What does the word "mint" mean to you in relation to a sale?

[punkncat]

I know this seems a very obvious question. I just wonder, if you are taking about an item that is several years old, do you think there is any allowance for saying "mint" and the expectation of that condition in spite of its age?

More in a minute...

[wetwrks]

Mint would mean to me (reguardless of age) basically NIB. I have dealt with collecting coins and comic books and I have a really high standard reguarding what mint means when refering to something.

[questionful]

To me it means: in the condition it was in when it was new.

[Madmarx]

I know this seems a very obvious question. I just wonder, if you are taking about an item that is several years old, do you think there is any allowance for saying "mint" and the expectation of that condition in spite of its age?

More in a minute...

As "obvious" as that may seem to you or I... there ARE people on this site and others that just don't seem to understand what that DOES mean. There are many other terms that can mean the same thing and they all seem to be used without hesitation.

My opinion... if it's something you are SELLING, be honest. ie if there are scratches thru the ano or even not thru then say so in your post. Don't say it's mint or excellent when you yourself would be upset to pay top dollar for an item only to receive it all scratched up.

If you are BUYING then ask a ton of questions and get detailed pics. If you don't then you will be sorry.

[punkncat]

Well I see that the few of us, and I am sure more replies will follow are all on the same page regarding this. I know of two sites that hold themselves to a standard a bit higher in regards to honesty in selling, and buying. This being one, and so far MCB being the other.
I have not dealt with all of you in a buyer seller relationship, but I know that at least one of you I have. I know that whenever and where ever possible within the scope of my knowledge and familiarity with a product I hold myself to a very high moral character about disclosure. Even to the point of damaging my ability to sell an item at times. I have worked very hard to maintain a good reputation here in my feedback and don't want to damage it with one deal that will follow me around from that point forward hurting my ability to sell items.

Apparently I am a bit nieve in that I have an expectation that others be so forthright about the condition of their sale items as well....

[SithSteve]

I have dealt with collecting coins and comic books and I have a really high standard reguarding what mint means when refering to something.

Especially if you're grading by CGC standards.

[PumpPlayer]

In the world of collecting, it also implies that the item was unused and/or uncirculated (as applicable to the item in question). In order for a comic book to be "mint," it cannot have any bent or creased pages, no fading on the cover, etc. It also can't have a postmark or shipping label (more common on magazines), price tag or anything else that was added by someone other than the factory or (in limited cases) an authorized dealer.

With manufactured goods like a paintball gun, I can forgive some flaws and still call the item "mint." To use an example I'm familiar with, CCI Phantoms often have a slight smudge in the anodizing on the left side of the frame behind the safety because of the way they sit in the anodizing racks. As this is an expected deviation due to manufacturing practices, I would not consider it a flaw and the item could still be legitimately called "mint." Although the collectibility and/or value of a flawless specimin may be greater, something with a common and expected flaw can still be "mint."

With age, something else comes into play and that it factory packaging methods. Not common storage methods but the manner in which the manufacturer suggested it be stored because of its packaging. Similar to a minor manufacturing defect, this is something that the mnufacturer did that can cause a flaw on the object. Placing a finished metal surface directly against cardboard, for instance, can cause "ribbing" in the finish as the resins in the cardboard slowly leech out over time. With an old paintball gun, this was common with painted brass being fairly unceremoniously tossed into cardboard boxes for delivery and then shoved into a warehouse for 20+ years. I would consider a NIB Sheridan that had some minor ribbing to still be "mint," even though it shows flaws since they are the result of the original packaging.

Lastly, some finishes and components can wear out or break down over time. Seals can crack if they get dry (as in, the gun's never even been oiled), lubricants can pool and stain, paint can dull, raw brass can oxidize, etc. Within low limits of such flaws, such items could still be called "mint," IMHO. One or two slightly cracked seals is a relatively minor thing on a 20+ year old gun that's never been out of the box.


Short of those minor and expected flaws, however, you shouldn't use the term mint.

[punkncat]

So anyway...the point of the thread that I keep getting diverted from.

I just purchased an Angel G7 Fly from a guy on the nation. I know, should have known who and where I was dealing with.....The guy has a load of really good feedback. He described the marker as one he was selling for a friend, that it was mint and in perfect working condition.
I got this thing in RECORD time, it was shipped Sat and was sitting on my porch today. It came packed well and everything that was described in the sale plus a few bonus but non critical items were in the box.

Provided with the sale were some good pics that seemed to cover everything. When discussing with him the condition through PM's he once again mentioned the perfect shape and working order.

