classic SP lie debunked

[cockerpunk]

I have threadjacked a thread in the DLX Forum, which I do apologize for. So, this will be the new thread for the backseat engineers. Let me tell a little story...

Back in 99 or 2000, Tippmann debuted the Flatline barrel. They had this target rage setup that challenged people to shoot the back targets. The Range was about 40 yards in length, and utilized banners so people could not arc their guns to hit the targets. Obviously, with a Flatline and Tippmann 98, you could hit the back targets all day and night. Ben Tippmann was the guy running the target range when I went up to it to shoot my KAPP Cocker. I had it all decked out with Tornado valve.. etc. I chrono'd my gun @ 300fps using their chono at the range which was a red radar one. I then shot my gun, and I could not hit the back targets. My balls were rolling up to the end. Graham Easton from Smart Parts comes up with a Shocker 4X4. He chrono'd it at 265, and then proceeded to hit the back targets. Ben Tippmann told him that he had to leave.

I am not saying that Lower pressure makes it shoot further. And I saw this when I was a Smart Parts hater as well. Only a few guns I have seen have been able to shoot futher then other guns at the same velocity. The old Shocker, the DM4, and the original Matrix. Why is this?? I am also going to do an actual test on this to proove it when I have time. That might take me awhile as well to do. I am a very busy man. But, why do you think that the Shocker 4x4 could hit the back targets and nothing else could except by using a Flatline? I really would like to know and I know that there are plenty of back seat engineers that would love to tackle this one.


But I remember being shot by shockers many times and telling those people to chrono, and they were under the field speed. Which led me to belive that the ball was travelling faster at 30 ft then any other gun I had seen at the time.


I am not making a false claim. My original post is something I saw with my own eyes back when even I was a Smart Parts hater


For me, the luxe seemed flatter on the trajectory. I have to play with it more before I can say anything like I did in my first post. I have seen the 4X4 shoot further than my cocker chrono'd 35 fps than mine.


I do not just make stuff up.


If I am wrong on what I saw, I will be more than happy to say I was wrong.


If the tests prove me 100% wrong, then I will say so.

well, your 100% wrong.

me and bryce did our testing this morning, on a nice sunny day, about 75 out, with winds less than 5 mph, and it was a cross wind.

the rig was a gun chronograph, set on a bench. the barrel of each gun was placed on a stand behind the chonro, and a level used on the barrel to level the gun. each gun was fired about 30 times. we could easily see (though you might not on the youtube quality video, where the balls ended up at a range of 100 ft, at an initial angel of 0 degrees and a initial height of about 3 feet. leveling the guns was tricky becuase many guns have changed OD on there barrels, but we found a place to get the level on there easy enough.

bryce read the chrono, held the tip of the barrel down and made sure i was level, i shot the guns, and my girlfriend filmed it.

the results -

at 260 to 270 the balls would hit the plywood

at 275ish they would hit the middle rung of the fence

at 280 to 290 they would pass between the top and middle rungs of the fence

and at 300 or above they would hit or fly over the top rung of the fence

REGARDLESS OF WHAT GUN WE USED

it got the point where before bryce even read off the chrono speed, i could tell within a few FPS what the chrono speed was, based on where the ball passed though the fence.

YOUR GUN DOES NOT MATTER.

videos -

intro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X1i8Uhwss0

testing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfJmHct2tlc

final thoughts - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSyFr4me0kM

while this test was hardly even scientific, the results and consistency we got with the rig shocked me. we tried to replicate what sean said happened, and we couldn't (without breaking any rules). billy is wrong, sean is wrong, and the whole thing just simply did not happen the way the story was told. it could not have happened.

as for the recoilish, wobbly mount test, we basically just did it. i held and shot the guns, and bryce made sure the barrel did not move to far out of alignment. none of the guns we shot had any difference, and they all had very different recoil characteristics. it did not matter. recoil does not matter except in burst fire.

