Mechanical help on my 66 mustang 289

[paintman1234]

First off, it is a 1966 Ford Mustang Convertible GT, with a 289 V8. it is automatic and everything is stock under the hood. It has been sitting for awhile and will start fairly consistently but the idle is higher then it probably should be. It stalls sometimes when put in gear and misfires occasionally on the road. Today I just put a new distributor cap rotor and plugs in it. The plugs were autolite platinum tipped. There was probably 2 gallons of old gas in the tank and i added 3 gallons of premium and a little lead additive about 5 miles ago.

Now the questions:
1. The plugs came gapped at around .045, but the man at autozone recomemmnded a .035 gap. Will that make a difference and if it will how do i reduce the gap?

2. Do I need to add a lead additive to the gas to make the old engine run right?

3. Would the firing order or a bad connection from the plug wires to the cap cause the problems?


Its been awhile since my last automags post but thought this would be the perfect place to get it answered. Im looking at you Rob.

[ManInBlack]

1. The plugs came gapped at around .045, but the man at autozone recomemmnded a .035 gap. Will that make a difference and if it will how do i reduce the gap?

You can get a plug gap measure thing for just a couple of bucks and just kinda tap them to the right size? Do them one at a time so you don't get your wire mixed up.

2. Do I need to add a lead additive to the gas to make the old engine run right?

Couldn't hurt to try. My wife's uncle has a '71 vette that he adds lead to once in a while. Seems to run fine.

3. Would the firing order or a bad connection from the plug wires to the cap cause the problems?

If the firing order were out it would be really obvious. Bad plug wires can cause this sort of problem. I had a car run fine most of the time but buck a lot when wet, bad plugs and wires.

[Looper]

The larger the gap the bigger the coil that is needed to jump the gap. If you have the original coil and ignition system in that stang you'll need a smaller gap.

Leaded gas was need for valve seats but you be the judge http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/seats.htm

You've got a lot of things working against you... First I would get rid of the old gas and change your fuel filter. Then you want to have your points gap, in the distributor, checked stock 289 with 2bl is .034 or just change the points out for a "Pentronix" under the cap ignition. I would also find somebody with a timing light to check the timing.

There will be an idle screw on the carb to set the idle but you may want to check your auto choke and make sure that is working properly. Does it always idle high or only when it's cold?

Another good thing to pick up, if you really want to do this yourself, is the shop manual for your year Mustang. http://www.amazon.com/Mustang-Falcon-Comet-Fairlane-Manual/dp/B000SOINZM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=miscellaneous&qid=1214276715&sr=8-2

Try these guys... they will know everything about Mustangs...
http://lists.twistedpair.ca/mailman/listinfo.cgi/classic-mustangs

Oh, and my other hobby
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/gallery/data/815/medium/65FM-Cowl-016.jpg

Good luck
:cheers:

[paintman1234]

thankas and keep the ideas coming, i also installed a fuel filer today so that should be good.

anybody know of a digram that will show the wires to and from the distributor cap and the cylinders?

[skife]

thankas and keep the ideas coming, i also installed a fuel filer today so that should be good.

anybody know of a digram that will show the wires to and from the distributor cap and the cylinders?


where in michigan are you? i might be able to help.


how long has it been sitting?

it might be time for a carburetor rebuild.
as others have said, adjust the points, change ALL the fluids in the car and all the filters.

a friend of mine had a '67 289 with an edelbrock carb and aluminum intake and the thing ripped.

[mustangii]

I agree with the others. One added thing though. If all else fails there is a pickup sock in the tank that can become pluged over time.

edm

[Looper]

Windsor (289, 302, 5.0, 5.0HO, 351) Firing Orders

289 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
302 (Pre-82) 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
5.0 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
5.0 HO 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
5.0 Truck 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
351 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

Cylinder numbering

The table below covers the positions and numbering for all cylinders on a windsor motor. Generally, it can be summarised as follows: When looking into the engine bay the number one cylinder should be on your left hand side (left bank) at the front of the engine. The number eight cylinder is on the rear right (right bank) up against the firewall.
Firewall
4 8
3 7
2 6
1 5
Front bumper

[Big'n slo]

I agree with Looper, get the pentronix


And now a shameless pic parade

My 66

http://home.comcast.net/~jeffreykier/pics/Mustang/stanga.jpg


http://home.comcast.net/~jeffreykier/pics/Mustang/stangb.jpg


http://home.comcast.net/~jeffreykier/pics/Mustang/stangc.jpg


http://home.comcast.net/~jeffreykier/pics/Mustang/stangd.jpg

[Lohman446]

I would lean towards the carb being gummed up with old fuel and simply needing a good cleaning. Assuming it runs and only misses sometimes its not crossed plug wires (which would cause a consistant miss).

