new laws in the first place?


I really wonder about this whole ethics thing eveyone is standing on. I mean, do y'all go our of your way to investigate EVERY product from every company to make sure they are planting trees and petting kittens, leaving the whole world with a fuzzy feeling? Or is it just paintball companies that you expected were going to always leave everything free and for the good of paintball? In spite of corporate involvement and reducing market share?
Is there ANY other business model that follows this ideal? Not being smart, I am serious. What other industry that brings in millions of dollars a year offers all their technology for free to anyone? No licensing, free to use and build upon any idea that anyone designed?
Who in todays world is nieve enough to develop a product and not protect themselves and their investment in R & D by using a patent or copyright?
I try my best to be an informed consumer whether I buy paintball gear or a cup of coffee - yes, I buy fair trade coffee whenever I can, but no, I don't spend hours researching a company before buying that cup.

As for the second part, the difference between, say, Microsoft selling licenses to use Windows and Smart Parts selling licenses to make electronic markers is that Microsoft actually invented and designed Windows. ;)


There is no problem, but unless you stick exclusively with mom-and-pop stores whose owners you know intimately, you will not be able to know with certainty about any skeletons in the closets. So if you're going to vet companies A, B, and C before using their products, why not D, E, and F?
I did say "when possible." There are times when I hit Wal-Mart because I've got a headache and don't know when the next pharmacy is coming up, or when I buy Smart Parts wood grips because there aren't others available. But saying that I should just go ahead and support soulless, thieving corporations just because I don't know everything about every other business is just silly. There are four burners on your stove and you have to touch one of them: if one's hot, one's cold, and you don't know about the other two, do you burn your hand on the hot one because you don't know about the last two?



Bottom line here is that, yes, bandwagon SP haters are annoying, but there are plenty of equally annoying bandwagon SP lovers, too. There are uninformed people everywhere spewing their opinions where they don't belong, but please don't get them confused with those of us who actually have a reason to dislike SP (et al).

[RogueFactor]

As for the second part, the difference between, say, Microsoft selling licenses to use Windows and Smart Parts selling licenses to make electronic markers is that Microsoft actually invented and designed Windows. ;)

While thats the prevailing belief, its not factual. Microsoft didnt 'invent' Windows per se, it was an improvement upon MS-DOS, which was an improvement upon PC-DOS, which was an improvement upon 86-DOS which was created/invented by Seattle Computer Products. So Microsoft really just bought the IP, they didnt invent it. I guess it could be argued that they have since improved upon it.

There are more similarities between Microsoft & Smart Parts than with Starbucks.

Rather than paraphrase the history, Ive bolded the pertinent parts

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS


In late 1980, IBM was developing what would become the original IBM Personal Computer. CP/M was by far the most popular operating system in use at the time, and IBM felt it needed CP/M in order to compete. IBM's representatives visited Digital Research and discussed licensing with DRI's licensing representative, Dorothy McEwen Kildall, who hesitated to sign IBM's non-disclosure agreement. Although the NDA was later accepted, DRI would not accept IBM's proposal of $250,000 in exchange for as many copies as IBM could sell, insisting on the usual royalty-based plan.[1] In later discussions between IBM and Bill Gates, Gates mentioned the existence of 86-DOS and IBM representative Jack Sams told him to get a license for it.
Creation of PC-DOS

Microsoft purchased a nonexclusive license for 86-DOS from Seattle Computer Products in December 1980 for $25,000. In May 1981, it hired Tim Paterson to port the system to the IBM-PC, which used the slower and less expensive Intel 8088 processor and had its own specific family of peripherals. IBM watched the developments daily, submitted over 300 change requests before accepting the product and wrote the user manual for it.

In July 1981, a month before the PC's release, Microsoft purchased all rights to 86-DOS from SCP for $50,000. It met IBM's main criteria: it looked like CP/M, and it was easy to adapt existing 8-bit CP/M programs to run under it, notably thanks to the TRANS command which would translate source files from 8080 to 8086 machine instructions. Microsoft licensed 86-DOS to IBM, and it became PC-DOS 1.0. This license also permitted Microsoft to sell DOS to other companies, which it did. The deal was spectacularly successful, and SCP later claimed in court that Microsoft had concealed its relationship with IBM in order to purchase the operating system cheaply. SCP ultimately received a 1 million dollar settlement payment.

When DRI founder Gary Kildall examined PC-DOS and found that it duplicated CP/M's programming interface, he wanted to sue IBM, which at the time claimed that PC-DOS was its own product. However, Digital Research's attorney did not believe that the relevant law was clear enough to sue (he now believes that later legal developments would have made this easier). Nonetheless, Kildall confronted IBM and persuaded them to offer CP/M-86 with the PC in exchange for a release of liability.

Controversy has continued to surround the similarity between the two systems.

Its often that most people dont know all the facts. They base much of their opinions on what they hear from others they agree with because they either dont care to know all the facts or its what they want to believe. This frequently happens in the business world, including paintball forums:spit_take

[Spider-TW]

And no, I don't drink Starbucks, they've been over roasting their coffee for years.For sure. I also doubt that they will keep a better cup of coffee off the market.

Also, mostpeople, Tom mentioned royalties in a thread (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=228901) about a month back. From that, I would say, yes, sp royalties have something to do with the lack of emags and xmags on the market.

I remember when sp mostly made barrels. I think some people at sp have good ideas sometimes. But I usually don't find the result equal to the hype. As long as they run hype, they are a target for bashing.

I think you are looking at the disconnect between the internet opinion of sp and their sales...internet literacy. For the number of people that have it, few seem to read boring stuff like forums where information is present. It seems pretty common to have a paintball team of 30 to 40 players and only half will communicate via email or forum and even fewer will look beyond the first few posts.

Old school, new school, haters, bashers, and sp fans, if you have read this far, you are a minority.

[mostpeople]

For sure. I also doubt that they will keep a better cup of coffee off the market.

Also, mostpeople, Tom mentioned royalties in a thread (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=228901) about a month back. From that, I would say, yes, sp royalties have something to do with the lack of emags and xmags on the market.

I remember when sp mostly made barrels. I think some people at sp have good ideas sometimes. But I usually don't find the result equal to the hype. As long as they run hype, they are a target for bashing.

I think you are looking at the disconnect between the internet opinion of sp and their sales...internet literacy. For the number of people that have it, few seem to read boring stuff like forums where information is present. It seems pretty common to have a paintball team of 30 to 40 players and only half will communicate via email or forum and even fewer will look beyond the first few posts.

Old school, new school, haters, bashers, and sp fans, if you have read this far, you are a minority.

thanks!

Further proof that SP helped to end the X-mag? Are you ok with that punkncat?

[Ninjeff]

Too bad we dont have sigs here anymore. This is would what i would have....


;)

[Ninjeff]

It's fascinating (get firefox) that you've missed the reason for the argument; namely, most people don't have any idea why they hate SP, but they just do because that's what others do.

I tend to think you don't have any background or education in business ethics as it's never as cut and dry as you think. While you may see it as unethical, is it unethical from the POV of someone working for SP, who was hired because the firm was growing? Etc.




I have firefox. It was late when i posted that, so im sorry if my slightly "off" spelling hurt your eyes. Forgive me for trying to crank out a cohesive post just minutes before my eyes were sealed shut for the night. I cared little for "spelling b" points and more for the thoughts rolling around in my tired head.

Still, to address the part of post that deals with ethics, it was my understanding that SP got the electro patent through a "loop hole" in patent law. They way i was explained it, the took something they did NOT invent, noticed it wasnt patented, and amended a previous and unrelated patent of there own to make an electro patent "retro-active" allowing them to by-pass most marketed examples of "prior art" (the guns that were all selling on the market at that time) therefore allowing SP to lay claim to license fees for something they didnt come up with.

Now, maybe ive miss-read when doing research on the subject, but if indeed, they were granted a patent by way of attaching it to another, older patent allowing them to run people out of the business of paintball....well....i find that disgusting and deplorable. Do i have an education in business ethics? No, sorry i do not. Im but a simple musician. Still, i know i dont like SP because i dont like how they run their business. I can avoid them, so i do. To date, i have NOT purchased a SINGLE marker made by either SP, or a company that gives SP money to license their "patented" electro-technology, (i say that as we still dont know what the status is w/ Kingman and Tippmann)
I have owned:
Tippmann Carbine, 98, A5, Kingman Spyder, AGD: Classic, Classic, E-Mag, ULE Mag, and now a Pneumag, a Tacamo t68orsomething that i won and sold, and two WGP 04 Prostocks. Mech, of course, and an Ariakon ACP.


At this stage of the game, what is done is done as far as SP running people out of the electro corner of the market. Its been years since the initial lawsuits and C&D letters. Part of me WANTS to think that SP has learned they arent as sly as they would think and have learned from previous battles. The problem is that i read threads like the SP one on PbN where they parade a tech out, who, though he seems like a good guy, makes crazy un-substantiated claims like "the Shocker 4x4 shot farther that gun-x because of awesome SP tech that doesnt jive with physics. I dont really like thier ads and slogans either. PWN this, win that......meh, just isnt my gig.I dont like the idea of making kids think its ok to PWN noobs.
Still, i dont run around screaming my dis-like of SP from the hill tops. The only reason i spoke up in THIS thread is because i found it FASCINATING that some people justify shady practices with the idea that "every one else is doing it...."

[djeto]

So...what brand of bananas does everyone buy?

Certainly not those blood soaked Chiquita bananas.

Shady business, insert "or shady anything", is inherent in human nature.

Yes the ideal should be "Do as I do.," and not "Do as I say, and not as I do."

But it is always comforting to know there are still people always willing to stand for the good fight, be it the "right" or "wrong" side of the line.

[ThePixelGuru]

While thats the prevailing belief, its not factual. Microsoft didnt 'invent' Windows per se, it was an improvement upon MS-DOS, which was an improvement upon PC-DOS, which was an improvement upon 86-DOS which was created/invented by Seattle Computer Products. So Microsoft really just bought the IP, they didnt invent it. I guess it could be argued that they have since improved upon it.

There are more similarities between Microsoft & Smart Parts than with Starbucks.

Rather than paraphrase the history, Ive bolded the pertinent parts

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS



Its often that most people dont know all the facts. They base much of their opinions on what they hear from others they agree with because they either dont care to know all the facts or its what they want to believe. This frequently happens in the business world, including paintball forums:spit_take
I thought someone might bring this up, should have figured it would be you. It'd be a real stretch to say that going from DOS to Vista wasn't anything that MS deserves any money for. I was mostly referring to the GUI, and how Microsoft did actually develop and program Windows (if I'm correct, Windows XP and later aren't even truly DOS-based, but rather emulate a DOS prompt). Granted, they ripped off Apple, and Apple ripped off Xerox, but all those companies sure as hell put more effort into making a GUI than SP did in patenting a microswitch in paintball. Any idiot can slap a microswitch behind a trigger, but I'd like to see you take DOS and turn it into Vista.

I know it's not a perfect analogy, but it's what fit best (and the direction the conversation was already taking) so I went with it. I'm an Apple guy, and I know full well the shady stuff MS has done. Still, thanks for assuming once more that I don't know my facts. If it helps, you can replace "Windows" with "OS X" and "MS" with "Apple." My point still stands, because it was about paintball and not Silicon Valley. In fact, we're actually on the same side of the SP argument here; my guess is that you just want to nitpick because you're butthurt from our past interactions. :spit_take

[Ninjeff]

I thought someone might bring this up, should have figured it would be you. It'd be a real stretch to say that going from DOS to Vista wasn't anything that MS deserves any money for. I was mostly referring to the GUI, and how Microsoft did actually develop and program Windows (if I'm correct, Windows XP and later aren't even truly DOS-based, but rather emulate a DOS prompt). Granted, they ripped off Apple, and Apple ripped off Xerox, but all those companies sure as hell put more effort into making a GUI than SP did in patenting a microswitch in paintball. Any idiot can slap a microswitch behind a trigger, but I'd like to see you take DOS and turn it into Vista.

I know it's not a perfect analogy, but it's what fit best (and the direction the conversation was already taking) so I went with it. I'm an Apple guy, and I know full well the shady stuff MS has done. Still, thanks for assuming once more that I don't know my facts. If it helps, you can replace "Windows" with "OS X" and "MS" with "Apple." My point still stands, because it was about paintball and not Silicon Valley. In fact, we're actually on the same side of the SP argument here; my guess is that you just want to nitpick because you're butthurt from our past interactions. :spit_take


im excited because i feel like this will be an educational argument between Pixel and Rogue.

Goody goody something interesting to read tonight! :clap:

[RogueFactor]

I thought someone might bring this up, should have figured it would be you. It'd be a real stretch to say that going from DOS to Vista wasn't anything that MS deserves any money for. I was mostly referring to the GUI, and how Microsoft did actually develop and program Windows (if I'm correct, Windows XP and later aren't even truly DOS-based, but rather emulate a DOS prompt). Granted, they ripped off Apple, and Apple ripped off Xerox, but all those companies sure as hell put more effort into making a GUI than SP did in patenting a microswitch in paintball. Any idiot can slap a microswitch behind a trigger, but I'd like to see you take DOS and turn it into Vista.

I know it's not a perfect analogy, but it's what fit best (and the direction the conversation was already taking) so I went with it. I'm an Apple guy, and I know full well the shady stuff MS has done. Still, thanks for assuming once more that I don't know my facts. If it helps, you can replace "Windows" with "OS X" and "MS" with "Apple." My point still stands, because it was about paintball and not Silicon Valley. In fact, we're actually on the same side of the SP argument here; my guess is that you just want to nitpick because you're butthurt from our past interactions. :spit_take
You said Microsoft invented and designed Windows, and that was the difference between MS & SP. When in fact, they purchased the IP that was developed into Windows.

By your logic, it would be a real stretch to say that going from the PVI Shocker to the current Shocker wasnt anything that SP doesnt deserve money for. It was further developed by SP. So there is no need to nitpick, your analogy does not fit best.

Smart Parts didnt patent or invent the original Shocker.Pneuventures Inc(PVI) did. MS didnt invent the original OS system that was paramount to their success. SCP did. You said there is a difference between Microsoft and SP. I make the opposite assertion...there is more similarities than differences.

LOL. Butthurt. That made my day knowing where it came from :D

[JesseB]

are you serious? There is no way that Smart Parts did anything to "Protect their interests" They did it to screw over the competition so they would be the only game in town. If they hadn't patented the damn electronic gun then their only competition wouldn't be from the UK and Australia and we would have better guns and equipment to show for it at reasonable prices because they would all be competing in a fair market.


Screw Smart Parts, the pos Ion, The recycled aluminum shocker, the crappy maxflow, and every other piece of junk they make. There is not one arguement that you can make for Smart Part's sake everything in their line is garbage but they effectively tied the hands of every other marker manufacturer because they are punks.


Keep Smart Parts lovers in their owners groups

[cyberave68]

are you serious? There is no way that Smart Parts did anything to "Protect their interests" They did it to screw over the competition so they would be the only game in town. If they hadn't patented the damn electronic gun then their only competition wouldn't be from the UK and Australia and we would have better guns and equipment to show for it at reasonable prices because they would all be competing in a fair market.