[Resurection]

well, your 100% wrong.

me and bryce did our testing this morning, on a nice sunny day, about 75 out, with winds less than 5 mph, and it was a cross wind.

the rig was a gun chronograph, set on a bench. the barrel of each gun was placed on a stand behind the chonro, and a level used on the barrel to level the gun. each gun was fired about 30 times. we could easily see (though you might not on the youtube quality video, where the balls ended up at a range of 100 ft, at an initial angel of 0 degrees and a initial height of about 3 feet. leveling the guns was tricky becuase many guns have changed OD on there barrels, but we found a place to get the level on there easy enough.

bryce read the chrono, held the tip of the barrel down and made sure i was level, i shot the guns, and my girlfriend filmed it.

the results -

at 260 to 270 the balls would hit the plywood

at 275ish they would hit the middle rung of the fence

at 280 to 290 they would pass between the top and middle rungs of the fence

and at 300 or above they would hit or fly over the top rung of the fence

REGARDLESS OF WHAT GUN WE USED

it got the point where before bryce even read off the chrono speed, i could tell within a few FPS what the chrono speed was, based on where the ball passed though the fence.

YOUR GUN DOES NOT MATTER.

videos -

intro - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X1i8Uhwss0

testing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfJmHct2tlc

final thoughts - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSyFr4me0kM

while this test was hardly even scientific, the results and consistency we got with the rig shocked me. we tried to replicate what sean said happened, and we couldn't (without breaking any rules). billy is wrong, sean is wrong, and the whole thing just simply did not happen the way the story was told. it could not have happened.

as for the recoilish, wobbly mount test, we basically just did it. i held and shot the guns, and bryce made sure the barrel did not move to far out of alignment. none of the guns we shot had any difference, and they all had very different recoil characteristics. it did not matter. recoil does not matter except in burst fire.


{in my best british accent} "I'm not dead yet!"

[insixdays777]

BURN!!!!!!!!! :rofl:

[questionful]

Let's all look up our PBN passwords and spam that thread with these links!!!

[punkncat]

{in my best british accent} "I'm not dead yet!"

Monty FTW

[snoopay700]

:clap:

Good job, hopefully he'll admit he's wrong, and i hope he just doesn't say that it's not a good test because you didn't use something to hold the gun.

The one thing that that video left me wondering (still) is how old cockerpunk is, because he looks like he's not above 21 at the most, and sounds a bit younger than that, yet he talks like he was fairly old in 97, so yeah, i'm just not even sure because if i'm right that means he was about 10 or 11 then.

[cockerpunk]

:clap:

Good job, hopefully he'll admit he's wrong, and i hope he just doesn't say that it's not a good test because you didn't use something to hold the gun.

The one thing that that video left me wondering (still) is how old cockerpunk is, because he looks like he's not above 21 at the most, and sounds a bit younger than that, yet he talks like he was fairly old in 97, so yeah, i'm just not even sure because if i'm right that means he was about 10 or 11 then.

im 21

[snoopay700]

im 21
Ok, just the way you said that you don't know if people remembered it you sounded like you might be a lot older, and i just know that you were in school, didn't know if you were on your first time around or going back or what, but the way you talk on the boards has confused me on that subject for a while.

[questionful]

So if I send these to "Sean@smartpartswest" he should get them? In case he somehow misses the several other identical emails? ;)

[Hilltop Customs]

wait, so what is this thing everyone is talking about......I think they called it physics or something. Ahhh its just a bunch of bull anyhow.....I mean I saw the gun shoot farther with my own eyes, you believe me dont you?

No?

Are you serious why wouldnt you believe me, it really happened! Why would I lie to you? Dont believe all those other guys with their fancy physics mumbo jumbo, i mean physics is just a guidelines, its not like their are universal laws or anything.

[thejere]

? Dont believe all those other guys with their fancy physics mumbo jumbo, i mean physics is just a guidelines, its not like their are universal laws or anything.

Sarcasm? It never comes across well on the web

[cockerpunk]

humans have only been studying projectile motion for the last ... almost 300 years?

seems like that guy newton or whatever might have been onto something ...

