The Revolutionary Gun

[Maghog]

Tom asked in the other thread what would be a truly new product as far as a paintgun goes. Not just some new gun with new milling and better efficiency, but something really different.
I had an idea once, and when the warp feed came out, I realized that it could one day be possible.

The setup would include a gun mounted on your forearm, with a small trigger switch in your hand. On your back would be a pack of 1-3000 paintballs, with a warp feed style apparatus pushing balls up and along your arm, into the gun.

The Mag would be the perfect base for such a design, being a single tube and all. Remove the grip frame, redesign the sear and the feed angle, and it's just about there. Theoretically, the mounting should be versatile enough so that it could even be hand held like a regular gun.

Of course, the version of the future would be shoulder mounted, Predator-style, with sensors in your mask aiming the gun whereever you look.

I don't think any of this is impossible, it just requires time, thought, and of course a hefty investment. It probably won't ever happen, but Tom did ask, and it's fun to dream.

So what would your revolutionary gun be?
Dan@Triggernomics

[Ninjeff]

Something where size/fit is fully adjustable at ALL of its contact points with me. Example:
The tank/shoulder (where it rests against my body) the frame (where i hold it, HOW i hold it/fire it, and the foregrip. And by adjustable, i dont mean minor adjustments, i mean full on adjustments. Everyone has a different posture, style of shooting a marker. None of them are right or wrong, just best for what works for shooting accurately and moving the gun in accordance with any giver situation behind any bunker.
And when i say adjust, i mean the ability to do so almost tool-less, and on the fly..
So its be like this:
An Emag with both electronic AND Mech operation, an asa/tank adjustable for forward, upward, and angle. a frame that can go from 45-90-Y-frame-Z frame style and a foregrip that can go from 15* to vertical, with front to back adjustablility too. Something that is light, but not too light. Balance is key and adjustable to fit many shapes and styles of player.

[Hilltop Customs]

your idea sounds cool, accuracy might not be too great since you dont really have any way of steadying a gun mounted only to your forearm.(cant shoulder it, and no foregrip) but it would be great shooting around corners.

mine would be a bulpup emag, bottom fed with the hopper/force feed integrated into the body of the gun(the part you shoulder would be hollow and have a hopper lid on the side) l it doesnt matter if its a mag or not, just a bulpup marker that contains the paintballs within the shoulder stock itself and is compact.

Hopefully i'll be building one this fall if I have time.

[Jaan]

mine would be a bulpup emag, bottom fed with the hopper/force feed integrated into the body of the gun(the part you shoulder would be hollow and have a hopper lid on the side) l it doesnt matter if its a mag or not, just a bulpup marker that contains the paintballs within the shoulder stock itself and is compact.

Hopefully i'll be building one this fall if I have time.Funny, that's what I'm working on today :D

Once you decide to build a bullpup mag, it doesn't have to be a real e-mag, you can use the board and trigger frame off of anything. Put an extention on the 'Mag rail to mount the frame. Since you can mount the solinoid where it has to be and just run wires to the trigger you can place the grip anyplace, that's the cool thing about electronics. Bottom feeding's been discussed here as well in the past, or maybe it was M Carter Brown, can't remember.

Good luck with yours!

[Bagheera]

I'm working on the Park-52 Mag, which is similar to Famousgamer's SniperMag in that it holds a Q-Loader in the rifle stock, with the difference being that the Park-52 Mag has the air in a 9 oz tank held horizontally under the barrel, and the SniperMag has remote air. After building the frame and mounting the components for the Park-52 Mag, I realized that the same could be applied to a bullpup version with the air and Q-Loader mounted horizontally in a stock.


Revolution: Tom Kaye and Automag have revolutionized paintball so many times, it would be hard to top. I think the best way to revolutionize paintball would be to make an affordable, mass-produced Automag, and get them sold in mainstream paintball stores again.

[Spencer]

I think the best way to revolutionize paintball would be to make an affordable, mass-produced Automag, and get them sold in mainstream paintball stores again.

Nah, Im more with the type of top quality and built when ordered only..

