Open discussion for unrealistic pro-classic replacements?

[aqua_scummm]

So now that the pro-classic is "out of stock", sadly, what would you like to see AGD create to replace it?

The discussion likely won't result in anything, but what the hell, it's the internet, and we can discuss it :)


I'd like to see them clear out the stainless steel classic valves near their cost, and start making them out of aluminum, which would be cheaper material, less tool-time, and still pretty darn reliable. It may not be the amazing lifetime material of the current classic valves, but the X-Valves don't seem to have any issues.

That paired with a simple rail, the single trigger gripframe, and maybe even an even cheaper to mill ULE style body, I think, would cut a lot of market share out of Kingmann and Tippmann's grasp on the mechanical area.


I think it'd be awesome if they sold a gripframe that had mounting points for things. Like pneu-mag ready. But since that may or may not be patented, just say "for things to be mounted inside your gripframe". I duno, I suck at the legality thing, but you get the idea ;)





Any other ideas?

[going_home]

Thats already being done . Its called an RT Pro or a Tac One . I think they are stocking what sells and the Classics were slow movers .

[aqua_scummm]

Thats already being done . Its called an RT Pro or a Tac One . I think they are stocking what sells and the Classics were slow movers .

Not at all :rolleyes: Not everyone wants to spend that much on a valve, the point of the aluminum valves I mentioned is to make them cheaper for those who don't need the RT, not make mags even less affordable.

To get a good market, AGD's going to need to start getting fresh players, and it's harder to do that with a $500 marker than a $200 marker.

[marked74]

To get a good market, AGD's going to need to start getting fresh players, and it's harder to do that with a $500 marker than a $200 marker.

Especially when the $200 marker is an electro and can boast some ludicrous bps rate. Seems that's what the kids want these days...

[chafnerjr]

Especially when the $200 marker is an electro and can boast some ludicrous bps rate. Seems that's what the kids want these days...

No kidding huh! I still remember my first tourny when we used a spyder, a pro-lite, and a 68 carbine to win against two original angels, and a shocker!

Oddly enough we got our butts whooped on the woods course, and then lost the next round on the speedball course, but man those were good times... quite some time ago tough. :cheers:

[paintball72]

i agree with aqua a cheap marker (in price not quality, use the ideas aqua had) in this age of people only staying in the sport 2-3 years would be a good way to get more buyers.
just my .02

[questionful]

How much did classic valves cost when they were new? I don't think there is much different in RT valves to make them more expensive than classic valves. So while I think an aluminum classic valve is a great idea, I don't think it would be much more affordable than the RT option. What I think AGD should do is keep a great quality valve (maybe even an X-valve) and make the rest of the marker cheapened down versions of mag parts.

I don't know much about manufacturing parts, but here are some ideas.

Rail: I think the rail should be integrated into either the body or frame. Probably the frame. The sear pin could be press fit.

Frame: I think a double trigger CF frame would sell well. I don't know how expensive that material is, but it looks cheaper than anything aluminum.

Body: I think the main difficulty in the body is the washer. I was thinking the body could be a stainless or aluminum insert held in a CF body. Or plastic, or any other cheap material that could take a little damage. The insert would be the barrel threads, breach, feedneck threads, some sort of detent, framescrew threads, and the washer. So it would just be about 2" long. The body material would have to be able to take the bolt's friction though. Hm. Well just an idea.

So basically it would be a plastic (or similar material) gun, as SP did with the ones that came out a few months ago, whatever they're called. I think this could cost less than $300.

PS
Whoa I just found this!
http://www.palmer-pursuit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=96&products_id=955
cool!

[ThePixelGuru]

Yeah, that'd all be nice... too bad AGD won't do it. As long as they stay in business, though, I'm okay with that.

[the mag guy]

Everybody here has some really good points. I haven't read up on AGD's current market strategy, but it really needs to change. They are targeting a niche group only. They need to diversify to be able to compete.

Their biggest problem back in the day besides price was their reputation. They have always made great quality guns, but bad publicity due to word of mouth. Think about it, the internet was nothing back then. When I did my research to purchase my first "nice" gun I chose the cocker over the mag because of professional opinions and player preferences around the fields. Go to any autococker thread, their arrogance is amazing.

Years later when I purchased my first mag I realized what I was missing out on. Basically everyone here thinks that mags are great, trust me they are. The problem is you can still go to a field today an you'll still hear "mags suck" with no reason or purpose.

With this in mind they cannot keep selling the same product at the same high price, it just wont work. I think AGD has always had the mindset of "See our gun, this is what we have to offer" when they should be focusing on what people want.

One really good way AGD can cut costs is improve their supply chain and vertical integration. What i mean by that is how much of the process they own from raw materials until it rolls out for sale. The more of this process they own, the cheaper it is for them to produce the gun therefore dropping total costs.

I really think AGD is going to have to end up making a cheaper gun, show everybody how good they still are and how well they perform. Heck it might have to be a radical different design from the mag. They really need something that can compete with spyders and tippmans but still romp on an ION. I am not in any way saying to get rid of the mag, I'm just saying you need a diverse selection available if you want to successfully compete. I dont know if any of y'all have been to Walmart, Academy, Gander Mtn, or any other sporting good's section, but all you see is low end electro spyders, tippys and their knock offs.