[Enemy]

wait, so what is this thing everyone is talking about......I think they called it physics or something. Ahhh its just a bunch of bull anyhow.....I mean I saw the gun shoot farther with my own eyes, you believe me dont you?

No?

Are you serious why wouldnt you believe me, it really happened! Why would I lie to you? Dont believe all those other guys with their fancy physics mumbo jumbo, i mean physics is just a guidelines, its not like their are universal laws or anything.


Hahahahaha :rofl: so do you mean to tell me that if i fire a gun level to the ground and drop the bullet/ball they wont hit the ground at the exact same time??wow im in shock

[questionful]

Sarcasm? It never comes across well on the web
Oh I think it came across pretty well there. :rofl:

I read a biography of newton. That guy was a nut. He saw everything differently than everyone else. The book had an interesting quote, something like "before newton's time, no one felt gravity when they raised their arms." Back then, when you thought about why stuff falls, it was "just because". It seemed completely natural. I guess most people are fine with believing stuff "just because." I bet SP knows all about that. :tard:

[Arstron]

So I guess the apple really can fall far from the apple tree, if its a low preasure apple?

Perhaps smart parts needs a new slogan, "Smart Parts, Debunking Sir Isaac Newton one paintball at a time."

[senghing27]

Lol Physics.... Who needs that.

[nevtangle]

It's funny that Sean hasn't bothered to chime in on this. He stopped responding in the other thread too. He logged in today but no words of wisdom. I'm sure his words are better received on pbn than they are here.

[JesseB]

physics shmysics

getting shot with a shocker in 98 (before max flows had tournament locks and someone could have easily been cheating) from super far away and getting a boo boo is way more proof than bench testing.

[senghing27]

Cp, nice work man. I enjoyed your rant, and also, I'm glad you didn't fall down any stairs in the 3rd video while filming yourself.

Now get the Carter vid up

[Hilltop Customs]

Sarcasm? It never comes across well on the web

lol, I tried to lay it on thick and gooey too

[Hilltop Customs]

It's funny that Sean hasn't bothered to chime in on this. He stopped responding in the other thread too. He logged in today but no words of wisdom. I'm sure his words are better received on pbn than they are here.

well the way I see it, he has 3 options......admit he was wrong(doubt it), or claim the conditions of the test make it not valid(probably), or avoid it all together(just sad)

Give him time to try and think of a counter argument that cant be disproved easily.....

[cockerpunk]

i will let sean post his response on his own. we have been trading a couple of PMs on the nation.

[Ruler_Mark]

DUUDE you are a complete TOOL. YOU FORGOT THE MOST important component.

Zee 1337 cheat3r b045d.

Remember to solve FSDO(First Shot Drop Off) boards were made to increase the dwell on the first shot. Well over the chrono it went to 265fps. BUT then the first shot went and hit 26500000*10^10000^100000fps and broke the speed of light and look lyke a lazer beam or something and went soooooo fast you didnt see it hit the target till the 5th time around de erth.







Now that I have fun, GG Sean GTFO with your propaganda. I love how he words everything so sp has an out.

[maniacmechanic]

So I guess the apple really can fall far from the apple tree, if its a low preasure apple?

Perhaps smart parts needs a new slogan, "Smart Parts, Debunking Sir Isaac Newton one paintball at a time."

low pressure apple ; love it :rofl:

[bryceeden]

He responded in the thread on PBN


Thank you cockerpunk for proving many people wrong, along with myself with your video. I thank you for taking the time out to do it and there would not be very many people I would trust to prove me wrong.

I have based most of my personal thinking about range on guns all based on what I saw at IAO when the flatline came out. Apparently, I am guessing Graham was able to do it because he was so short and was able to angle it higher. And since it was IAO, I am sure I probably had a long island ice tea in hand as well. So, thank you cocker punk for enlightening the entire paintball community and myself. The debate on range shall forever be proven to this...

Every gun, no matter what kind, will have the same range at the same velocity. Excluding barrels that intentionally put backspin on the paintballs. And your videos will forever be used to prove this.