[senghing27]

Sharks with laser beams.... :eek:

I'd like a gun that is comfy to shoot, as long as it's comfy.. I'm content

[Warwitch]

Revolutionary guns.....by Springfield. :p

http://www.hrtyrergalleries.com/images/1200.jpg





Seroiusly though, Id like to see something (besides an A5) with a built in hopper that ISNT mounted on top. The "in-stock" hopper idea sounds really good. I really find the typical hopper setup the most significant flaw in pb design.

[Toll]

A marker that runs purely on rechargeable batteries and compresses it's own air.

[PumpPlayer]

I think that with the advent of electronically-controlled markers, each advance in efficiency, ROF or consistency is going to be marginal at best. IMHO, there are really only two things that can be improved on if electronic-controlled firing modes (i.e. ramping, etc.) continue to be permitted - ergonomics and reliability/versatility.

Reliability is key, of course, as is versatility. Interchangable boards (say, by switching out the foregrip of the Mini) are a great idea but how about different feed options. Of sure, we've seen that before on the XMag but what about something really revolutionary? What if the entire feed block were simply on a swivel and could be moved throughout a full 360 degrees of motion? With the advent of force feed, it shouldn't be an issue to feed it from any position, should it?

Furthermore, we could put the expected foregrip opposite the hopper. Imagine simply leaning out of your bunker and having the hopper stay behind cover with a simple twist of your wrist.

Lastly, why are we still using pistol grips when they're not comfortable in any position? All precision athletic equipment for any other sport is highly customized and made to be very ergonomic. Why are we still stuck on a pistol grip in paintball?

Arguably, the Z/Y grips were great attempts to break away from the mold but they weren't very well received. It's unfortunate, really, but there you have it. But what about a grip that actually improved your ability to fire the gun?


Quick exercise - hold up your hand and pretend to walk an electronic trigger. You'll notice that while your forefinger moves fairly independently, your middle finger causes your ring finger to move as well. Your pinky is also affected. Your thumb is the only thing left to take solid control of the gun and it's in a very poor position to offer vertical support with a pistol style grip.

Now imagine this. Tuck your elbow in and put your hand palm up as if you were carrying a tray. You can get in much tighter AND you have more control. Right, like a Z-grip, you say. Almost. The Z-grip solves the stance problem but it does not address firing ability and involuntary movement. Since we're using electronics now, we can put the switch anywhere on the gun we want. There's no need to even put it on the frame, in fact, and there's certainly no need for it to face forward. Imagine putting the switch behind a long, curved horizontal trigger on the rear strong side of the gun. Use a bulbous, molded grip with a strap that secures the back of your hand. You'll need to have a guard over the trigger to meet the protection requirements but that's easy enough to do.

Now notice that when you hold your hand upwards, as if supporting the weight of the gun through your palm that we actually have three independent, unlinked control mechanisms with which to fire - the forefinger, the middle finger AND the thumb. Try drumming on the desk with just your first two fingers. Now try adding the thumb and "rolling." Even novice banjo and guitar players can use this technique to play very rapidly and the truly amazing players are easily above 20 notes per second -all with very precise control. I'm not a particularly skilled player and I can easily sustain 13-15 per second with a "forward roll."


I say that if we want to talk about a true innovation - let's make ramping obsolete!
Who says you have to use two fingers to pull the trigger and who says that the trigger needs to be mounted on the front of a pistol-style grip?

The best part is, it could easily be made into a $150 aftermarket frame for just about any existing paintball gun.

[rkjunior303]

A marker that runs purely on rechargeable batteries and compresses it's own air.

Have you seen the eVolt?

[snoopay700]

Have you seen the eVolt?
Didn't they stop with that one for some reason though?

It could still be done with what we have yeah, but it wouldn't save any weight, if anything it would add weight.

[Xmagterror]

I think AGD should make a new style of emag but ditch the heavy battery and solenoid and use a 9V battery and an air solenoid/ air cylinder to pull the sear. and then to top it off redesign the gun to make it look awesome and 3D machine it all. Thats what its really going to take to compete with the rest of these wild out of the box guns.
Just stick with the X valve but make everything else new and improved. shave atleast 1/2 a pound off.