My suggestions:

Though looked down upon by us high class mag owners, AGD needs to cater to the masses to survive. Cater to the younger audience, I don't mind. I'd rather see AGD produce a low end electical ION knock off than not be around at all. I am a loyal customer and I always will be. I'd like to see the mag eventually evolve as well.
As for mag improvements or places to cut cost... Do what WGP did, have a butt load of accessories. Why was the Slug body removed from the market? bring it back and CC the crud out of it. I really liked the body and rail as one piece idea, combine that with the aluminum valve, make a composite double finger trigger and I think the costs would be able to be dropped drastically.
The one thing I would like to improve on the mag is the stock trigger pull. I mean c'mon, who really likes it? It was the main reason I converted to a pneu mag. Maybe have an aluminum powerfeed body. I love my vert feed ULE, but I also like being able to look all the way down the top my compact little mag, so people might find it easier to aim.

[EclipseClassic]

Hate to say it but ya'll are beating a dead horse. The topic of how AGD should go about marketing and creating new products is extremely over discussed. AGD isn't going to launch a massive marketing campaign and build a low cost, low quality marker. I doubt they have the money to do so. It's a dwendling company, everybody knows it. They have a niche market and they are running lean and that is fine. I have no complaints as long as they sell parts kits and keep the website updated. They have downsized in order to survive in a extremely competitive and somewhat monoplistic market. Paintball isn't what it used to be unfortunately. There is will always be pure AGD fans, so stick to your classic and if you want something else, buy it.

[cyrus-the-virus]

...an aluminum classic valve would cost about the same as a X-valve, doing what you just mentioned you have just created an RT-pro without the RT :rofl: it would cost the same amount too.

The only real way AGD could "bounce back" is to Make an e-pneu mag like logics. But that would put it in the price range of your avrage DM or EGO which are "better" than the old fashioned automag..... Even with advertising it woulden't go anywhere.

Until SP crashes and burns AGD will be stuck making high end mechanicel markers.

[aqua_scummm]

...an aluminum classic valve would cost about the same as a X-valve, doing what you just mentioned you have just created an RT-pro without the RT :rofl: it would cost the same amount too.

you gotta think of the CO2 users too though, which is why I'd say stick with the classic style

[JesseB]

Not gonna happen. TK is too busy looking at the stars to develop a new strategy to revolutionize the sport any more than he has or to revamp AGD.

Personaly I would like to see some AGD gear coming out like clothes, masks, hopper shells, bodys for markers, cheap older style mag stuff (PF bodys, simple rails maybe aluminum classic valve) a pump mag, maybe a plastic bodied mag for the low end, open source gun kits.

[paint magnet]

Not gonna happen. TK is too busy looking at the stars to develop a new strategy to revolutionize the sport any more than he has or to revamp AGD.


Considering Tom has done more for the sport of paintball than anyone else I can think of to only have others profit off his inventions, I can't blame him for being fed up with it, and neither should you.


Personaly I would like to see some AGD gear coming out like clothes, masks, hopper shells, bodys for markers, cheap older style mag stuff (PF bodys, simple rails maybe aluminum classic valve) a pump mag, maybe a plastic bodied mag for the low end, open source gun kits.

AGD has been manufacturing "cheap" PF bodies and simple (AM/MM) rails since they began production of the AutoMag. There hasn't been a huge market for non-vert feed markers for the last several years. I don't think you realize the expense that goes into making a body out of stainless steel held to AutoMag tolerances--if it were that simple then other companies would have done it. Besides, PF bodies and rails are readily available on the forums and with current market trends, I doubt many people are willing to pay out for brand new valves, rails, etc. And why make a plastic-bodies Mag? Reliability is one of the Mag's main selling points.

As for "low-end, open-source gun kits," most Mags I've seen sell for $120 or less, and still work as good as new. It's hard to sell new guns when your old ones are still on the market and working at less than half the price.

[JesseB]

Considering Tom has done more for the sport of paintball than anyone else I can think of to only have others profit off his inventions, I can't blame him for being fed up with it, and neither should you.



AGD has been manufacturing "cheap" PF bodies and simple (AM/MM) rails since they began production of the AutoMag. There hasn't been a huge market for non-vert feed markers for the last several years. I don't think you realize the expense that goes into making a body out of stainless steel held to AutoMag tolerances--if it were that simple then other companies would have done it. Besides, PF bodies and rails are readily available on the forums and with current market trends, I doubt many people are willing to pay out for brand new valves, rails, etc. And why make a plastic-bodies Mag? Reliability is one of the Mag's main selling points.

As for "low-end, open-source gun kits," most Mags I've seen sell for $120 or less, and still work as good as new. It's hard to sell new guns when your old ones are still on the market and working at less than half the price.

Tom has done more for the community than anyone but none of his peers give him the respect that he deserves... Major marker manufacturers should be begging to collaborate with him not serving him with c&d orders. Did I ever say I blamed him? no. Just stating he has other interests he is involved in where he feels he is doing better work than paintball.


should edit my post I guess I didn't mean low end open source guns I meant like pneu ready frames and maybe valves with different specs, regs rams and other stuff for different applications.

Plastic bodies for the low end would be a good Idea though it would reduce manufacturing costs and weight plus you have color options and styling options. you could just sleeve the inside of the body and incorporate a rail/foregrip into it and voila all in one mag just add valve and barrel and you are ready to rock. I'd rather see kids rocking those than Ions.

Cheap bodies? like 40-50 dollars cheap? noooo like 100-150 dollars cheap.... ( I don't know exact store prices so don't stress the point) I dont see why a no rise automag body would be so taxing to produce that it cost's that much. I've seen drilling bits, reamers, plungers, pony rods and all kinds of other precision machine work mass produced and honestly they are more painstaking than paintball parts and they don't fetch nearly the premium that gun parts do. Automag bodies would be cake to produce once you had the process locked down and some solid labor.


