This is what happens when you pay 1600 for an overmilled amrker (taken from PBN)

[Chronobreak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-EuAQKuBjI&eurl=http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2699144

original thread

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2699144

[Madmarx]

WOW WTF happened there?
Was there additional milling done?

[GroovYChickeN 2.o]

WOW WTF happened there?
Was there additional milling done?

Nope, Egos just have a problem with the frame being too thin and bending (or breaking). Seen it happen a few times.

[pmstc]

No, that's what happens when you treat your $1600 marker like a plush toy.

[snoopay700]

No, that's what happens when you treat your $1600 marker like a plush toy.
No, that's what happens when you waste money on a $1600 marker and expect to play with it when it's lighter than helium. Honestly, these and dye markers are the only ones i've ever heard of this happening to.

[pmstc]

No, that's what happens when you waste money on a $1600 marker and expect to play with it when it's lighter than helium. Honestly, these and dye markers are the only ones i've ever heard of this happening to.
Then how do you account for the thousands of players that this doesn't happen to?
I have an ego and I'm pretty sure this hasn't happened to me.
Let me go double check.



Yep, the frame still hasn't bent.

[Chronobreak]

i think i fell on it, it takes alot of force but there is a good amount of markers that can withstand the force and those that cant.

it probly took alot less force than you think to bend it liek that.

ive seen half a dozen bent shocker frames as well.

though i like the lady in the video"you think they can fix it"
:rofl:

[mostpeople]

I havent seen that happen to a mag frame yet..

[thahouse]

my teammate has bent an invert mini in half doing a superman dive...it bent right in half between the trigger frame and the battery pack. He is only 120lbs soaking wet too..

[Chronobreak]

I havent seen that happen to a mag frame yet..

not likely with a stock mag frame though perhaps with one of the aftermarket frames being milled to be super light.

[WingMan13]

I'd be honored if I played so hard that I bent my marker.

[snoopay700]

Then how do you account for the thousands of players that this doesn't happen to?
I have an ego and I'm pretty sure this hasn't happened to me.
Let me go double check.



Yep, the frame still hasn't bent.
Ok, let me correct myself, if you expect to try to act like a pro and dive without thinking about your asa. Still, there are plenty of guns that you could do the same thing he did and nothing like this would happen.

[Forsaken9988]

You guys may give PE crap but hey, they have replaced every bent frame for free of charge.

[snoopay700]

You guys may give PE crap but hey, they have replaced every bent frame for free of charge.
Truthfully they're just catering to the market, i mean yeah from what i've heard they have great service and are a great company. The only thing i don't really like about them is their new markers are never really new (although they're definitely not the first to do this, so it's not that big of an issue), they're overhyped normally (egos i mean), and they're really just a glorified spyder for the most part. I never saw what was so great about them, there are other markers that are much better.

[electriceel125]

Truthfully they're just catering to the market, i mean yeah from what i've heard they have great service and are a great company. The only thing i don't really like about them is their new markers are never really new (although they're definitely not the first to do this, so it's not that big of an issue), they're overhyped normally (egos i mean), and they're really just a glorified spyder for the most part. I never saw what was so great about them, there are other markers that are much better.


Much better? You must be kidding right? High end electro's over $400 are all within inches of each other preformance wise. Its totally personal preference. Ive owned and or shot them all and it comes down to feel from the Mini on up to the high dollar Ego's and DM's. Some may be marginally better than others at certain things but it comes down to the fact that they all shoot fast enough to max a loader consistantly, accuratly, all while weighing less than 2lbs.

[snoopay700]

Much better? You must be kidding right? High end electro's over $400 are all within inches of each other preformance wise. Its totally personal preference. Ive owned and or shot them all and it comes down to feel from the Mini on up to the high dollar Ego's and DM's. Some may be marginally better than others at certain things but it comes down to the fact that they all shoot fast enough to max a loader consistantly, accuratly, all while weighing less than 2lbs.
When i say much better, i am speaking about personal preference, but also in terms of the quality (there are others that are around the same wieght that wouldn't snap like that) as well as the price. Depending on if you find a deal or not i would take an excal over an ego anyday.

[ravenlord]

I think anyone that has been playing for more then 5 years, is over the age of 17, and doesn't play on mommys bill would love an AKA gun over an Ego any day. I know I would, and I don't even fit the first catagory.

Though it has been said, the high ends proform about the same, with only minor differences.

[chafnerjr]

I'd like to see someone try to bend my airwalk! Not anywhere near as light as those... to be fair the company claims to have done this on purpose. Something about high pressure air tanks being rockets if the ASA gets sheared off... yadda yadda yadda... I want to see video! :D IDK I've got way too much into my gun to go stuffing it in the dirt on a superman dive... tried it plenty before but then again I'm not a pro speedballer and I just break too many parts when I do crap like that...

[Army]

My 'Mag frame can pick up a car....

[Rudz]

bigevils brother literally pole vaulted on and xmag, when bigevil yanked it out of the ground, the breech was bent away from the body, remarkably the sob still fired, the barrel was just pionting down, lol, a lil work in the vice and its as good as new, lol

edited, i realized i cant spell for crap and made no sense...

[Ninjeff]

I'd like to see someone try to bend my airwalk! Not anywhere near as light as those... to be fair the company claims to have done this on purpose. Something about high pressure air tanks being rockets if the ASA gets sheared off... yadda yadda yadda... I want to see video! :D IDK I've got way too much into my gun to go stuffing it in the dirt on a superman dive... tried it plenty before but then again I'm not a pro speedballer and I just break too many parts when I do crap like that...


As requested:http://youtube.com/watch?v=vRcbblRqUPA

a paintball tank shearing off an asa. :eek:

[bryceeden]

You guys may give PE crap but hey, they have replaced every bent frame for free of charge.

No, they have not. In fact there was a big thing when the Protege came out with a Player who had bent his Ego7 like that and took it to Eclipse who told him he'd have to buy a new one so he thru the Ego away and bought a Protege from BLAST. JackWood got on the thread saying that it wasn't covered under warrentee if you hit your marker like that(I'd tend to agree).

PE does not cover this problem, and frankly I don't know why they should people bought a marker they new was milled to nothing and then dive on top of it, of course its going to bend.


Much better? You must be kidding right? High end electro's over $400 are all within inches of each other preformance wise. Its totally personal preference. Ive owned and or shot them all and it comes down to feel from the Mini on up to the high dollar Ego's and DM's. Some may be marginally better than others at certain things but it comes down to the fact that they all shoot fast enough to max a loader consistantly, accuratly, all while weighing less than 2lbs.

Finally someone who sees it for what it is :hail:

[JesseB]

I think anyone that has been playing for more then 5 years, is over the age of 17, and doesn't play on mommys bill would love an AKA gun over an Ego any day. I know I would, and I don't even fit the first catagory.

Though it has been said, the high ends proform about the same, with only minor differences.

lol except you can't buy a new one.
I'd like to have a viking but I'll take a readily available ego any day versus searching for weeks/months to find a decent viking come up for sale... the there is the issue of parts... can you still get viking/excal parts new from the factory?