Screw Smart Parts, the pos Ion, The recycled aluminum shocker, the crappy maxflow, and every other piece of junk they make. There is not one arguement that you can make for Smart Part's sake everything in their line is garbage but they effectively tied the hands of every other marker manufacturer because they are punks.


Keep Smart Parts lovers in their owners groups
Well said...!!!! :clap: :cheers:

[TnDeathInc]

Well said...!!!! :clap: :cheers:


agree!

[ThePixelGuru]

You said Microsoft invented and designed Windows, and that was the difference between MS & SP. When in fact, they purchased the IP that was developed into Windows.

By your logic, it would be a real stretch to say that going from the PVI Shocker to the current Shocker wasnt anything that SP doesnt deserve money for. It was further developed by SP. So there is no need to nitpick, your analogy does not fit best.

Smart Parts didnt patent or invent the original Shocker.Pneuventures Inc(PVI) did. MS didnt invent the original OS system that was paramount to their success. SCP did. You said there is a difference between Microsoft and SP. I make the opposite assertion...there is more similarities than differences.

LOL. Butthurt. That made my day knowing where it came from :D
I'm not saying Smart Parts doesn't deserve money for improving and marketing a paintball marker, they just don't deserve money for everyone else doing it. That'd be like Microsoft demanding royalties for the privilege of making a GUI. Of course, you provided evidence of another difference between Microsoft and Smart Parts: Microsoft bought their intellectual property while Smart Parts *ahem* appropriated it.

Regardless, Microsoft isn't the point of this thread, and I've already admitted it wasn't a perfect analogy. Let's get on with this Smart Parts thing instead of bickering about Silicon Valley.

[Ninjeff]

I......... Let's get on with this Smart Parts thing instead of bickering about Silicon Valley.

hey now, no need to drag Pam Anderson into this..... :p

[kenndogg]

Aha, the "if it's legal it's ethical" argument, I've come across this one before. Slavery was legal, and women couldn't vote - if everything legal was just fine, then why did these change? Hell, why did we ever make new laws in the first place?


Wow you're comparing human rights with business ethics/intellectual property? Slavery and women's right are on a completely different scale.
Let me ask you something do you every shop at any big box stores? If your moral character is as high as you pretend it is, than for your sake I hope you don't. While you're at it I hope you don't buy Nikes, Reebok or anything made overseas in sweat shops.

[Nick E]

I frankly try to avoid any company that I find to have unethical or stupid practices. I don't drink starbucks, I don't wear nikes/rebook's/whatever stupid overpriced crap that's made in china by 5 year olds, and I don't buy SP products. Bash them on the internet? I don't get that into it. But I certainly don't like them, and don't support them.

P.S. MercenaryComando from PbN has got to stop posting all these crappy "SP blah blah" threads in the AGD section. :cry: It's making everyone look like whiny retards.

[robnix]

P.S. MercenaryComando from PbN has got to stop posting all these crappy "SP blah blah" threads in the AGD section. :cry: It's making everyone look like whiny retards.
I know he means well, but you're not kidding. AFAIC, what he does is the reason for this thread.

[ThePixelGuru]

Wow you're comparing human rights with business ethics/intellectual property? Slavery and women's right are on a completely different scale.
Let me ask you something do you every shop at any big box stores? If your moral character is as high as you pretend it is, than for your sake I hope you don't. While you're at it I hope you don't buy Nikes, Reebok or anything made overseas in sweat shops.
It's an analogy: you said if it was legal no one should care, and I'm just pointing out that just because something's legal doesn't mean it's alright. Law should not be mistaken for morality; sometimes the two coincide, but that isn't always the case.

And not that it matters, but all the shoes I wear are American made.

[kenndogg]

It's an analogy: you said if it was legal no one should care, and I'm just pointing out that just because something's legal doesn't mean it's alright. Law should not be mistaken for morality; sometimes the two coincide, but that isn't always the case.

which brings it back to my earlier post, as long as it's legal it'll happen again and again. I never said no one should care; although I personally really don't as I speak for myself only. The problem is more than just SP.



I guess mom was wrong then.. and two wrongs do make a right. Your logic is terrible.. it's the same mentality that has allowed the tourney scene to view wiping as a "skill" as long as you don't get caught. Because if one team is cheating and getting away with it we might as well all cheat.. right?? right?? It's that mentality that is killing the sport I have loved for so long.. and I will continue to speak out against it in hope that one day things might return to the better days of old.
hmm I missed this post. Let me ask you a question, if a player wipes and never gets caught by the ref, what do you do? Chances are the next game you'll "light him up" right?
I pretty sure that's the acceptable answer to wipers right? So how's bonus balling someone alright?

[aqua_scummm]

hmm I missed this post. Let me ask you a question, if a player wipes and never gets caught by the ref, what do you do? Chances are the next game you'll "light him up" right?
I pretty sure that's the acceptable answer to wipers right? So how's bonus balling someone alright?
That depends, are you talking about shooting him after he's already declared eliminated? If so, that's not cool, and it's not something I would do. However, "lighting up" someone who's not calling themselves out is completely legal, it's perfectly acceptable to empty hoppers on people who are still in the game, until they call themselves out

[JesseB]

That depends, are you talking about shooting him after he's already declared eliminated? If so, that's not cool, and it's not something I would do. However, "lighting up" someone who's not calling themselves out is completely legal, it's perfectly acceptable to empty hoppers on people who are still in the game, until they call themselves out

Over shooting will get you thrown off any respectable field regardless of the other teams...errr.... strategy...

If I saw someone light someone up and their excuse was wiping I'd probably ask them to sit out the next game or give them a warning... But if someone just so happens to catch a bad break and get hosed then there is not much you can do about it...

And bonus balls = walk off the field faster. I catch them reffing and playing it's not that bad since it was my fault I was in the way.

[SR_matt]

i understand your point PC, and ya the explosive results can be annoying and heck ill admit that ill rag of SP but i normally will follow it with trying to be helpful.

personally i feel that the things SP tried to do went beyond just trying to turn a buck and really tried to just screw over the industry, i feel there markers are substantially subpar and made to bad specs (when i see people that have snapped the hammer assemblies when they are over 1/4 thick solid AL or SS, cant remember off hand, from just cycling the marker there are issues. plus the fact that the alloys used are not consistent, hence the slight color differences from part to part).

i will give to them that they have some good things or at least good ideas. their max flow tanks are good, their barrel kits are a good idea, personally dont think they are a great execution of it but a good idea (even though ive kind of given up on kits at this point). the idea of the ion was great, execution meh.


what ever, dont really care what others will say, i try to to be rude with my distaste for SP, ive played long enough to see it all go down and tried to look into it and think they were out of line and didnt have much if any claim to what they tried to get.

and i dont normally say it but i still feel that the best way to deal with broken sp guns is to tape a quarter to it and toss it, at least then who ever finds it has a quarter :p (couldnt resist that one since you brought it up)
-matt

[ThePixelGuru]

which brings it back to my earlier post, as long as it's legal it'll happen again and again. I never said no one should care; although I personally really don't as I speak for myself only. The problem is more than just SP.
Then I'm afraid I don't know what you're getting at; are you saying that if something bad is legal we should all just go along with it? The other thing I keep hearing from you is that if we can't fix everything we should bother fixing anything. That doesn't make any sense, either. I really don't understand this attitude, but I keep seeing it. It's bad enough to have that kind of defeatist attitude, but why do you need to go around trying to convince other people that doing the right thing or making informed decisions is a worthless venture?

[SR_matt]

Then I'm afraid I don't know what you're getting at; are you saying that if something bad is legal we should all just go along with it? The other thing I keep hearing from you is that if we can't fix everything we should bother fixing anything. That doesn't make any sense, either. I really don't understand this attitude, but I keep seeing it. It's bad enough to have that kind of defeatist attitude, but why do you need to go around trying to convince other people that doing the right thing or making informed decisions is a worthless venture?
to piggy back,

my father (who was a lawyer) has said many times how when he was young and my grand parents were young, legal was the bare minimum but there was much higher standards that people operated on. but now people think if it is legal it is perfectly fine. the issue is not with the legal system but with those who are exploiting it.

just because something is legal doesnt make it right or good, but then again the inverse can be said of illegal and bad.

-matt

[Coralis]

When i play my ipod backwards it says "Smart Parts is the devil, Smart Parts is the devil". :p

[Ninjeff]

When i play my ipod backwards it says "Smart Parts is the devil, Smart Parts is the devil". :p


"lived eht si strap trams"

thats smart parts is teh devil backwards. Looks like some latin stuff.... :rofl:

[bound for glory]

why don't all you smart parts *** kissers just go to a sp board? i would'nt spend one penny on anything sp. how can you come here, and start this crap over and over. ok! we get it...you like sp and we like honest companys(with high class product). really, this is not needed here. go away. i need an emag...

[warbeak2099]

why don't all you smart parts *** kissers just go to a sp board? i would'nt spend one penny on anything sp. how can you come here, and start this crap over and over. ok! we get it...you like sp and we like honest companys(with high class product). really, this is not needed here. go away. i need an emag...

Punkcat is NOT an uninformed SP *** kisser. I just think he is misunderstanding the situation. SP is not just a company that has business smarts. They are a company that conducts itself without business ethics. A company that concentrated more on private profit than the market as a whole. These companies are frowned upon in the real world because they harm the general market. But in the immature world of paintball, it's totally ok for a company to do such things. People in paintball actually think that business and ethics don't belong in the same sentence. This is just ignorant as hell. It shows how little these people understand about the real business world. Paintball business isn't conducted by professionals with MB's, it's conducted by people with such a rudimentary understanding of business that they think the Gardner brothers are just smart guys. It's sad really.

[ThePixelGuru]

why don't all you smart parts *** kissers just go to a sp board? i would'nt spend one penny on anything sp. how can you come here, and start this crap over and over. ok! we get it...you like sp and we like honest companys(with high class product). really, this is not needed here. go away. i need an emag...
Wow, thanks for proving Punkncat's point and undermining ours. It's really hard to assert that you're just having an intelligent debate based on the facts when the thread is peppered with borderline flames like this. I may not agree with Punkncat in this particular circumstance, but at least I respect him enough to finish reading his post. :rolleyes:

Also, don't trigger the cuss filter. Probably best to change that before the mods see it, or even better, just delete your post.

[robnix]

Wow, thanks for proving Punkncat's point and undermining ours. It's really hard to assert that you're just having an intelligent debate based on the facts when the thread is peppered with borderline flames like this. I may not agree with Punkncat in this particular circumstance, but at least I respect him enough to finish reading his post. :rolleyes:

Also, don't trigger the cuss filter. Probably best to change that before the mods see it, or even better, just delete your post.
Exactly.

[bound for glory]

i won't delete my post for anyone. i'm no pbn kid. i'm a 40 year old family man whos been in the game scince 1984. i remember the gardners from the all american days. when they use to turn up at wolfs lair(now emr). they were jerks back then, should'nt expect them to have changed. and this is a agd forum. go tell someone who cares that sp is'nt to blame for the state of affairs that have hurt some good companys. people who start crap threads like this are sad little boys who post more than play. they are mostly newer players with no idea of the old days of this sport. they forget that at one time, respectable people designed products for the players, not just to bully others and turn out sub par products just to get richer. sp and their fan boys blow.

[ThePixelGuru]

i won't delete my post for anyone. i'm no pbn kid. i'm a 40 year old family man whos been in the game scince 1984. i remember the gardners from the all american days. when they use to turn up at wolfs lair(now emr). they were jerks back then, should'nt expect them to have changed. and this is a agd forum. go tell someone who cares that sp is'nt to blame for the state of affairs that have hurt some good companys. people who start crap threads like this are sad little boys who post more than play. they are mostly newer players with no idea of the old days of this sport. they forget that at one time, respectable people designed products for the players, not just to bully others and turn out sub par products just to get richer. sp and their fan boys blow.
Okay, but I'd expect in 40 years that perhaps you'd learned how to express these sentiments tactfully. I don't have to be a 40 year old family man to know that people listen more to well-reasoned, calm arguments than they do to the kind of disrespectful crap you're spewing. I respect Punkncat and he respects me, so when we disagree about something (like how much the average paintballer should care about SP) we can actually have a meaningful discussion rather than just yelling at each other to get the hell out.

Posts like yours don't add anything to the discussion; moreover, they're just more angry opinions that may or may not be backed by facts. We don't know if you have any reason for believing what you do, or if you've spent 40 years collecting baseless opinions to regurgitate. Furthermore, the sorts of posts you've made in this thread are exactly the kind of pointless SP-bashing Punkncat's sick of - if you want to make a point, try doing it by stating examples and saying why we shouldn't let SP get away with this stuff. Read Punkncat's original post again, and we'll see if in 40 years you've managed to grasp the concept of irony.

[aqua_scummm]

Over shooting will get you thrown off any respectable field regardless of the other teams...errr.... strategy...


Every field I have played at has the same rule, if they're not calling themselves out, don't wait for a ref, that's how you get eliminated. Keep shooting at them.

Within reason. if a kid's unconscious with his mask off, unresponsive, and not calling himself out, most places would want you to stop...

But if they're playing like they're still in, keep shooting them until they are called out by themselves or a ref

[Ninjeff]

Yea Bound for Glory, Punkncat is a good guy. A stand up dude, and a well respected member of this AO community, What he is saying, is that he is sick of reading about it (sp vs whoever) all the time. More over, he is sick of hearing about it in a non-respectful and non-intelligent conversation. He, by no means, is a SP fan boy. You would do well to choose your words more carefully.

[phatty123]

When will this thread die? Well before it does I think its time for me to beat a dead horse. I would say 90% of the markers I see that are be tinkered with to get fine tuned are Shockers and Ions. I am not a fan of stuff that has to be repaired just to go play. I have owned mags off and on for about 7-8 years. I am a big fan of the design and the company. AGD has its issue too. I almost had a brain aneurysm trying to get my level 10 working properly. Every one gave me great advice, but it tooks months took get it right. It actually left me down at the field a few times just chuffing away and refusing to fire with the smallest spring and biggest non leaking carrier. So every company has its issues. Thays just my personal view. Most people have no trouble with the level 10, but some do. So I have had my reliable old mag leave me hanging with the shocker and ion guys.

I can't speak for SP's currect quality control, but my 2002 SP vision impulse just rips. It doesn't break paint and it always works. I put my retro warped minimag in the backup marker bag in favor of this Smart Parts marker. I have to say I have had longer more enjoyable days with it. It shoots the crappiest paint with ease where the mag even being force fed with the level ten would just be better used as a margarita blender. I actually ended up trading my mag for an angel. Now I don't own any AGD markers. They are still my favorite, but I am on a budget and I like to play paintball. The SP marker will shoot RPS Flash crap paint (29.99 a case) and the mag won't what would you do? I go to the field to play.

-barry

If there are any spelling errors forgive me. Its late and I am really sunburned.

[mostpeople]

Does anybody have that picture of the poster who was making art out of an ion frame by bashing it up? I would like to get that pictar :)

[going_home]

Does anybody have that picture of the poster who was making art out of an ion frame by bashing it up? I would like to get that pictar :)

Talk about bringing one back from the dead !

