The DevilMag:

[Empyreal Rogue]

I've been trying to think of a catchy title to draw in attention. I figured this was probably the best way to do it.

There are several DIY Automag projects out there. Pneumatic, Electro-Pneumatic, Ego Frames, DM Frames, and even Shocker Frames. With the complexity of these different projects ranging from high to medium I began wondering... Why hasn't anyone thought about a DIY DevilFrame project?

Maybe not a carbon copy of the DevilFrame, but at the very least something similar? Think about it, GADevil himself made each project out of his own home which means all the tools needed to make it are easily accessible, already owned by the right people, or are simply just affordable. Is there something that made these special? The way I see if and from what I understand about the DevilFrame, it's simply a Chimera Frame with a 25g switch, a Predator Board, an 18v battery, and some wires. Is the possibility of a DIY DevilFrame being overshadowed by E-PneuFrames, or is it far more complex than that?

I'm not encouraging anyone to continue his "legacy", but perhaps take apart a DevilFrame to see how they were made. Honestly, I'd do all this myself if I had a DevilFrame examine. I may even do it anyway if someone with a DevilFrame doesn't mind helping me out. I'll even put together a step by step instruction list. Maybe give it my own twist so I could give it its own name.

[MANN]

Atach has done a couple of these. I have seen others do it also. They are basicly the same thing as a hyperframe. someone on beo has a zgrip with it in there.

[Rudz]

They weren't chimera frames, they were chimera blanks, and gadevil had tag sportz cut them to fit a soleniod, 9v, micro switch and predator morlock board, the soleniods were a pain in the butt to get, good luck getting a good supply of morlock boards, though we do have the scenario dreams univeral board now, the soleniod would be tricky, and find someone willing blank frame, blank meaning, nothing is cut out internally, not uled or anything, so they can be cut for all the specific parts, plus with xmod for hour emags, pnuematic frames, ego frames, well we don't care to much about another e frame, plus your not allowed to mention, tag sportz, bob sandifer, gadevil/ chris brooks, why? Because I said so....lol suckahs

[Empyreal Rogue]

hm.. I see.

So does the inside of the Chimera Frame need a lot of cutting to fit everything?

The reason I posed this question is because whenever someone mentions their DevilMag or when others talk about the DevilMag its always spoken about as if it's the best. But it seems like no one is interested in making it themselves. Is it a hassle, expensive, lack of confidence in the builders, or just DevilMag owners wanting to remain exclusive?

Now I need to talk to A-Tach since I know he does own a DevilFrame himself. See how the original DevilFrame compares to his homemade one, ultimately to judge if this would be worth it since I'd sell my E-Mag lowers for this.

[Rudz]

Tach just put a microswitch, a 9v, and used an ape baords and some niod, packed it all in a chimera

[going_home]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=179550

:rolleyes:

[p8ntbal4me]

I filled in some of the blanks

~ P8nt


Why hasn't anyone thought about a DIY DevilFrame project?.

Someone has,... it is a small, very quiet project for personal use only (4 frames total).


Maybe not a carbon copy of the DevilFrame, but at the very least something similar? Think about it, GADevil himself made each project out of his own home which means all the tools needed to make it are easily accessible, already owned by the right people, or are simply just affordable. Is there something that made these special? The way I see if and from what I understand about the DevilFrame, it's simply a Chimera Frame with a 25g switch, a Predator Board, an 18v battery, and some wires. Is the possibility of a DIY DevilFrame being overshadowed by E-PneuFrames, or is it far more complex than that?.

The Devil Mag Frame itself is very simple. buy a Hyperframe, lay it over a frame of your choice, trace it out,... mill the excess. At least,... thats what I did.