[snoopay700]

Well since we're talking about revolutionary guns, i'm currently trying to work on a design for a prototype that i know for a fact has never been done, and so i'm trying to test it in my head, and let me tell you, i'm running into headache after headache, but i think i'm getting closer to something that'll work. Now the main problem i have is it needs a very custom solenoid, but at the same time i don't know if i could sell it without having to pay royalties.

[JesseB]

Seroiusly though, Id like to see something (besides an A5) with a built in hopper that ISNT mounted on top. The "in-stock" hopper idea sounds really good. I really find the typical hopper setup the most significant flaw in pb design.

lol

play stock class or get a qloader you have options if you dont like hoppers.

[Spider-TW]

lol

play stock class or get a qloader you have options if you dont like hoppers.
I don't mind hoppers, but I do think a marker designed around a good feed mechanism could make an overall improvement in reliability. The A-5 is just a step in that direction and there was that other marker that never came out with the rotary breech and integrated hopper on top.

Everything else so far has been about the bolt and air delivery; get the balls in however you can. Making a pretty loader, breech, electronic bay, battery holding, regulating (or not regulating) grip frame that is at least a little customizable is a challenge for sure.

Kind of a carbon fiber warp frame with bin on it.

[JRingold]

Hopper not on top.. It has been done: Warp, Q-Loader, Long Bow, and my favorite ATS, http://www.getrealpaintball.com/.

I don't think that's revolutionary...

I am stuck on the Electromagnetic idea though. Not sure how it would work... What ever happened to that E-Volt thing?

[snoopay700]

Hopper not on top.. It has been done: Warp, Q-Loader, Long Bow, and my favorite ATS, http://www.getrealpaintball.com/.

I don't think that's revolutionary...

I am stuck on the Electromagnetic idea though. Not sure how it would work... What ever happened to that E-Volt thing?
The evolt seemed like a good idea, but i suspect that it was basically an AEG airsoft rifle for paitnball. That means that you can't change the velocity at all, you can't change the barrel, etc etc.

[MoeMag]

The evolt seemed like a good idea, but i suspect that it was basically an AEG airsoft rifle for paitnball. That means that you can't change the velocity at all, you can't change the barrel, etc etc.

Sure you can. An AEG can be modified with various barrels and velocities.
By changing the spring rate in your piston, you can increase your velocity. This usually takes away from your cycle rate and battery life, but these too may be upgraded with larger more powerful batteries/motors.

Also barrels are interchangeable. I had a madbull barrel in mine that was a tighter diameter. Helped with the air seal behind the ball, but this required the use of only high grade bb's so that nothing would get stuck.

[snoopay700]

Sure you can. An AEG can be modified with various barrels and velocities.
By changing the spring rate in your piston, you can increase your velocity. This usually takes away from your cycle rate and battery life, but these too may be upgraded with larger more powerful batteries/motors.

Also barrels are interchangeable. I had a madbull barrel in mine that was a tighter diameter. Helped with the air seal behind the ball, but this required the use of only high grade bb's so that nothing would get stuck.
I mean without taking it apart or buying extra parts. And by different barrels, i mean if you change the stock barrel it will change the velocity.

[MoeMag]

I mean without taking it apart or buying extra parts. And by different barrels, i mean if you change the stock barrel it will change the velocity.

True that. :cheers:

[Warwitch]

lol

play stock class or get a qloader you have options if you dont like hoppers.


Have both. Just saying... ;)

[snoopay700]

True that. :cheers:
Yeah, it just seems like that marker would have a whole bunch of problems like that. It's a good idea, just wouldn't work well.

[MoeMag]

I would like to see development in a 50cal paintball system.

Real guns use multiple calibers for various purposes. I think various paintball calibers should be investigated.

with the decreased mass the velocity could be increased. the whole f=ma thing.

I would love a gun that shoots flatter and farther with greater accuracy.

I have been thinking for a while now I would like to make a scaled 50cal version of an classic valve.

