XMOD Use Agreement (no legal garbage)

[LorneCash]

Here's what I ask:

Have a gun and want to load XMOD
You can buy a programmer from me($132 Includes shipping to 48 States)
You can send your gun to me and I'll flash it ($50 you pay shipping both ways)


Buying/Acquiring A Gun with XMOD already loaded
If you're buying a gun that has XMOD on it it should come with a programmer or you should make me a $50 donation. (Paypal: pniedfeldt@gmail.com) Just because someone else is trying to screw me You can still do the right thing.
If you buy more than one gun with XMOD on it you only need to make one donation of $50. I am selling it per person not per gun.


Bought a programmer and Selling Your Gun - You must either...
Include the programmer with it and remove XMOD from all other guns you own, if you sell the gun with XMOD on it.
Remove XMOD from the gun, if you want to sell the gun and keep the programmer. (I will provide you with an AGD 3.2 flash via email if you don't have one saved)



Programmer Owners
You can flash all the guns you own. I am selling it per person not per gun.
If you buy more than one gun that comes with a programmer you are free to sell the second programmer for a profit
You are not allowed to sell the programmer and keep XMOD on any gun you own.
When you sell the programmer you are completely giving up your rights to use XMOD


Paid for Flash
You are not expected to remove the flash from your gun when you sell it as you have no way of doing so
Any future flashes for YOU are free
If you choose to sell your gun either you add $50 to the price and send me that on the sale of the gun or inform then next person they they are to pay for that Right to own that flash
the exception would be if that was the only gun you owned then your rights to the free flash would be transferred to the new owner providing you did pay for them in the first place


To be honest I wouldn't care if someone else flashes your gun and you just paypal me the $50 to save yourself shipping. The problem is that I have never recieved $50 from a single person.


I may add to this list if questions are asked or I feel that I have forgotten something.

[wetwrks]

Removed at the request of LorneCash.

Please see post in my own thread here:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2539273#post2539273

[Beemer]

Here's what I ask:

I may add to this list if questions are asked or I feel that I have forgotten something.

Ya I see that coming.

But, but, but I can send my mag to Ruler_Mark at ModMyMag and he will do it for free. :wow: Looks like you been used and that is sad. :(


All flashes I do are free of charge, I am not advertising XMOD as the software nor saying I can or can't do it. If you ask i'd do it for free just please give me $ for return shipping and gas $ to the PO.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2479772&postcount=10

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=226263

[Oregon_pb_]

this should be moved into the Dealers forum.


Plus I very much appreciate everything you've done with the code, but this sounds a wee bit greedy.


Its like me installing RMOD on my AKA with the cable I bought, then selling the gun. The next guy I sell the gun to would then be asked to donate $X to the creator of the RMOD or remove the program.

I personally won't be removing my XMOD when i sell my gun, for one its more work that unless you pay for my time lets say about $30 an hr, why would I?







I may add to the absurdity of this if I feel I have forgotten anything or questions are asked

[punkncat]

Once you started selling the programmer you opened the door for this type of thing to happen. It is unrealistic to think that all users of your software would be forthright, honest, and actually pay for credit where it is due. Especially in an age where software/music/movie piracy is practically openly accepted.
It would have been better to protect this through either having all markers sent to you, or to set up a trusted network of individuals that would do the work with.

At this point, its a bit too little too late. Given that the only way to enforce this is either through the honor system or the legal system....

[JesseB]

What? Isn't that some kind of agreement that should be signed before someone purchases the programmer so it's legally binding?

If I buy a used gun with xmod on it you shouldn't be in the loop. someone paid you for the programmer and used it for it's intended purpose you can't make rules midstream. That's like saying that if you sell a gun with a Dye barrel on it you should send dye $110 since a new person is using the barrel.

You can't track these things once they leave your sight, you can't charge someone money for something you don't own (once you sell something it's not yours anymore) unless you have a legally binding contract when you initially sold the programmer I don't see where you have a leg to stand on here.

[Geronimo7]

We should all be careful here, it could be possible for x-mod to go away for all of us.

But wouldn't it be just as easy to add 50 bucks to the price of the gun your selling and just forward that along to Lorne?

[Chronobreak]

i think any amount of $ he is aprreciateive but to see someone else offering it for free while using the software he took the time(and probly a good amount of it) to produce is pretty rude to say the least.

ive done my best to protect lornes rights on pbn, perhaps the mods could do the same here :cool:

[LorneCash]

I personally won't be removing my XMOD when i sell my gun, for one its more work that unless you pay for my time lets say about $30 an hr, why would I?



...this sounds a wee bit greedy.