Heres a version that Im finishing up in my spare time 1 day a week for a few hours.
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/3/6214122612.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic/7771105)

Ive already had a model done to test the parts out. The trigger needs some work,... the solenoid, battery, board, LED, and some other goodies all fit. This first generation model was built to take EGO triggers.
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/3/6423493761.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic/7782951)
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/3/6423493736.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic/7782950)


Converting an existing Chimera frame is not that difficult if your the type of guy that measures more than 5 times and mills once.

A UTB, micro switch, solenoid, 9volt battery, capacitor, some solder and some time is all it takes.

All the above parts can be purchased through me if thats the route you want to go.

[Rudz]

Hey that looks like BEO chat in that pik with your frame model

[mpsd]

There's one being developed right now with an UMF frame, a Scenario Dreams Universal board (with eyes) and a Spyder noid. I can't say much about it right now because it's still being studied (how to place the noid on the frame without ruining the frame's structure) but hopefully I'll be able to upload some pics when the work actually starts. It's going to be a bad-*** gun. Wait and you'll see.

:cheers:

[Ruler_Mark]

I think a professionally done pnue setup would be the best. but we all know where that has gone

[Empyreal Rogue]

Hm.. Unfortunately for me the only piece of equipment/machinery that I do not have is any kind of mill so it may be difficult, but certainly not impossible so long as I lay down a lot of plans and measurements for how to convert a clean Chimera Frame into a DevilFrame.

Though I still want to decide if I want to do that in place of a complete E-Mag.

[questionful]

What's the fastest a sear-tripper 'noid can go? And how does the solenoid travel on a mag compare to that on a spyder?

[mpsd]

Rogue, I have an e-Mag and trully LOVE it. The trigger feel is unbeatable, trust me. Now, if you are a tinkerer and like to invent things, and have patience to adjust them, go ahead.

Questionful, I may be wrong with that but I trully believe the maximum ROF would be north of 30, maybe 35 BPS. Take a look at other sear tripped guns, such as the Proto SLG and the Mini. Now, the difference between the sears on the Spyder and the Mag is that the Spyder's sear moves up and down, while the Mag's goes front and back. Therefore, you have to twist the noid 90 degrees to make it functional with the Mag.

[snoopay700]

Rogue, I have an e-Mag and trully LOVE it. The trigger feel is unbeatable, trust me. Now, if you are a tinkerer and like to invent things, and have patience to adjust them, go ahead.

Questionful, I may be wrong with that but I trully believe the maximum ROF would be north of 30, maybe 35 BPS. Take a look at other sear tripped guns, such as the Proto SLG and the Mini. Now, the difference between the sears on the Spyder and the Mag is that the Spyder's sear moves up and down, while the Mag's goes front and back. Therefore, you have to twist the noid 90 degrees to make it functional with the Mag.
Since when does the mini use a sear? ;)

[mpsd]

Since when does the mini use a sear? ;)

Doesn't it? LOL!!! OK, forget that part... :rofl: Substitute that for one of those Spyders with two trigger switches then.

[BigEvil]

What's the fastest a sear-tripper 'noid can go? And how does the solenoid travel on a mag compare to that on a spyder?


That question depends greatly on which application you are speaking of. Emags can go into the mid 20's. ULT set up hyperframe style eframes which use the pancake noid top out at around 20 bps. EP frames vary on the set up.

[snoopay700]

Doesn't it? LOL!!! OK, forget that part... :rofl: Substitute that for one of those Spyders with two trigger switches then.
Lol, yeah i figured you just made a little mistake, still was pretty damn funny.

[p8ntbal4me]

When I do a personal setup,..I try to ask myself what am I getting out of the gun

Its either:

ROF or Easy of Use

In my experience,.. sear tripping Mags with solenoids such as the pancake solenoid are good for the 25bps area. I believe you can take one after a build to that point and have almost zero issues.

The EP setups are a simple 25bps+ without question. If the solenoid is a good one and the ram is close to it and built well,... it will crank out 25bps without fail,.. then go faster.