Upon taking the marker out, the first thing that I notice is a very obvious scratch on one side, through the anno, and another nick on the other. There is a minor problem with the anno in a recess that is nothing to worry too much about. So much for mint.
Its not a matter of me being so worried the scratches. Things happen to markers and I plan on playing with it. No big deal. Would have been nice to know, but hey.....but on to what REALLY bothers me about the deal.
I get airline on it, get it ready to go, turn it on, and the damn LCD screen is all bugged up. You can tell the marker is on, and I was able to fuddle through some settings simply because I am familiar with these boards. Basically I defaulted it, and then worked from there with the booklet and the small amounts of screen I can read.
The marker fires fine so far as I can tell. I will not have the opportunity to actually shoot it over the chrono till later.

The latter part really does irritate me. I payed a bit above market on this marker and was of the expectation that it would be as specified. Not that overall its totally not worth it, and honestly considering that my plan was to eventually Virtue the thing anyway it will not turn out to be a huge issue in the long run in anything except the resale value of the stock board and battery combo.

I am going to contact the seller. I feel like guy should make right on this in some way. Not sure how, and honestly doubt that he will. Overall, its not a deal breaker anyway. Not like I want to send it back to him over it. Just pisses me off that he wasn't fully forthright from the getgo. And I hate that bad feedback trap.

:mad:

[wimag]

if he said mint it should be mint. You have his verbage that says it is.... go after him. Dont worry about the bad feedback trap.
I went through the exact same thing with FBM years ago and called him out on it.

[robnix]

I know this seems a very obvious question. I just wonder, if you are taking about an item that is several years old, do you think there is any allowance for saying "mint" and the expectation of that condition in spite of its age?

More in a minute...
In terms of paintball gear, mint to me means the exterior needs to be scratch free and the marker needs to be in perfect working condition.

[trevorjk]

usually a flavor, mostly associated with gum :p

but seriously, i hold mint as in basically a BNIB condition. but i have learned that nothing is mint untill i see hi-res pictures that show amazing detail of every inch of the gun. if i dont get those, i wont purchase a used gun.

[maniacmechanic]

if he said this ; When discussing with him the condition through PM's he once again mentioned the perfect shape and working order.
go after him PC & don't let him use the it was my friends gun , I didn't know card , seems to me he should pay for a new stock board , or whatever it takes to fix it
your lucky you know angel's , what if some other noob bought it & didn't

[punkncat]

I wrote the guy a rather lengthy reply. I am asking him to make right on the deal. We will see where it goes.

[BigEvil]

I have NEVER received one item Ive purchased via PBN arrive in the condition it was described.

[punkncat]

I have NEVER received one item Ive purchased via PBN arrive in the condition it was described.


Honestly this was only my second transaction there. I really try to avoid it when I can because of the same stupid stuff. In both transactions there have been problems....just not too many other places to find an Angel nowdays. Even AOG is rediculous, slow and high.

[Toll]

My favorite is the "I sent it in perfect working condition so when you get it an it's buggered up I assume you did it" clause.

[BigEvil]

Honestly this was only my second transaction there. I really try to avoid it when I can because of the same stupid stuff. In both transactions there have been problems....just not too many other places to find an Angel nowdays. Even AOG is rediculous, slow and high.

Whenever I purchase something of substance, like a marker or something high value, I insist on getting the persons phone number and speaking directly to him. If he is a minor, then I insist on speaking to his parents. Ive had a few deals fall through because of seller's lack of enthusiasm for that idea.

Funny you should mention Angels, I picked up all of mine on but one on PBN. The one being an LED I scored off of Ebay (That I wish I still had). Most recently an Angel GAT, which of course, shows up with a malfunctioning Virtue board.

[punkncat]

Whenever I purchase something of substance, like a marker or something high value, I insist on getting the persons phone number and speaking directly to him. If he is a minor, then I insist on speaking to his parents. Ive had a few deals fall through because of seller's lack of enthusiasm for that idea.

Funny you should mention Angels, I picked up all of mine on but one on PBN. The one being an LED I scored off of Ebay (That I wish I still had). Most recently an Angel GAT, which of course, shows up with a malfunctioning Virtue board.

I am actually scouring around for a board right now. Looks like it will either be a Virtue, which I have excellent luck with in my G7, or an Angry Tadao board. Both of them are too darn high, so I was looking at the possibility of just repairing the LCD and being done with it. I have enough tourney legal markers to make it through.

Yeah it is funny, I have asked about the "talk to the parents" thing as well and suddenly you hear crickets from the other end....