I believe that would be Dan at Triggernomics wouldnt it ?
Isnt his nickname maghog ?


http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=229534&highlight=maghog



:D

[punkncat]

Reading back over this....I would just like to thank those members that in spite of having a differing opinion on the subject, defended me anyway.

One of the things that makes AO such a good place.

:clap:

[druid]

yeah, wow........May of 08. mostpeople gets the :headbang: award.......lol........



I've said it before and I'll say it again....

Other companies are as guilty as SP for poor business ethics or practices but people seem to like to ignore THEIR misdeeds.....

Halo/Empire/DXS/NPS/Ntl Paintball supply, Virtue......pick any large company, they've all done it to one extent or another. I challenge anyone to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there are more than a handful of mega-companies that DON'T engage in some kind of shenanigans.

Need a different perspective?
Anyone using MS/Windows is as guilty of pandering to the same "Elitist" money-mongering companies they claim SP to be.

[Reiner]

I've said it before and I'll say it again....

Other companies are as guilty as SP for poor business ethics or practices but people seem to like to ignore THEIR misdeeds.....

Halo/Empire/DXS/NPS/Ntl Paintball supply, Virtue......pick any large company, they've all done it to one extent or another. I challenge anyone to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there are more than a handful of mega-companies that DON'T engage in some kind of shenanigans.

Need a different perspective?
Anyone using MS/Windows is as guilty of pandering to the same "Elitist" money-mongering companies they claim SP to be.
The paintball industry is fairly big business now. It's no longer comprised of a few machinists and hobbyists turned business people. In any large industry, businesses engage in questionable ethical behaviour to achieve an advantage to further their bottom line. To think otherwise would be naive. As consumers, we have choices of where to spend our money. If consumers choose how to spend their money based on ethical behaviour, they have every right to do so. The beauty of free enterprise.

Unfortunately, when industries grow, the small companies that started up and were run by the enthusiasts, quite often lose out in the long run. That's the case in virtually every new industry that has any kind of substantial growth. Paintball is no different.

[DevilMan]

The paintball industry is fairly big business now. It's no longer comprised of a few machinists and hobbyists turned business people. In any large industry, businesses engage in questionable ethical behaviour to achieve an advantage to further their bottom line. To think otherwise would be naive. As consumers, we have choices of where to spend our money. If consumers choose how to spend their money based on ethical behaviour, they have every right to do so. The beauty of free enterprise.

Unfortunately, when industries grow, the small companies that started up and were run by the enthusiasts, quite often lose out in the long run. That's the case in virtually every new industry that has any kind of substantial growth. Paintball is no different.

That is true. BUT when a company grows and uses that income and depth of pocket as well as not just unethical but I feel illegal methods to corner the market then that's what the SP ruckus was about. From my understanding and there are far more here that know more of the details than I do. SP was prone to pushing things through the patent office that had been done in the PB biz for some years and that they even got from someone else years before. BUT it had not been patented because the folks doing it were leaving it open source for others to use and build on. They got the papers and then told everyone else to stop or they'd be sued. The others not having the bank to fight the legal battle had no choice but to close shop. The patent apps that SP submitted failed to list any previous information, prior knowledge I think it's called, about the things that were already being done in the PB world. The USPTO not knowing any better as there isn't a lot of old USPTO personnel playing paintball shoved the patent through unchallenged, unresearched, unknowingly giving SP the legal "leg to stand on" when in reality they didn't. BUT by the time word got out on what was going on, the damage had been done and the businesses closed. Investments of untold amounts by a group of 4 or 5 folks churning out custom deals and doing R&D on a personal level don't just get tossed out the window overnight without someone feeling the sting. Additionally things such as using air to shoot a paintball and such were such idiotic patents that if you really were able to have the time and where with all to sit down and read each and every one of them things like "Using a spring to reset the trigger" "using an airline running through the grip frame" things like that... Had already not only been done on a small scale but a large one as well. But because the companies doing it either didn't feel like patenting it, have the money to patent it, or didn't feel threatened enough to worry about losing their bizness by someone suing them for doing something that someone else had already done before them and they just tweaked it, they did their thing. SP took that opportunity and got the USPTO to sign off on the papers and then shut the companies down to knock the bizness out of cutting in to their profit margin.

Or at least this is the way I am to understand it.

Bizness is Bizness and it really don't take a person with a masters in global economics to understand that. I think a kid trying to buy a gumball can grasp the concept easily enough. But shady and illegal and unethical ways to deal with competition is no different than being a bully in school. You don't have the muscle because you've not hit puberty yet. So you'd rather give the nickel away than get a shiner. Or you'd rather fight and then you get a shiner and still lose the nickel and the dollar as well.

YMMV,

DM

[druid]

1. But because the companies doing it either didn't feel like patenting it, have the money to patent it, or didn't feel threatened enough to worry about losing their bizness by someone suing them for doing something that someone else had already done before them and they just tweaked it, they did their thing. SP took that opportunity and got the USPTO to sign off on the papers and then shut the companies down to knock the bizness out of cutting in to their profit margin.

Or at least this is the way I am to understand it.

2. Bizness is Bizness and it really don't take a person with a masters in global economics to understand that. I think a kid trying to buy a gumball can grasp the concept easily enough. But shady and illegal and unethical ways to deal with competition is no different than being a bully in school. You don't have the muscle because you've not hit puberty yet. So you'd rather give the nickel away than get a shiner. Or you'd rather fight and then you get a shiner and still lose the nickel and the dollar as well.

YMMV,

DM

1. You answered yourself with my own answer from other forums. I think I've even said it here.......that Tom Kay dropped the ball by NOT patent protecting it. The patent doesn't have o limit the design to the producer, the patent can be marked as "open for free use" but stll is protected to the patent holder.

And if it be the case that someone deigns something for "open use" then they have nothing to complain about...except that someone else is taking credit for their work. Well, they can't do that if the true originator holds that patent, right? It doesn't say anything about HAVING to enforce the patent Rights, only that they are entitled to it.

2. So long as my answer #1 exists, so will your response #2. Business IS business and companies will do what they can to reap the most profit. If you create something and don't protect the design, it's your own fault if you "lose" it. Sure it's unethical but no one in today's world cares about that anymore...except Automag Owners on an AutoMag forum (or Mag owners on ANY forum for that matter).

I work as an Officer in a prison filled with the most unethical and illegal activists you can imagine. Prison doesn't stop them, evidenced by the recidivism rate or the fact that we keep getting "new ones" that think they've gotten one "over" on the system - and got caught anyway. "Professional athletes" juice to get an edge - unethical, illegal. Congressmen hiring hookers - unethical and illegal. County Executives raising taxes for ____, but spend it on ____ instead - unethical (might not be illegal).

So when in comparison to all other things immoral, unethical or illegal that's not paintball, yet everyone just loves.......SP is really no different and should be revered in the same manner.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not telling anyone to love SP. The other side of the coin is to put the blame where it really belongs. In this case, Tom and AKA. If he didn't want the Gardners to take his designs......if AKA didn't want them taking their designs and shutting them down........THEY SHOULD HAVE PROACTIVELY PROTECTED THEIR INTERESTS. They didn't and right or wrong, SP got the patents for them.

If you are walking down the street and drop $100 bill, I'm half a block behind you and pick it up. After I've gone, you go back to look for it.

Whose fault is it that you are out the $100 and now I'm + that money?

Is it theft? I didn't take it off your body, or did I demand it from you under threat or force.

Was it mine to begin with? No.

Who's right and who's wrong?

[mostpeople]

Talk about bringing one back from the dead !

I believe that would be Dan at Triggernomics wouldnt it ?
Isnt his nickname maghog ?


http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=229534&highlight=maghog



:D

Bookmarked! thanks!

[DevilMan]

1. You answered yourself with my own answer from other forums. I think I've even said it here.......that Tom Kay dropped the ball by NOT patent protecting it. The patent doesn't have o limit the design to the producer, the patent can be marked as "open for free use" but stll is protected to the patent holder.

And if it be the case that someone deigns something for "open use" then they have nothing to complain about...except that someone else is taking credit for their work. Well, they can't do that if the true originator holds that patent, right? It doesn't say anything about HAVING to enforce the patent Rights, only that they are entitled to it.

2. So long as my answer #1 exists, so will your response #2. Business IS business and companies will do what they can to reap the most profit. If you create something and don't protect the design, it's your own fault if you "lose" it. Sure it's unethical but no one in today's world cares about that anymore...except Automag Owners on an AutoMag forum (or Mag owners on ANY forum for that matter).

I work as an Officer in a prison filled with the most unethical and illegal activists you can imagine. Prison doesn't stop them, evidenced by the recidivism rate or the fact that we keep getting "new ones" that think they've gotten one "over" on the system - and got caught anyway. "Professional athletes" juice to get an edge - unethical, illegal. Congressmen hiring hookers - unethical and illegal. County Executives raising taxes for ____, but spend it on ____ instead - unethical (might not be illegal).

So when in comparison to all other things immoral, unethical or illegal that's not paintball, yet everyone just loves.......SP is really no different and should be revered in the same manner.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not telling anyone to love SP. The other side of the coin is to put the blame where it really belongs. In this case, Tom and AKA. If he didn't want the Gardners to take his designs......if AKA didn't want them taking their designs and shutting them down........THEY SHOULD HAVE PROACTIVELY PROTECTED THEIR INTERESTS. They didn't and right or wrong, SP got the patents for them.

If you are walking down the street and drop $100 bill, I'm half a block behind you and pick it up. After I've gone, you go back to look for it.

Whose fault is it that you are out the $100 and now I'm + that money?

Is it theft? I didn't take it off your body, or did I demand it from you under threat or force.

Was it mine to begin with? No.

Who's right and who's wrong?

That is not the point of my post Druid. My point is that when something is put out as common knowledge and is being used by various people in different aspects of life Read that as not just PB. Then it is not mentioned a Prior Knowledge when a patent app goes in is that not fraud by ommission of facts?

I understand designing something, R&D'ing something and making and producing something that is specific and technical. I however do not see making a broad blanket patent such as "use of a microswitch in a PB marker" as being able to have a patent assigned to it. As that being the case you could say, that it's used as the trigger, or as the board programming, or as the feed neck. But it'd be like saying I want to patent the Bowie Knife. Or I want to patent a watch and it's internal workings. IF you do the watch then it's easy to say this gear is 1/8" and this is 3/16" inch and such as that. If someone comes along and swaps those gears around and moves them and changes their sizes then it's not patent infringement. If that watchmaker says "I want to patent the idea of wearing something on your wrist to tell the time" then do you think that should hold water?

Oh now lets see... How is it attached to the wrist? A band? or magnet maybe?

Yes I know I can go on tangents. The point of the matter is to apply the general overall happenings of the PB world and SP to the rest of the world and tell me if you think it'd make sense?

It'd be like me going now to the USPTO and saying... I'd like to patent the idea of using a mechanical device to soar through the air from one location to another. Does anyone have the patent on flying? Nope. So why can't I get it and sue all the plane makers for patent infringement? Don't get me wrong I don't blame SP 100% of the issue. I blame the lawyers which brought up the idea and helped enforce it and I blame the USPTO for not researching the info before they issued such things as well as issuing such a blanket patent.

And for what it's worth. I still shoot my mags and love em, but also have cockers and eteks and DM3's and Angels. I however hate AKA and Tippman guns. My feelings on this are far less PB related and more generally related as to how people should conduct themselves and their bizness and how they should handle their jobs.

DM

[DevilMan]

And if it be the case that someone deigns something for "open use" then they have nothing to complain about...except that someone else is taking credit for their work. Well, they can't do that if the true originator holds that patent, right? It doesn't say anything about HAVING to enforce the patent Rights, only that they are entitled to it.


See this is a matter of contention. It's designed as OPEN USE/SOURCE that means that when you submit your patent you have to list it as PRIOR KNOWLEDGE. Meaning that you are aware that there are things out there that use this information. Failing to do so is unethical IF NOT full on ILLEGAL. I've never submitted a patent so I don't know all of the rules, but I am pretty certain that you are supposed to submit any PK that you are aware of and if you think that you can be an up and coming producer of bread and pastries that you would know damn well that there is such a thing as white flour on the market.

DM

[DevilMan]

Oh and To answer you again so as not to make it seem like I'm avoiding something...

I drop the money, you find it it's yours.

You see me drop my wallet or see me drop the money technically it's still yours.

Does that not mean that it'd be nice of ya to hook me up and tell me I dropped it?

I and this is truth or I'm not sittin here.... Watched a girl on post drop a $20 that she was trying to get in her pocket walkin in front of me. I picked it up chased her down and told her she dropped this. She checked her pocket and thanked me and took the 20.

I have found $100 blowin down the street. Picked up up looked around no one there so I kept it. Yup.

DM

[DevilMan]

yeah, wow........May of 08. mostpeople gets the :headbang: award.......lol........



I've said it before and I'll say it again....

Other companies are as guilty as SP for poor business ethics or practices but people seem to like to ignore THEIR misdeeds.....

Halo/Empire/DXS/NPS/Ntl Paintball supply, Virtue......pick any large company, they've all done it to one extent or another. I challenge anyone to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there are more than a handful of mega-companies that DON'T engage in some kind of shenanigans.

Need a different perspective?
Anyone using MS/Windows is as guilty of pandering to the same "Elitist" money-mongering companies they claim SP to be.

I didn't read this fully before. Are you aware of a program called Open Office?

It's a free ware proggy that does the same exact thing as MS Office.

MS wanted to try and shut them down saying they didn't have the right to write a program that would do the same stuff as MSO. They got told not only do they have the right but it's also their right to make it compatible with MSO files. It'd be like saying that ANGEL/WDP made the Angel threaded feednecks and that they can only be used on Angel markers. But now all kinds of people make ANGEL threaded feed necks right?

Angel can patent ANGEL but they can't patent thread pitch/length/size and say noone else can use it.

I can't patent a bar of soap and say that it can only be used to wash your hands.

In the end MS was told not only that the other company could but that they would also have to make sure that their software allowed OO software to access and use the files that MSO made such as the DOCX files and PPT files.

So you see. It is everywhere. And some do care because some care that no matter how crappy the world seems to be there are still a few taking breaths that are trying to change it for the better.

DM

[cockerpunk]

ill never be over it.

but at this point there is nothing we can do. the truth and the history is merely an academic pursuit. SP isn't going anywhere, and they still make garbage for the most part, so i still dislike them. but there isn't anything we can do about this kind of stuff at this point.

i still have a very low opinion of smart parts, and if people ask ill tell them that.

[snoopay700]

ill never be over it.

but at this point there is nothing we can do. the truth and the history is merely an academic pursuit. SP isn't going anywhere, and they still make garbage for the most part, so i still dislike them. but there isn't anything we can do about this kind of stuff at this point.

i still have a very low opinion of smart parts, and if people ask ill tell them that.
This is pretty much how i feel about it, and it's not limited to smart parts for saying their products aren't of the highest quality, tippmann bodies aren't of the highest quality metal and can't be mig welded due to the varying amounts of other metals in the alloy, this is also why they can't exactly be annoed, or at least this used to be the case they may machine the bodies now but i doubt it. My main beef with smart parts still remains that they made it so anyone that that produces an electronic marker has to pay them royalties, and i've always wanted to produce a marker since i realized that a lot of the markers out there could be a lot better. But as for just going out of my way to talk down about smart parts i stopped that shortly after i started because i realized it got me nowhere.