And honestly from what you said I think you hit the nail on the head. "Besides, PF bodies and rails are readily available on the forums and with current market trends, I doubt many people are willing to pay out for brand new valves, rails, etc." AO is probably effectively killing the company of AGD. Sucking new marker, parts, and accesories sales away from AGD and into the BST forums or other dealers who have started manufacturing third party junk and charging hundreds of dollars for a body and rail combo... Companies that don't generate revenue don't do very well.

Personally I have never bought a new mag from AGD and I have owned 10 different mags that I have bought and pieced together or traded for. That's just the nature of the beast though they make a quality product that out lasts paintball careers and attention spans so they are readily available...

And I don't think I will ever buy a new gun from AGD honestly... I would prefer buying used just because I don't feel the guns are worth the premium price that they are asking for them especially with the newest generation of paint flingers being superior in most aspects I look for in guns for a cheaper price. (compare DP g3 to automag RT price, weight, bps, features, consistency, stock barrel and efficency and anyone but a diehard mag'r will admit the Dangerous Power G3 wins.) Mags will be hear as long as AO is around. but if the community falters the Mag will be done.

[sffudapparel]

but if the community falters the Mag will be done.




:cry: :cry:

Hopefully it'll never happen. If it starts to, AO party at my house! :cheers:

[ThePixelGuru]

Everybody here has some really good points. I haven't read up on AGD's current market strategy, but it really needs to change. They are targeting a niche group only. They need to diversify to be able to compete.

....

With this in mind they cannot keep selling the same product at the same high price, it just wont work. I think AGD has always had the mindset of "See our gun, this is what we have to offer" when they should be focusing on what people want.
AGD used to be a lot bigger than it is now, and AGD did listen to what everyone wanted in order to develop new products. The R/T is the result of that, and people ended up being afraid of HPA and thinking that the R/T chopped because they didn't have fast enough hoppers. The problem with the paintball market is that the consumer is fickle, and often doesn't even know what he wants.


One really good way AGD can cut costs is improve their supply chain and vertical integration. What i mean by that is how much of the process they own from raw materials until it rolls out for sale. The more of this process they own, the cheaper it is for them to produce the gun therefore dropping total costs.

I really think AGD is going to have to end up making a cheaper gun, show everybody how good they still are and how well they perform. Heck it might have to be a radical different design from the mag. They really need something that can compete with spyders and tippmans but still romp on an ION. I am not in any way saying to get rid of the mag, I'm just saying you need a diverse selection available if you want to successfully compete. I dont know if any of y'all have been to Walmart, Academy, Gander Mtn, or any other sporting good's section, but all you see is low end electro spyders, tippys and their knock offs.
Nope. You seem to think that getting bigger is the best plan, but it's really not. AGD was big, and downsizing was a smart business move. They're not going to start buying up factories, especially since they just moved to a residential address. Before you say that was a bad idea, consider how many similar companies folded, and that AGD survived that rough patch by scaling down their operations.


My suggestions:

Though looked down upon by us high class mag owners, AGD needs to cater to the masses to survive. Cater to the younger audience, I don't mind. I'd rather see AGD produce a low end electical ION knock off than not be around at all. I am a loyal customer and I always will be. I'd like to see the mag eventually evolve as well.
As for mag improvements or places to cut cost... Do what WGP did, have a butt load of accessories. Why was the Slug body removed from the market? bring it back and CC the crud out of it. I really liked the body and rail as one piece idea, combine that with the aluminum valve, make a composite double finger trigger and I think the costs would be able to be dropped drastically.
The one thing I would like to improve on the mag is the stock trigger pull. I mean c'mon, who really likes it? It was the main reason I converted to a pneu mag. Maybe have an aluminum powerfeed body. I love my vert feed ULE, but I also like being able to look all the way down the top my compact little mag, so people might find it easier to aim.
AGD won't produce an electro because of what Smart Parts has done to that section of the market. As for following WGP's example, well, WGP just closed their doors and sold off their inventory on eBay. Not the path I'd follow. As for the stock trigger pull, you can already fix that with the ULT. Concerning CNCing integrated rails and bodies, they're not going to lay down the R+D and production money for something that already exists through other companies.

AGD is a niche company, and they're making the smart moves to survive. I'd rather see them stay small and still be able to buy replacement parts for my 'mag than watch them make some big, bold business move and fold like so many other paintball companies.


And I don't think I will ever buy a new gun from AGD honestly... I would prefer buying used just because I don't feel the guns are worth the premium price that they are asking for them especially with the newest generation of paint flingers being superior in most aspects I look for in guns for a cheaper price. (compare DP g3 to automag RT price, weight, bps, features, consistency, stock barrel and efficency and anyone but a diehard mag'r will admit the Dangerous Power G3 wins.) Mags will be hear as long as AO is around. but if the community falters the Mag will be done.
That's missing the point of what AGD does. They don't produce cheap, fast, plastic electros, they produce high-end, reliable durable mechs. Would you really buy a plastic 'mag? I doubt many (if any) on AO would, and the ION crowd is just going to keep shooting the latest SP flavor of the month and would never give the 'mag a chance. I shoot Automags because they're not cheap fast paint-flingers. If that's what I was looking for, I wouldn't be here.

AGD should just keep on keepin' on, that's what they've been doing and they're still here, still one of the oldest and best paintball companies. I could care less that they don't make a new edition of the 'mag every year with some crap milling and lame body kit. I shoot AGD's markers because I like what they do, I don't feel that they need to change, and, above all, because quality always shoots straight. :headbang:

[paint magnet]

should edit my post I guess I didn't mean low end open source guns I meant like pneu ready frames and maybe valves with different specs, regs rams and other stuff for different applications.