[Ratzo]

That was one crazy vid, lets all make sure our rails and ASA's are secured probely.

And AKA has a lifetime warntee on the Vikes and Ecals.

[ravenlord]

Ya, that is the only problem with the AKA guns. Again, we can blame SP for that.

That was not the ASA shearing off, that was the tanks reg shearing or breaking. 800psi has a lot of force behind it, but not enough to make it rocket like that, ot release that amount of air in that small peroid of time.

[SummaryJudgement]

I remember seeing pics a while back of a shocker that some guy did a faceplant on. The whole frame was twisted nearly 45 degrees from the gun body :eek:

[aqua_scummm]

there's a few of those here

http://www.zdspb.com/tech/misc/gallery_busted.html

[neppo1345]

I don't see the big deal here OMGZORZ!!1!11 THE FRAME BENT!...

If you're and idiot and use your gun to cushion your fall it's going to bend. These guns are designed to be light, shoot fast, take a fall here and there...but they aren't designed to be used as pole vault equipment.

Do the math. Typical 45/45 tank w/ reg and asa is about 10 inches long (I'm at work, so if I'm off on dimensions...let me be). So, 160lb dude puts his body weight into the end of the tank and bam...133 ftlb of torque on the frame...and thats not accounting momentum if he's running which could easily double the figure.

I blame the player for being an idiot, not the manufacturer.

[chafnerjr]

there's a few of those here

http://www.zdspb.com/tech/misc/gallery_busted.html


No mag parts there :D Not to say that they don't break, I'm just sayin...

P.S.
That video was crazy!!!

[drg]

bigevils brother literally pole vaulted on and xmag, when bigevil yanked it out of the ground, the breech was bent away from the body, remarkably the sob still fired, the barrel was just pionting down, lol, a lil work in the vice and its as good as new, lol

edited, i realized i cant spell for crap and made no sense...

Amazing how this tale of a mag damaged by applying a high torque load to it goes unnoticed ...

BTW you guys realize that dremeling off the center strap and thinning out the sides of intelliframes et. al. for pneumatics and possibly electronics makes those frames a lot weaker too ... right?

[questionful]

Amazing how this tale of a mag damaged by applying a high torque load to it goes unnoticed ...

BTW you guys realize that dremeling off the center strap and thinning out the sides of intelliframes et. al. for pneumatics and possibly electronics makes those frames a lot weaker too ... right?
Well see, that was literal pole vaulting, not figurative pole vaulting! :D

[Enemy]

ok so let me get this straight you want your guns made out of the lightest material possible. and than expect it to stand up to around 200lbs of torque being put on it.

and i seriously doubt that PE designed these markers to bend like this, but then again i would rather replace a frame than my face!! :cheers:

dont forget that tanks can kill even at co2 pressures, or did everyone forget about the mom that took the co2 tank to the head?

though some one has to put up the photo of the mag frame holding up a car on the pbn thread!

[questionful]

Ha ha! Forgot about that picture. I would like to see the looks on the faces of all the PBN'ers staring at their monitors, questioning their long-held beliefs. "Whoa, AGD makes some good produ--NOO!! MUST. . . SUPPORT. . . COMPANIES. . . BASED ON. . . HOW GOOD THEIR. . . MARKETING IS!!!!!"

[rkjunior303]

not to mention jack wood made the frame like that to intentionally bend the frame rather than break at the asa.

[drg]

not to mention jack wood made the frame like that to intentionally bend the frame rather than break at the asa.

Is this true? Is it documented somewhere?

[snoopay700]

Is this true? Is it documented somewhere?
Someone in that thread said it's called a crash frame, and that they replace it for free. It would make sense, seeing as it's better to replace a frame than have your tank go off on it's own.

[rkjunior303]

Is this true? Is it documented somewhere?

Said by Jack Wood himself in the PBN thread.

[pmstc]

Amazing how this tale of a mag damaged by applying a high torque load to it goes unnoticed ...

BTW you guys realize that dremeling off the center strap and thinning out the sides of intelliframes et. al. for pneumatics and possibly electronics makes those frames a lot weaker too ... right?
LAWS OF PHYSICS DONT APPLY TO MAGS GTFO MY THREAD

[drg]

Said by Jack Wood himself in the PBN thread.

Ingenius design or a clever lawsuit avoidance? hehe
"Crumple zones"!

[secretweaponevan]

Said by Jack Wood himself in the PBN thread.

Why does a Pee Wee Herman voice pop into my head with the classic, "I meant to do that" when I hear this.

ego fanboys should have posted the classic "pics or shens" to that.

Doesn't matter, Smart Parts will patent frames designed to bend and there will be even less innovation coming down the pike in the future. :rolleyes:

and, LOL!

Can you please close this thread? The person who broke his Sl8r is on one of our feeder teams. With Planet Eclipse as our sponsor, they requested that we dont post pics or vids of this.

Quality always shoots straight!

Edit: ^I just HAD to post that in the pbn thread.

[SCpoloRicker]

LAWS OF PHYSICS DONT APPLY TO MAGS GTFO MY THREAD

*snert*

:)

[Chronobreak]

oh the bent frame is a safety feature

i should have known! i feel like the retard now

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=47883798#post47883798

few other bent frames

as well as i know for a fact a local kid twisted his ego just a week ago.

[drg]

That is interesting. Given that the only recorded (on film) incident of tank-missile I have seen is the afforementioned video of the aftermath of a dive, there might be something to the safety aspect.

I'm sure making it incompatible with other dovetail-based ASAs doesn't hurt the bottom line either ;)

[Chronobreak]

they are now claiming that the frame was purposely made to bend like that and is a safety feature to keep the asa/tank or tank/reg from becoming detached.

maybe im missing something here, but really? i mean come on. If we are having to make frames bend to keep people safe i think we may need to revise how we are playing and the equipment we are using.

also, what if you fall on the gun long ways and not jsut against the frame, say the barrel to the back of the marker mainbody, or tall ways from the feedneck to the bottomframe, while i diddnt want to stir the pot on pbn too much being a mod and all i still just think its an excuse for overmilling.

and if the asa coming detached is a problem, perhaps they should rethink using the dovetail mounted system.

weird how this was never an issue until manufactureres got into a weight war and started featherweighting everything.

theres a nice post in the thread with a few bent frames from UL, egos, and a shocker

i guess shocker patented the first safety frame :rolleyes:

oh and they patented teh safety feedneck, too much pressure and it snaps right off, COOL!

ide venture to say the standard two hole screw mount such as those on cockers/mags is safer than a dovetail and "crash" frame

Tom, or anyone else care to comment about this?

[drg]

and if the asa coming detached is a problem, perhaps they should rethink using the dovetail mounted system.

They did, they use a "t" rail now, which is stronger than the dovetail and is part of the claim that the frame is meant to take the damage rather than the junction between the ASA and the frame.


weird how this was never an issue until manufactureres got into a weight war and started featherweighting everything.