If your plan is to weigh the pros and cons on the E-mag over a home made setup,.. your wasting your time. Its much more simple to spend $400 bucks and slap the lowers on your rail and be done.

Home brew conversions are for the user that wants something ELSE that the E-Mag can not do. Its also noticably lighter in weight as far as the E-Noid conversion goes. EP conversions can be light,.. but that depends on your frame and parts of choice in the build.

If you cant solder, follow wire diagrams, do self involved research, have some time set aside, have the funds, and sub-out the extra milling involved,.... anything other than a set of working E-Mag lowers would be a waste of both time and money.

I see alot of guys constantly say "well I can do the same thing as an E-Mag myself, but cheaper" And I kinda have to chuckle over that statement. Because WHO in their right mind,.. works for free???? Once you start adding on labor to the work,.... the cost is right up there.

~ P8nt

[Lohman446]

The DevilMags had issues that none of the owners ever fully disclosed.

Among other things lets just stay that the limiting factor was not the mag valve, it was the solenoid (same as the e-mag).

The EP mag has a much better chance of success if you are looking for 20+ ROF.

[p8ntbal4me]

There's one being developed right now with an UMF frame, a Scenario Dreams Universal board (with eyes) and a Spyder noid. I can't say much about it right now because it's still being studied (how to place the noid on the frame without ruining the frame's structure) but hopefully I'll be able to upload some pics when the work actually starts. It's going to be a bad-*** gun. Wait and you'll see.

:cheers:

That kinda sounds like what I was working on. I got some Solid Works still pictures if you guys wanna see where I was going with it.

And as far as a developement on the frame YOUR talking about,..... Im pretty sure you and I are talking about the same person as far as the sear tripping conversion goes. He looked at my files and spoke a little bit of his plan to do something simular.

~ P8nt

[p8ntbal4me]

The DevilMags had issues that none of the owners ever fully disclosed.

Among other things lets just stay that the limiting factor was not the mag valve, it was the solenoid (same as the e-mag).

The EP mag has a much better chance of success if you are looking for 20+ ROF.


Somewhere along the line in every marker,.. there is going to be that key part that will limit the other parts of the marker as far as ROF goes.

With an AGD marker,.. we are blessed with a nice 36bps+ base to work off of in the department of ROF. The problem with that is now you have to find the right parts and slap them together in the right combination to get the most of that base platform.

A task (as we all know) that is not easy!

~ P8nt

[mpsd]

That kinda sounds like what I was working on. I got some Solid Works still pictures if you guys wanna see where I was going with it.

And as far as a developement on the frame YOUR talking about,..... Im pretty sure you and I are talking about the same person as far as the sear tripping conversion goes. He looked at my files and spoke a little bit of his plan to do something simular.

~ P8nt

Probably yes. I won't say that I or him reinvented the wheel. That's not true, neither the point. I also don't intend to do something totally exclusive, nor to patent or sell it. I'll post a lot of pics after it's done. What happens now is that we didn't finish the design and he is a little reluctant on doing so, since he's afraid of ruining my frame (which is good, as he's protecting my investment). That's why I don't want to disclose more as of now. Anyway, we are working on it for about three to four months already. Hopefully he will finish the project by the end of this month. What I like in working with him is that he thinks like me: plan in 90% of the time and execute in 10%. This way, one can save a LOT of future headaches.

[SCpoloRicker]

The DevilMags had issues that none of the owners ever fully disclosed.

Among other things lets just stay that the limiting factor was not the mag valve, it was the solenoid (same as the e-mag).

Definitely "among other things"...

/owned one of the first 5 made
//don't own it anymore

[BigEvil]

The DevilMags had issues that none of the owners ever fully disclosed.

Among other things lets just stay that the limiting factor was not the mag valve, it was the solenoid (same as the e-mag).

The EP mag has a much better chance of success if you are looking for 20+ ROF.