I'm not forcing you to remove it from your gun when you sell it, unless you own more than one. All you have to do is sell the programmer with it then.

Am I being greedy by asking every person who uses my software to pay me for it?
I think I'm being pretty generous by saying you can freely load it on all the guns you own... There's not too many software vendors that say that. The idea is simply that you don't "own" a gun for 10min and then "sell" it back to the person you bought it from.

[LorneCash]

At this point, its a bit too little too late. Given that the only way to enforce this is either through the honor system or the legal system....

I made the choice a long time ago to let people do an "honor system"... I'm not going to send the feds after anyone. I like to think that the people on AO at least are good people that will respect the hundreds of hours I put into this project.

[LorneCash]

If I buy a used gun with xmod on it you shouldn't be in the loop. someone paid you for the programmer and used it for it's intended purpose...


That's like saying that if you sell a gun with a Dye barrel on it you should send dye $110 since a new person is using the barrel.

The difference between Software or any digital media is that you can copy it. You can't copy your Dye barrel.

With that logic why dont' I sell it to one person and just have them make coppies for the entire world so I would never get another cent?

I'm not trying to be a jerk or make things difficult I just want to be paid for the work I've done. If you choose to sell the thing you bought from me I simply expect that you don't also keep if for yourself. You can sell it without including me but then you have to sell ALL of it. (sell the programmer and remove it from all guns you still own)

[mpsd]

I am selling it per person not per gun.

Or, as we say in Microsoft licensing, you are selling it on a "per user" basis and not "per seat" LOL

Now, as I was the happy and proud third Beta tester for XMOD (since version 1.5), I gotta say that this guy deserves every penny he is asking for, as I know how long he worked over it and how this work made me happy, provinding me with a way to use my e-Mag on a competitive basis against other high end markers.

Lornecash is the man and his software rules!!! :headbang:

:cheers:

[Phaelynar]

And if you sold the programmers without any of this "agreement" actually agreed upon, no one has to listen to it.

If microsoft sold me software and gave me no rules or regulations about it, then tried to throw down the hammer on me when I handed it out free to everyone etc and didn't pay them royalties, I'd politely tell them to eat it, as they can't force you to sign their new policy after they screwed up the first time around.

I honestly wouldn't expect you to receive money from people or see people following these rules. This agreement has zero legal binding over anyone, as no ones signed it, or agreed to it verbally. You're also basing this assumption on that everyone who still has a programmer still reads AO. What if for some reason some random guy has one and doesn't, but just freely distributes on his own accord? If you actually want this enforced, track down every single person with a programmer and beg them to sign it or enter into a verbal contract with you about the distribution of the software (as zero was mentioned during time of purchase).

No offense, but this seems like an incredibly desperate attempt at weeding money out of the general public during a time where the economy is crappy enough as it is. I understand that you want to be paid for what you did, but technically you were paid. You chose to sell the programmers to people on a "honor system" when in a time of mass piracy of software (which in this case it technically isn't as there was no legal notification/ramification for distributing your software upon purchase) the majority of people just aren't honest.

Maybe next time in the future you should be more vigilant to create a user end license agreement before selling the product. Not significantly after.

[bjyourk]

It can really never be resolved...Lornecash needs to understand that some may abide by his "agreement" and some will not. It's that simple. On the other side, he's just asking to respect his work and IF you feel some moral responsibility(I would not and don't), give him his due cash. Both sides need to take it for what is...if you don't want to "donate" then don't! Let it go. :cheers:

[mpsd]

^Yep, that's it. That's a moral question and not something that can be enforced.

[Ruler_Mark]

Ya I see that coming.

But, but, but I can send my mag to Ruler_Mark at ModMyMag and he will do it for free. :wow: Looks like you been used and that is sad. :(



http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2479772&postcount=10

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=226263


Yeap I do not do that anymore. I do agd software flashes for free, talking to lorne on a resolution for xmod flashes.


Edit: as to the license, He can alter/edit it at anytime.

[VVulfe]

Hi all, new AO'er here. I've been following this discussion for a bit, and find it rather relevant to myself as I'm a compsci student. I'm not posting to attack anyone, and it's certainly not my intent to flame, troll, or otherwise pick fights.

That said, I hope to offer a little insight here.

In the software world, there's a concept known as "open source." In a paragraph or less, the gist of open source is that the computer world benefits when a program is sold/given/traded along with its source code, and that the end-user is (generally) encouraged to trade and modify the software - so long as they continue to provide the source code. It's a powerful, and beneifical tool, of which I'm a proponent.

By that same token, an open source solution isn't always the appropriate one.