[DevilMan]

But as for just going out of my way to talk down about smart parts i stopped that shortly after i started because i realized it got me nowhere.

That's why I don't feel that I'm talking them down but exposing the information. I don't try to push my opinion on other people, but I have no problem with explaining to them what information I used to make my opinion. What they do with it is up to them.

Too often though sheeple just hear someone else's "THOUGHT" about something and take it as their own. So when that happens and it causes the scales to tip one way, it's often necessary to disseminate ALL the information out there so that some people who are FOR something can get off of one side and onto the other or stand aside altogether to let the scales balance back out.

I don't claim to know every detail of every email/meeting/phone call/letter/etc that went between SP and anyone else same as NO ONE knows every detail that went on between 2 people unless you were there and witnessed it first hand. That is why I put what I gleamed from the information that was passed around various places as well as what I researched up myself.

Oh well...

DM

[snoopay700]

That's why I don't feel that I'm talking them down but exposing the information. I don't try to push my opinion on other people, but I have no problem with explaining to them what information I used to make my opinion. What they do with it is up to them.

Too often though sheeple just hear someone else's "THOUGHT" about something and take it as their own. So when that happens and it causes the scales to tip one way, it's often necessary to disseminate ALL the information out there so that some people who are FOR something can get off of one side and onto the other or stand aside altogether to let the scales balance back out.

I don't claim to know every detail of every email/meeting/phone call/letter/etc that went between SP and anyone else same as NO ONE knows every detail that went on between 2 people unless you were there and witnessed it first hand. That is why I put what I gleamed from the information that was passed around various places as well as what I researched up myself.

Oh well...

DM
Well the bull that they do is one thing, i'll talk about that, but i mean just straight up smart part bashing and saying not to support them because they're destroying paintball with the whole patent fiasco, people either already had my opinion or simply didn't care about what they were doing.

[druid]

Ok, so let me ask this then......

If I go to the USPO and am awarded a patent on a bar of soap.......and even though that bar of soap already exists.....they still gave me that patent for it.

Who's fault is it then?

I'm not saying SP is vindicated but lets be realistic here...the USPO is supposed to research the item desiring the patent award.....right?

If they give a patent out even though it already exists, that's on them. SP simply reaps the benefit from their mistake.

Now I'm CERTAINLY not saying that SP deserves the "blanket" or "broad spectrum" exclusiveness of "micro switch to fire a paintball marker"...or others....but then again, if no one else patented the idea......and SP applied for it AND WAS GRANTED it.....who's really to blame? It's the Patent Office that declares it an original idea, worth exclusivity, right?

Everyone keeps giving SP the hairy eyeball for getting the patent on something.....but it's the USPO that issues it. If SP is undeserving the patent, then the application should be denied. Period.

[cockerpunk]

Ok, so let me ask this then......

If I go to the USPO and am awarded a patent on a bar of soap.......and even though that bar of soap already exists.....they still gave me that patent for it.

Who's fault is it then?

I'm not saying SP is vindicated but lets be realistic here...the USPO is supposed to research the item desiring the patent award.....right?

If they give a patent out even though it already exists, that's on them. SP simply reaps the benefit from their mistake.

Now I'm CERTAINLY not saying that SP deserves the "blanket" or "broad spectrum" exclusiveness of "micro switch to fire a paintball marker"...or others....but then again, if no one else patented the idea......and SP applied for it AND WAS GRANTED it.....who's really to blame? It's the Patent Office that declares it an original idea, worth exclusivity, right?

Everyone keeps giving SP the hairy eyeball for getting the patent on something.....but it's the USPO that issues it. If SP is undeserving the patent, then the application should be denied. Period.

well when you apply for a patent and the whole reason that getting a patent is so hard is because the USPO makes the applicant do that research. you have to research all the related technologies, and those patents all the way back until the original set of patents.

so this is what Smart Parts did when they applied for the expanded shocker patent (the one on all electronic guns), and the research showed alot of prior art, from the eidelmen patent to the US navy patent in the 1960s.

when this application was looked at by the USPO, it was denied.

so smart parts simply re-appiled, not citing those key prior patents.

basically, perjury.

and what do you know - the expanded shocker patent was granted!

its not the USPOs fault if the applicants simply lie.

[DevilMan]

Ok, so let me ask this then......

If I go to the USPO and am awarded a patent on a bar of soap.......and even though that bar of soap already exists.....they still gave me that patent for it.

If you go and say, I want a patent for a bar of soap as a general over all patent and you get given said patent in it's simplest form then I would say they are. HOWEVER. If you go and say, This is a new idea and I want to patent it then that is falsifying a federal document. I say federal because it is after all the USPTO.

Who's fault is it then?

I'm not saying SP is vindicated but lets be realistic here...the USPO is supposed to research the item desiring the patent award.....right?

NO. The person/company applying is supposed to. If I'm not mistaken there is a section that says, Prior Art or whatever applicable to or relating to this application or something to that effect.

If they give a patent out even though it already exists, that's on them. SP simply reaps the benefit from their mistake.

Now I'm CERTAINLY not saying that SP deserves the "blanket" or "broad spectrum" exclusiveness of "micro switch to fire a paintball marker"...or others....but then again, if no one else patented the idea......and SP applied for it AND WAS GRANTED it.....who's really to blame? It's the Patent Office that declares it an original idea, worth exclusivity, right?

Have I ever exclusively blamed SP??? Read my last few posts from beginning to end a few times and get back to me.

Everyone keeps giving SP the hairy eyeball for getting the patent on something.....but it's the USPO that issues it. If SP is undeserving the patent, then the application should be denied. Period.

Here I went ahead and found what I was trying to say... though I've not read the whole page yet...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/utility/utility.htm#cross
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/utility/utility.htm#oath

For the full listing, just click BACK TO TOP or click here http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/utility/utility.htm#top

Does that shine a light on what you are asking?

DM

[snoopay700]

well when you apply for a patent and the whole reason that getting a patent is so hard is because the USPO makes the applicant do that research. you have to research all the related technologies, and those patents all the way back until the original set of patents.

so this is what Smart Parts did when they applied for the expanded shocker patent (the one on all electronic guns), and the research showed alot of prior art, from the eidelmen patent to the US navy patent in the 1960s.

when this application was looked at by the USPO, it was denied.

so smart parts simply re-appiled, not citing those key prior patents.

basically, perjury.

and what do you know - the expanded shocker patent was granted!

its not the USPOs fault if the applicants simply lie.
Exactly, the USPO gets too many patents to do all of the research themselves so you're supposed to do that research (or hire someone to do it).

Also do they only have the patent on microswitches? If so that would answer why the mini went with an HES instead, but i thought they paid royalties still.

[cockerpunk]

no the expanded shocker patent covers everything and anything and switches electrical current to trigger a paintball gun.

[snoopay700]

no the expanded shocker patent covers everything and anything and switches electrical current to trigger a paintball gun.
Hmm, guess they did it just to keep everything clean then with no wires, which doesn't seem like as good of a reason. Oh well they're still fun guns.

[DevilMan]

fun guns.

hmmmm.... you must not have noticed that FUN and GUN are about the most 2 closely related words in the dictionary. They only differ in 1 letter.. The F or the G. And those letters are next to each other in the alphabet.

So I don't know how much closer you could get other than maybe ON and NO, but I think that FUN and GUN were meant to be together from the beginning.

:D

DM

[snoopay700]

hmmmm.... you must not have noticed that FUN and GUN are about the most 2 closely related words in the dictionary. They only differ in 1 letter.. The F or the G. And those letters are next to each other in the alphabet.

So I don't know how much closer you could get other than maybe ON and NO, but I think that FUN and GUN were meant to be together from the beginning.

:D

DM
That is generally true, but there are some guns that i've heard are no fun to shoot haha.

[Reiner]

its not the USPOs fault if the applicants simply lie.
Then there is something seriously wrong with the system if a patent can't be reversed if there is clear evidence that that the patent was undeservedly awarded. What's the point of having a system in place at all if all an applicant has to do is lie to get his/her patend awarded?

[DevilMan]

Then there is something seriously wrong with the system if a patent can't be reversed if there is clear evidence that that the patent was undeservedly awarded. What's the point of having a system in place at all if all an applicant has to do is lie to get his/her patend awarded?

Agreed as well. There was talk if I recall of getting it pulled. But again the people that got ruined in the meantime said to hell with it, because they are out anyway. So why bother? Now is it their fault? Partly. One of those things that if A didn't happen then B wouldn't have happened, the JKL wouldn't have happened.

Not really sure why it was not pulled truth be told, last I had kept up with it some of the folks were actually visiting the USPTO and talking to folks there and presenting the info appropriately.

But that's been a number of months so I don't know where it ever went.

This necrothread is just a continuation of a number of threads that were hot and heavy back in the day. But like a volcanic eruption. It has to settle sometime. Just a matter of what is destroyed in the process.

DM

[y0da900]

It's because of problems like this that the USPTO now has a prior arts submission program, where you are able to look at patent applications, and submit what you believe is prior art for their scrutiny in deciding the validity of the patent. Some people on MCB actually talked to the primary person at the USPTO responsible for sporting goods patents, and he was supposedly rather thankful at being shown some of the resources that the nerds in the sport have compiled - because he frankly had no idea where to look for paintball prior art, and was surprised at the amount that was out there.

[MAGslinger]

I would have less resentment if Smart Parts was just honest and said that they took advantage of the fact that no one had patented the technology. I remember the days before the Ion walked the earth, and though things have changed in paintball, I like it that way. They had pump players complaining about how "fast" the 68 Special was, and then when the Automag came out, they complained about how easy it was to fan the trigger, this argument has been around since paintball was invented. I like taking to my local field, I like being outgunned like its 'Nam and Charlie is out to get you, its fun when I have Angels and Ego's descending upon me and my trusty 68 Classic (well, maybe my Tac-One every now and then). If anything, the Ion has just brought more people into the sport, and younger players, that's a plus. Complain about the ROF all you want, if your a Milsim player, and you want to keep things real, keep in mind that in a real warzone soldiers don't whine about being outgunned :shooting: . I think older players are opting for the better designs like the Automag, and the PPS Blazer. There is certainly a small minute trend back to the mechanical design. I don't care about the BS people put out about electronics being very in sync and having faster response, today on the paintball field it all comes down to what will be reliable, and work.

[corwin_160]

Honestly you really can't blame SP for that. Maybe the Gardners are sleaze, but in a business since, they did what any smart for profit company would do. They found a loop-hole and exploited it for their gain. This kind of stuff happens all the time, but for some reason the paintball community can't accept it. I have a theory why; paintball was built around honor in it's beginnings. Guys like Tom Kaye, Bud Orr, etc., made gentlemen agreements such as the 13 bps. When the industry exploded and people relized that millions could be made, this left the industry with two groups: Dwindling old school guys like Tom Kaye and business savvy guys like the Gardners. I think Tom Kaye sense of honor hurt AGD more than SP did. In the world of big business you best leave honor at the door.
It worked well for the Gardners.

Are you f#$% serious when honor and dignity become something you can put a price tag on you might as well put your hand on the handle your self and watch the whole thing swirl down the drain. The more you promote backstabbing and steeling the closer we get to being nothing more than savages fighting over the last peace of meat! If you have kid’s I hope they have better morels than you do.

[druid]

Are you f#$% serious when honor and dignity become something you can put a price tag on you might as well put your hand on the handle your self and watch the whole thing swirl down the drain. The more you promote backstabbing and steeling the closer we get to being nothing more than savages fighting over the last peace of meat! If you have kid’s I hope they have better morels than you do.

The problem is that kenndog's right. He's not agreeing that this is what SHOULD be done in business.......he's saying that it IS being done in business and it's not going away. Not in paintball, not in politics, not in the world of iPods or the computer you are typing on. It's a simple fact of life.......old school methods and 'ways of thinking' are falling to big-business and tycoon tactics. Like it or not, s wrong as we all know it is, its going to happen - and so long as the USPO hands out paper to those who lie (and no one steps up to challenge them in court), it's going to continue to happen and it won't ever stop.

Like it or not, nothing will change this...Just like you have your "AGD arm-chair commando's" or "selective weekend AGD warriors"......You know the type:

For every AGD lover, there are very FEW who are solely devoted to AGD. I can think of an immediate handful but of all those loyal Mag owners out there, how many own ANY other marker? If they were THAT devout, they wouldn't own Angels, vikings, Indian Creek, DMs or autocockers AT ALL. If they felt THAT strongly, they'd ONLY own AGD products. Yet we look around the picture threads of everything under the sun AND a Mag or few.

I know of one person on another forum who has a stack of AGDang-that-a-lotta-Mags.......but he STILL has other markers OTHER than Mags. He is, no doubt in my mind, a Mag fanatic and HUGE AGD supporter. The fact he owns SO MANY is proof enough for me....but then again I have to ask, "of all those Mags he owns, how many were actually purchased for AGD the company?" I don't know the answer but I would hazard a guess at "a few." Well, a "few" of the 20+ or so in his possession isn't really supporting the company is it? Not when the Mags are bought from other players.....and THEN there's the Angels (and others). Now before anyone gets the 'bright idea'.....I'm NOT slamming him ONE BIT. I'm simply playing "devil's advocate" about the matter and using him as one example (even though it's a bad example, it's just one observation)

Anyway.....

So what is the solution? Not buy from Smart Parts? That's not going to work, no matter how much people try. For every person that says "BAN SP!!" there are 16 others lining up to buy their gear - whether it be Ions, Epiphanies, Shockers - in both standard and PL.....or whatever. It's been tried before and failed. The only way to stop it is to take them to court. Who's going to do that? The Viking guys? Not likely. You? Me? Nope. So instead, let's all sit here and gripe about what "should and shouldn't" be.......while business is usual in the SP board room, laughing at all the "whiners" that [can] do nothing to stop them....

[DevilMan]

The problem is that kenndog's right. He's not agreeing that this is what SHOULD be done in business.......he's saying that it IS being done in business and it's not going away. Not in paintball, not in politics, not in the world of iPods or the computer you are typing on. It's a simple fact of life.......old school methods and 'ways of thinking' are falling to big-business and tycoon tactics. Like it or not, s wrong as we all know it is, its going to happen - and so long as the USPO hands out paper to those who lie (and no one steps up to challenge them in court), it's going to continue to happen and it won't ever stop.

Like it or not, nothing will change this...Just like you have your "AGD arm-chair commando's" or "selective weekend AGD warriors"......You know the type:

For every AGD lover, there are very FEW who are solely devoted to AGD. I can think of an immediate handful but of all those loyal Mag owners out there, how many own ANY other marker? If they were THAT devout, they wouldn't own Angels, vikings, Indian Creek, DMs or autocockers AT ALL. If they felt THAT strongly, they'd ONLY own AGD products. Yet we look around the picture threads of everything under the sun AND a Mag or few.