Damage to the tank/frame junction was never an issue until the popularization of the superman dive and turf fields.

It's not that common of a thing and honestly much ado about nothing. The lighter gun makes the ridiculous dive more possible in the first place, so it's kind of chicken-egg as well.

Another consideration is the prevalence of these guns in the type of play that this damage is likely to occur in, presumably all-out tournament-style play. You just don't see too many older markers in that situation so there isn't much chance for them to be exposed to this kind of treatment.

[robnix]

not likely with a stock mag frame though perhaps with one of the aftermarket frames being milled to be super light.
I was making a quick turn in a muddy field with no cleats, slipped, and went forward, planting a mag with a ULE, Shadow Rail, Hyperframe, and a Stiffi barrel straight into the ground. When I got up, the barrel was about six inches deep, but nothing was bent or broken. Got a nice bruise on my forehead where the hopper smacked into me.

[drg]

I was making a quick turn in a muddy field with no cleats, slipped, and went forward, planting a mag with a ULE, Shadow Rail, Hyperframe, and a Stiffi barrel straight into the ground. When I got up, the barrel was about six inches deep, but nothing was bent or broken. Got a nice bruise on my forehead where the hopper smacked into me.

Proving ... what? Most guns can take a barrel-plant without damage, the barrel-marker junction is pretty strong.

[questionful]

I personally think mags can take more of a beating than most tourny-style guns, but unless someone does some testing, I'm pretty much talking out my butt. And I don't think anyone is willing to do any significant testing on such expensive subjects.

[drg]

I personally think mags can take more of a beating than most tourny-style guns, but unless someone does some testing, I'm pretty much talking out my butt. And I don't think anyone is willing to do any significant testing on such expensive subjects.

That is probably true but by no means does that reflect poorly on tournament-style guns. Hummers can take a lot more beating than Corvettes, but you don't use them for the same things. Cars today in general are built less sturdy than cars of yesteryear but these were conscious design decisions to meet specific needs.

[Enemy]

That is probably true but by no means does that reflect poorly on tournament-style guns. Hummers can take a lot more beating than Corvettes, but you don't use them for the same things. Cars today in general are built less sturdy than cars of yesteryear but these were conscious design decisions to meet specific needs.

ohh bad analogy.. cars are built sturdier or actually stiffer than ever before which is why weight is close to or more than the cars of yester year.. but they are also built with crumple zones that absorb the force of the impact to keep it away from the driver.. hence crashes of yester year that were fatal or now survivable.

onto to topic.. what no one seems to realize is that in retro spec the frame bending turns out to be better than it staying stiff in the same circumstances that caused the bend. on the other side of it with the exception of the UL frame none of these frames have obvious weak points and all of them hold up well enough for normal use.

on top of that is thickness that you can make a frame and still have room for the board and a battery. the plain fact is that the guns pictured should not need to be designed to hold up against these types of accidents and all of these omg complaints need to just stop!

Again in a twisting situation the weakest point will break.. which would you prefer a bent frame or a cracked pressurized cylinder that just so happens to be next to your head or facing your shoulder!

wtf happened to looking at pictures like that and just going ouch! whys this have to be a my marker wouldnt bend like that conversation?

[questionful]

whys this have to be a my marker wouldnt bend like that conversation?
Well, it is AO. . .

AO, you need a psychiatrist!

[drg]

ohh bad analogy.. cars are built sturdier or actually stiffer than ever before which is why weight is close to or more than the cars of yester year.. but they are also built with crumple zones that absorb the force of the impact to keep it away from the driver.. hence crashes of yester year that were fatal or now survivable.

Well it was a simplified analogy, of course, and you hit upon the inherent contradiction in having a stiff chassis yet having areas meant to fail to dissipate crash energy. Of course I'm talking about the latter and not the former.

What you are left with is more damage to impart less force to the occupants. Bottom line is a newer car gets smashed up more than an older car (generally speaking) in a similar accident, yet the newer car can be as safe or safer.

BTW the added weight does not usually come from the chassis; newer chassis are often stiffer but lighter. The difference is made up in appointments such as sound dampening, cushioning and extra weather sealing ... making for a more buttoned-down, quieter, smoother car.


onto to topic.. what no one seems to realize is that in retro spec the frame bending turns out to be better than it staying stiff in the same circumstances that caused the bend. on the other side of it with the exception of the UL frame none of these frames have obvious weak points and all of them hold up well enough for normal use.

on top of that is thickness that you can make a frame and still have room for the board and a battery. the plain fact is that the guns pictured should not need to be designed to hold up against these types of accidents and all of these omg complaints need to just stop!

Again in a twisting situation the weakest point will break.. which would you prefer a bent frame or a cracked pressurized cylinder that just so happens to be next to your head or facing your shoulder!

wtf happened to looking at pictures like that and just going ouch! whys this have to be a my marker wouldnt bend like that conversation?

Amen to that!

[Hilltop Customs]

bottom line is you hit something hard enough it will break.

Calling a marker overmilled based on a rare occurance where a player falls ontop of their marker and applies a large torque at the right angle to twist the frame is just ignorant. I think its BS that they say they "designed" it that way. More like they knew it was the part most likely to fail, but its much better to say they designed it to fail. They are a smart company, they realize that replacing a frame only costs them ~20 bucks(idk their cost, but its probably less than that....dont forget they just made ~900 bucks or more selling this gun to you) They also get a huge reputation boost....along with free advertising "hey look my guns busted, but the company replaced the frame for free! You should buy a marker just like mine" Dont get me wrong I think it is great the company behind the marker is willing to replace parts for free, but dont be confused and think they are a "good hearted" company...they just realize replacing a few parts for people makes them more money in the end.


And for what I really wanted to say, before I went off onto a tangent: Any person with half a brain shouldnt expect a grip frame that is composed of such a small cross section to hold up to large torques, or forces in general. Thats like thinking its possible for a person to climb up a tree thats 1 inch around.

edit: I hope that is coherant(spelling?) cant sleep at its now 6am here.

[Indignant]

hey man, if it isn't a tube on a block of metal it's overmilled, alright?

[SR_matt]

i think a) it was milled 2 much, b)the guy didnt pay attention to what he was doing c) the guy beat the heck out of that gun

maybe its because i do photography but im very used to the "save the equipment save the equipment" when im coming close to ground or other bad things. i rarely if ever go flat on my chest any way when i slide (i normally do baseball slides) but if i do i keep my gun up and only let the tank contact the ground more so as a slide than as a bump

ive heard of this stuff happening but i think it is as much abuse as it is manufacturing issues. these are paintball markers designed to shoot little balls of paint and other people in a game for fun these are not firearms designed to be put through hell and back in life and death situations. now should that make these this weak, no, but when it is put into its position these things are not thought of as things that need to go through such extremes.

i am some where in between on this subject when it gets down to it. from my growing knowledge of metals a lot of this can be prevented by properly working and treating the metals which would require slightly more attention and better designs. but i think this is what the people calling for lighter, smaller, faster need to have happen to them because people need to see the line at which usability fails. dont get me wrong i want a small light marker that is sturdy, works well and can put out like the best of them but i also know there is a line which i cant cross with out blowing the big bucks to get the marker made for crazy materials.