You pretty much need the 'heavens and earth to align in your favor' for you to get most hyperframe type set ups to work properly. Tunaman wont even look at them anymore, and Denis from Centerflag himself told me that they 'took a beating' on them.

That whole 'pancake noid' idea seems like a good one, but in reality it is not.

[mpsd]

You pretty much need the 'heavens and earth to align in your favor' for you to get most hyperframe type set ups to work properly. Tunaman wont even look at them anymore, and Denis from Centerflag himself told me that they 'took a beating' on them.

That whole 'pancake noid' idea seems like a good one, but in reality it is not.

Can you clarify why is that? I mean, if it works so well with other sear tripped markers, why not with a Mag? Is is so different then the MPA-3, concerning how the sear is actuated?

[snoopay700]

Can you clarify why is that? I mean, if it works so well with other sear tripped markers, why not with a Mag? Is is so different then the MPA-3, concerning how the sear is actuated?
Probably more to do with the force and such. It's much harder to get an equivalent amount of force from inducing a magnet field to move the noid when compared to air pressure.

[questionful]

Oy this is not good to hear, though I'm only $20 into my project. I abandoned it a few months ago, I'll try to get around to it soon. After all, I picked up some 1/4" aluminum I can mess around with. :) Here's what I was planning on doing.

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z304/Qful/P8310062.jpg

The noid hits a lever (1/8 allen key :) ) that acts on the sear. It's a stock A-5 board, and a free benchy (free because it looks like someone almost went fubar on it). I've got a couple ideas for mounting the noid, and with a little dremel work, I can get everything to fit just fine (okay maybe not "just fine," but it'll fit!).

[mpsd]

Probably more to do with the force and such. It's much harder to get an equivalent amount of force from inducing a magnet field to move the noid when compared to air pressure.

OK, that's a good point you have. Wouldn't a full shimmed ULT address this?

[BigEvil]

Can you clarify why is that? I mean, if it works so well with other sear tripped markers, why not with a Mag? Is is so different then the MPA-3, concerning how the sear is actuated?

Well, off the top of my head;

-on/off pin size
-on/off pin type
-input pressure
-solenoid age
-grime and/or rust in the solenoid
-weak capacitors
-weak or crappy batteries
-mushrooming or short solenoid plungers
-warped, bent, or modified rails. (I wish I had the time back I spent learning that one)
-over or under tightened frame screws
-misaligned solenoids
-(trigger) switch noise
-badly milled frames (wings)

^ I can do this all day.


That cheap little mpa3 does a much better job at tripping the mag sear. However it is not without its shortcomings.

[questionful]

What is everyone's opinion on the least problematic E-Pneu board and noid capable of 25bps? I don't know anything about boards, I keep hearing the names "scenario dreams," "universal," "mini morlock," and "predator," and I hate having no idea what people are talking about! :tard: Can someone just fill me in real quick?

[mpsd]

What is everyone's opinion on the least problematic E-Pneu board and noid capable of 25bps? I don't know anything about boards, I keep hearing the names "scenario dreams," "universal," "mini morlock," and "predator," and I hate having no idea what people are talking about! :tard: Can someone just fill me in real quick?

Mini Morlock is a universal board made by Tag Sportz and it's code is known as the Predator code. There are three versions that I'm aware of, being the 3.0 (really old), 5.0 and the newest 10.0. I have one of these on my Alien Mag and I like it. This board is out of production now (it was a short run of 150 boards or so on the last iteration).

Universal, as the name says, is a board that can be installed in any electronic or electro-pneumatic marker.

Scenario Dreams is a manufacturer that also has a universal board. I bought one for my new project but didn't finish the project yet so can't say much about it.

There are also other board manufacturers such as Tadao (great boards!), Virtue (also good ones) and APE (Advanced Paintball Electronics). I never used any of those personally.

Try Googling it and make some research here and at PBN. Also take a look at PB Review and Warpig. You'll probably find what you're looking for.