I know of one person on another forum who has a stack of AGDang-that-a-lotta-Mags.......but he STILL has other markers OTHER than Mags. He is, no doubt in my mind, a Mag fanatic and HUGE AGD supporter. The fact he owns SO MANY is proof enough for me....but then again I have to ask, "of all those Mags he owns, how many were actually purchased for AGD the company?" I don't know the answer but I would hazard a guess at "a few." Well, a "few" of the 20+ or so in his possession isn't really supporting the company is it? Not when the Mags are bought from other players.....and THEN there's the Angels (and others). Now before anyone gets the 'bright idea'.....I'm NOT slamming him ONE BIT. I'm simply playing "devil's advocate" about the matter and using him as one example (even though it's a bad example, it's just one observation)

Anyway.....

So what is the solution? Not buy from Smart Parts? That's not going to work, no matter how much people try. For every person that says "BAN SP!!" there are 16 others lining up to buy their gear - whether it be Ions, Epiphanies, Shockers - in both standard and PL.....or whatever. It's been tried before and failed. The only way to stop it is to take them to court. Who's going to do that? The Viking guys? Not likely. You? Me? Nope. So instead, let's all sit here and gripe about what "should and shouldn't" be.......while business is usual in the SP board room, laughing at all the "whiners" that [can] do nothing to stop them....

It's not about banning SP. It's about not supporting someone or their company because of poor bizness practices. It's no different than the feedback that you receive here. You get lots of bad feedback posted because you ship crappy stuff, lie about damage, take forever to get it out the door, then your products don't move half as fast as someone who takes pride in upholding a deal and making it smooth and getting the buyer the goods in a timely manner.

Someone once said, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

When there is an injustice being done in any and every facet of life and you do nothing about it then that's all it takes for evil to win. It's simple. Do I feel it's a lost cause? To some extent. But I also feel that if I am not part of the solution I am part of the problem. It's no different than someone who don't vote complaining about who is in office. All it took was enough people who said, "My vote don't matter" to give the other guy the win. If enough people said instead, "My vote does matter, and so does yours and yours and yours so lets go to the polls!" Then the world would be a different place.

As for the whiners? It's takes just as much time for you to type up something bashing the whiners and supporting SP as it does for me to type up something explaining SP's poor bizness ethics and shady deals. It's no different than if you found out that SP had all their stuff made by 7 year old kids who got paid a nickel a month to do so. Would you still support them?

It's a matter of those that caring standing up and saying that they care. Do I care if a PB marker even has a freakin battery in it? NO!!!!! Do you realize I have like 20 markers, some of the electro and most never see the field just because I shoot a mech with pocket hopper 90% of the time. It's not a "holier than thou" issue. And it's not a "I think you're a tool" issue. It's an issue of information dissemination about a company's poor ethics and even somewhat illegal dealings.

I could give you 1001 other examples of what they could do that would better shine the light on what I'm talking about if need be, but I'm thinking from the context of your post that isn't needed. Or at least hoping that it's not.

DM

[chinstrap]

Interesting...

Just an idea here:

If everyone who took the time to write an angry post on the internet about Smart Parts instead used those resources to snail mail/email/call/otherwise contact the patent office with some widely distributed "prior art" literature, it could get results. all it would take is a printable form letter and email. You can even get free postage if you put the target address as both addresses on an envelope.

See, if there's one thing I've learned dealing with any company is that even if you don't have the money to pursue legal action, you can still get them to do your bidding. The whole premise is based on "billable man hours".

If they pay their employees, say $15/hour, every hour of their time that you waste costs them $15, every ten hours costs them $150 and so on. Once it is made clear to the offending entity that they can eliminate a recurring drain on their resources by simply addressing a mistake they've made, they generally tend to do it.

Also, the higher up the person who's time your wasting, the better, since they usually get paid more.

This thread alone is almost a year old; think of how much of the patent office's time (and subsequently, money) could have been wasted over the past year.

[trippleRipple]

First of all this idea that the big businesses' modus operandi is shady, illegal, or immoral business practices is just wrong. Yes there are some real winners out there. But to sit here and think that is how the world as a whole works is just plain wrong.

Big companies got there, by and large, by hard work and innovation. If you are really interested in getting a glimpse of how big companies are making advances and becoming bigger read the book "The World is Flat" by Fredrick Douglas.

Next, if you really want to understand why AGD is where it is today go find an interview TK gave back in the day, http://www.paintmagazine.com/wpaint2/mag.shtml Its pretty clear from the interview just what was coming down the road for AGD.

Furthermore once TK sold AGD the main driving force behind innovation at AGD left the company. The fact that the company has survived is great for us who still enjoy playing old school PB but lets not kid ourselves AGD is not going to be releasing a new marker chock full of innovations any time soon.

As far as SP goes if you don't like their business practices don't buy their products. The truth is not everyone can afford to avoid SP. I remember when I first started playing PB I could not afford a mag or a cocker so I ended up buying a spyder. We want to lower barriers to entry not raise them.

Rant Off.

[snoopay700]

First of all this idea that the big businesses' modus operandi is shady, illegal, or immoral business practices is just bull****. Yes there are some real ******** out there. But to sit here and think that is how the world as a whole works is just plain wrong.

Big companies got there, by and large, by hard work and innovation. If you are really interested in getting a glimpse of how big companies are making advances and becoming bigger read the book "The World is Flat" by Fredrick Douglas.

Next, if you really want to understand why AGD is where it is today go find an interview TK gave back in the day, http://www.paintmagazine.com/wpaint2/mag.shtml Its pretty clear from the interview just what was coming down the road for AGD.

Furthermore once TK sold AGD the main driving force behind innovation at AGD left the company. The fact that the company has survived is great for us who still enjoy playing old school PB but lets not kid ourselves AGD is not going to be releasing a new marker chock full of innovations any time soon.

As far as SP goes if you don't like their business practices don't buy their products. The truth is not everyone can afford to avoid SP. I remember when I first started playing PB I could not afford a mag or a cocker so I ended up buying a spyder. We want to lower barriers to entry not raise them.

Rant Off.
I'd take those asterisks out of your post, those can get you banned.

Anyway, it's not simply them having bad business practices, it's about them having an illegal monopoly.

[Lohman446]

I'd take those asterisks out of your post, those can get you banned.

Anyway, it's not simply them having bad business practices, it's about them having an illegal monopoly.


I really don't see the monopoly. I see some patents that appear to those of us who don't know anything to be stretching it, but thats about it.

[snoopay700]

I really don't see the monopoly. I see some patents that appear to those of us who don't know anything to be stretching it, but thats about it.
It's not being stretched at all, pretty much any company that has an electronic marker pays royalties, and it's bogus because they don't deserve the patent.

[trippleRipple]

I'd take those asterisks out of your post, those can get you banned.

Anyway, it's not simply them having bad business practices, it's about them having an illegal monopoly.

By definition they have a very legal monopoly. Thats what a patent is; the law protects the intellectual property of the innovator.

You can argue that the patent has been issued to the wrong individual but this was throughly hashed out in the courts when it first came up. I imagine at some point the the value of royalties paid will justify taking this back to court if in fact there is a real claim.

If there was truely as much money in royalties as everyone likes to think and there was a real case there would be a long line of lawyers wanting to take the case to trial.

I am not an industry insider and I have not made any real effort to see if there are any law suites currently filed. But I have not heard of any so logic says there is no case and SP is just going about their legal business.

shrug.

Further more has it really stifled the development of marker technology? Not really. Markers shoot much faster then competition allows, accuracy or efficiency do not increase due to the electronics, weight is not really tied to the electronics. The price of an ego or a DM has nothing to do with the SP royalties. There are plenty of great electronic guns in the 200-300$ range. Seriously who cares?!

P.S. The asterisks were put there by a moderator ;)

[DevilMan]

P.S. The asterisks were put there by a moderator ;)

Actually they were put there by an automated swear filter that keeps it from showing the cuss words.

And a mod can temp/perm ban you for doing so. Even though it's "bleeped" out it still shows that you typed the cuss word in a sense.

Just tryin to keep ya here and not get the boot.

DM

[Lohman446]

It's not being stretched at all, pretty much any company that has an electronic marker pays royalties, and it's bogus because they don't deserve the patent.


The problem is what everyone, most of whom have VERY limited knowledge, states as so obviously "illegal" has been upheld repeatedly by the courts. There have been some modified agreements but it seems that the patents still stand. If it was as cut and dry as some people seem to think it is the issues would have been resolved by the courts differently.

[Beemer]

P.S. The asterisks were put there by a moderator ;)

Umm NO us Mods do not do that. You are new here please read the rules.

Here...http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=165017

• No cussing. Activating the filter[******] is the same as swearing If you see you did please edit and fix it.

[trippleRipple]

Umm NO us Mods do not do that. You are new here please read the rules.

Here...http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=165017

• No cussing. Activating the filter[******] is the same as swearing If you see you did please edit and fix it.

Fair enough, corrected.

[Dirge]

It's because of problems like this that the USPTO now has a prior arts submission program, where you are able to look at patent applications, and submit what you believe is prior art for their scrutiny in deciding the validity of the patent. Some people on MCB actually talked to the primary person at the USPTO responsible for sporting goods patents, and he was supposedly rather thankful at being shown some of the resources that the nerds in the sport have compiled - because he frankly had no idea where to look for paintball prior art, and was surprised at the amount that was out there.


Did anything come of this?

[mostpeople]

Did anything come of this?


srsly.... did anything come of that?

[y0da900]

I haven't seen anything about it since shortly after they got in contact with the guy at the USPTO, so I don't think so in a direct sense. But like I mentioned, the new prior art submission acceptance has happened since then, so hopefully it can be prevented more in the future. Sadly, it isn't like we can talk to the guy and have him retract the patent having been awarded, no matter how convinced he may be that it was done in error. But the main individual responsible for reviewing paintball patents is now aware of some of the compiled and readily available information we have demonstrating prior art.

[cockerpunk]

I haven't seen anything about it since shortly after they got in contact with the guy at the USPTO, so I don't think so in a direct sense. But like I mentioned, the new prior art submission acceptance has happened since then, so hopefully it can be prevented more in the future. Sadly, it isn't like we can talk to the guy and have him retract the patent having been awarded, no matter how convinced he may be that it was done in error. But the main individual responsible for reviewing paintball patents is now aware of some of the compiled and readily available information we have demonstrating prior art.

well the patent genie is out of the bottle so to speak. now im doubting anyone can pull a fast one the way SP did with the shocker patent, but i guess that all depends on the USPO's dealings with the assumed proposal for renewing the shocker patent i think in 2010 ...

[y0da900]

well the patent genie is out of the bottle so to speak. now im doubting anyone can pull a fast one the way SP did with the shocker patent, but i guess that all depends on the USPO's dealings with the assumed proposal for renewing the shocker patent i think in 2010 ...

Any other time and patent, they would be able to just pay the maintenance fees on the patent, and it would stay valid. I'm interested to see how it will be handled since the new ruling that the addition of electronics or electronic controls to an otherwise unpatentable system is no longer grounds for a patent. Not that the Shocker itself wasn't patentable, but I wonder if the electronics crap and the way it is worded will prevent the maintenance, or if it is grandfathered in.

[malJohann]

I have a SP All American barrel and a SP Max-Flo Inline adjustable regulator on my Automag and think nothing of it. Yes, they killed some companies with their business practices, but that won't stop me from using some of their products.

For example, IMO the internal design of the Max-Flo Inline is ingenious, no expensive regulator seats to be found anywhere, just o-rings. That means I'll be able to rapid-fire my mag for longer than with other regulators, because I'll be able to service it in future.

I'll be damned if I get caught by SP with the same bag of tricks when I start my company though.

[mostpeople]

Mmmm new impulse... I <3 smart parts

[devildog]

I also love smart parts. Single handedly brought so many new people into the sport, makes playing fun again.

[Frizzle Fry]

AKA had options available to them that many companies chose and have benefited from it...

...what? Pay royalties for something they created to another company who didn't create it? Regardless of "benefits" that's just silly.

That said I use the SS Freak barrel system and it's worked wonders for me. They created that system and style and it works for me so I don't complain. I'm not opposed to SP products, just to the lies told by the owners and employees. Remember the big LUXXE scandal over on PbN? Or all the false claims about LP markers and range? Or patenting the gasthru grip when companies like Tippmann and the company that made the Badger did it and patented designs with it decades before?.

I won't bash SP products until I've tried them. Shockers have always handled well for me. Ions have always handled like crap and required too many upgrades and too much maintenance for me. That's opinion based on experience.

If there's a lot of people mad about SP about quality, honesty, legal issues and patents, then why shouldn't they have the right to complain?

[mostpeople]

I think AO should boycott SP completely, and make a campaign about it. It should start here.

[deathbypaint1213]

...what? Pay royalties for something they created to another company who didn't create it? Regardless of "benefits" that's just silly.

That said I use the SS Freak barrel system and it's worked wonders for me. They created that system and style and it works for me so I don't complain. I'm not opposed to SP products, just to the lies told by the owners and employees. Remember the big LUXXE scandal over on PbN? Or all the false claims about LP markers and range? Or patenting the gasthru grip when companies like Tippmann and the company that made the Badger did it and patented designs with it decades before?.

I won't bash SP products until I've tried them. Shockers have always handled well for me. Ions have always handled like crap and required too many upgrades and too much maintenance for me. That's opinion based on experience.

If there's a lot of people mad about SP about quality, honesty, legal issues and patents, then why shouldn't they have the right to complain?

I agree, most of the people on PBN that bash smart parts probably did not even purchase single product from them. I use a freak barrel on my autococker pump, and it is a phenomenal barrel system - especially useful for preventing roll-outs. You barely see shockers at fields these days because of all of the ego and dye matrix hypes. I have heard people say shockers suck, but guns mainly "suck" because of user error/neglect.

[txaggie08]

I detest smart parts for what they did, especially when it came to AKA and ICD, both of which I shoot. It was cheap, it bordered on illegal, and was bad business in general. I wouldn't shoot there product on this alone, but that's not the only thing with them I have a major twitch with.

There product is generally somewhere between sub-par and crap. The shocker is built out of shat metal, with terrible anno. The LPR-less design is idiotic, and they had to scramble after release just to find a noid that wouldn't blow because the inconsistent reg was creeping and popping noids. The ion.....don't get me started. I spent a year an half running a rental shop and working as a gun tech at a largely rec-ball field. We sold ten ions in the time I was there, I had 5-6 of them in my hands for work the FIRST DAY. I had never held one before I went to work there, I'm intimately acquainted with the workings of one to the point I can tell you whats wrong by listening to where it's leaking from three feet from the gun.

SP has always been sleezy in there business practices, setting aside the patent thing. I will not support a company who releases guns so badly made they have to have upgrades put on them to be functional. For that matter releases guns so badly made they have to have the frame screws loosened to not leak(dozens of ions). I disliked SP when I got on the other side of the shop counter, I hate them now.


Take it FWIW, I will not use SP products if avoidable. Garner has proven himself a "butt", and there are a host of complaints with them a mile long. Like it or don't like it.

[punkncat]

Lol, it is funny, but the only SP marker that I really like much is the Ion. It is a fun little marker to fool around with and "trick out". Decent little shooter too, just a little heavy IMO but that is ok too.
Up until that new milsim "mini" came out the SP8 was a great choice for that genre as it were.