-matt

[drg]

I honestly don't know why Eclipse is suddenly being targeted with some kind of campaign alleging shoddy manufacturing and materials. Eclipse manufacturing has always been among the best in paintball.

[jackwood]

Can I comment?

I have posted on this subject several times on PBN but never here, but as you guys are paying it some attention I suppose I may as well have a go at explaining things here too.

The year before last we made a conscious decision as a company to take a look at the dovetail ASA/frame interface point. Through 05 and 06 we had a lot of incidents of people tearing the ASA off the dovetail mount during "accidents" (usually occurring during diving manoeuvres!). This destroyed the frame interface and the ASA and we ended up replacing 2 parts for people, the frame and the ASA. On top of that we had several cases of the hosing pulling out of the fittings after such an incident and the tank/hose flying around.

When we started to look at this when we started on the 07 design we decided that what we felt was best for us, and best from a safety point of view, was to have one sacrificial part, but have it so that that one part kept the tank and the gun body/grip together.

Without adding another "crumple" part between the frame and the ASA, this is what we thought offered the best compromise. The down side is that if you have a crash as bad as this one it will obviously damage the board too, but we feel that the quantities are so low of this type of incident that it warrants the risk.

Yes we do warrant this type of damage. Don't ask me why, but we do. We know people don't do this type of thing on purpose (most of the time!) and that 9/10 it is pure accident or mis-fortune that causes this type of bend.

Yes the gun is light. Yes the frame is milled light. Yes it aluminium. But at the end of the day, we would rather have someone bend a frame and us be able to say "here you go, lets fix that for you" rather than be looking at replacing a bent body, snapped FRM or In-Line reg or worse looking at some kid who just got all his teeth knocked out because he dove in the snake, spiked the barrel, snapped the tank off the ASA and it punched him in the mouth.

Jack

[SR_matt]

that is an interesting view, and understandable coming form the company

the fact that you cover it is very impressive and i do think states a lot about you as a company. but i still feel that light design changes or material changes will stop the whole issue all together.

may i ask what alloy is used on the egos?

i still give you props for covering it
-matt

[jackwood]

that is an interesting view, and understandable coming form the company

the fact that you cover it is very impressive and i do think states a lot about you as a company. but i still feel that light design changes or material changes will stop the whole issue all together.

may i ask what alloy is used on the egos?

i still give you props for covering it
-matt

6061-T6 exclusively for all parts bar some internal components that we prefer to use a 7000-series aluminium for (it is tougher but is no good for cosmetic anodising)

The point is: the load applied in this kind of incident is way more than 200lb. a 200lb guy, running and falling from 6' produces a force far in excess of the numbers that people are talking here. Under those loads, something has to give. Be it barrel-to-body interface, frame-to-body interface, ASA-to-frame interface, ASA-to-tank reg, tank-to-tank reg.

Something HAS to fail in this kind of collision. We just made a conscious decision to try and make it the frame, for the reasons outlined above.

Jack

[SR_matt]

k very cool, ya i am aware of the strength of that alloy.

i understand the logic here but i wonder why i dont hear about other guns having damage, maybe its because they bend something smaller, or do other damage that doesnt appear as bad as the bent frame

-matt

[B-Pow]

6061-T6 exclusively for all parts bar some internal components that we prefer to use a 7000-series aluminium for (it is tougher but is no good for cosmetic anodising)

The point is: the load applied in this kind of incident is way more than 200lb. a 200lb guy, running and falling from 6' produces a force far in excess of the numbers that people are talking here. Under those loads, something has to give. Be it barrel-to-body interface, frame-to-body interface, ASA-to-frame interface, ASA-to-tank reg, tank-to-tank reg.

Something HAS to fail in this kind of collision. We just made a conscious decision to try and make it the frame, for the reasons outlined above.

Jack

I think the biggest thought on this side of the fence isn't that the frame bends during a crash. It's the whole chicken-or-the-egg debate of what came first; was the frame ACTUALLY designed to bend for saftey, or was it just an unintended feature due to the over-lightening of markers. Personally it looks a little more like the latter is true because of the other markers with bent frames pictured in the PBn thread.

Even if it is the latter, I don't much care...I just want to "applaud" your marketing department for turning a possible negitive into a positive.

Anything that makes the game safer is great in my book...I'm just very sceptical of if this was an intended feature or just something that started to show up due to the high levels of milling and efforts to make the lightest marker possible.

[paint magnet]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of force is required to seperate the tank from the reg? (Not talking about torque applied when tightening the reg onto the tank, but the force required for it to "snap").

Honestly though, it seems like anyone who would seriously injure themselves by planting their marker in the ground will probably later on do the same thing by falling on a peg from a bunker that's come unstaked or something.

*edit*

Also, I wonder how much thought is put into engineering paintball-specific cylinders. They are tested and rated to 5/3 capacity as far as pressure is concerned, but is anyone checking to make sure the reg doesn't break off at the neck? How much stress is applied to the tank during a normal day without the gun landing in the ground?

[jackwood]

B-Pow. Well, we don't have a marketing department, so your applause would be falling on deaf ears. As for your skeptisism, not much I can do about that I am afraid. But let me put it this way: we had frames bend in 07 on the standard gun and on the SL74 (there are pics posted out there from 07). Knowing this was the case, why would I have designed the standard 08 and SL8r in pretty much the exact same way, with that knowledge to hand? Well I wouldn't, would I, unless I had a good reason to carry on producing new product with the same design! Like it had been pointed out previously, adding strength with a couple of cross-members in the frame would be simple.

Paint magnet, there is no single figure. The type of metal used on the reg, the internal machining of the reg, any cross-drilled relief holes drilled in the neck of the reg, and most importantly the torque applied to the reg in fixing it to the tank will all have an affect on the ultimate failurer mode and load of the system. We have to assume worse-case-scenario when we decide what we want to do with our product. We shouldn't have to, but we do.

[trevorjk]

i must say, i absolutly love when owners and representatives from other companies come onto these boards and actually tell us the truth with out throwing complete BS at us.

Jack, like when you took care of PunknCat, and the honesty now. i have alot of respect for you and your company. just bring the price of the ego down about a grand so i can buy one :p :cheers:

[B-Pow]

B-Pow. Well, we don't have a marketing department, so your applause would be falling on deaf ears. As for your skeptisism, not much I can do about that I am afraid. But let me put it this way: we had frames bend in 07 on the standard gun and on the SL74 (there are pics posted out there from 07). Knowing this was the case, why would I have designed the standard 08 and SL8r in pretty much the exact same way, with that knowledge to hand? Well I wouldn't, would I, unless I had a good reason to carry on producing new product with the same design! Like it had been pointed out previously, adding strength with a couple of cross-members in the frame would be simple.

I'm in no way trying to rip into you or your company, I was just looking for insight as to the development. Was this a R&D leap forward or an "oops" discovery.

