motorcycle guys! and anyone

[MoeMag]

Howdy...

What is the BEST 600cc bike engine?
I'm talking stupid high preformance.

I was pointed toward a honda CBR600.

If you could have ANYTHING and mod it up (sans NOS). what would it be.

I dont really care about the bike... just the engine.

[DevilMan]

Pretty much any of the 600 supers these days are running the same.

I mean there are minor differences but when it comes to performance they level out pretty well from what I've seen. The most of the changes and such are how the person feels on the bike in distance to pegs and bars and such.

If you are looking to get an engine for a project I would look at what's available then do a google search of 600RR Engine Problems and such as that. There may be a few with recall issues like the oil sumps not designed right, or a cam bearing being faulty and such as that.

I'd also look into whether or not you want Carbs or Throttle Bodies... (IE Fuel Injection) That will play a vital part of your design. And lastly take into account common parts and electronic upgrades. When it comes to pipes and air intakes and such they all again come out equal in alot of ways, if you are doing a super duper grocery getting go kart idea then find out what engines have Power Commanders made for them that would allow you to remap the engines behavior.

Hope it helps... and good luck with the search.

OH and Screw NOS.... Get Blown!!!

DM

[sandfreestyle]

What is this going to be for? That will play the major part in what engine woud best suit your needs.

Every engine has its ups and downs. Some are better for stuning and others are best for drag/sandrail applications.

[oneworld]

Honda CBR all the way man...(RR of course) itl go FOREVER(friend has 118k on his) and they are much easier to maintain/work on IMO.

[pk5]

Engine: Depend on your purpose and what you really want out of it. Anything from the CBR or the one on the Buell will work just fine, just kinda depend on what you want the end result to be.

Beside that, are you planning on putting the engine on something else or just buy a bike because of it engine?

The only few that i can ride without having to tippie toe though are the: modified seat cbr, buell blast, and the SV650 . I like the SV650 but to each person their own taste.

[MoeMag]

Its gonna get messed up pretty good. I was just voted in to be in charge of my universities first Formula SAE race team. It was a big suprise for me today! there is a lot of work to do.

Check out some vids...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM3OvAolLcw <another Arizona team Video for this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmp1LiCY5dM <German teams...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ti5G4jFSo&feature=related


It has to run with a 20mm restrictor plate, some custom ECU, and at this point... a lot more than I can think... so that being said... at least a stable easy to get parts platform to mess around with.

I know a lot of you are into bikes... so its a great place to start. haha.

EDIT: oh yeah... fuel injection.

[skife]

Its gonna get messed up pretty good. I was just voted in to be in charge of my universities first Formula SAE race team. It was a big suprise for me today! there is a lot of work to do.

Check out some vids...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM3OvAolLcw <another Arizona team Video for this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmp1LiCY5dM <German teams...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ti5G4jFSo&feature=related


It has to run with a 20mm restrictor plate, some custom ECU, and at this point... a lot more than I can think... so that being said... at least a stable easy to get parts platform to mess around with.

I know a lot of you are into bikes... so its a great place to start. haha.

EDIT: oh yeah... fuel injection.

that last video was sweet how he just blew by that caterham

what are you going to be running for EFI? megasquirt?

[sandfreestyle]

Its gonna get messed up pretty good. I was just voted in to be in charge of my universities first Formula SAE race team. It was a big suprise for me today! there is a lot of work to do.

Check out some vids...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM3OvAolLcw <another Arizona team Video for this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmp1LiCY5dM <German teams...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ti5G4jFSo&feature=related


It has to run with a 20mm restrictor plate, some custom ECU, and at this point... a lot more than I can think... so that being said... at least a stable easy to get parts platform to mess around with.

I know a lot of you are into bikes... so its a great place to start. haha.

EDIT: oh yeah... fuel injection.
What are your engine displacement limitations? What mods are you limited to?

If I had a choice, I would go with a Hyabusa engine with a big bore kit and turbo. Make it run on alcohol/methanol and that should put you some where in the 500 HP range

[MoeMag]

that last video was sweet how he just blew by that caterham

what are you going to be running for EFI? megasquirt?