[DamianTC]

I am going to throw my 2 cents in this one.. and I am not even going into the "drama" of the smart part lawsuits.. I am going to give my opinion of their products. I can not throw them off the bus and just say they plain out suck.. If you were around long enough, you will know how good those old style all american barrels worked in our mags. Unfortunately, I was away from paintball for around 8 years and always wanted one of those all american barrels.. when I came back last summer I finally got to order one.. and I will say the new ones don't compare to those old early 90's AA barrels at all.... Quality barrel? yes. Great barrel? no. Now that I said what I had to say about the only SP thing I own, I will give my opinion about the Ion...

I am sure I am just like all of you on this.. everytime I go to the field and I see this young teen in game #1 or #2 of his paintball career and he is playing with an Ion..I can't stand that sight as much as any of you.. What ever happen to all the blow back bolt guns that are SUPPOSED to be everyone's entry level semi?? Remember those spyders, pro-lites, vm-68's, etc, etc??? But don't blame smart parts on that one. When the Ion was introduced, it was intented to get people out on the speedball course playing tourneyments without spending $1000 on their gun. Granted, if that was what the majority of the sales of the Ion went to, we would all see the Ion as a brilliant idea... BUT... reality kicks in and the Ion is the cheapest priced gun on the biggest paintball company's lineup of markers.. again, its the cheapest priced gun of the biggest paintball company. Who do you think is going to be buying that gun? Thats right, little johnny, who just watched his first paintball game on ESPN2 and begs his parents to let him play paintball for weeks until they finally decide to take him to the local paintball store and look at what paintball is all about... So they get there and mom and dad tell the guy working there that they want to let johnny try out paintball without breaking the bank.. so the first thing he shows them is the $199 Smart parts Ion.. Mom and Dad look at each other and smile... knowing they both found johnny's birthday present.........................

[Frizzle Fry]

Up until that new milsim "mini" came out the SP8 was a great choice for that genre as it were.

The marker formerly known as the "Blackpoint" JCS MKX-8? Basically JCS was making a marker modeled after the XM-8 and was bullied out of making a spool-valve gun by SP... They ended up making a mech STBB and SP claimed their body design and internals as their own to produce the SP8 (which had a cheaper body material).

[punkncat]

The marker formerly known as the "Blackpoint" JCS MKX-8? Basically JCS was making a marker modeled after the XM-8 and was bullied out of making a spool-valve gun by SP... They ended up making a mech STBB and SP claimed their body design and internals as their own to produce the SP8 (which had a cheaper body material).


I know nothing of the gun of which you refer to. Not saying you are wrong, cause I don't know, I do question one thing though, and would like some clarification if you don't mind.

You are saying that they stole the body design, and internals to create the SP8. It is my understanding that the internals of the 8 and the Ion are identical, and aside from the way they look are identical in operation. So, as I am unfamiliar, I ask...was the Ion itself a rip off of that milsim markers (JCS ) internals as well? My thought is that the Ion was around before either of the milsims in question. I have no proof of that, simply fuzzy memory of the general time each was released.

Thanks

[dark blade]

hes refering to this guy

http://www.bp-usa.com/mkx8.htm

which is not in production of the sp8 apaprently

[chinstrap]

The marker formerly known as the "Blackpoint" JCS MKX-8? Basically JCS was making a marker modeled after the XM-8 and was bullied out of making a spool-valve gun by SP... They ended up making a mech STBB and SP claimed their body design and internals as their own to produce the SP8 (which had a cheaper body material).


I remember seeing pre-release literature on those; always wondered what happened to it.

Just found this:
MKX-8 on PBReview.com (http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/4112/)

[Frizzle Fry]

You are saying that they stole the body design, and internals to create the SP8. It is my understanding that the internals of the 8 and the Ion are identical, and aside from the way they look are identical in operation.

An ION is a spool valve marker... The SP8 did have ION internals, but when JCS designed their marker it was a similar operating system but not ION-compatible. No plastic, improved bolt, and a different eye system. Plenty of other spool valve markers similar to the ION existed before SP started into their electro claims. From what I understand, the MXK8 design was close enough to an ION that SP realized they could easily drop ION internals into the JCS body design and did so. JCS then slightly modified the design, made it a bit more sturdy, and "backpeddled" a little bit to make it a STBB (which ended up being more reliable).

That said, the SP8 was a relatively solid marker... I'm not a fan of stock IONs but I've seen SP8s with full aftermarket internals and single-trigger conversions that could REALLY put paint down the field.

[ElPanda]

I have been saying this for a while now.
Its way way past being juvenile at this point.
I personally havent ever seen an Smart Parts marker I would have
but their tank regs and barrel kits I like.
My opinion....if you want to boycott Smart Parts have at it.
BUT KEEP YOUR HATE TO YOURSELF !

;)
;)

it would also be fair to tell anybody that likes smart parts to keep their opinion to themselves as well

keeping your opinion to yourself completely defeats the purpose of being on a forum btw

;)

[DevilMan]

Hear hear!

I don't really have any interest in SP gear at this point but it DID get me back into the sport of paintball. I saw the SP-8, thought it was "cool" and bought one. I eventually sold it in favor of a Blazer. It was, however, a lot of fun to play with.

Every store locally seems to only carry Ion feednecks. How many non-SP markers use them? More than a few I think.

Like Microsoft, SP is an easy target for rebuke but standardization is a good thing.


Echo... echo...

:D

You may have bought the SP8 and that got you where you are today..... but what if you had had other options from other companies to pick from? Not saying good bad or otherwise... but you went to start driving and could only find Ford Pintos how thrilling would that be?

DM

[DamianTC]

I was thinking about this subject again and I wanted to find out what other companies and non-AGD players thought of SP. So I did some searching on the web and found this thread:

http://www.techpb.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1108

These are my two favorite posts from that thread. Remember this is not coming from an automag site



I like to look at the personal side of it. Here we go.. back when it was all pump markers, there were 2 semi's that hit the market.. the AGD automag and the WGP Autococker. Those days showed us a wonderful rivalry.. "mags shoot faster but autocockers are more accurate".. those were some fun days.
None the less, Tom Kaye, the inventor of the automag was the first to use Compressed air tanks for use with paintball. Everyone else in the industry claimed it wasn't safe.. claimed he was crazy. Did Tom Kaye patent this idea?? NO.. like many other of the items he created, he did it for the better of the sport. Just like the warp feed he created.. the first force fed paintball system available for all markers.
Anyways, imagine this.. Tom Kaye sponsors a team called the All Americans, and provides them with the latest and greatest automags. The captain of the team was none other than Billy Gardner. Billy saw an opportunity to make money, so after talking with Tom Kaye started his company (Smart Parts) to produce aftermarket pieces for the Automag. These included splash pieces just for looks, his "magic box" modification which really did nothing, and his "smart valve" which had no real benefits over the 68 valves.
They did sell though, because Billy was the captain of the All Americans and what better advertisement could you get?? And we all know that our sport is very driven by hype.
Now imagine this.. he and his brother (who has been in trouble with the law for scamming people out of money including a patent scam), realize there is a lot of money to be had in the industry as it moves towards electros. They did what was listed above by hp_lovecraft and bought a patent, modified it to say what it needed to say, and then started going after other companies saying they had to pay royalties or would be sued to the full extent.
One of the companies they went after.. AGD and Tom Kaye, the person who gave him his start and helped his company to begin with. The very man who made way for him to make it in this industry, sponsored him and helped him, he stabbed in the back. That is one of the biggest reasons a lot of people cannot stand Smart Parts. Tom Kaye did so much research and open sourced it to show the difference between truth and hype in our industry. His goal was always to better the paintball industry, because he knew that as the sport grew, there were more people to buy the products. Tom never tried to run anyone out of the sport, and enjoyed the competition and bringing new technology and innovation. And for his hard work and kindness he got stabbed in the back by the Gardner brothers.
Who knows what awesome technology we could have had if Tom Kaye was still in the paintball industry.
On top of that, if you look at all of Smart Parts markers, they look really similar to others. Take for existance the Impulse.. looks strikingly similar (externall & internally) to the Bushmaster b2k which preceeded it. Only the b2k had a LPR which is why it worked better. And now look at Smart Parts trying to modify a previous patent to include a patent on an air-through gripframe... something that MANY markers had in the past, and now that the Invert Mini has. I guess he wants a cut from the Invert Mini profit which is a much better marker than his ion. In the area of the patent form where you are supposed to show existing artwork that is similar, he didn't list ANY of the many markers that have an air-through grip frame. Once again, the Gardner scam-artists at work.
I personally will never purchase a smart parts product.. and never play with one. They are a disease to our industry... back in the old days it was all about friendly competition.. now it is one lawsuit after another... a sad thing for our industry as a whole...





PVI invented the Shocker. PVI is listed right on the shocker patent.
It was marketed, and sold through Smart Parts.
When the deal soured between PVI and Smart Parts, PVI left to sell an upgraded version called the Cyber9K. Smart Parts sued them for contract violation, and PVI lost everything, and the company was forclosed by the bank, and everything was sold at auction.
All PVI intellectual propery (ie Shocker and Maxflo) was bought by Smart Parts at the auction.
The first thing they did was have there names added to the Shocker, and Maxflo patents. The original Shocker patent was very specific, and was NOT a patent for "Electro Paintguns", but a patent for "Low Pressure, Dual-noid, paintguns".
When the WDP Angel came out, it wiped out all sales for the SP SHocker, as it instantly made it obsolete. Smart Parts cleverly had its patent REVISED to include all electro paintguns, and then SUED WDP.
This was 10 years ago. This lawsuit went on for years, and was only resolved a couple years ago, in which Smart Parts lost. quote from the judge: "the evidence strongly suggests that neither Billy nor Adam (Smart Parts) could have invented the electronic paintgun" -Garr M. King, U.S. Judge
However, during that 10 years, Smart Parts used the PVI patent to sue nearly every paintball company that made electros.
Many stopped making electros, and others were forced to pay royalties. Some fought as well.
In short, the reason for all the Smart Parts hate is NOT the fact that they are suing everyone, but that this action is HARMING paintball. There are products that are no longer made because of what Smart Parts has done.


Don't it really make you think about all the AGD stuff that we should have, but don't because of this. It makes you mad. I can't even begin to imagine how much more advanced the Xmag would be today if AGD was able to develop more for it these last 6 years.. Better yet, the Xmag would probably not even be AGD's latest gun today

[chafnerjr]

I've got my anti-SP patch... how about you all? :cheers:

[vf-xx]

Don't it really make you think about all the AGD stuff that we should have, but don't because of this. It makes you mad. I can't even begin to imagine how much more advanced the Xmag would be today if AGD was able to develop more for it these last 6 years.. Better yet, the Xmag would probably not even be AGD's latest gun today

True, but look at the Mag community today. Yes it's fairly small, but it does have a lot of tinkers, and a handful of folks developing real improvements (such as the Pneumag) in an open source forum. AGD's spirit is still here.

[kcombs9]

I've got my anti-SP patch... how about you all? :cheers:

I do I do

:headbang: :cheers:

[Lohman446]

Don't it really make you think about all the AGD stuff that we should have, but don't because of this. It makes you mad. I can't even begin to imagine how much more advanced the Xmag would be today if AGD was able to develop more for it these last 6 years.. Better yet, the Xmag would probably not even be AGD's latest gun today

Maybe... AGD (and the spirit of real science rather than marketing) were on the decline in paintball before the legal issues. TK has already talked about his "dream" marker - and frankly it went so far against all the aggness of today (and especially of a couple years ago) that it would have had a hard time with AGD marketing it. I think its (SP) a convenient out more than a reality.

[chafnerjr]

Maybe... AGD (and the spirit of real science rather than marketing) were on the decline in paintball before the legal issues. TK has already talked about his "dream" marker - and frankly it went so far against all the aggness of today (and especially of a couple years ago) that it would have had a hard time with AGD marketing it. I think its (SP) a convenient out more than a reality.

I know not of this dream marker of which you speak. What did he want? :confused:

[Lohman446]

I know not of this dream marker of which you speak. What did he want? :confused:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1291318#post1291318

I already called dibs

[chafnerjr]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1291318#post1291318

I already called dibs
just read it and :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: I hate SP even more now :mad:

[drg]

Uh ... isn't that a joke? I sure hope it is.

[Lohman446]

The great joke involved crown point barrels :) - this was rereferenced in other threads and was not joke to the best of my knowledge

[Watcher]

Just to get my experience out there.


When I entered this sport, I got a Tippmann 98, a solid little gun. Then as I discovered speedball, I grabbed a used electro off the shelf, a PMI Piranha E-force. I liked it.

As a step up, I saw and heard good things about Ions. I found one at a local shop and used trade in value from the Piranha to get a new Ion.


From day one I hit snags. For one, the reg was set too high and when I aired it up it frose the solenoid shut. I couldn't bleed the pressure well, so I had to pop it off half a psi by half a psi until it finally let off enough to shoot clean.
Problem two, the trigger pin was loose and kept falling out. Also, the trigger was incredibly wobbly.
Problem three, the reg was cross threaded into the vetrical adapter. More on this later.
Problem four, the reg internals coudn't be removed as the tensioning nut was stripped.
Problem five, the grips don't fit the frame well and needed to be sanded.
Problem six, all the screws wanted to strip out.
And I've seen countless other things go wrong with other Ions such as hoses blowing, solenoids blowing, feednecks cracking off in the threads, and the boards going from 3 second holds to one touch on for some reason.

Problem seven with my Ion was contacting Smart-Parts. They have a hotline on thier site. I called it every day for a week, never got anything but the answering machine. I left messages, never got them returned. I sent e-mails, none were replied to. I sent warranty claims, none were ticketed. I went on forums and PM'd people said to work for SP. Never a nod in my direction to show they have recieved them.

That's when I started researching SP and found out their past and history. About this time I picked up a RT classic I saw on Ebay.

I took the Ion to my vice and got the reg off, when I discovered the filter to be jammed into the reg which made it skip a thread and force itself stuck. With a stripped out reg and frame, I wandered Ebay. When I found a frame and reg, I replaced the parts. Got the Ion working as best I could, and ditched it.

A member of AO was interested in it, and I negotiated a trade for a RT Pro. Best deal I ever made, and I was glad to get that POS out of my hands and out of my sight. I'm sure it is working well with whoever bought it off of me, and all the power to it for doing so but I hated it and wanted it gone.


Now I am sure the only revenue SP will make off of me is $0, and they were lucky to get the $100 I payed for their Ion.
I refuse to even consider anything SP. You can even ask GRimm this, I was offered an on/off ASA for free for my Autococker as it needed a rail ASA, not a direct mount, and when I saw the SP crosshair I refused to take it. I did not want to use it for fear of risking my tank reg!


SP not only wronged many companies, but they wronged me and lost a customer, for life.

If they end up dominating the paintball market and own every marker being made, every mask, every loader, every pod pack, and all the paint sales, I will stop playing. It will kill me at heart, but I will stop playing.


They are unjust in their sales, they don't have a backbone when something goes wrong, they are too quiet in some areas, too loud in others, and are run by @$$ holes so shadey that they turn around and kill the ones who made them anything.

I have yet to see anything innovative come from them excepting the freak system, and even that isn't so original.