Nothing against "oops" discoveries, if this is one, some of the worlds best inventions were accidents. I just prefer to be a well informed consumer, and if given the oppertunity to ask questions to the higher ups in a company I'm not going to pass it up.

[snoopay700]

i must say, i absolutly love when owners and representatives from other companies come onto these boards and actually tell us the truth with out throwing complete BS at us.

Jack, like when you took care of PunknCat, and the honesty now. i have alot of respect for you and your company. just bring the price of the ego down about a grand so i can buy one :p :cheers:
That's pretty much my only beef with the company, the ego is worth a small fortune.

Is it bad that i would buy an xmag for only a few hundred less though? :confused:

[jackwood]

B-Pow, I understand completely what you are saying and to answer you honestly, the T-Rail design was implemented to make sure that the ASA never came detached from the frame. That was our primary concern. From that point the development moved to deciding what would be the weak link, and how we could ensure with most certainty that it could deform to accommodate a critical impact without the tank ever becoming separated (either at the tank end, or so that the hose becomes the only link between tank and gun) from the grip and body of the gun. We played around with a separate piece between the ASA and the bottom of the grip, but we could not make it a size such that it did not effect the aesthetics/feel of the gun and yet accommodate the full absorption of a major impact.
Add into that we need to sacrifice the lowest cost item. The body is the most expensive item in the gun by several orders of magnitude, so me wanted to make sure that that NEVER got damaged (see some of the early SL66 egos that got crashed like this one here and you will see the body is warped and cannot be salvaged, meaning several hundred dollars at cost in the trash can right there).

That left just the frame to work with.

Now I am not vain enough to say that I got the Factor of Safety (FOS) in the frame 100% correct. Maybe it could be stronger and still be the critical fail point? But, as a company we are 100% happy with the results that the design delivers. We have had players come to us with smashed out teeth, broken ribs, broken collar bones, dislocated shoulders, all from bad dives. We are confident that with a different design those players could be looking at much more serious injuries from the gun, tank or worse. A new frame, maybe (in very rare occasions) a new board, and the gun is up and running at zero cost to the customer and a manageable cost to us.

[SCpoloRicker]

Well, we don't have a marketing department, so your applause would be falling on deaf ears.

Erm... Yes, you do.

Anyways, I would like to comment that it is great to see a high level rep from a manufacturer come to the boards to answer questions.

[Hilltop Customs]

wow jackwood, it is nice to see a represenative for a company that can make explainations and arguments(when needed) for their products that actually make sense. :cheers:

you wouldnt happen to have any pics of the T rail would you? I've never seen one be4.

[jackwood]

Erm... Yes, you do.


Erm, no we don't. If you could give me the names of the people that work in this mythical department I will attempt to track them down on Monday morning and ask them what they're playing at :p

Honestly, we have 2 people that do the graphical design, one of which also does all of our on-line content, and then everything else is just decided on an ad hoc basis. There is nobody that is "in charge" of marketing at PE. We all just contribute when and where neccessary in the area that each person is knowledgable in. We don't employ any marketing companies or have a marketing executive, or Brand Manager or whatever other name you want to call these people.

You know those 100,000 sqft glossy buildings you see Dye and SP in? That is just SO not us :) To start with, 100,000 sqft of building in the UK would cost you more than Buckingham Palace! No, we are defo the low rent cousins in this business :D

Jack

[jackwood]

you wouldnt happen to have any pics of the T rail would you? I've never seen one be4.

http://www.planeteclipse.com/ego8/ then click on Specifications at the top and you can zoom in on the T-rail.

Jack

[turbo chicken]

My 'Mag frame can pick up a car....

yeah... a carbon fiber frame... at that :eek:

[B-Pow]

B-Pow, I understand completely what you are saying and to answer you honestly, the T-Rail design was implemented to make sure that the ASA never came detached from the frame. That was our primary concern. From that point the development moved to deciding what would be the weak link, and how we could ensure with most certainty that it could deform to accommodate a critical impact without the tank ever becoming separated (either at the tank end, or so that the hose becomes the only link between tank and gun) from the grip and body of the gun. We played around with a separate piece between the ASA and the bottom of the grip, but we could not make it a size such that it did not effect the aesthetics/feel of the gun and yet accommodate the full absorption of a major impact.
Add into that we need to sacrifice the lowest cost item. The body is the most expensive item in the gun by several orders of magnitude, so me wanted to make sure that that NEVER got damaged (see some of the early SL66 egos that got crashed like this one here and you will see the body is warped and cannot be salvaged, meaning several hundred dollars at cost in the trash can right there).

That left just the frame to work with.

Now I am not vain enough to say that I got the Factor of Safety (FOS) in the frame 100% correct. Maybe it could be stronger and still be the critical fail point? But, as a company we are 100% happy with the results that the design delivers. We have had players come to us with smashed out teeth, broken ribs, broken collar bones, dislocated shoulders, all from bad dives. We are confident that with a different design those players could be looking at much more serious injuries from the gun, tank or worse. A new frame, maybe (in very rare occasions) a new board, and the gun is up and running at zero cost to the customer and a manageable cost to us.

Fair enough, I like your explinations and your ability to come on to the forums and answer pointed questions without insulting potential customers. Unlike that Gardener fiasco a few months ago on PBn (I usually don't go there, but when a high level rep is paying attention...that's an oppertunity to ask some real questions to the people who could/should be able to answer them).

I do give you a lot of repsect for backing up your products (I've heard great things about your customer service) and your willingness to have discussions with your market. :cheers:

When I do decide to get a newer electro I'll put the ego and etec on my list of things to consider.

[jackwood]

Well, to be honest, I don't understand why more people like myself in the industry don't like to converse with people like yourself. I mean, as long as the conversation is respectful and semi-intelligent, then why not? I just have a bee in my bonnet about how people sometimes portrays PE as this massive, multinational, mega-corp, and people believe it and then ride us and brand us as evil pigs. It's just rubbish. The company started 15 years ago with 3 people. The 2 owners and me. We were all kids and paintballers, and still are, at heart. Walk into our place, you get a cup of coffee with stale milk in a chipped mug and you won't find a single person in a shirt, let alone a tie. We do what we do because 1) we enjoy what we do and 2) don't know anything else.

I've always been very open and honest about why I design things the way I do. I don't feel I have anything to hide. When a product is out in the open market there are no secrets any more. I'll defend my decisions, like any designer would. But if someone can put up a strong case about something, I'll change it. It's happened many times, and I believe the product is stronger for that.

If you can get hold of me, I don't mind answering questions about pretty much anything. Unfortunately in this day and age (how old does that make me sound :) ) people are too lazy to do their own research and would rather just hear the things they want to hear and more often than not jump to the wrong conclusion. At least here you guys appear (for now) to give me your ear whilst I explain the way I see and do things, and then of course I expect you to go and make your own minds up on a situation. So thanks for that opportunity. It's a privilage I will try very hard not to abuse. Cheers.