It will be some form of EFI. many of the teams have extensivly modified ECU controllers that quite honestly are beyond my understanding currently. a lot of teams join up with their IEEE clubs to design a system for their car. In our case we are very lucky to have a returning student who is a SAE certified mechanic in as far as we can tell EVERYTHING, who has a bach in electrical engineering. I had to look up megasquirt... def looks like something I need to look into.

We are just getting started.. so the honest answer is I dont know yet.


What are your engine displacement limitations? What mods are you limited to?

If I had a choice, I would go with a Hyabusa engine with a big bore kit and turbo. Make it run on alcohol/methanol and that should put you some where in the 500 HP range

Yeah. one of those cars with a decked out hyabusa would be a monster death trap. :dance:

but sadly...

it is a 610cc 4 stroke pistion engine with a 20mm restrictor plate running 93 octane (or a 19mm plate for E85). We can use force induction systems but the order of the assembly must be throttle body, restrictor, turbo, engine. Then we may not use any form of oxidizer to the fuel... so no NOS.

Other than that... the sky is the limit.

[sandfreestyle]

But what about a secondary fuel source?

I would make one that would inject alcohol/methanal only when the turbo spolled up to a certain speed or boost pressure. The engine will still run on 93 but the secondary source would only come on in the "staights".

[MoeMag]

But what about a secondary fuel source?

I would make one that would inject alcohol/methanal only when the turbo spolled up to a certain speed or boost pressure. The engine will still run on 93 but the secondary source would only come on in the "staights".

For your reading pleasure...

3.5.2 Fuels
The basic fuel available at competitions in the Formula SAE Series is unleaded
gasoline with an octane rating of 93 (R+M)/2 (approximately 98 RON). Other fuels
may be available at the discretion of the organizing body.
Unless otherwise announced by the individual organizing body, the fuel at
competitions in the Formula SAE Series will be provided by the organizer.
During all performance events the cars must be operated with the fuels provided by
the organizer at the competition.
Nothing may be added to the provided fuels. This prohibition includes nitrous oxide
or any other oxidizing agent.
Teams are advised that the fuel supplied in the United States is subject to various
federal and state regulations and may contain up to ten percent (10%) ethanol. The
exact chemical composition and physical characteristics of the available fuel may
not be known prior to the competition.
Consult the individual competition websites for fuel types and other information.

the rulebook is online...
http://students.sae.org/competitions/formulaseries/rules/rules.pdf

If anyone has any great ideas... I would sure appreciate it. Might even throw in a AO sticker on the car. and if anyone has anything really awesome... I would add ya to the contributers in the reports. Anyone who has contacts for sponsors would be a great help as well. cause these cars generally cost over 50k... and a few of the german teams are valued at nearly a half million. like this one...
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d53/MoeRoark/darmstadt2.jpg
That car has CUSTOM made pirelli tires.

[MoeMag]

From the sounds of things, you can have as many turbos/superchargers as you want as long as you design it. So take a lesson in early diesel tech and have a turbo pumping into a superchager. Oreven better, a turbo into turbo into supercharger. As long as your internal components are capable of the heat and pressure, you will be fine. A highly built stock cbr600rr engine can get about 500 HP with no power adders. Add the T/T/S combo and you may push the 1000 HP mark.

As for the transmission, think about a duel gear (H/L) before it gets to the axle. So when your going slower the low gear will give you added torque to power out of corners and the high will give you the speed for the straights. combine that with the 6 speed trans thats in the streebike engine already and that should be a good combo.

Wow... a TTS... thats intense. and probably beyond our means. but I will check it out.

as for the high low... Thats something I will bring to the table. Im worried about power loss with the added linkages tho.

I just had about a 2 hour crash course in small engine racing with my uncle. haha I was suprised to find out his midget sprint cars ran 600cc engines so he is right there with what we are after.