Why valves with different specs? Part of the beauty of the Mag is that everything is backwards compatible.


Plastic bodies for the low end would be a good Idea though it would reduce manufacturing costs and weight plus you have color options and styling options. you could just sleeve the inside of the body and incorporate a rail/foregrip into it and voila all in one mag just add valve and barrel and you are ready to rock. I'd rather see kids rocking those than Ions.

I still don't see the point of plastic bodies. The Mag body is already practically a "sleeve," and putting a plastic shell around it would add weight and increase manufacturing costs. Would it really be easier to incorporate a foregrip into the body, or install the one screw it takes to attach a foregrip? :confused:


Cheap bodies? like 40-50 dollars cheap? noooo like 100-150 dollars cheap.... ( I don't know exact store prices so don't stress the point) I dont see why a no rise automag body would be so taxing to produce that it cost's that much. I've seen drilling bits, reamers, plungers, pony rods and all kinds of other precision machine work mass produced and honestly they are more painstaking than paintball parts and they don't fetch nearly the premium that gun parts do. Automag bodies would be cake to produce once you had the process locked down and some solid labor.

Most of the parts you're talking about are also sold on a much larger scale. Take a Ruger 10/22 bolt, for instance. Much more labor intensive to machine than say, an AutoMag body, but when half of America owns a 10/22, the cost goes waaaaay down. I haven't been keeping up with prices on the forums that much, but it wasn't uncommon to see SS bodies go for $20-30.


(compare DP g3 to automag RT price, weight, bps, features, consistency, stock barrel and efficency and anyone but a diehard mag'r will admit the Dangerous Power G3 wins.) Mags will be hear as long as AO is around. but if the community falters the Mag will be done.

I have shot a G3. When it's been around for 20 years and all the parts are interchangeable, I will consider buying one and concede that it's better than the Mag.

[JesseB]

Why valves with different specs? Part of the beauty of the Mag is that everything is backwards compatible.
For an open source gun not for an Automag, something that is smaller lighter will fit in a smaller shell for airsoft to paintball mods, something that you can do something new and fresh with. read the title of the thread again it says unrealistic... I just thought it would be a cool idea to have more options when you are retrofitting stuff of doing a ground up build




I still don't see the point of plastic bodies. The Mag body is already practically a "sleeve," and putting a plastic shell around it would add weight and increase manufacturing costs. Would it really be easier to incorporate a foregrip into the body, or install the one screw it takes to attach a foregrip? :confused:

plastic would let you do so much cool stuff and an aluminum sleeve inside would reinforce it and give you something to thread the feed tube, detents, and barrel into. once again the thread says unrealistic... why spend so much time tearing apart a post?




Most of the parts you're talking about are also sold on a much larger scale. Take a Ruger 10/22 bolt, for instance. Much more labor intensive to machine than say, an AutoMag body, but when half of America owns a 10/22, the cost goes waaaaay down. I haven't been keeping up with prices on the forums that much, but it wasn't uncommon to see SS bodies go for $20-30.

I have a Ruger and I can honestly say nothing on that gun is as well put together as a mag. They are great guns don't get me wrong but seriously there is a lot more time and effort put into just the welding and grinding on a mag than the whole milling of that ruger receiver hell mine has tool marks on it underneath the wood, probably to cut costs... It's pretty obvious you don't know what you are talking about at this point. Ruger = cheap and readily available. there is no comparison to be made...

Most of the parts I'm talking about are manufactured by the thousand or so per month and are made of high quality material in really big expensive machines that suck a lot of power by skilled operators who demand top dollar similar to AGD Quality starts at the beginning . The rinky dink parts you are referring to are out sourced to the lowest bidder who is spitting them out and has such crappy tolerances that I've had to replace the bolt in my .22 2 times since I bought it in 2000. Funny how my Browning Sporting clays gun has alot more recoil and I shoot it alot more but it never breaks....




I have shot a G3. When it's been around for 20 years and all the parts are interchangeable, I will consider buying one and concede that it's better than the Mag.

see that is a narrow minded fan boy perspective and while it's fine and acceptable in this environment it's just not a logical way to make a decision in the real world. The G3 is definitely a better buy than a new mag. The resale may not be the same percentage. But at least it will shoot almost a case of paint off a 68/4k fill, lighter, faster, blah blah blah.... I'm not trying to sell guns or change anyones mind just my opinion....

And remember the thread says unrealistic... be a little more open minded you jerks.

[punkncat]

To be honest, and no offence intended to the above poster, but to say that any marker is "better" than a mag we really have to decide what we are comparing.
Are we all in agreement that ROF makes one marker "better"? I am not, and I am sure many others are not as well.
Is weight what makes it better? Considering the ounces in difference between a well thought out Mag and even the lightest of any other make....throw on a tank, a hopper, and paint and the differences are negligable at best.
Are features what makes it better? I guess that is according to who is using it and for what. There are many people involved in paintball who never use anything more feature packed than a clone or tippy available at Dick's or Wally World. To them features mean nothing and have no importance at all. They constitute the majority of players, so who are these "feature packed" markers catering to? Not the core players.
If we are talking about durability and ease of maintanence I do not think anyone could disagree that Mags win hands down FAR above any other marker made. There simply isn't enough to break or replace.
The ONLY shortcoming to a mag IMO is the efficiency issue. That alone does not constitute on its own merit anything else being "better" when considered at its basic ability to do what every other paint marker does. Put paintballs downfield.

All these bells, whistles, features, lightness, etc. in todays marker, that incidentaly you will not be able to find parts for in five years, do not by any means make them the pinnicle of design. Throw one of those markers in a bucket of water and see what happens. Go try to find parts for many of the older electros....
Do the same with a Mag.
When you can't use the others, which one is "better" now?