And I look forward to more videos from you as well busting the paintball myths and urban legends. This has also been a great discussion as well.

[Hexis]

He responded in the thread on PBN

I'm waiting for the universe to implode, a SP rep showed a clue publicly. Wait, maybe his account was hacked.

[Ruler_Mark]

you notice the immense sarcasm in that?

[snoopay700]

you notice the immense sarcasm in that?
He's also trying to perpetuate that he saw it despite others there that said that it would have been a huge deal, yet oddly no one was talking about this happening.

[Texas Trigger]

Pwned. So, so, OMG, what myth are you going to debunk next?

[questionful]

I didn't notice sarcasm. I think he is respectably admitting he was wrong. Still not as good as admitting he was lying, but good enough for me. I haven't been following the thread, but it sounds like victory to me. Yeah cockerpunk!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b43wLJx-I8Y&feature=user

[JesseB]

I like how he gave CP props on bustin tha myths.

Grats

(I think we need a Caturdayesque picture of CP usin phsics to bust mythz)

[Emert426]

I really don't know Sean, or even most of the details of the whole SP thing besides the basics.

BUT From following several of these threads, I believe I can safely seem than Sean is very good at PR. He seems to be able to talk himself out of a paper bag by often being vague and leaving many avenues he can take as to counter arguments.

Lot's of maybes in every explanation, a lot of circumstantial arguments, and a lot of side stepping.

I am saying nothing more than he seems to be incredibly talented at PR/Spin control. Hey, maybe I'm way off the mark here, and if I am I apologize.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4720/spindoctorln5.gif

[steve_81]

I like how when Sean was proven wrong, he comes back with "maybe i had to much to drink" and he really doesn't remember it clearly now.

[Toll]

because being portrayed as an alcoholic is much better than being portrayed as wrong.

[athomas]

There is always the trajectory of a lower held gun. Then there is also the FSDO effect so you could chrono lower on the first shot. And since shockers were notorious for this, it is very possible. Then there is also the All American cheat mode. Most of the early electronic guns had these cheat modes built into them for the factory teams. With the proper activation, they could up the fps by quite a bit.

I'm happy when any of these myths are debunked.

[B-Pow]

because being portrayed as an alcoholic is much better than being portrayed as wrong.

And that's how I got through college....

[ThePixelGuru]

Nice, glad someone took the time to do that. Of course, your test results don't apply to Sean's scenario, because Shockers only shoot farther if it's under a banner... :rofl:

I see that he did admit he was wrong, though. The next step would be for Smart Parts not to lie in the first place. We'll see how long that takes, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Beemer]

Then there is also the All American cheat mode. Most of the early electronic guns had these cheat modes built into them for the factory teams. With the proper activation, they could up the fps by quite a bit.

I'm happy when any of these myths are debunked.

No that cant be true. :eek: But then I think someone has them on tape cheating. Big difference in just cheating and cheating AND being UNSAFE. :argh:

[questionful]

Then there is also the All American cheat mode. Most of the early electronic guns had these cheat modes built into them for the factory teams. With the proper activation, they could up the fps by quite a bit.
I know nothing on the subject, but that sounds like very rumor-esque material.

[Beemer]

I know nothing on the subject, but that sounds like very rumor-esque material.

Well not really. SAD but true. :(

[questionful]

That's pathetic and despicable.

[Beemer]

That's pathetic and despicable.

And thats why the smarter folks left.

[Emert426]

thats what happens, mainstream big company competition adds too much of a shady undertone to paint ball for me.

Elites and their money, same story no matter how you spin it... The truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable.

[cockerpunk]

the next myth were taking on is backspin bolts.

alien here we come!

[senghing27]

the next myth were taking on is backspin bolts.

alien here we come!
Do the carter/phantom question... It's more important than backspin...

[cockerpunk]

Do the carter/phantom question... It's more important than backspin...

yup, we have 3 or 4 tests in the works right now.

blame bryce, hes the one going out of town ... otherwise these would probably be done by now.