[p8ntbal4me]

What is everyone's opinion on the least problematic E-Pneu board and noid capable of 25bps? I don't know anything about boards, I keep hearing the names "scenario dreams," "universal," "mini morlock," and "predator," and I hate having no idea what people are talking about! :tard: Can someone just fill me in real quick?


The board made by TAG (The Angel Guy),.. also known as Predator Electronics, put out a board in league with a company called KM2, which was headed by a guy named Kurt.

The board they put out together was called the "Morlock". Which was made for no gun in particular. You bought it from them with the knowledge that YOU needed to hook it up and make it work properly.

The problem with the Morlock was not the board,.. but the company that made the board.
Ask BigEvil about the E-Mag boards promised by TAG some time. You'll want a case of beer and a lazy-boy on stand by before you ask though!

The newest board that is a Universal board is made from Scenario Dreams, called the "Universal T-Board" (names the UTB by yours truly!) It has the same coding as all the other T-Boards made by SD,... but again,.. you have to hook it up yourself.

If your venturing down this path and looking for a board,.. I have a few for sale.

~ P8nt

[questionful]

Thanks for the info guys, it'll get me started on some research.

What do you guys think the future holds for sear-tripping noids and their boards, and E-Pneu boards and their 'noid/valves?

[p8ntbal4me]

What do you guys think the future holds for E-Pneu boards and their 'noid/valves?

Im actually finishing up the milling on a Logic UMF and a Cerberus Innovations Storm Walk EP frames as I watch this thread.

Hoping to run them next weekend at AG Paintball.

~ P8nt

[Coralis]

here you go
http://www.goapeonline.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=28&vmcchk=1&Itemid=28
http://www.scenariodreams.com/productpages/universaltboard.htm

[st6212]

I'm building a new mag. Having a custom 90 degree frame made from scratch. Will be using a pancake noid and a mini-morlock board with 10.0 code. The frame will be shorter than the Chimera frames (never liked how tall they were).

A pic:
http://img2.putfile.com/main/5/14721465471.jpg

[Ruler_Mark]

That is looking verrry nice! :clap:

[Empyreal Rogue]

Well, I'm still considering this, and even more so now because I need to make some quick and easy money so I might have to sell my X-Mag lowers. I plan on keeping my Pneumag as its been a very reliable marker, but I'm still not sure if I want to put together a home made E-Frame.

Weight is a big concern for me since I typically play the front man role, and my pneumag setup is perfect for it. ULE body, original ULE RogueRail, and a Chimera Frame. And lets face it, no matter what we do to the E or X-Mag lowers it's still a heavy setup. I love the way my E-Mag is built, but it just feels heavy and I would like to have something new, something different. That's why I'm so interested in a DIY E-Frame.

ROF is a concern to me. If I'm going to have or build an electronic marker then it should shoot faster than my pneumag, or else I would feel that my money and time would have been wasted.

Ease of use is not a huge concern for me, afterall I have a pneumag. It literally took me months to tune it to perfection. While I didn't build my pneumag (Pneumagger did it for me), I've taken it apart and tuned it so many times that I could very easily rebuild it on my own. I'm an engineer at heart so sitting down and building, and tinkering is something that comes very easily for me.

P8nt, you have a pretty wide knowledge of boards, in your experience which board would you recommend most and why? I like the E-Mag board because it's very programable wherever you are, are there any aftermarket boards like that?

How do E-Frames stack up to EP-Frames? Reading back in this thread you said EP-Frames are good for 25+ BPS which sounds awesome, but what about E-Frames? Or was that what you meant by pancake solenoids?

Compared to a Pneumag, does an EP-Mag have short stroking problems, or is it just an electronic marker that uses pneumatics to reset and trip the sear?

Heh I didn't realize I would have this many questions, but it seems like a DIY frame is a very heavy investment so I might as well try to learn as much as I can before I even make the first purchase.