Now I don't want you to be confused into thinking that I think that the Mag is the only marker out there, or that some fanboi attitude has blinded me into thinking it is the only marker I need for all situations...but I can tell you this. As was stated above, in 20 years (assuming that the same "common" air source is available) I go and gas up any of the markers I currently own I know where my money will be on which one will actually work, or more specifically will be easily be repaired to.

[JesseB]

To be honest, and no offence intended to the above poster, but to say that any marker is "better" than a mag we really have to decide what we are comparing.
Are we all in agreement that ROF makes one marker "better"? I am not, and I am sure many others are not as well.
Is weight what makes it better? Considering the ounces in difference between a well thought out Mag and even the lightest of any other make....throw on a tank, a hopper, and paint and the differences are negligable at best.
Are features what makes it better? I guess that is according to who is using it and for what. There are many people involved in paintball who never use anything more feature packed than a clone or tippy available at Dick's or Wally World. To them features mean nothing and have no importance at all. They constitute the majority of players, so who are these "feature packed" markers catering to? Not the core players.
If we are talking about durability and ease of maintanence I do not think anyone could disagree that Mags win hands down FAR above any other marker made. There simply isn't enough to break or replace.
The ONLY shortcoming to a mag IMO is the efficiency issue. That alone does not constitute on its own merit anything else being "better" when considered at its basic ability to do what every other paint marker does. Put paintballs downfield.

All these bells, whistles, features, lightness, etc. in todays marker, that incidentaly you will not be able to find parts for in five years, do not by any means make them the pinnicle of design. Throw one of those markers in a bucket of water and see what happens. Go try to find parts for many of the older electros....
Do the same with a Mag.
When you can't use the others, which one is "better" now?

Now I don't want you to be confused into thinking that I think that the Mag is the only marker out there, or that some fanboi attitude has blinded me into thinking it is the only marker I need for all situations...but I can tell you this. As was stated above, in 20 years (assuming that the same "common" air source is available) I go and gas up any of the markers I currently own I know where my money will be on which one will actually work, or more specifically will be easily be repaired to.

like i said my opinion not trying to force it on anyone or downplay mags I love them and use them all the time just tellin it how i see it so I'm absolutely not offended.

[paint magnet]

[quote]plastic would let you do so much cool stuff and an aluminum sleeve inside would reinforce it and give you something to thread the feed tube, detents, and barrel into. once again the thread says unrealistic... why spend so much time tearing apart a post?

What I'm trying to say is that if you have a sleeve strong enough to hold the gun together, then the plastic is purely for looks. Mag bodies cannot get any smaller, and you wouldn't save any weight by adding a plastic shell. Why spend so much time on a post? Well, why reply in the first place?




I have a Ruger and I can honestly say nothing on that gun is as well put together as a mag. They are great guns don't get me wrong but seriously there is a lot more time and effort put into just the welding and grinding on a mag than the whole milling of that ruger receiver hell mine has tool marks on it underneath the wood, probably to cut costs... It's pretty obvious you don't know what you are talking about at this point. Ruger = cheap and readily available. there is no comparison to be made...

Most of the parts I'm talking about are manufactured by the thousand or so per month and are made of high quality material in really big expensive machines that suck a lot of power by skilled operators who demand top dollar similar to AGD Quality starts at the beginning . The rinky dink parts you are referring to are out sourced to the lowest bidder who is spitting them out and has such crappy tolerances that I've had to replace the bolt in my .22 2 times since I bought it in 2000. Funny how my Browning Sporting clays gun has alot more recoil and I shoot it alot more but it never breaks....


I have not experienced the same problems with my Ruger as you have. You say your Browning is much more reliable, and I'm willing to bet it also cost well over two grand. It's the same principle with the AutoMag: quality costs money. Yes, Browning could make a less expensive version of the same gun with the same action just as AGD could make a mag out of low-end parts but would you buy the Browning if it was powdercoated and had a cheap plastic stock instead of blued barrels and hand-polished walnut?




see that is a narrow minded fan boy perspective and while it's fine and acceptable in this environment it's just not a logical way to make a decision in the real world. The G3 is definitely a better buy than a new mag. The resale may not be the same percentage. But at least it will shoot almost a case of paint off a 68/4k fill, lighter, faster, blah blah blah.... I'm not trying to sell guns or change anyones mind just my opinion....

And remember the thread says unrealistic... be a little more open minded you jerks.

I don't see how it's narrow-minded at all. You have your priorities in selecting a marker, and I have mine. I could point out that air efficiency doesn't matter because I pay for all-day air anyway, weight doesn't bother me and that my Mag with Auto-Response frame is just as fast as a G3 capped at 13 bps.

And why are you referring to "logical decisions" if this is an "unrealistic" thread?

[cyrus-the-virus]

Laser guided land mines.

[JesseB]

[QUOTE=JesseB]

What I'm trying to say is that if you have a sleeve strong enough to hold the gun together, then the plastic is purely for looks. Mag bodies cannot get any smaller, and you wouldn't save any weight by adding a plastic shell. Why spend so much time on a post? Well, why reply in the first place?





I have not experienced the same problems with my Ruger as you have. You say your Browning is much more reliable, and I'm willing to bet it also cost well over two grand. It's the same principle with the AutoMag: quality costs money. Yes, Browning could make a less expensive version of the same gun with the same action just as AGD could make a mag out of low-end parts but would you buy the Browning if it was powdercoated and had a cheap plastic stock instead of blued barrels and hand-polished walnut?