[Coralis]

A bad set of plug wires can cause that problem as well

[Lohman446]

Wait a minute.. you put in platinum tipped plugs from Autozone?

I have seen more problems caused by Bosch platinum plugs than any other plug type. Go buy normal plugs for it, preferabbly Autolite (no, its not name preference, put Autolites in Ford, Delcos in GM, Champion in Chrysler, and NGK in everything else. The only thing to use Bosch for is VW).

[kruger]

Also, just for your reference, but the lead was used to lube up the valves in the heads. It really depends on how long the car was sitting, but the cure is to replace the valve guides in the head and you can burn unleaded gas. If it has been driven in the last five years or so, the that has already been done. And, I would recommend rebuilding the carburetor. Its not that hard to do. Just clean everything and replace the parts that come in the kit. Is this the spread bore carb? If so, you will love it. Mileage, and kick when you need it.

[Lohman446]

The funny thing about changing valve guides, I have never ever heard it referenced except online. It came up in conversation with one customer who read it on line, I asked eight different technicians from various shops about it, as well as two old car collectors, and they had never done it.

[mustangii]

Okay tetraethyl lead was in gas to regulate the octane of the fuel, side benifit was it lubed the valve seats. The valves rotate on the seats when the vehicle is driven to keep the carban diposits clean off. later model vehiles either have induction hardened seats in cast iron heads or steel insert seats in aluminum heads. The prblem that arose after lead was phased out was exhaust valve recestion, the seat would wear away and the valve would sink into the head. how fast this happens depends on what grade of cast iron the heafds are made of. mid 50s to mid 60s cast iron had a higher nickel content mkeing the iron harder, the only fix is new later model heads, new hp aftermaket heads or the cheapest route. Haveing hardend seats install in your heads.
edm

[snoopay700]

Oh, and my other hobby
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/gallery/data/815/medium/65FM-Cowl-016.jpg

Good luck
:cheers:
Your other hobby is car porn? I mean that looks like a pretty naked car to me [/bad joke]

[CoolHand]

Okay tetraethyl lead was in gas to regulate the octane of the fuel, side benifit was it lubed the valve seats. The valves rotate on the seats when the vehicle is driven to keep the carban diposits clean off. later model vehiles either have induction hardened seats in cast iron heads or steel insert seats in aluminum heads. The prblem that arose after lead was phased out was exhaust valve recestion, the seat would wear away and the valve would sink into the head. how fast this happens depends on what grade of cast iron the heafds are made of. mid 50s to mid 60s cast iron had a higher nickel content mkeing the iron harder, the only fix is new later model heads, new hp aftermaket heads or the cheapest route. Haveing hardend seats install in your heads.
edm


If it was a high HP application, I would agree that hardened seats would be a good idea, but for pretty much any cruiser or resto, the stock stuff will run for years and years.

I had a '65 Mustang 289/auto that I drove daily for about four years. It did not have hardened seats and it never missed a beat in the time I owned it.

My old man has a '69 Camaro SS 396/4spd 425HP. That car gets a bottle of STP lead additive with every tank of fuel. It's a higher output motor, AND it's worth a lot more money.

They made a zillion of those Mustangs with 289's, run it 'till she squeals and then rebuild it. Rinse, repeat.

(That said, when you rebuild it, no reason not to pop for new hard valve seats.)


The funny thing about changing valve guides, I have never ever heard it referenced except online. It came up in conversation with one customer who read it on line, I asked eight different technicians from various shops about it, as well as two old car collectors, and they had never done it.

Agreed. I don't bother with valve guides until she starts to smoke pretty regular when you dump the throttle.

Good bronze guides with good seals in a motor that sees a new air filter every so often should last through the first lifetime easily (meaning you pull them when you rebuild the motor, and not before). That said, once you're into a rebuild, there's no sense in not replacing them while you've got it down.

That's my philosophy about motors. Run 'em 'till they beg for mercy and then do an honest to god rebuild.

Bore, hone, and deck the block, grind the crank and recondition the rods, deck and replace the guides and seals in the heads, recut/replace the valve seats, replace the valves, springs, and retainers, new rockers and pushrods if they're more than about 25 yrs old, convert the heads to screw-in studs if they aren't already, new pistons and rings, new bearings all around, new cam and lifters, new oil pump, new timing set, new distributor gear, all new gaskets and seals, and replace all the fasteners while you're at it. You can spend a few hundred more dollars up front, and save yourself months/years of grief in the long run.