(oh hey NPPL is on FSN right now)

[sandfreestyle]

as for the high low... Thats something I will bring to the table. Im worried about power loss with the added linkages tho.
If it was activated via an air actuator, it would be simple. no clutch, linkage, lever. just an air source, actuator, and buttons.

send me an AIM message if you want more ideas. I have tons

[skife]

2 turbos into a super charger is going to restrict flow.


superchargers usually don't pump more than 11bls of boost or so, where the right turbo can put out 35lbs or more.


if you've got the option for E-85, use it.

but yeah, don't listen to the guy talking about a turbo into a superchager.

Hell, maybe just skip a forced induction motor all together, build a RACE motor for this, it doesn't have to be streetable, take the head in and get it ported, a set of racing cams, independant throttle bodies.


I don't think your issue is going to lack of power, i think its going to be getting the power to the ground.

[sandfreestyle]

2 turbos into a super charger is going to restrict flow.


superchargers usually don't pump more than 11bls of boost or so, where the right turbo can put out 35lbs or more.


if you've got the option for E-85, use it.

but yeah, don't listen to the guy talking about a turbo into a superchager.

Hell, maybe just skip a forced induction motor all together, build a RACE motor for this, it doesn't have to be streetable, take the head in and get it ported, a set of racing cams, independant throttle bodies.


I don't think your issue is going to lack of power, i think its going to be getting the power to the ground.
I can't help but wounder if you have experiance in high HP motors or even racing competatively. Yes the port/polish head with cams, ingnition, independent throttle bodies, pistons, rods, crank, etc. are all good, but it will still not be able to compete with the forced injected motors out there that have the same stuff done.

Ok, the TTS combo may have been over kill, but the TS combo is still being used today. Look at the most powerful streetable Hayabusa in the country, something like 1400 HP with a turbo pumping into a supercharger. Diesel trucks still use them to this day aswell and look at the numbers they can get.

The reason why going with the streetbike engine is because it makes a huge amount of power to wieght and it has an attached transmission. All of its power comes from up on the RPM and that's where they will be sitting at almost the entire time.

[MoeMag]

hey hey hey, no bad ideas here. dont bash eachother. the way ya win this is come up with something someone else hasnt done.

Remember 20mm restrictor AFTER a SINGLE throttle body. and a turbo may only be placed AFTER that directly to the engine.

PITA I know. but that just means I need to find power elseware.

[skife]

I can't help but wounder if you have experiance in high HP motors or even racing competatively. Yes the port/polish head with cams, ingnition, independent throttle bodies, pistons, rods, crank, etc. are all good, but it will still not be able to compete with the forced injected motors out there that have the same stuff done.

Ok, the TTS combo may have been over kill, but the TS combo is still being used today. Look at the most powerful streetable Hayabusa in the country, something like 1400 HP with a turbo pumping into a supercharger. Diesel trucks still use them to this day aswell and look at the numbers they can get.

The reason why going with the streetbike engine is because it makes a huge amount of power to wieght and it has an attached transmission. All of its power comes from up on the RPM and that's where they will be sitting at almost the entire time.




I've never seen a turbo to superchager in any race application.

anyways, what i'm trying to say is your running probably 750lbs of weight on this thing. any more than 200ish HP and your going to have a hell of a time keeping the tires on this thing from spinning. I'd focus more on the driving and suspension geometry for this thing than how much power it puts out.

also i seriously hope your exagerating those HP numbers, 1400hp streetable on a bike? I'm calling BS on this. thats like 1hp per cubic centimeter. i think 600hp on a 600cc bike isn't possible either.


after searching the internet the most i've found is about 700hp on a hayabusa. but lets say you can pump enough air and fuel into the motor, what are you using for fuel so you don't get detonation?

I'm not saying that you won't see much higher numbers with boost, But why complicate things when more simple things will suffice. Traction on these vehicles WILL be an issue.

[thahouse]

thats where weight placement and aerodynamics comes in place.. 'Busa engines are a smart choice, since they have high HP potential, especially with the proper boost setup. If you look at most drag bikes, most of them are heavily modified hayabusa's, but require alot of experimenting unless you have someone with experience in bike racing. As for traction, i would venture into perfecting the weight placement in the rear axle and design the cockpit to optimally disperse the majority of the weight of the vehicle in the rear.