I don't see how it's narrow-minded at all. You have your priorities in selecting a marker, and I have mine. I could point out that air efficiency doesn't matter because I pay for all-day air anyway, weight doesn't bother me and that my Mag with Auto-Response frame is just as fast as a G3 capped at 13 bps.

And why are you referring to "logical decisions" if this is an "unrealistic" thread?

Why cap the BPS on any gun?
I pay for all day air too but that doesn't mean that I want to be standing in line at the fill station after every game and trying to refill pods and then running to get on the field or having a game start while im still trying to get ready.

You must not shoot the Ruger much. after a few thousand rounds one of my bolts cracked and then after being stored for a while and a few thousand more rounds the next one stopped ejecting.
The Browning Gold was a little over 1000
and I personally wouldn't purchase a cheaper model of that gun because it's not my style to use cheap junk.

I'll refer to what I want when and where I want. Thanks.

[Chronobreak]

ULE body/rail intelliframe and classic valve for around 300

[paint magnet]

[QUOTE=paint magnet]

Why cap the BPS on any gun?
I pay for all day air too but that doesn't mean that I want to be standing in line at the fill station after every game and trying to refill pods and then running to get on the field or having a game start while im still trying to get ready.

You must not shoot the Ruger much. after a few thousand rounds one of my bolts cracked and then after being stored for a while and a few thousand more rounds the next one stopped ejecting.
The Browning Gold was a little over 1000
and I personally wouldn't purchase a cheaper model of that gun because it's not my style to use cheap junk.

I'll refer to what I want when and where I want. Thanks.

Currently over 5k rounds through the Ruger, and it's less than a year old. Bulk pack Federal, Winchester HPs, Remington Golden Bullets, Remington Subsonics, Federal AutoMatch, Augila Hyper-Velocity, CCI Mini-Mags, CCI Stingers, Quik-Shok, Wolf match-grade, American Eagle...you name it, it cycles it fine. Only ones I've had problems with were Remington Thunderbolt--even with a huge dent in the primer, some of them still don't go off.

The BPS cap is a safety and insurance issue.

[boroballer]

Hate to pull this back on topic (yes, I've got a 10/22 as well and love it) but AGD will eventually go out of business. Key word, eventually. Paintball will be around for a long time, AGD will be lucky to last another 5 or 10 years at this rate. First off, lets say there is nothing wrong with that. The company is currently being run out of a basement and is still able to generate considerable interest and revenue from ourselves and our AO peers. Secondly, even if AGD folds tomorrow, it will leave behind a dedicated corps of fans, several quality aftermarket sources, and an incredible legacy of guiding this sport through it's infancy.

That said, why not make a push. Borrow the money, design something with a shot at working, and try to push it hard on the market. Worst case scenario, and probably most likely scenario, it will fail horribly and the company will file for bankruptcy and close it doors for good.

But you gotta play to win folks, and I'd rather see AGD go out with a bang than a wimper.

[JesseB]

The BPS cap is a safety and insurance issue.


Strange that I've never been to a field that cares.
and they are all insured.... weird... just cant use anything other than semi.

[aqua_scummm]

I don't see how you can say that the G3 is absolutely better than a mag...

Does it use CO2? No
Does it come in a single trigger version? No.
Does it fit comfortably in my hands? No, it's too small.


3 deal breakers off the bat, aside from the fact that I hate the soft feeling of electro triggers...


Yeah, clearly the G3 is better than the mag, regardless of what features you're looking for.

[JesseB]

I don't see how you can say that the G3 is absolutely better than a mag...

Does it use CO2? No
Does it come in a single trigger version? No.
Does it fit comfortably in my hands? No, it's too small.


3 deal breakers off the bat, aside from the fact that I hate the soft feeling of electro triggers...


Yeah, clearly the G3 is better than the mag, regardless of what features you're looking for.

you sir are completely irrational and just trying to start poop.
re-read my post it was my opinion that if you were going to buy a new gun there are better options unless your heart is set on a mag.

Show me a decent single trigger frame that has been produced for the mag in the last 6 months.
the frame is proportional to the single trigger plastic frames... they are similarly contoured and only slightly different ... you are just splitting hairs because you feel like I was attacking you or your gun choice or something when im not.... I was not saying that is the end all be all of guns and everyone should own them. It was just an example of one gun that is a better value in my personal opinion than an Automag. I didn't say hey all you guys suck mag's suck Dangerous Powers owns AGD blah blah blah

I just said that for what I personally look for in a gun they make a good product and I could see myself and a large cross section of the paintball market purchasing and using them because they are affordable, fast, light, efficient, and it's not made by smart parts. Don't forget I didn't say it's the best gun for you or for everyone I just said its a good option and honestly I feel a better option than a mag if you are trying to get a mid range gun.

And I was comparing to the RT pro any way not the classic since you cant buy a new one from agd any way so your co2 argument is null and the frame http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=46532080#post46532080

And who cares about your hands? you.... buy your style of gun and stop trying to act like I'm telling you what to do.

[JesseB]

Hate to pull this back on topic (yes, I've got a 10/22 as well and love it) but AGD will eventually go out of business. Key word, eventually. Paintball will be around for a long time, AGD will be lucky to last another 5 or 10 years at this rate. First off, lets say there is nothing wrong with that. The company is currently being run out of a basement and is still able to generate considerable interest and revenue from ourselves and our AO peers. Secondly, even if AGD folds tomorrow, it will leave behind a dedicated corps of fans, several quality aftermarket sources, and an incredible legacy of guiding this sport through it's infancy.

That said, why not make a push. Borrow the money, design something with a shot at working, and try to push it hard on the market. Worst case scenario, and probably most likely scenario, it will fail horribly and the company will file for bankruptcy and close it doors for good.