[questionful]

Why have a marketing department when he apparently has a marketing hat? I want an ego now! :)

[pmstc]

PE has quality and customer service comparable to that of the old AGD. I don't know why people here are so quick to judge.

I mean I love mags, used em for 7 years.. but I know a quality gun when I see one and the ego is quality.

So I switched from AGD to PE and no regrets so far.

I guess there isn't much you can do about fanboys and haters besides ignore them :p

[MANN]

But at the end of the day, we would rather have someone bend a frame and us be able to say "here you go, lets fix that for you" rather than be looking at replacing a bent body, snapped FRM or In-Line reg or worse looking at some kid who just got all his teeth knocked out because he dove in the snake, spiked the barrel, snapped the tank off the ASA and it punched him in the mouth.

Jack

I really dont care about arguing on what is milled too much or less. I will say tho that this is the problem with the world today. If little johny is too stupid to move the marker out of the way when diving then he probably deserves the HPA being shoved in his mouth. And yes I would make a horrible safety manager.

carry on. :cheers:

[SR_matt]

i do feel that MANN, i used to work at a field and played with a bunch of guys that played top level tourney ball and were trying to get to that level and i saw them practicing slides, dives, moves, etc etc every weekend and never saw a big injury or damage to guns. these guys need to be practicing with otu guns first. i know there is always an accident that happens but im really surprised these guys can hit this hard to do so much damage the issue needs to be addressed

darwinism was working how dare you go against nature :p

i checked out that t rail, very nice logical progression over the dove tail rail. very simple and elegant, heck you cant tell its there until you check it out up close which IMHO is a perfect design characteristic
-matt

[Hilltop Customs]

jackwood, thanks for the link to the T-rail, that website is pretty nice. You should stick around here, probably sell a few more markers as you seem to be a great guy :cheers:

[Spencer]

jackwood, thanks for the link to the T-rail, that website is pretty nice. You should stick around here, probably sell a few more markers as you seem to be a great guy :cheers:

Jackwood please do stick around here, I always blew off the ego because it was an the AGG gun or whatever, but if this company is as great and small as I think it is, I will definatly pick up one...

I also though this company was similar to smart parts..

[Spencer]

I just did a tour of your website and I must say the layout and all the information is the best thing I have ever seen from a paintball website..

From the configurator to the matianence section, its great. Really hard to believe its such a small company.. I love suporting small companies, But usually the small companies aren't that popular.. Thats why I always liked agd macdev aka, the ego or eclipse however is so popular and thats the only thing that turns me off, but I can't say your doing anything wrong..

[snoopay700]

Why have a marketing department when he apparently has a marketing hat? I want an ego now! :)
Yeah, i'm pretty much the same, i used to be against PE just because i didn't even know anything about them, i just hated how everyone loved the ego when it didn't seem that there was anything special, they just said it was the end all be all of paintball guns. Now that one of the guys from the company has been talking i see things with a much different point of view, and the only thing i don't like about egos is the same thing i don't like about xmags, they cost too much.

[SR_matt]

i remember when the eclpise cockers were new and man, i wish i had one of those things. 2 guys i worked with shot them and they were such sexy guns. of course the one day the guy was seriously going to sell it for 100 (he was trying to sell it, got fed up with having it around since he had new guns his sponsor gave him and was like "if some one gives me 100 today they can take it) of course i didnt have 100 bucks to my name at that point though.

i didnt give the egos much credit when they came out, in fact i disliked them. more so that eclipse went to the fad of the stacked tube open bolt guns. now i respect them as decent markers. probably wouldnt drop the cash on them but then again i dont like electros and if i were to drop the cash i would personally go with a mini or an old e-cocker that no one messed up (not to sure about the cocker at this point though). but i dont have any issues with the egos and heck they have been turned into a sexy sexy gun now (i especially like the lime green that was on the mantis factory guns, thats what the cocker guy in my anecdote was shooting last i saw him since he was still play for MF)

-matt

[txaggie08]

If people would get over the diving obsession this wouldnt happen...

[snoopay700]

If people would get over the diving obsession this wouldnt happen...
To avoid things like this, i slide instead, you get into the bunker just as fast, you get as low down, yet your marker is always safe. Sliding feet first just seems like the way to go, you also have more control.

[SR_matt]

To avoid things like this, i slide instead, you get into the bunker just as fast, you get as low down, yet your marker is always safe. Sliding feet first just seems like the way to go, you also have more control.
not only that but you get to see whats going on as you come in. heck when you have to go down rapids with out a boat (unfortunate but it happens) you got feet first so thats blatant evidence feet first is safer.

a full out superman dive is never needed, i spent many weekends watching the local tourney guys practice their SM dives and they were very controlled and more of low runs that flowed into horizontal.

well i guess there are a few times if i went head first i wouldnt have gotten shot but at the same time most of those times i didnt have the paint to stay there any way.

-matt

[Hilltop Customs]

not only that but you get to see whats going on as you come in. heck when you have to go down rapids with out a boat (unfortunate but it happens) you got feet first so thats blatant evidence feet first is safer.

a full out superman dive is never needed, i spent many weekends watching the local tourney guys practice their SM dives and they were very controlled and more of low runs that flowed into horizontal.

well i guess there are a few times if i went head first i wouldnt have gotten shot but at the same time most of those times i didnt have the paint to stay there any way.

-matt

a lot of superman dives I see on the paintball field are just belly floppers...the impact competely jars the player and there is no way they could stay focused on the field as its happening. I guess a lot of people that play paintball never played baseball. On a hard dirt baseball field you just kindof lay down head first as your running, you learn quick that dirt is hard lol

I stick with the feet first baseball slide so i can pop right back up and start firing....for baseball I stuck with feet first cause when u hit the bag you can instantly be back up to you feet and take off if theres a bad play....man I miss baseball.

[SR_matt]

ya thats what our locals would practice for hours, they got pretty good about doing it smoothly and getting into their place well... but that only works perfectly on that spot of the field with just that much dew on the grass etc etc while i can base ball slide any where pretty easily

-matt

[pmstc]

really I don't think a superman dive should ever be needed anywhere but snake... Otherwise baseball dives or the dive where you kind of slide on one leg and then use your forward momentum to stand back up..

still, we're talking about throwing around 4500 psi. safety precautions have to be taken. props to PE :)

[kenndogg]

I remember when the E-blades for cockers came out and was the upgrade to get. It wasn't unheard of to see Jack Wood trolling the cocker forums for player feedback. It's good to his and PE's level of commitment haven't change after all these years.

[Ninjeff]

Superman dives are for the magazines and cameras. Thats it. They are totally impractical, hurt, and really serve no tactical purpose.

Now the REALLY good players will dive, head first into a snake, but its alot less of a dive, than it is a forward slide. The new PGi has a good shot by shot example of this. When done properly, there should always be some part of your body on the ground, ie:feet, then hands/elbows, then out stretch to a forward sliding motion. The times where some one is actually getting "air" is completely useless.
Other than the fact it looks cool. :cool:

Anyhow, on topic.