[211]

RAP4 has their guns in 43 cal
and the old crossman paintball revolver was 50 cal
they just dont catch on
some places its hard to get decent paint, and that would become an even larger issue if you have to stock multiple sizes
dont get me wrong, smaller paintball/less weight+more fps=same impact, but most insurance policies for fields requires them to shoot under a set fps
so using a 50 cal youd still be required to shoot 300 fps

[angrysasquatch]

Pump- that 360 degree thing sounds great, but what would hold on the front half of the gun and barrel? Basically, everything in a 360 degree sweep would have to have a hole, therefore there isn't any material left. Now, you could do something crazy like the entire feed is the breech, and the whole thing turns, and have bushings and circlips on front and back halves of the gun, but there would be so much slop in such a design that it would have horrible accuracy, due to the barrel rattling back and forth, and would be very brittle (omgee that gun couldnt even take a fat guy's weight forcing it into the ground after that slide what a pile!! 11)

Anyways, a old-style Matrix allowed the breech to rotate from warp left to warp right positions, and any angle inbetween. Didn't really catch on, and was a lot of weight to be carting around to use a system that was adjustable on the fly.

As to the person who wanted a fully adjustable marker, all those adjustments are not as solid as a continuous chunk of aluminum bolted, and also would add a lot of weight if built sufficiently rugged. There is a drop which allows you to change the angle of the drop in relation to the gun and the angle of the tank in relation to the drop. Adding just a extendable drop to that would make the "play" unbearable, I think.

What paintball really needs is guns which are sold with one set of a large collection of parts, that is to say different drops and whatnot, different grips, all with the same styling. The player would go to their proshop and get their gun sized to them. essentially the same idea as above, but none of the disadvantages of undue play. This would do a few things, the player would have a much greater sense of pride over their gun, the brick and mortar shops would recover an advantage over online retailers, essentially fulfilling the role of a gunsmith, and the shop could go over all of the safety concerns of paintball guns (tank safety, mask rules, and where it is appropriate to use the gun). If this were to actually happen, it would solve many of paintball's current problems.

[russc]

I would like to see development in a 50cal paintball system.

Real guns use multiple calibers for various purposes. I think various paintball calibers should be investigated.

with the decreased mass the velocity could be increased. the whole f=ma thing.

I would love a gun that shoots flatter and farther with greater accuracy.

I have been thinking for a while now I would like to make a scaled 50cal version of an classic valve.

Smaller calibers lose range because they have less breaking power and momentum. Even at higher speeds, they have less effective range than bigger calibers.

[manike]

The evolt seemed like a good idea, but i suspect that it was basically an AEG airsoft rifle for paitnball. That means that you can't change the velocity at all, you can't change the barrel, etc etc.


The E-Volt was cocker threaded so you could change barrels. You could also adjust the velocity electronically.

By the time it was built the market had changed so dramatically that a study showed it wasn't feasible to continue at that point.

We had a fully working gun when the decision to stop it was made. :(

[unived micindev]

hmm...
no body, maybe just a rail bcz of frame - feedneck as part of valve system and u will screw barrell right in to valve...less wight, less probs with cleaning...possibility to change position of feedneck without tools or removing it....
what about air regulator as part of valve? - so u will screw bottle right in to valve - need to change position bcz of ergonomy :(
mech frame with modes? - sounds strange but just a idea...

i was always wondering why they just dont make airsystems with bolt and trigger frame...i know, i know...ergonomy...but u can still play with it

[snoopay700]

The E-Volt was cocker threaded so you could change barrels. You could also adjust the velocity electronically.

By the time it was built the market had changed so dramatically that a study showed it wasn't feasible to continue at that point.

We had a fully working gun when the decision to stop it was made. :(
Hmm, then maybe it doesn't work exactly like i thought it did, i figured it worked like an airsoft gun, i guess it didn't if you could actually change the velocity electronically.

[thejere]

This notion of a *revolutionary new* marker has always been a pet peeve of mine

What do we expect? lets go through it

range: limited by physics, but there is the flatline
rof: capped by most fields, and any high end electro can empty a halo in under 10s
efficiency: most markers can do a case with a 68/45 and gone are the days of 10 man events where the back men carry 20 pods each
consistency: making it cheaper requires a cut in quality leading to poor consistency
hopper: halo, q, warp, etc.
barrel break: eyes, lvl, squeege

If the marker is to change, the rules need to first
12 grams to Constant air
pump to semi
semi to lectric
grav. feed to force

I bet yall have good markers, learn to shoot em don't expect them to win for you