Personally, i would venture into a 3 gear slapstick tranny. The logic behind this, is to utilize the low gear ratio for a better and more powerful takeoff, and the top two gears would be for turns and straightaways respectfully.

[thahouse]

after some thought, a dual turbo setup would work great, The only downside of this is that you have to spool up the turbos before you can even utilize them on the track...So, unless you have time to run the engine to spool up, the turbos may be a waste of an good investment. Read up on drag bikes. This will help you understand how to rebuild a high powered engine, and with the knowledge of engineers you say you have on the team, you can definitely utilize this to work as effectively on your project.

[skife]

after some thought, a dual turbo setup would work great, The only downside of this is that you have to spool up the turbos before you can even utilize them on the track...So, unless you have time to run the engine to spool up, the turbos may be a waste of an good investment. Read up on drag bikes. This will help you understand how to rebuild a high powered engine, and with the knowledge of engineers you say you have on the team, you can definitely utilize this to work as effectively on your project.

dual turbos are good, little one spools the big one :D

[Ferox]

There are alot of things to take into consideration when building something like this.

Power to weight ratios, Suspension geometry, Aerodynamics, Gear ratios, Gear boxes, etc..

As for the engine setup, Forced induction is always a great way to go but only when applied properly.. Feeding a turbo into a supercharger is not a viable option for any race application nor do modern performance or diesel engines use them. Your best option would be a twin turbo setup, with a twin turbo setup you can create a situation where you have a very smooth and flat power band eliminating any lag you'd get from a single turbo setup and giving you the power you need up top where a supercharger could not. Basically a small turbo feeding a larger turbo.

Much of this setup will also depend on intake runner and plenum design, If your runners are too long your motor will be very responsive in the lower rpm's but will make less power up top, same goes for short runners, lots of power up top, no power down below. A good way to cure this, is to use a medium runner design, with individual throttle bodies and air horns fabricated into the plenum, with the proper plenum design you can eliminate most of those problems. With plenum design you have to remember the key is Smooth and straight, if you have too many turns or bends in your intake setup the air will be very turbulent be time it enters the motor and will lose velocity, you especially don't want any sharp bends or turns, even in boosted applications this still comes into effect.

I would also suggest running two Injectors per cylinder, having an extra injector to fire methanol directly into the ports further up stream from the primary injectors will greatly reduce air charge temperature thus keeping the motor from detonating, and it will also greatly increase atomization of the fuel and air before it enters the combustion chamber..thus resulting in more horsepower.

As for the suspension , make sure you have caster and camber adjustments... both can be extremely helpful when fine tuning a race car. Also you will want to spend alot of time with weight distribution, you do not want to much weight in the rear of the car or you will end up with alot of under steer problems, and too much weight in the front will result in over steer problems. Also this can effect the way weight transfers from one corner of the chassis to the other in while turning.

I will post more ideas later after you have some time to digest this and such.

[MoeMag]

READ THIS POST! please.


3.5.4.3 Intake System Restrictor
In order to limit the power capability from the engine, a single circular restrictor
must be placed in the intake system between the throttle and the engine and all
engine airflow must pass through the restrictor. Any device that has the ability to
throttle the engine downstream of the restrictor is prohibited.
The maximum restrictor diameters are:
- Gasoline fueled cars - 20.0 mm (0.7874 inch)
- E-85 fueled cars – 19.0 mm (0.7480 inch)

TURBOS

3.5.4.4 Turbochargers & Superchargers
Turbochargers or superchargers are allowed if the competition team designs the
application. Engines that have been designed for and originally come equipped with
a turbocharger are not allowed to compete with the turbo installed.
The restrictor must be placed upstream of the compressor but after the carburetor or
throttle valve. Thus, the only sequence allowed is throttle, restrictor, compressor,
engine.

[Ninjeff]

yea, most 600cc class engines are running about the same now-a-days. I think the Yamaha feels really nice, but you cant beat Honda reliability.

[Ninjeff]

Its gonna get messed up pretty good. I was just voted in to be in charge of my universities first Formula SAE race team. It was a big suprise for me today! there is a lot of work to do.