That Ion I had for a week or two and had seven problems with. My 98 I've had for 5 years and have had 2 problems with it, and one was the cyclone feeder so it barely counts. The other was low velocity from a worn spring.
My RT classic's only problem was sitting neglected in a closet for too many years and having all of it's rubber parts destroyed and some screws stripped. It was an easy fix for me and I knew nothing of mags at the time, and an easy out and some screws fixed the previous owner's carelessness.
My RT Pro's only problem was keeping it full of paint :shooting:

My Trracer had a valve component break, but it was easily replaced. My Phantom has a bolt issue, but it is an easy fix.
The Autocockers I've owned rarely had any problems, and if they did it was user error or a worn/dry o-ring.

Tippmann is always on the line when I call. Roman always answers e-mails. Mike at CCI always is there when you need him.

Never had I seen so much go so wrong at once in any gun I've owned or used as that Ion.
And never have I seen a company so blatantly avoid a problem a user has had with their product than Smart-Parts.

[Beemer]

^^^^^^Thats classic^^^^^^well done. :cheers:


My RT Pro's only problem was keeping it full of paint. Roman always answers e-mails

Whats an RT Pro and who is Roman? :dance: :spit_take

The OP is about over it and aint the Mag fan boy and his thread just wont die. :clap:

Quality product and good customer service just wont let it I guess. Now where did Maghog go? :headbang:

Just for the record. Thread started 05-11-2008 to 07-16-09, 172replies, 5,663views

You over it yet Punk? ;)

[[NA]WARLORD]

The captain of the team was none other than Billy Gardner. Billy saw an opportunity to make money, so after talking with Tom Kaye started his company (Smart Parts) to produce aftermarket pieces for the Automag.

Don't know where this was found, but it's not true. TK may have sponsored the AA's at one point in time, however, Smart Parts was making the All American barrel prior to the Automag's introduction to the sport. Hence, Billy G's company was already up and running.

[Lohman446]

However, you have to remember what making consisted of back then. Largely someone in the garage with very basic tools.

[GRimm]

You can even ask GRimm this, I was offered an on/off ASA for free for my Autococker as it needed a rail ASA, not a direct mount, and when I saw the SP crosshair I refused to take it. I did not want to use it for fear of risking my tank reg!


lol, I only took it because it can be used for target practice with a pellet gun. :D

[Watcher]

lol, I only took it because it can be used for target practice with a pellet gun. :D


Bring it over tomorow, we can blast it back to hell :shooting:

[Frizzle Fry]

WARLORD']Don't know where this was found, but it's not true. TK may have sponsored the AA's at one point in time, however, Smart Parts was making the All American barrel prior to the Automag's introduction to the sport. Hence, Billy G's company was already up and running.

The Gardner boys are not the original owners of SP. :rolleyes:

[[NA]WARLORD]

The Gardner boys are not the original owners of SP. :rolleyes:

Proof or propaganda from the Anti SP bandwagon ?

[Frizzle Fry]

WARLORD']Proof or propaganda from the Anti SP bandwagon ?

*edited because I remembered his name:

Kevin Rayman. He was a standup guy. Every once in a while I hear some SP basher saying he was hired in 1998 or 2002 or 2005 to clean up their act, but that name has been with SP since the earliest years as I recall, and my memory may be a little foggy.

Google result #1: http://www.pbuprising.com/invision/Kevin-Rayman-Smart-Parts-t16459.html

[[NA]WARLORD]

*edited because I remembered his name:

Kevin Rayman. He was a standup guy. Every once in a while I hear some SP basher saying he was hired in 1998 or 2002 or 2005 to clean up their act, but that name has been with SP since the earliest years as I recall, and my memory may be a little foggy.

Google result #1: http://www.pbuprising.com/invision/Kevin-Rayman-Smart-Parts-t16459.html

To be honest, that proves nothing ...

I found this on Warpig:

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/articles/news/kevinrayman/

Those guys have been around forever, and I would tend to believe them.

As well as an obituary for the "late" Kevin Rayman:

http://www.cannaya.net/?p=903

Found this on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Parts

Prominent members and employees

Smart Parts is a family-owned business that was started by William Gardner jr, reportably out of his garage. The company is jointly owned by him and his younger brother, Adam Gardner, and involves over 300 individual employees spanning two separate locations (manufacturing/engineering in Latrobe PA, and assembly/playfield/offices in Greenburg PA). The majority of the manufacturing employees are machinists and technicians related to the machine shop and/or production lines.

* William Gardner Jr.: Originally a buinessman by trade, however took an interest in manufacturing and pursued it after obtaining his business degree in the 80's. Founded the company Smart Parts in 1989.
* Adam Gardner: Co-owner; plays on team All Americans (Philly Americans in the NXL league). Provided development for the Impulse and Shocker Sport.
* William Gardner Sr.: Coordinates legal work as well as general shop operation.
* Most (if not all) of the production CAD work seems to be done by James DiBattista jr.
* Darrel Trent: Regional sales.
* Hans Semelsberger: Head of the engineering department, also involves coordinating the assembly effort and devices, production parts sourcing, etc.
* Aaron Stephens: Lead prototype engineer until 2001, when he left to pursue other projects (his developments for PMI/Evil followed). Development in the Impulse and other products around the turn of the century.
* Roderick Perry: Currently designated the general manager (machine shop, etc). His contributations included development for the Impulse, Shocker Sport, Max-Flo manifold tank systems, and various barrels over the years (notably the Freak).
* Sean Scott: General sales representative. One of few employees to have an online presence.
* Danial S Jones (aka "Legion", "TSF", "Nadsenoj"): Former machinist with expertise in metal manufacturing and mechanical engineering; contractually worked for Smart parts in 2001, was hired as lead prototype design engineer in 2002-present. Logistically, most functional items produced by Smart Parts post-2002 were the result of his design, notably including the following: Shocker SFT, closed bolt "Legion" Shocker (unreleased), Nerve, later model Impulse accessories, Ion/SP8/Epiphany, all regulators including Max-Flo Inline, Max-Flo Micro, vertical regulators as seen on the SFT line and later the Ion and NXT, LPRs used on Impulse and a later variant on the Nerve, as well as unreleased or shelved projects that have yet to be described. Also responsible for smaller developments such as the 360º QEV for the Ion, post-2001 Smartvalve ASAs and adapters, Ion solenoid (jointly developed by Smart Parts and Tri-Tech [manufacturer]), and miscellaneous equipment necessary for the assembly effort.
* Kevin Rayman: Advertising and creativity agent for the company since the early years. Passed away in September 2007.

Now, there are 3 different sources showing the "late" Mr.Rayman as an employee, and one with a brief history of the company. Now, we all know that wikipedia is more or less a forum anyone can post on, but so is this one, meaning it is no less a credible source then Wikipedia.

[mostpeople]

Kevin rayman was there from the beginning

[Shirow]

I don't really understand the point of this thread. You have just as much right to like Smart Parts as anyone does to hate them. Me? I never liked SP even before the whole patent debacle - I found their advertising pretty distasteful and so I never bought a single SP product anyway. After the whole patent ordeal? Just sealed the deal.

I'll never buy a Smart Parts item and if anyone ever asks me what I think of them I'll answer honestly. If you don't like the fact that people don't like Smart Parts.. well.. that sucks for you, I guess.

[breg]

punkncat - I have to say that the opening post of this thread was probably one of the most mature things written in a public forum that does not handle classical music as it main topic. I smiled when I read it. Mostly because I knew that many knee jerk reactionary anti SP zombie heads exploded a la "Scanners" upon reading it. Thank you, with those exploding heads the gene pool got a little deeper.

Ok, now for my two cents:

No, I do not agree with the bussines tactics that Smart Parts has employed. But, much like Wal-Mart is might be an unaviodable evil for those of us who are forced to do things like pay car insurance, rent, taxes, utilities, phones bills etc. See, I am pushing thirty. The folks stopped bankrolling me long, long ago. So, yes when I was in high school it was easy to take money I made and buy the uber expensive items. I mean, c'mon what was rent, utilities, or insurance? Now that I am older sometimes cheaper is not so much a bad thing. I've recently been looking at getting back into paintball and have been leaning towards SP because I can get a shocker for about half of what I would pay for an angel. Not that I would not rather have an angel, but money talks.
But, by and large, we are a community of pubescent and postpubescent males and a few females. What anyone chooses to spent money is not your bussiness, but rather their own. If they want to post pics and show off their new toy, and if you do not have anything positive to say or an actual earnest question to ask... leave it be. Just smile to yourself.
I remember when this whole thing went down... someone made a sig pic that showed the SP crosshairs morphing into a swastika. That kind of disturbed me. Made these forums look like some sort of awful white pride garbage dump.
But I digress...
Here is the absoltue bottom line:
Most of YOU would have done the same thing SP has done. I know that I would have if I could have gotten away with it. Ensure the life of my company for years, make more money, and put competetors out of business. Is it sneaky, underhanded, and downright mean? Yup. Bear that in mind next time your mom takes you to Wal-Mart to buy underwear. But, let's not forget that millions of dollars are at stake and that every company has the over all goal of making money. Do you know what the companys that did not put profit near the top are called? "Bankrupt."
Not that I do not like AGD, but I am in the market for an electro... and they just do not make one anymore, and the Shocker is the best thing in my price range. Sorry but facts are facts.
Welcome to everyday life, you can find your apron and cap in the office, and remember that the new sandiwch came out today so push the combo.

[robertsr1811]

I don't shop at Wal-Mart either.

You're voting with your wallet. So am I.

[Shirow]

Here is the absoltue bottom line:
Most of YOU would have done the same thing SP has done. I know that I would have if I could have gotten away with it. Ensure the life of my company for years, make more money, and put competetors out of business. Is it sneaky, underhanded, and downright mean? Yup. Bear that in mind next time your mom takes you to Wal-Mart to buy underwear. But, let's not forget that millions of dollars are at stake and that every company has the over all goal of making money. Do you know what the companys that did not put profit near the top are called? "Bankrupt."
Not that I do not like AGD, but I am in the market for an electro... and they just do not make one anymore, and the Shocker is the best thing in my price range. Sorry but facts are facts.
Welcome to everyday life, you can find your apron and cap in the office, and remember that the new sandiwch came out today so push the combo.

That's a bit of a leap. You might have done it. I wouldn't have. There are many, many companies out there that don't function in this way. This is still a fairly small industry and they knew full well the outcome of their actions.

If you want to buy a Shocker, that's fine - you don't have to justify it by insinuating that everyone would be a patent troll if they had the opportunity.


Do you know what the companys that did not put profit near the top are called? "Bankrupt."

Do you know what companies are called that exploit others in order to make money? Unscrupulous. There are plenty of successful companies that make a lot of money because they come out with good products that meet needs in the market better than others do. E.g., Google.

Then, there are others that make money because they sue other companies and exploit patents to put other companies out of business.

Also, your statement about being 30 and not getting money from your Mom - I think you'll probably find a large population of this forum is in the same kind of situation. I've been working for the same large company for the last 10 years and I'm fully aware of the world of business. However, one of the internal tenets that my company preaches (and practices) is 'Integrity' and 'Community'. They are still able to make a huge amount of money.

[SR_matt]

with the whole thing about SP making the best bang for your buck right now, just because you can buy something that does X at a lower price doesnt mean it will continue to do X. i can go buy a cheap knife for 10-25 bucks but it will lose it edge, chip, bend, or break a lot more easily than a knife i pay 40-60 for. you can buy and ion or shocker or what ever, ya its cheaper but the design might not lend it self to working for extended periods of time.

at this point the need for electros is starting to fade away since some of the tourney series have even gone down to 12.5 bps limits and with the ULT especially if you tune it to RT you can hit that. (granted i have really not paid attention to most stuff in the sport in the last few years between school and frankly not caring a whole lot since my mag works fine and i dont play enough to buy anything else)

i rarely have ever found where buying the cheaper option is better in the long run due to lower quality in the end
-matt

[Lohman446]

with the whole thing about SP making the best bang for your buck right now, just because you can buy something that does X at a lower price doesnt mean it will continue to do X. i can go buy a cheap knife for 10-25 bucks but it will lose it edge, chip, bend, or break a lot more easily than a knife i pay 40-60 for. you can buy and ion or shocker or what ever, ya its cheaper but the design might not lend it self to working for extended periods of time.

at this point the need for electros is starting to fade away since some of the tourney series have even gone down to 12.5 bps limits and with the ULT especially if you tune it to RT you can hit that. (granted i have really not paid attention to most stuff in the sport in the last few years between school and frankly not caring a whole lot since my mag works fine and i dont play enough to buy anything else)

i rarely have ever found where buying the cheaper option is better in the long run due to lower quality in the end
-matt

But, I never buy a marker intending to own it in three years (pumps being the exception) so as long as the life expectancy will get me through that (and it does) they work fine.

[SR_matt]

But, I never buy a marker intending to own it in three years (pumps being the exception) so as long as the life expectancy will get me through that (and it does) they work fine.
3 years? wtf, a computer i can see a 3 year life expectancy but a paintball gun come on. if a gun only lasted me 3 years i would never even look at that company again, yes i expect there to be some of the orings and other consumable to need to be replaced but if a gun stopped working after 3 years then it is a piece of total crap

-matt

[Lohman446]

3 years? wtf, a computer i can see a 3 year life expectancy but a paintball gun come on. if a gun only lasted me 3 years i would never even look at that company again, yes i expect there to be some of the orings and other consumable to need to be replaced but if a gun stopped working after 3 years then it is a piece of total crap

-matt

I've never kept one till death. There are still SFTs running around and shooting. The point is in a market that turns over every year building things to last decades is counter productive.

[Shirow]

I don't know if that's true. I've put more money into my automag in upgrades/changes than I did buying the original marker. I spent $150 on an Automag Classic in 2001. Since then, I've bought (directly from AGD):

A 68/4500 flatline
An intelliframe
New body
Warp feed
Various spare parts

Due to the quality of their parts and markers I've also convinced two friends I started paintballing with to buy Tac-One's.

I don't think consumers should justify buying poor products because it 'doesn't make business sense' to make things last a long time.

Now, whether SP products are 'junk' or not, I don't know, I've never owned one to comment. I do think it's disingenuous to sit here and say that markers should have short life expectancies to keep the market moving though.

[SR_matt]

I've never kept one till death. There are still SFTs running around and shooting. The point is in a market that turns over every year building things to last decades is counter productive.
so because new things come out so often thats a reason to make junky products??? with that logic a car should only last 2-5 years, and a computer should only last 6 months. its not counter productive to make things last longer, its lazy and greedy to make products cheaper and not last as long since you get to sell 2 or 3 to the person over X years instead of one

-matt

[Lohman446]

so because new things come out so often thats a reason to make junky products??? with that logic a car should only last 2-5 years, and a computer should only last 6 months. its not counter productive to make things last longer, its lazy and greedy to make products cheaper and not last as long since you get to sell 2 or 3 to the person over X years instead of one

-matt

How many people have any interest in shooting a marker over X years old? Why spend the money to buy something that is not used? Produce what the consumers want quality wise is the reason to make junky products

[Shirow]

How many people have any interest in shooting a marker over X years old? Why spend the money to buy something that is not used? Produce what the consumers want quality wise is the reason to make junky products

As evidenced by the BST boards on this forum, I think it is quite clear that there are many people that shoot a marker for more than 3 years.