[paintman1234]

alright boys, thanks for the advise. put some new plug wires on it, got it running decent, still idling pretty high but running. Then my starter dies... Then 10mins later my mom shows up with the plate, just in time!! shoot me in the face. I couldn't get the starter out without a hoist so took it to a friend at the cab stand. He replaced the starter checked everything out that I had done and found out I had put the cap on backwards. That smoothed it out a bit, put some fresh gas in it but to drive it you have to feather the gas constantly. He is going to pop a new carb in there for $120.

I was wondering if It would be worth the extra cash to get a 4brl. I would like to get some more performance out of the car but im not sure what im going to get for my money with say a 4brl edelbrock as opposed to the stock, standard 2brl. might it be worth it to go in a different direction with performance parts instead of upgrading the cam?

I drove it back to storage today as the cab stand man cant get to it until saturday, and was loving all 2 mins of my drive. I cranked the idle before I left in case i got stopped at a light so she cruised along at 20 mph without my foot on the gas... The man following me said black smoke came out the back when I floored it at the light so there must still be some bad gas in there even though we filled it up with premium and have run 1/4 tank down already.

[skife]

If your going to upgrade to a 4bbl carb you're going to need a 4bbl intake too.

[Lohman446]

What you have is one of the premier cruising cars. Great car, looks great, and is reasonable on the road.

To the 4 barrel. If you want performance sell the car and buy something else because you are going to dump a ton of $$$ into it getting "reasonable" performance, especially compared to a lot of the cars today with some pretty good performance figures that are not even considered top performance cars.

[CoolHand]

Over carb'ing a motor will make it run just as bad or worse than one with too little carb.

It'll be blubbery and useless in the lower end of the RPM band (IE, where you actually need the throttle response).

A 289 2 bbl is a quite respectable power plant, especially by today's standards.

It's not a racer by any means, but with a front end geometry like that of the Mustang, believe me, that's a good thing. ;)

[skife]

Over carb'ing a motor will make it run just as bad or worse than one with too little carb.

It'll be blubbery and useless in the lower end of the RPM band (IE, where you actually need the throttle response).

A 289 2 bbl is a quite respectable power plant, especially by today's standards.

It's not a racer by any means, but with a front end geometry like that of the Mustang, believe me, that's a good thing. ;)

http://www.holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/Selecting%20A%20Carburetor.pdf



I still think that an aluminium intake and a 550-600cfm carb will really do alot for that car.

[CoolHand]

http://www.holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/Selecting%20A%20Carburetor.pdf



I still think that an aluminium intake and a 550-600cfm carb will really do alot for that car.

Then you didn't read the very PDF you just posted.

Even at 100% volumetric efficiency, a 300 CID motor will not pump 600 CFM until it's running at near 7,000 RPM.

That stock 289 motor will be lucky if it makes it North of 4500 RPM.

At a volumetric efficiency of 80% that motor needs 320 CFM of air.

That's a hella small 4 bbl (like a NASCAR Modified Spec carb, which wouldn't be a bad choice if you were so inclined, but I digress), or a reasonably sized 2 bbl.

The heads are generally the limiting factor in how a motor breathes, assuming you don't have a ridiculously restrictive intake circuit (which most engines don't), followed by the profile of the cam.

You can drop whatever intake and carb on that stock motor you like, but the changes in output will be very small to negligible because the geometry of the heads and the lift profile of the cam are the limiting factors. AND, if you did manage to magically get it to really make some power, all you'd succeed in doing is breaking the crank.

A true performance engine is built from the ground up. You can't simply take a stock piece, drop an intake on it, and suddenly have a "rocket sled on rails".

If you want to work on the induction system, that's fine, but you gotta work on the whole induction system. The heads, cam, intake, and carb all have to work together or you'll just spend a lot of money and not accomplish anything. Once you've gone that far, the exhaust will need work or IT wil be the limiting factor. And honestly, if you're going to bump the output up, you then need to look at the crank, the rods, the pistons, and the fasteners to make sure they're all up to snuff, or you'll be hearing expensive grinding noises post haste.

Hot rods are bottomless pits into which money falls, never to be seen again.

There is no point in throwing money at the engine in the form of useless add-ons, if you're not going to spend the coin to do it right.

Just MHO, but I've been doing this for a while, so it's not uneducated or inexperienced.

Trust me, X-Ball is cheap by comparison.