Check out some vids...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM3OvAolLcw <another Arizona team Video for this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmp1LiCY5dM <German teams...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ti5G4jFSo&feature=related


It has to run with a 20mm restrictor plate, some custom ECU, and at this point... a lot more than I can think... so that being said... at least a stable easy to get parts platform to mess around with.

I know a lot of you are into bikes... so its a great place to start. haha.

EDIT: oh yeah... fuel injection.


!!!! :wow: Holy hell thats fast.


I want one.

[MoeMag]

!!!! :wow: Holy hell thats fast.


I want one.

Oh yeah.

Our baja team got tired of going slow. :D

They run about 400 pounds soaking wet
go 0-60 in around 3 seconds.
top out about 120mph

gnarly stuff.

[Hilltop Customs]

dont forget you cant build it like a drag bike where you push the engine to the limit for 7-8 seconds at a time, your going to be revving the hell out of that thing all the time. Honestly I'm with skife on this, underbuild the engine and worry more about putting the power to the ground.

sandfreestyle: I'm sorry if you think a 1400 hp busa is anywhere near streetable you are :tard: and must have never ridden a bike be4. Not to mention IF there is a busa is busa putting out 1400hp it probably has more time/money into it than MoeMag's SAE project is going to take. Stacking turbos and superchargers are not going to help anything if the flow into them is already limited by the plate....they cant compress air that isnt there, so they are effectively dead weight.

I'd worry more about aero, suspension, wheelbase, weight savings, ram air, the differential, effective engine cooling and other aspects that are not limited.....the great equalizer in HP is going to be the restrictor plate, only way you can get more HP is find a way to push/pull a higher velocity of air past that plate(hence ram air, but that will only work when your up to speed) Creating a vaccum(turbo/supercharger) on the back side of the plate wont be as effective as creating a high positive pressure on the outside. IMO getting the HP you have to the ground should be your main concern.

Is there a reason none of thses cars are running wings for downforce?

Any ideas on the tracks your going to be running on? From the looks of some of those videos a car with better handeling will easliy crush one that has more HP.

also like skife said, take a good hard look at e85, it will be more work(a lot more work seeing that info is not as widely available) but it has a lot of benifits.

I almost got in on our car, until I found out we had no chance to drive it, and all our work was property of the school(including ideas/intelectual property) After that I said screw that, I'll build my own after I get out of school in december. Already have a busa engine lined up :headbang:

[slade]

:( i wish my college had this competition. all my school cares about is math/science/research...

back to engine selection: really, any jap inline 4 engine will be about the same. take your pick of a honda CBR, suzuki GSXR, or yamaha R6.


the way ya win this is come up with something someone else hasnt done.
not really. with something that's been around as long as racing, especially when you're on a college team, the way you win is by doing what everyone else has done, just better.

[MoeMag]

:( i wish my college had this competition. all my school cares about is math/science/research...

back to engine selection: really, any jap inline 4 engine will be about the same. take your pick of a honda CBR, suzuki GSXR, or yamaha R6.


not really. with something that's been around as long as racing, especially when you're on a college team, the way you win is by doing what everyone else has done, just better.

I like that. We will do it better. A Quality shoots straight kinda thing

We settled on the Honda CBR600 engine today. A few of the people on the team have a lot of experience with them. That being said... I am confident in their backgrounds to take full use of the platform.

That leaves me, with just as many of you have said... the other aspects of the design.

we are running on fairly tight small tracks. Those vids are kinda deceptive... as a representation of the ture nature of the various aspects of competition.

I think the Handling is more important that HP idea is right on.

So... how does one get all that power to the ground, as light as possible, and be able to control the monster.

so im really tired and leave it at that for now. im headed to sleep. be back for more.
:cheers:

[slade]

keep us updated. i'm almost considering trying to get some sort of team together for my college (either robotics or racing... probably not going to happen considering the workload here)

just out of curiosity, what college do you go to? i would assume youre a mech-e major

[Hilltop Customs]

other than the initial design, getting the power to the ground is one of those things that has to be dialed in at each track.