[Lohman446]

Mint to me refers to a grade higher than "like new in box" in that not only is it as good as it was new in box it is better than to be expected - someone mentioned the smudge in anno on phantoms. If I bought something mint I would expect such flaws (expected to be there on a NIB marker) to not be there.

[B-Pow]

I expect the product to give me fresh breath and make women like me more.

In all honesty I don't put any weight to when a seller offers something "mint" as that phrase gets thrown around a lot more than it should be.

[Steelrat]

I posted up an excal with the description stating "amazing" or "excellent". It was an older excal with a few small marks, and it was pointed out to me that even though I thought the condition was excellent given it's age, the description may have been misleading. I made right on the deal, but it was a lesson learned. My take on condition may differ from the buyers.

HOWEVER, there can not be any confusion about "mint." It should have been flawless. Have the seller fix the situation.

[sandfreestyle]

Mint = The way it came from the factory and never left the box.

[surfbum]

In terms of paintball gear, mint to me means the exterior needs to be scratch free and the marker needs to be in perfect working condition.

i feel the same way

in terms of the deal in question, you absolutely need to make this guy right his wrong. regardless if he is selling something for a friend, HE is selling it, and the condition of the marker is his responsibility as a seller.
if he claims it is mint, and it has scratched anno and a broken LCD screen, that is NOT mint by any stretch of the imagination. you must not be afraid to leave bad feedback, and you can even tell him you will happily edit the negative feedback when he has fixed the problem. that has gotten quite a few poor traders to suck it up and fix their bad transaction.

[punkncat]

Well after contacting him, his excuse was the I didn't know cause all I did was flip it on and play with it, and its my friends marker. His solution is to refund my money and shipping cost, which is admirable I suppose, but certainly not the solution I am looking for out of him.

Kind of hard to be mad when he has offered me a refund, but it sure would have been nice for it to have been as specified.

Guess I have some thinking to do.

[Sumthinwicked]

ask for a partial refund the cost of the board bat combo resale :rolleyes: then everyones happy

[paint magnet]

I would say mint on a gun still in production means NIB. On a gun that's a few years old or has been used, at least 95% of its original condition, meaning:

No scratches, save maybe wear on the inside of the ASA or possibly slight pump wear

No excessive wear on bolt, orings, breach, fittings, etc.

100% functional

If its value is as a collector's item, then all paperwork included

Everything clean and well-maintained (I can't recall how many guns were shipped to me with paint in the breach, barrel, etc. Even when I sell junker or parts guns I at least have the courtesy to run a squeegee through the thing)

Parts which wear out or have a reputation for easily breaking or falling off (like AGD Superbolt, WDP SENSI rod, WGP jewel logo, 12v. Revolution feedneck) are still intact

Honestly, if someone has actually played with the marker more than a few time, chances are I don't consider it mint. My guns are always well-maintained to ensure functionality, but I simply cannot afford to have a marker I am afraid to play with because I don't want it scratched. My Mag gets banged into bunkers (the solid kind) all the time, but a little 1500 grit sand paper will take the scratches right out.

I would say for general reference:

NIB means 100%, with box and paperwork. Possibly aired up or had paint through it but only from the factory or off a field, and less than 100 shots.

Perfect/Mint means 95%+

Excellent is 90%+

Above Average is 85%, meaning everything still works but the finish isn't so great.

Fair is 75%, might need minor parts like ball detent or trigger spring but it still works.

Poor is 50%, will require a rebuild kit, new hard parts, finish is marred, etc.

Anything below that is really only good for parts. The gun has excessive wear, broken parts, scratched finish, and will require more money to fix than it's worth.

Guns can increase in condition if they're reano'd, have new parts, seals, etc. but this detracts from the value of a collector's item.

[Hilltop Customs]

ask for a partial refund the cost of the board bat combo resale :rolleyes: then everyones happy

thats what I would want. As for his excuse that its not his marker.....it doesnt matter, he(as the seller) descibed what it was to you. If he didnt know it wasnt mint, he shouldnt have said it was.....the scratches are enough to make it no longer mint, the broken LCD puts it over the top. Funny thing is he even said he turned it on :tard: broken LCD are highly noticable AFTER YOU TURN IT ON.

Its up to you but Id want enough money back to pay for a new LCD or a new board.

[Steelrat]

HOWEVER, I wouldn't force the issue too much. If he's willing to give you a refund and pay for the return shipping, but doesn't want to pay to have it fixed, I wouldn't argue with him. Just take the money and go find another G7.