But you gotta play to win folks, and I'd rather see AGD go out with a bang than a wimper.


I'd rather see them not take drastic measures and stick their neck out for no reason.

[JesseB]

ULE body/rail intelliframe and classic valve for around 300

X2!!

[oozeeh]

heh. you guys are funny.

i would like to see a highly polished SS a.i.r. valve that matches the SS body they make. also bring back the stars! it was cool when you have oh so many stars. maybe a black classic valve? oohh i want SS rails too. my grandson will be able to shoot the same mag i am shooting today if it was made of all SS parts. just replace orings!
also, that would be sexy.

if it was an xball tourney, i would rather shoot a g3 (or any other '08 electro-pneumatic marker specially an sl8r) unless everyone else is shooting a mag.

dave,
shoots a mag & aims for ion grips frames.

[paint magnet]

Strange that I've never been to a field that cares.
and they are all insured.... weird... just cant use anything other than semi.

Well, when little Timmy's mom buys him a new Ion/Rail/G3/Fusion/Shocker whatever the gun of the minute is these days, and then he goes and shoots his 12-year-old Tippmann-toting buddies 11 times in the head because he either didn't mean to pull the trigger, it was bouncy, or in ramping mode, then lots of places should care.

If there is an ROF limit imposed on "pro" teams who are well-accustomed to getting shot, do you think the average walk-on player wants to walk into that kind of paint stream from someone who doesn't know when to stop shooting?






you sir are completely irrational and just trying to start poop.



see that is a narrow minded fan boy perspective and while it's fine and acceptable in this environment it's just not a logical way to make a decision in the real world. The G3 is definitely a better buy than a new mag.


And remember the thread says unrealistic... be a little more open minded you jerks.

So let's review: You accused someone else of trying to start arguments after calling names, accusing anyone who likes Mags (on an AGD website, no less) of being a "fanboy" and not making logical decisions because they choose to shoot something else than what you feel is the bestlightestfastestsmallestcaseoffa68/45shiny new gun that's been out for a few weeks? And then told us to be more open-minded? :spit_take

[JesseB]

So let's review: You accused someone else of trying to start arguments after calling names, accusing anyone who likes Mags (on an AGD website, no less) of being a "fanboy" and not making logical decisions because they choose to shoot something else than what you feel is the bestlightestfastestsmallestcaseoffa68/45shiny new gun that's been out for a few weeks? And then told us to be more open-minded? :spit_take


nope said your statement about the gun having to be around 20 years before you would admit that it's a better value than a mag was a fan boy statement I didn't call "anyone who shoots a mag" a fan boy. Hell if that's the case then I've been a fan boy for the last 6 years and I'm fairly proud of the fact . I recommend them to people all the time but no one wants to pay for them because they don't feel they are getting their money's worth that's not me talking that's the average paintballer who works hard for their money not the kids you are talking about who get mommy and daddy to buy them a gun every time they change.

Keep trying to flip it and make it look like I'm hating on mags instead of stating the obvious. THERE ARE "BETTER" GUNS TO BUY FOR CHEAPER. THE SALES NUMBERS PROVE IT. LOOK AT ANY GUN IN THE SAME PRICE RANGE AS AN RT PRO AND THE SALES NUMBERS DONT EVEN COMPARE! These guns may not be your preference but your opinion is not the only one that matters.

I don't care what you guys want to shoot how fast or slow or how many years you still want to carry the same gun it makes no difference to me and I'm not saying any of that is bad... I don't feel I insulted anyone or their gun choice... Just stating my opinion and getting ripped a new one for it because you think I'm bashing something when I never really said anything negative....

Seems we have more responsible people at my local fields I don't see many cases of people getting ripped... much less a kid.... But I've never heard any field around here tell anyone to cap their ROF at tourneys, practice days or rec ball. I think that might just be in your neck of the woods where people aren't responsible enough to respect their fellow players. Or you have a bunch of whiny babies who think that ROF means that someone is going to totally dominate them so they cried to the owner of the field to impose a cap. Either way I'm glad I don't play there.



If there is an ROF limit imposed on "pro" teams who are well-accustomed to getting shot, do you think the average walk-on player wants to walk into that kind of paint stream from someone who doesn't know when to stop shooting?

What the heck does that mean? I cant even decipher what that means.... lets break it down if ROF limit is imposed on pro teams
and pro teams = used to getting shot
do I believe average walk ons want to walk into that kind of paint stream
that kind of paint stream = pro ROF cap.
and the person doesnt know when to stop shooting...

well im confused...
only cap I've ever heard of on a pro team was for Ramping and xball modes but as far as I know they can shoot semi only uncapped.

[dstud2000]

The pro classics may be out of stock, but as far as I can tell the mini mag is still available which for for a beginner is still a solid platform. I am fine with the efficiency of any of my mags, most places I play at around me are all day air as part of entry anyways. If I play outlaw ball at my field I built, I can use CO2 no problems on any of my classic valved mags, or just simply unscrew one bolt, disconnect the macro ad swap out my xvalve for one of the classic valves and continue with the same gun. If I really needed to be able to shoot a case off of one air fill, well then I am shooting too much. So I would say make a tiered market for the mag.

ULE classic: ULE body, classic valve made from aluminum and incorporates a ligther trigger pull and is CO2 and HPA ready, single trigger or dble trigger carbon frame, 1 piece barrel, basic bottomline setup and a foregrip. Of course give the upgraded options for lvl 10, intelliframe, yframe, warp body, warpfeed. Base gun would say be in the $275 range with the whatever upgrades adding on the price. Maybe a players kit like tippmann and Kingman do, tank, mask, and hopper for another $25 more to get new players into the game a bit easier.