JackWood, let me say this: Not only is it infinitely cool to see you come over here and have a talk with us, I think it says something about your company. The guys at my field use Egos almost exclusively. ISU Redbirds (national champs!) come to mind. I had never shot one before, but was fortunate to shoot one of the guys Egos while we were closing up the field last week. I have to say, it was impressive.
Still, i always knew they were high quality guns, but just never wanted one because everyone has them. And (a big reason) is because i prefer to support companies that i feel like still have a "connection" to the player base. AGD is a good example. If i NEED something answered i know i can ask Tom and he will give it to me straight, i know that if i have a complaint about AGD (not that i could even think of one) that someone from AGD would listen, intently, to my complaint and talk me through it. I like that in a company. I just never thought Eclipse was like that. However, after seeing you come on here and have a good, honest discussion with us, i must say, i have a whole new opinion on PE. Will i buy a new Ego? heck no, im a poor musician, i cant afford that cost :p but i tell you what if you ever make an electro around the $3-400.00 range, i will look SERIOUSLY at it.

I think in this age of big fancy pants marketing blitzes and super sponsorships, flashy ads and internet hype some companies forget that sometimes the best way to sell your product is just to talk to the people. Be honest and approchable and avoid all the b.s. we grow accustomed to. You have probably made more people consider an Ego (on here) by just chatting than you ever could have with fancy ads or sponsorships.

[jackwood]

Thanks again guys for the feedback, it seriously means a lot to me. Obviously the company is bigger now than it was back when we made the Eclipse cockers. Back then the design, production, testing and customer support was.........me :)
Obviously now things had to move on once we stared to do the eblade frame. When that was at it's peak we had me and Steve as the design (mechanical and electronics respectively) and production department, with 2 guys doing the bulk of assembly (us cutting in and helping with big orders) and 1 guy handling goods in and out. I'd call that pretty small. All that was handled in a 800sqft building. The office and our store were in an adjoining similar sized building. Right now we have 4 guys that handle all the assembly of every Ego (all of them have been with us for over 4 years and 2 are the same that set off with E-Blade with us!), with another 3 that mix up testing, fixing and a bit of building. 1 guy handles goods in/out still, and then 1 production manager.
Aside from that there is still me and Steve, this year we took on a graduate designer to work with me on new projects and free up some of my time to work on new stuff, and then 2 guys (mentioned before, actually one guy and one gal) that do graphic design, clothing design, web design, etc and then 2 dedicated customer service guys, one of which is Nicky T and is also responsible for making the manuals and training our techs worldwide and making sure all the events are covered.
But basically those are the workers that are directly involved in producing the stuff you see day to day. Then there is the usual admin roles that are required in running a company. And the 2 bosses, Ledz and Julian.
So overall, I'd say it was a pretty compact unit, certainly when compared to some other companies I have visited :)
As for our products popularity, well of course we advertise, and of course we sponsor teams, but every company does that. What a lot of you guys don't get to hear about is that some of those Pro teams that play NPPL and NXL and you might call our Poster Boys actually buy their guns. Yep, they would rather pay to use our gun rather than get another gun for free. To me that says we did something right along the line. I think they do that because they get a very light gun that performs just as good as any other gun out there, but they also get a very reliable gun (these guys will but 50,000 shots a month through these guns without cleaning and lubing them :eek: ) and at every event they go to they know they get the backup of our techs who are there servicing every PE customer, not just the pro teams.
I don't think the popularity and growth of the gun can be attributed to astute marketing or advertising. We do make a good product. We do back it up. And every person in the company is either currently or has been a player on the tourney scene. And by the way, we make no bones about admitting that is the market our product is aimed at. We never design it to be dragged through a swamp, or to hammer in nails. And for that reason it is not for everyone.

As for making cheeper guns: well, I don't know if it will happen soon. We find it hard to lower the spec or compromise on quality to hit a budget price. It's never been the way we did business and it would require a fundimental change in our ethos as designers and company. Plus the level of support we like to offer cost a huge amount, and the lower you go with your pricing, the less margin is left to concentrate on that side of the product. But, anything is possible, but right now we have our hands full doing what we are doing and are happy where we are.

Sorry for the long post :) and of course I have what you could call a marketing hat. I work for the company. The difference is I'm not employed to do this. In fact it gets me in more trouble than I would care to mention :) but I consider myself a person and an enthusiast first and formost. Where I am in terms of what I do and who I do it for is more by accident than any intelligent design or plan :p

[s1im]

Not only does does this thread show the commitment of jack it also shows the matureity of The members of this forum :hail:
Forums can be a dangerious place for manufactures to visit and I'm proud of the inteligent comments and conversation that has been directed to him :)
Hope fully this means that he would not be wairy of becoming visible in a thread again.

I've had a silly amount of paintball markers and at least 9 PE markers, I have never had any problems with any of these and if any problems were created(mostly due to me fiddling!)
They were fixed and the customer service I had was exemplary!

I've only visited PE once and currently only own 2 "older" markers but I would not hesitate in buying another, based on the previous service and quality I have recieved.

I would not wish PE to make a "cheep" marker, If they made one I know that "financially speaking" it would not be able to have the same quality and finish that I now associate with the PE brand.
The same goes for AGD, would a x-mag be as good as it is if it had to originally retail for sub $500.

Oh and back on the subject, I'm too lazy to dive any how!

[Ninjeff]

Oh dont get me wrong, i can totally understand why they dont make a "low end" marker. I really do, but i cant blow smoke up his bum and say that i'd buy an Ego new. Just wont happen. Fact of the matter is that i just couldnt afford one. No matter HOW much i would want one. $1000.00+ is just too much. For me anyway.

[pmstc]

Oh dont get me wrong, i can totally understand why they dont make a "low end" marker. I really do, but i cant blow smoke up his bum and say that i'd buy an Ego new. Just wont happen. Fact of the matter is that i just couldnt afford one. No matter HOW much i would want one. $1000.00+ is just too much. For me anyway.
Look in to Etek 1s. I bought one brand new for 450, and used I'm pretty sure they can get down to 300. There aren't a whole lot of differences between an etek and an ego6 either. Nice little guns :)

[spadge67]

Great thread!

I've officially burned off 30 minutes of my work day :cheers:

[going_home]

Great thread!

I've officially burned off 30 minutes of my work day :cheers:

Your termination notice is in your email inbox heheh .

:shooting:

[snoopay700]

Wait, PE doesn't design their markers to be able to be used as hammers? And they want how much for them? That's just too much money for that lack of versatility. :)

Anyway, yeah i wouldn't buy one new either, i mean i definitely would look into a used one or something, but i still just don't know that i'll ever buy one of your guns just because they cost so much. Same thing with the xmag, i love them and want one, but don't really think i'll ever own one.

[68magOwner]

any time there is THAT MANY of anything in circulation, people are going to find a way to screw a few of them up. Im positive if there were still as many mags in circulation as there are egos, there would be the same sort of incidents with mags. You just cant help freak accidents in every few thousand units.