[punkncat]

Well, I am just going to chalk it up to one more sub par dealing on the Nation.
I should have known better. And in the future, please, if I even post anything about THINKING of looking at something there someone kick me in the coin purse.

As I said above, the guy did give me the option to return the whole marker, but as I have no incination to go looking again with the definate possiblity of coming out worse than this, I am just going to eat the loss and call it a lesson learned.

I have purchased twice there in recent months and BOTH markers were not what they were presented to be. Both sellers had exceptional feedback. I guess if you buy there just beware and be sure to be very thorough and ask lots of detailed questions.

Overall I think this deal will end up costing me about $100 in reduced value or overpayment price of the marker in question coupled with replacement part cost.

[Chronobreak]

use a third party, and or a pay service such as paypal so you can get your $ back.

ask for up to date pics, proof that its workign etc etc

im not gonna be one of those people that say buyer beware or something like that but you have to be carefull buying anyhting anywhere, not just the nation.

the simple fact that there are 5x or more markers posted daily than even ebay or perhaps all other paintball sites combines increases the cahnce that there is going to be a problem.

i just read your post on the nation you deleted and well, im not sure what to say other than buy from a reputable person, but if you think using ebay, mcb or AO is a guaranteed your not gonnaget hosed than your very naive

[phizz]

No matter how old the marker is in my opinion you can use the word mint. But to me minto condition means perfect, no marks, smooth runer, no scratches in breech etc.

[Chronobreak]

if you look at cars mint basicly means never driven, showroom quality etc

alot of people on the nation and elsewhere have found out there are alot of suckers out there(not just you punkn) and they can say LNIB, BNIB, MINT, Perfect etc and for some reason people take them for their word.

buying used is always a gamble, but you gotta do your best to check that persons feedback, get pics,

as much as i hate that guy from techpb hes got a very nice how to sell/buy guns online thats very helpfull, though the language and maturity is poor for an older guy

[LK-13]

rare, mint, collectible, and many other buzz words should just flow in one ear and out the other.
everyone thinks their stuff is worth more than everyone else's stuff because
"i know it's special, and one of a kind..."

ya...
right...

rare, why? because most are filling up garbage dumps?

mint? breath mint? after dinner mint?

collectible? C'mon, someone somewhere collects just about everything.

there are a few one offs out there, but not that many.

buyer has to beware.

I've been ripped off doing forum business, I've gotten the best possible deal doing forum business.

buyer beware and learn as much as you can about your seller.

if you get taken,
put out the word on as many forums as you can, including MCB.
hurt your rep on MCB, you might as well take up Golf,
cause Paintball just might be dead to you.

[Steelrat]

I don't get it. You are unhappy with your purchase, and the guy has offered a full refund? If you're not willing to take the offered refund, that's on you. You can't continue to be upset about it after the guy offered to make it right, just because you think you will end up getting even more screwed when you try to buy another G7. Yes, he described it poorly, but made up for it by offering to do the right thing. So, in the end, I guess his good feedback is justified.

[punkncat]

I don't get it. You are unhappy with your purchase, and the guy has offered a full refund? If you're not willing to take the offered refund, that's on you. You can't continue to be upset about it after the guy offered to make it right, just because you think you will end up getting even more screwed when you try to buy another G7. Yes, he described it poorly, but made up for it by offering to do the right thing. So, in the end, I guess his good feedback is justified.

I had already stated that I appreciated his good will in the situation, or at least I think I did in this thread???? Anyway, the point of the matter is that I do not wish to go back through the trouble of shipping the marker back, waiting for refund to clear, finding another marker and going through the whole ordeal again.
It would have been nice BOTH times lately that I have purchased there for the marker to be as stated. Since they haven't I will refrain from purchasing there anymore.

Chrono- I have been a member here since, what? 03? Care to count the number of bad deals I have had here in that amount of time?

It may be nieve to assume nothing bad could happen here, and you would be right in thinking so, but I tell ya. I deal with people here who have good feedback and have found that by and large WE tend to be honest about what we are selling. In even the short time I have dealt with MCB I have found that it is all but expected to be forthright there.
I personally don't buy from Ebay unless I have to. Same type of buttockery goes on there as the nation.

[Steelrat]

I agree with that. I think I came accross too harshly in my post. I just hate to have you end up unhappy with a purchase. PBN IS a crapshoot, but it's also a place to find great deals. Believe it or not, I actually have WORSE luck with high-feedback traders, as they seem to conduct a lot of business with people who might not be as, well, anal about what they are getting.