I think the thread is derailing though - it's not the quality of SP product that has incited hate in most people that boycott them.

[punkncat]

The subject has taken a distinct turn, but I will bite.

I think that, yes many manufacturers have caught on to the fact that most paintball players only last about 6 months to a year or so. They are looking for bang for their buck. So, they designed these more cheaply made markers, that are more economical, and offer great performance for the price, but truly are not designed to last a lifetime of play. They are designed to last for that target amount of time that a player is going to get in, buy stuff, burn out, and leave the sport.

More discerning players, people who take a true long term interest in the sport are going to take the time to seek out the better made, and higher priced markers. It is an unfortunate side effect of the market right now, that the quality of even the high end has suffered in order to make the company competative on what little margin they have on the volume items. Corners had to be cut somewhere, and it seems quality was across the board for most.

[[NA]WARLORD]

Kevin rayman was there from the beginning

As an employee, not the original owner.

[snoopay700]

punkncat - I have to say that the opening post of this thread was probably one of the most mature things written in a public forum that does not handle classical music as it main topic. I smiled when I read it. Mostly because I knew that many knee jerk reactionary anti SP zombie heads exploded a la "Scanners" upon reading it. Thank you, with those exploding heads the gene pool got a little deeper.

Ok, now for my two cents:

No, I do not agree with the bussines tactics that Smart Parts has employed. But, much like Wal-Mart is might be an unaviodable evil for those of us who are forced to do things like pay car insurance, rent, taxes, utilities, phones bills etc. See, I am pushing thirty. The folks stopped bankrolling me long, long ago. So, yes when I was in high school it was easy to take money I made and buy the uber expensive items. I mean, c'mon what was rent, utilities, or insurance? Now that I am older sometimes cheaper is not so much a bad thing. I've recently been looking at getting back into paintball and have been leaning towards SP because I can get a shocker for about half of what I would pay for an angel. Not that I would not rather have an angel, but money talks.
But, by and large, we are a community of pubescent and postpubescent males and a few females. What anyone chooses to spent money is not your bussiness, but rather their own. If they want to post pics and show off their new toy, and if you do not have anything positive to say or an actual earnest question to ask... leave it be. Just smile to yourself.
I remember when this whole thing went down... someone made a sig pic that showed the SP crosshairs morphing into a swastika. That kind of disturbed me. Made these forums look like some sort of awful white pride garbage dump.
But I digress...
Here is the absoltue bottom line:
Most of YOU would have done the same thing SP has done. I know that I would have if I could have gotten away with it. Ensure the life of my company for years, make more money, and put competetors out of business. Is it sneaky, underhanded, and downright mean? Yup. Bear that in mind next time your mom takes you to Wal-Mart to buy underwear. But, let's not forget that millions of dollars are at stake and that every company has the over all goal of making money. Do you know what the companys that did not put profit near the top are called? "Bankrupt."
Not that I do not like AGD, but I am in the market for an electro... and they just do not make one anymore, and the Shocker is the best thing in my price range. Sorry but facts are facts.
Welcome to everyday life, you can find your apron and cap in the office, and remember that the new sandiwch came out today so push the combo.
Ok first thing i want to address here is that you assume all people that have a quarrel with smart parts feels they have to voice their opinion at every opportunity. I don't happen to like the company for a number of reasons, however i don't go around to everyone who has a smart parts marker and tell them how much i hate them, but if the topic comes up i will talk about it. I happen to know that there are a lot of people like this, but there are also a lot of people who just outright bash it at every opportunity. Please don't lump us into the same category.

As for cheaper being a good thing, i'm turning 20 this fall and i can respect that. Back when i got my markers i bought them used because it was a way to save money, and now that i am thinking about a new marker for if i start playing more next summer i know i can take comfort in the fact that there are great markers in the sub $350 range. I believe in the saying that the best way to let companies know what you want is to vote with your wallet, so i'm not going to buy from sp, even if i have to buy a used marker to get what i want. Saying that they are the only opportunity, especially when you are looking at a shocker, is just foolish. There are plenty of markers for around the same price or cheaper than a shocker that is as good if not better than a shocker regarding efficiency and weight (pretty much the only things that would make marker a better than marker b taking out personal preference regarding how it feels and such).

I also just want to put out there that i'm not going to pretend that sp doesn't make decent markers, i've had experience with some of them and they were fairly decent (although both of my run ins with shockers both of them had huge problems with the o-rings).

I agree that i have no right to tell anyone else what to buy, but when suggesting a marker i will suggest markers that are in the same price range as smart parts markers that have the same, if not better quality. I completely agree about the swastika avatar, i've seen it before and it's definitely too far. I already touched on the whole bashing people who already own them.

Also i have to agree with Shirow, i would not have done the same thing if i was in their position. If i had a business one of the main ideas behind it would be integrity, and i would think that doing something illegal would affect that image to my customers, so i can honestly say i would not act the same. I can name other people in this industry who have even opted to not patent a design so that it could help the sport grow.

So yeah, i tried to keep this post as clear as i could, but to sum it up, if you do have a problem with what smart parts has done then there is no reason to buy from them when there are plenty of other choices in the same range.

[Lohman446]

Know what? You're correct. Absolutely, positively, correct.

Anyone disputing what you've said should go watch the film "The Corporation."
Corporations are required by law to put one item above all others: profit. Philanthropy, playing fair and "being a nice guy" all come second.

I have no interest in any Smart Parts products so it would be easy for me to say "I don't buy SP gear."

Except, the other day, I did buy one. I bought a new Max Flo S.I.S. tank regulator. I did so because it actually had features I couldn't get in other regs. It's TINY, durable and available.

I'd rather be a shareholder in Smart Parts than AGD and I own an Automag and prefer them over any SP marker.

SP is privately held, and no a corporation is not required to put profit above all else. I will promise you that none of them I am involved in running will put profit before integrity. They are not held by nameless shareholders, they are held in this case by family. "We have to go for profit" is a BS excuse people use to get away with anything. Its simply not true. You have to be profitable to jsutify existance, you do not have to be so profitable as to run over every moral "bump" in the name of profit.

PS: I think they made a quality (enough) product. No not as good as AGD. I think they have a right to protect intellectual property (I think they bent the rules and took it way too far). I am normally an SP defender. However, "I did it for profit" is not an excuse, and needs to quit being accepted by the American people as a reason for a "no holds barred" attitude.

[Shirow]

SP is privately held, and no a corporation is not required to put profit above all else. I will promise you that none of them I am involved in running will put profit before integrity. They are not held by nameless shareholders, they are held in this case by family. "We have to go for profit" is a BS excuse people use to get away with anything. Its simply not true. You have to be profitable to jsutify existance, you do not have to be so profitable as to run over every moral "bump" in the name of profit.

PS: I think they made a quality (enough) product. No not as good as AGD. I think they have a right to protect intellectual property (I think they bent the rules and took it way too far). I am normally an SP defender. However, "I did it for profit" is not an excuse, and needs to quit being accepted by the American people as a reason for a "no holds barred" attitude.

Well said. Citing a movie is not valid backup to your claims :)

Yes, there are immoral companies out there. Yes, some of them have made a lot of money. You know what happened to some of the others? Enron is a name you might've heard of.

There ARE moral companies out there with integrity that are successful and make a profit.

You know what this thread has helped me do is to know who not to buy things from on the B/S/T forum - if your viewpoint is profit > * I'm not sure I want to risk sending you my money :p

[snoopay700]

SP is privately held, and no a corporation is not required to put profit above all else. I will promise you that none of them I am involved in running will put profit before integrity. They are not held by nameless shareholders, they are held in this case by family. "We have to go for profit" is a BS excuse people use to get away with anything. Its simply not true. You have to be profitable to jsutify existance, you do not have to be so profitable as to run over every moral "bump" in the name of profit.

PS: I think they made a quality (enough) product. No not as good as AGD. I think they have a right to protect intellectual property (I think they bent the rules and took it way too far). I am normally an SP defender. However, "I did it for profit" is not an excuse, and needs to quit being accepted by the American people as a reason for a "no holds barred" attitude.
Man, this is really odd, this is the second time i've found myself agreeing with you recently, and we usually have differing opinions on a lot of things.

But yeah, profit is never an excuse to sacrifice integrity. I mean back when AGD was one of the top two names in the business they got there by having integrity. Like Shirow said, there are companies that are successful that don't sacrifice integrity for profit.

[Lohman446]

Painting with a broad brush there Shirow. If someone bought something from me on the forum, in "new" condition, then decided they didn't like the colour, I would bend over and lose money to accept it in return, to maintain a 100% positive feedback rating.

As for SP: I wasn't aware it wasn't publicly traded. My point about the profit motive had to do with publicly traded corporations.

Publicly traded companies are NOT required to seek profit over all else. They are beholden to the stockholders and whatever motivates them, or more to the point there voting for the board or proxy votes. Some prefer to invest in a company with clearer long term goals than the profit now mentality. Some prefer to invest in companies with goals that are on a more moral level than profit now. Granted, most people invest with no consideration, but there is nothing saying a corporation has to seek as much profit as possible regardless of what it takes. The point is still wrong.

His point about not dealing with someone who has a viewpoint of profit over all else is not as much an attack as a point. You and I, and millions of other Americans find the view distasteful. We would never apply it to our personal or business dealings and yet we accept it easily when it is handed to us by people "just doing their job". Its BS. A lot of soldiers in history have followed orders and killed and tortured under the concept of "just doing their jobs" its not a valid excuse for that or any other immoral actions. Why do we accept it so easily from corporate America? No excuses, morality is morality, and allowing profit to come before morality shows a lack thereof. Why would you trust a corporation that does such? We need to respond to such outrages - just as people vote against SP with $$ so do we against those in corporate America who think the "just doing my job" nonsense excuses gross behavior.

[Shirow]

Painting with a broad brush there Shirow. If someone bought something from me on the forum, in "new" condition, then decided they didn't like the colour, I would bend over and lose money to accept it in return, to maintain a 100% positive feedback rating.

As for SP: I wasn't aware it wasn't publicly traded. My point about the profit motive had to do with publicly traded corporations.

CJ - just want to say, I was trying to make a point more than directly insult anyone. However - to be clear - the point I am making is that if a person validates 'profit over all' as an accepted lifestyle then I would assume they would apply that same belief to their own business tradings.

If not, it doesn't make sense to me that someone could accept that behavior from a company (which is nothing but a group of people making decisions) but find it unacceptable from an individual.

Capitalism is cool. Capitalism is great. That being said, morality and 'doing the right thing' is more important in life than money. If every company and every individual picked one thing they would pursue - money, fame, power or whatever - and pursued it as their top priority.. the world would be a hideous place.

[SR_matt]

i think the big issue in the SP situation (and in many other corporate groups) is that there are 2 ideas of capitalism a) that a lure of profit will gain a better profit for cheaper but it is assumed that people will be ideal in the actions and moral/truthful/etc; b) that the biggest return is what one wants, yet has a disregard of how it is gotten there and as long as it is "legal" it is ok

an example being a jeweler could sell you a piece of "silver" jewelry, one company sells you a solid sterling piece that follows the international guidelines of 92.5% by weight of pure silver minimum marked sterling and another company can sell you something that looks the same but is copper that is plated with silver yet only marks it as silver. both companies are following the law yet the second company is cheating you.

americans have come to accept "capitalism" as an excuse for figuring out how to make a product cheaper and faster yet maybe not as good of a quality. all of the economic and political systems are based off the assumption that everyone will act as an ideal individual yet humans get greedy and stop to care about their fellow man. it is a much larger issue that just someone pushing the letter of the law, it is the visible evidence to show that our society just cares about me me me, and now now now.

people just no longer understand the idea that a more the cheap option is rarely as good yet who cares, when i break it i will buy another one. dont get me wrong i am all for buying cheaper if the product will still get the job done (hell i just bout 100 bucks worth of tools that if i bought the "good" or "correct" version would have cost me 500+ but in the end i do the same amount of work to modify the tools and in the end they will last pretty much the same amount of time) but when i buy something that gets ran into the ground (like a paintball marker, or a computer) or something that i need to rely on (a vehicle, a carry weapon) you bet your life i will drop the cash even if it gives me a reasonable higher level of trust in the product.

as to smart parts, i probably have said this already just idk if it was here, i feel they went past the letter and for sure the spirit of the law, i feel most of their products are subpar (i will give them the max flows are good regs) but frankly when i joked on some one for owning an ion by saying "fart parts" and got the response of "smart parts, smart choice ~phsssssssssssssssssssss~" when a line blew out just standing there that sure tells me that even karma says they are a bad company :D

-matt

[Shirow]

Well, there's this saying.. maybe some of you have heard it..

Quality always shoots straight.

[Shirow]

On this we agree Shirow, unconditionally.

I follow a blog you might be interested in: Umair Haque at Harvard (http://blogs.harvardbusiness.org/haque/). He has some very relevant comments to make about "finance 1.0" (Capitalism 1.0?) in light of the recent financial meltdown and this discussion. This is a particularly good post of his: http://blogs.harvardbusiness.org/haque/2009/04/manifesto.html

We have similar tastes :) I've read that blog on occasion. He's a very astute guy.

[Tombola]

I haven´t read the entire threa, but one argument was: as long as sps behavior was in line with us laws ists ok what they did.

my feeling is that in this case the us law is bad. its like patenting the wheel somebody invented a long time ago. how is it possible that you get a thing patented that is in common use??
doesn´t make any sense to me.

i think the whole history in paintball is just another example how things went today. the cool guys are inventing something, doing their thing, are having their ideas and ideals, and in the end one businesguy jumps on the train and makes the scene a poular event.

thats also the current development here in berlin. berlin was widely known for its alternative club scene, all the small, funky selfmade locations with homegrown djs and stuff :-) and today more and more of them are subsituted by commercial venues that only pretending to be berlinlike hip, what they are in fact not.

its allways a sad to recognize that, even when you have been a part of the the origin.

normally thats the point where you make yourself comfortable in your niche.

maybe agd could have never made it in a normal business. i can´t imagine agd as a fancy company with a new hype marker every month, a own baggy pant line and cool tshirts, thats for shure:-)

but obviously thats the way things normally go in sports business.

i like the position agd is currently in. its special to have an automag. i hope one day there will be a new (maybe small run) automag that is light, mech/pneu or whatever, efficient, has a bit less kick and is ultra exclusive so that agd keeps his status of a rare and cool gun manufacturer but has something to offer to his fans.
honestly, i will buy it! :cheers:

just my 653ct :)

[ProblemKinder]

" Many companies have used the patent process to protect their intrest in a product. "

are we ignoring the fact that SP was protecting their interest in OTHER companies product, and then claimed it was their's all along?

are we ignoring the blatent disregard for compliance to proper patenting procedures that was practiced?

are you seriously posting this on THIS forum?

please don't assume that if SP hadn't 'done it' that somebody else would have. first of all, that does NOT, in ANY way justify the unethical actions. Secondly, don't be so quick to assume all paintball companies are as eager to throw business ethics out the window as SP was.

of course TK didn't get a C&D letter, he was smart enough to stop wasting money building a product he wouldn't be able to sell without paying SP rotalties they don't deserve. Had he kept building the E/X-mag he WOULD have gotten a C&D letter. duh.