[Ruler_Mark]

Well, I'm still considering this, and even more so now because I need to make some quick and easy money so I might have to sell my X-Mag lowers. I plan on keeping my Pneumag as its been a very reliable marker, but I'm still not sure if I want to put together a home made E-Frame.
Do both :P
Weight is a big concern for me since I typically play the front man role, and my pneumag setup is perfect for it. ULE body, original ULE RogueRail, and a Chimera Frame. And lets face it, no matter what we do to the E or X-Mag lowers it's still a heavy setup. I love the way my E-Mag is built, but it just feels heavy and I would like to have something new, something different. That's why I'm so interested in a DIY E-Frame.
I agree with you, I personally am building a mech pnue setup within bare emag lowers
ROF is a concern to me. If I'm going to have or build an electronic marker then it should shoot faster than my pneumag, or else I would feel that my money and time would have been wasted.
I personally feel that a pnue setup can go faster than a 9v driven solenoid. The pnue can shortstroke if your dwell is too short or the lpr somehow starves the actuator or if you arent an ep you dont hold the trigger down long engough
Ease of use is not a huge concern for me, afterall I have a pneumag. It literally took me months to tune it to perfection. While I didn't build my pneumag (Pneumagger did it for me), I've taken it apart and tuned it so many times that I could very easily rebuild it on my own. I'm an engineer at heart so sitting down and building, and tinkering is something that comes very easily for me.
I think most ao'ers are engineers, atleast to some degree, me being a computer engineer personally
P8nt, you have a pretty wide knowledge of boards, in your experience which board would you recommend most and why? I like the E-Mag board because it's very programable wherever you are, are there any aftermarket boards like that?
I'm not p8nt but you wont find boards that have readable outputs that can be mounted in any frame. The only other frames that had readable screens were most eblade/ego boards and sypders
How do E-Frames stack up to EP-Frames? Reading back in this thread you said EP-Frames are good for 25+ BPS which sounds awesome, but what about E-Frames? Or was that what you meant by pancake solenoids?
see above statements
Compared to a Pneumag, does an EP-Mag have short stroking problems, or is it just an electronic marker that uses pneumatics to reset and trip the sear?
see above statements
Heh I didn't realize I would have this many questions, but it seems like a DIY frame is a very heavy investment so I might as well try to learn as much as I can before I even make the first purchase.

[Empyreal Rogue]

Aren't the Ego boards pretty small? I doubt an E-Blade board would fit, I do know those are kind of big. But it wouldn't be the end of the world for me if neither could fit, it's just a feature I'd like to have.

So even with an EP setup there can be short stroke problems? Hm.. That's really a big concern of mine as I've had a few problems with that on my Pneumag, though I haven't had any air to test whether or not my magnet setup cleaned that up any. My Pneumag doesn't short stroke a lot, but sometimes it's hard to hold down a constant stream for more than a few seconds because of it.

It's funny, a lot of the features I seem to want, most are already on the E-Mag board. Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression off these aftermarket boards but it seems like they aren't adjustable. Just hook everything up and it's an electric semi marker.

[Ruler_Mark]

Aren't the Ego boards pretty small? I doubt an E-Blade board would fit, I do know those are kind of big. But it wouldn't be the end of the world for me if neither could fit, it's just a feature I'd like to have.

So even with an EP setup there can be short stroke problems? Hm.. That's really a big concern of mine as I've had a few problems with that on my Pneumag, though I haven't had any air to test whether or not my magnet setup cleaned that up any. My Pneumag doesn't short stroke a lot, but sometimes it's hard to hold down a constant stream for more than a few seconds because of it.

It's funny, a lot of the features I seem to want, most are already on the E-Mag board. Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression off these aftermarket boards but it seems like they aren't adjustable. Just hook everything up and it's an electric semi marker.


Just set you rof to like 25, your lpr with starve it unless you have it at a ineffcient setting.


Ego boards are the same screw footprint as a eblade, they have no capacitor tho