Tac One classic: basically same as Ule Classic but with Tac One Body withroughly the same price of $275.

RT ULE Custom: current RT ULE Custom offered by AGD at current price

Tac One RT: current Tac One offered by AGD at current price.

This would give more choice to beginners and seasoned players as well as the ones who stick with CO2. With all setups made mostly of aluminum, those who are into the lighter weight will be happy and those who want color option will be set too. Then if those who want to upgrade to the xvalve could do the reg swap program and be all set. Then for those who want to start right at the top also have their option as well.

The only real investment of time and manufacturing would be of the new classic valve and a dble trigger carbon frame. The rest of the components should all be off the shelf items for AGD.


Darn if only I had the financial backing to invest into that....... :cry:

[paint magnet]

nope said your statement about the gun having to be around 20 years before you would admit that it's a better value than a mag was a fan boy statement I didn't call "anyone who shoots a mag" a fan boy. Hell if that's the case then I've been a fan boy for the last 6 years and I'm fairly proud of the fact . I recommend them to people all the time but no one wants to pay for them because they don't feel they are getting their money's worth that's not me talking that's the average paintballer who works hard for their money not the kids you are talking about who get mommy and daddy to buy them a gun every time they change.

Keep trying to flip it and make it look like I'm hating on mags instead of stating the obvious. THERE ARE "BETTER" GUNS TO BUY FOR CHEAPER. THE SALES NUMBERS PROVE IT. LOOK AT ANY GUN IN THE SAME PRICE RANGE AS AN RT PRO AND THE SALES NUMBERS DONT EVEN COMPARE! These guns may not be your preference but your opinion is not the only one that matters.

I don't care what you guys want to shoot how fast or slow or how many years you still want to carry the same gun it makes no difference to me and I'm not saying any of that is bad... I don't feel I insulted anyone or their gun choice... Just stating my opinion and getting ripped a new one for it because you think I'm bashing something when I never really said anything negative....

If I have misunderstood your intentions then I genuinely apologize. It just came across (to me, at least) as being rather one-sided. As for it being a "fanboy" statement, then I will have to disagree with you, for many different reasons, not necessarily pertaining to Mags or any other gun. My 20 year statement was in reference to the fact that it's cheaper to buy a marker, whether it be a Mag, cocker, or whatever else you choose, that will last for a while. In addition to becoming more familiar with the marker, you also save money by not buying the latest greatest gun that comes along.

I have shot the G3 and do acknowledge that yes, it seems to be well-made. However, I just can't see it, or any other of the current generation markers lasting for 20 years, and thus the basis for me choosing the AutoMag.


Seems we have more responsible people at my local fields I don't see many cases of people getting ripped... much less a kid.... But I've never heard any field around here tell anyone to cap their ROF at tourneys, practice days or rec ball. I think that might just be in your neck of the woods where people aren't responsible enough to respect their fellow players. Or you have a bunch of whiny babies who think that ROF means that someone is going to totally dominate them so they cried to the owner of the field to impose a cap. Either way I'm glad I don't play there.



What the heck does that mean? I cant even decipher what that means.... lets break it down if ROF limit is imposed on pro teams
and pro teams = used to getting shot
do I believe average walk ons want to walk into that kind of paint stream
that kind of paint stream = pro ROF cap.
and the person doesnt know when to stop shooting...

well im confused...
only cap I've ever heard of on a pro team was for Ramping and xball modes but as far as I know they can shoot semi only uncapped.

It means that if pro players have a 13.3 bps cap, why would inexperienced players want to play a game where someone is shooting 18 bps? Several times I've seen first-time players get scared away from the game by some idiot who thinks it's cool to shoot as fast as he possibly can. These players often leave soon after, or play amongst themselves and never move. They either never come back, or come back with a fast new gun and do the same thing to other players.

I'll admit, I haven't kept up with all the rules pro teams abide by now. I remember it used to be 13 bps, then went to uncapped semi, then 15 bps cap with ramping modes, and now I think it's back to 13.3 bps. Not sure if that's NXL, PSP, NPPL, CFOA, whatever. I just think it's a good idea that can carry over into rec play and know of a few fields which have implemented it with success. In general, it tends to make for a much more casual atmosphere, and one in which players are not in an "arms race," if you will, to shoot faster than each other. I've often seen players hosing paint simply because they lacked the skill to get eliminations by any other way than intimidating the other team by ROF.

A bps cap doesn't solve all issues, no. But it's a good idea for those who don't have the respect not to overshoot other players. Yes, it's still quite possible to overshoot someone, but too often it is overlooked because "the balls were already in the air." It's also an issue of respect, and a way of leveling the playing field. Walk-on games are a lot more fun when players choose sides according to skill level rather than whose gun shoots fastest.

[PhoenixWolf]

Here's what's starting to worry me: some of these fully mechanical guns CAN hit 15+ BPS if they're set up right. You cannot cap these guns, except with the loader. Does this ultimately mean mechanicals will be banned from major events?

[paint magnet]

I know the AutoResponse frame was banned...but then again that was in the early 1990s.

I don't think there is a rule which states your gun has to be capped at anything, so long as you do not shoot over the limit. In theory, if you have a gun on uncapped semi and you can shoot 18 bps, but only shoot 10 bps, you're fine. I would imagine it's the same with mech guns.

[questionful]

Here's what's starting to worry me: some of these fully mechanical guns CAN hit 15+ BPS if they're set up right.
As long as it's not adjustable without an allen key or a swap of parts, I don't think that will be a problem.