I'm guessing you are going with double a-arm independent suspension with remote mounted coil overs(using a rod mounted to the lower A arm to turn a cam located on the upper frame which compresses the coilover) in both the front and rear. Its what most open wheel cars use from what Ive seen. It gets the coil over under some body work so it doesnt create drag and keeps it centrally located in the car. It also makes ride height adjustable independent of spring pre load, basically it is the suspension what you want to use. Just make sure to keep everything adjustable....the angle/lengths of your A-arms will have a huge impact on your camber as your suspension compresses. Do you get a general idea of suspension geometry or do you have to just wing it and look up everything for yourself? If it was me and they provide you with no info, I would probably look up the top competitors from past years, find pics of their cars and calculate every possible measurement you can(get some digital pictures and use them to produce 3 views and then build models in solidworks/cad/whatever you use). Reverse engineering FTW literally.

Spring rate will a pita to figure out untill the car is finished and you know how much weight is on each tire, but dual rate springs will probably be needed.....dampening and rebound will have to be adjustable on the shocks.

Keeping the CG low and centered will play a big role in traction.....dont forget to include the driver when figuring where the CG will be located.

IDK i'm half asleep, most of the crap ive said is just genral stuff that you probably already have talked about.



if you really need some ideas look up the ariel atom lol

Where do you go to school and whats your major?

[MoeMag]

I already have a few other teams engineering documents regarding their designs, and LOTS of pictures. So I at least have an Idea of where to start. but yeah, what we do is pretty much up to us. Our team learned a lot about off road long travel suspension, and our design leaders work has been genius. He is going into his junior year and is already working at the GM proving grounds. We have a lot of people in our program who I have a lot of faith in.

Then...
My uncle has some experience with Indy cars from about 15 years ago, and his recent retirement hobby with outlaw 600cc sprint cars, which has been a lot of help.

I’m very much worried about over steer after talking to my uncle, and what seems to be a common concern here regarding the high power of the engine vs. handling. We are not building a drag or even an oval track car. He said that indy cars would be so much more fun if going into a turn wasn’t a leap of faith that everything would work right, and that the only reason the sprint cars stay on the ground is because of their huge wing area coupled with their extraordinary speed.

It was his opinion that the use of very sticky tires would be our best bet, along with making the suspension as stiff as possible, to make the suspension geometry as simple as possible.

There is only one team I can think of that uses wings for down force, and if you watch those youtube vids, you should find them in the related vid stuff fairly easily. I was told that one of the key members of their team was an aerospace guy, who was trying to prove a point.
I will say, he did prove his point. I don’t remember off hand but I think I was told they won the design division, but that their performance in the dynamic events wasn’t outstanding.

EDIT: they put too much into the wing and not the engine... this is their car at competition...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyhXpULz5YU&feature=related

It’s the general convention that the uses of wings are fairly impractical. The size of wing needed to have effective down force at the relatively low speeds around most of the course don’t seem to warrant their use.



The Atom is really awesome. I love the top gear bit they did on it...
<a href="http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=23702513">Top Gear: Atom</a><br><embed src="http://lads.myspace.com/videos/vplayer.swf" flashvars="m=23702513&v=2&type=video" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="430" height="346"></embed>

As for me...

I go to Arizona State University Polytechnic. I'm starting my senior year in the Mechanical engineering program with a concentration in Aerospace.

I am the treasurer for our SAE chapter, and I have been the main fabricator for our baja team this year (we are going to Peoria Illinois for our competition here in another two weeks.) being able to hone my manufacturing skills working on our car this year has been incredible. At the start of the year, I knew very little. Now, I can use any manual Mill or Lathe very well, I know CNC lathe programming and operation like the back of my hand now because of my soda can 2.6" cannon, and I am just starting to get comfortable with the CNC mill programming.

We have a great little program out here, its just nobody has really utilized our resources to the fullest, and being my senior year... I want to go out in style.

[slade]

I think I'd go for a KTM X-bow over an Ariel Atom.

any updates on the project?

[Hilltop Customs]

I think I'd go for a KTM X-bow over an Ariel Atom.

any updates on the project?

woah, didnt know KTM was making a car. Looks.....ehhhh.....ugly as sin. lol cant wait to see a vid of a race between them. I'd love to take either one out on a track.