[Chronobreak]

any time there is THAT MANY of anything in circulation, people are going to find a way to screw a few of them up. Im positive if there were still as many mags in circulation as there are egos, there would be the same sort of incidents with mags. You just cant help freak accidents in every few thousand units.


there may be alot in circulation but compared to the mag and alot of other guns they ahve not been in circulation for very long at all.

and as far as freak accident, i think only PE knows how many frames have done this, and doubt they will or are willing to release that info

jack, wether i agree or not as to the reasoning and necesity of the "crumple zone" or "crush" frame i really appreciate you responding maturely and intelligently

:cheers:

[jackwood]

there may be alot in circulation but compared to the mag and alot of other guns they ahve not been in circulation for very long at all.

and as far as freak accident, i think only PE knows how many frames have done this, and doubt they will or are willing to release that info

jack, wether i agree or not as to the reasoning and necesity of the "crumple zone" or "crush" frame i really appreciate you responding maturely and intelligently

:cheers:

No problem. It helps when you are a (reasonably) mature and (reasonably) intelligent person :p

Jack

[bryceeden]

Said by Jack Wood himself in the PBN thread.


OK, everyone here is alittle history on the "Crash Frame". A player at World Cup bent his Ego 7 frame and took it to PE to be fixed, they told him that it wasn't covered under warrenty because it was his fault he dove like that. The player then litterally thru his Ego away and made a big deal of doing so. He went over to the BLAST venue(which was very near the PE one) and bought a Bob Long Protege and used it the remainder of the cup and spred his PE story all over the place. Bob Long picked up this story and ran with it over on PBN. Jack Wood got on there trying to defend the PE decision not to replace it and asked if BLAST would have replaced the frame. The BLAST guys replyed that firest thier frame wouldn't bend like that and second if it did they would absolutly replace it free. About a week after that PE started to replace the flood of bent EGO 7 frames free and began marketing it as a "crash frame". It was not intentional its just more proof of how good PE is at marketing and hype. THe DM7 and DM8 frames along with some Shocker frames all bend like that, its becaust they are milled so thin to make them lighter. It was not an "intentional safty feature".

http://1.1.1.3/bmi/www.zdspb.com/media/busted/twisted_ul2.jpg

[jackwood]

That's utter rubbish, Bryce.

That "incident" was at World Cup 2007 when the Ego7 had been out for over 12 months and we were launching the Ego8.

We had had multiple cases of bent frames on Ego7 and SL74 prior to that incident and every one previous to that had been replaced free of charge, a quick search on PBN will reveal that to you (if you could be bothered to spend the time). It had been company policy to replace bent and broken frames in 05 and 06, well before Ego7 came out. Get your facts straight, and you time-line synched before you spout stuff like this.

You will find that that "incident" was a simple heat-of-the-moment miscommunication between an event-employed tech and an anxious customer. Nothing more.

Jack

[bryceeden]

That's utter rubbish, Bryce.

That "incident" was at World Cup 2007 when the Ego7 had been out for over 12 months and we were launching the Ego8.

We had had multiple cases of bent frames on Ego7 and SL74 prior to that incident and every one previous to that had been replaced free of charge, a quick search on PBN will reveal that to you (if you could be bothered to spend the time). It had been company policy to replace bent and broken frames in 05 and 06, well before Ego7 came out. Get your facts straight, and you time-line synched before you spout stuff like this.

You will find that that "incident" was a simple heat-of-the-moment miscommunication between an event-employed tech and an anxious customer. Nothing more.

Jack


Jack, I support your decision and freely admit that your company has some of the best customer service in the industry. I agree with you that the "crash frame" is much safer than the alternative tank to the face. And I'll even go so far as to say that I don't have a hard time seeing you replacing them free befor the cup. But I believe that your exact quote in the thread was "That is above the call of warrenty. I suppose you would expect your truck fixed for free if you drove it into a tree on the way out of Smokey Bones?" I agree with you there, and applaud you for your policy of replacing it now as it is "above the call of warrenty", but you'll never be able to convince me that the crash frame was intentional and always replaced free unless you can provide something advertising it that predates that statement. Because I believe that Terry's statement "if any player infact falls badly while participating at an event and the same thing happened, he would get a new frame from us, without charge or grief. Surely we'd also be concerned whether he may have hurt themself in the process" had alot to do with the decision to replace it free instead of bending it back. I supported your company back when I owned a Pro shop and still would if I still did, but back when the Ego 7 first came out and up to this insident we are speaking of I never heard or saw the words "Crash Frame" any where. I am out of the industry now, and seldom even get to play anymore so I'll understand if you don't want to provide proof of this and I would searh PBN but as usual there are too many users on now for the search to work. So other than this post I won't perpetuate that story and I'll give you the benafit of the doubt or atleast keep quiet about it in the future.

[jackwood]

Jack, I support your decision and freely admit that your company has some of the best customer service in the industry. I agree with you that the "crash frame" is much safer than the alternative tank to the face. And I'll even go so far as to say that I don't have a hard time seeing you replacing them free befor the cup. But I believe that your exact quote in the thread was "That is above the call of warrenty. I suppose you would expect your truck fixed for free if you drove it into a tree on the way out of Smokey Bones?" I agree with you there, and applaud you for your policy of replacing it now as it is "above the call of warrenty", but you'll never be able to convince me that the crash frame was intentional and always replaced free unless you can provide something advertising it that predates that statement. Because I believe that Terry's statement "if any player infact falls badly while participating at an event and the same thing happened, he would get a new frame from us, without charge or grief. Surely we'd also be concerned whether he may have hurt themself in the process" had alot to do with the decision to replace it free instead of bending it back. I supported your company back when I owned a Pro shop and still would if I still did, but back when the Ego 7 first came out and up to this insident we are speaking of I never heard or saw the words "Crash Frame" any where. I am out of the industry now, and seldom even get to play anymore so I'll understand if you don't want to provide proof of this and I would searh PBN but as usual there are too many users on now for the search to work. So other than this post I won't perpetuate that story and I'll give you the benafit of the doubt or atleast keep quiet about it in the future.

I am not denying that in that incident the temp tech may just have tried to bend it back. But that is not, and has never been our policy.

As for the term "Crash Frame" I have no idea where that came from. It cerainly wasn't from us.

PBN search is working fine, I just went and used it to find the thread you quoted.

I will go and find other threads now that show we always replaced the frame FOC. The only case I can think of where we haven't was at the same Cup where a player came to us and told us he wrapped his gun round a telegraph post after loosing a game. He destroyed the frame, OOPS, board, window, trigger, bearing carrier. All busted. We fixed the gun back up for a fraction of the cost of those parts because he was very polite, apologetic and honest.

I'll be back with those links.

Jack

[jackwood]

Here you go:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=40465077#post40465077 As you can see, this reply is prior to WC2007 and the posts that are quoted in that reply pre-date that reply (obviously I am not a Time Lord).

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=40468506#post40468506 Same thread, additional reply.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=39463107#post39463107 And this one from a few months previous to that.



Apology accepted ;)