As has been mentioned, one of the things that makes it tricky in this modern day and age to recognize the value of coding is the fact that when it's given or taken, it's more often that not duplicated. If someone, let's call him Joe, designs and makes a paintball gun and sells it to, say Steve, and then Steve resells that gun - there's still only one gun on the market, for which Joe's time and effort was compensated at the first point of sale.

With code, however, it's duplicated. As a result, Joe ends up in a position where while he's spent the time and effort to write software - and has a market to sell it to - unless the first level of buyers remove it from their hardware if they're to resell it, suddenly the market finds itself with more products than Joe sold, and money is moving around without any compensation going to the fellow who spent sleepless nights staring at a console.

Lorne has an interesting setup here - he's not selling the code, he's selling the hardware required to install the code. In essence, he's providing what's often referred to as a "site license" - you, the buyer, are entitled to flashing all the hardware you have on site - or later acquire. However, because this right is granted to you - not the gun - Lorne's asking that something happen should that gun leave your possession.

By removing XMOD from any guns you're keeping, and selling the programmer - you've essentially sold your site license and replicated the situation where Joe sells Steve a marker. You haven't increased the number of goods on the market, and you've compensated - in this case, Lorne - for the time and effort required to create a single site license.

The other situations that Lorne's outlined seem to be an attempt to keep this principle alive.

Yes, perhaps it's a bit late in the game to do so, but by that same token I would hope that we as a community - the larger paintball, and smaller AGD owner community - can recognize the value that Lorne's provided through his efforts. The cost of his license is less than a lot of us spend on paint over the weekend, and I like to think that we're willing to band together to support a guy who's done a good thing for e-Mag owners.

But let's look at it pragmatically as well - it's unfair, I think, to expect someone to support, troubleshoot and update software without compensation. It's about recognizing effort, and encouraging it. We, as owners, benefit from ensuring that Lorne's not left hanging in the breeze for his work. If he's able to remain solvent, he'll be around for a lot longer and able to keep our gun-code in good shape.

Just my $.02 :)

[bjyourk]

Well said, but again, it is a dead issue. He's made his request of a "donation"...thats all that can be done. It's out there, people know about it(or will in short order), and will do what they feel they need to. We can't chastise people for their decision.

Those of you who feel so strongly about it, give some money, and those that don't...well, I certainly am not going to fret and dwell on it.

Again, that was a great post VVulf, ver informative, but lets keep it in its simplest form and not all this license agreement B.S.

LorneCash has produced a great product and lets just continue to support it and him HOWEVER you see fit.


Note: yes, I know he did not JUST ask for money, but my guess would be that is most peoples hangup.(been wrong once before, though)

[JesseB]

makes sense now...

but I don't understand why you made it so readily available and copyable in the first place.

Good luck hope it works out in your favor

[Hexis]

So what is the expectation of someone who got their emag flashed by Lornecash? In both the case that I perpetually keep my emag, or sell it?

[LorneCash]

you guys both missed the first line...
"Here's what I ASK"

you're right if you want to steal from me I can't stop you nor will I try. I am simply asking that the honest people in this world follow my guidelines. I am not asking anyone to sign or verbally agree to anything as long as we're being honest do you think that would really have stopped you from doing anything anyways?

[bjyourk]

My point...pretty much. Except I would be careful with any accusatory statements or that include the word "steal". Your are more apt to win over the public with a simple plea. You can THINK all you want how this situation is but if you are asking for compliance, that is the WRONG way to go about it. Make yourself out to be the victim, not the [Edit]!


Edit...WARNING, circumvent the filter or flame again and you will be banned.

[Beemer]

you guys both missed the first line...
"Here's what I ASK"

you're right if you want to steal from me I can't stop you nor will I try. I am simply asking that the honest people in this world follow my guidelines. I am not asking anyone to sign or verbally agree to anything as long as we're being honest do you think that would really have stopped you from doing anything anyways?



I expect people to own a programmer... if you own a programmer it's not a problem to flash 3.2 back on. It takes longer to get the screws out than to flash the software. I dont' hate people for trying to get a deal like you did but It would be nice if there were some donations people who got the software without buying a programmer... but you're probably not going to be sending me any money so I'll tell you what I still have 20-30ish programmers here if I sell all of them I will post the fully commented source code on AO.


http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232298

There ya go.

Way to go AO. You are the first to cry and whine when things dont go your way with a dealer
and then you turn around and stick it to a guy that spent HIS OWN time and cash to give you what you want. :(

[LorneCash]

So what is the expectation of someone who got their emag flashed by Lornecash? In both the case that I perpetually keep my emag, or sell it?


Updated to include that possibility check the agreement again

[teufelhunden]

So, if I had a programmer and sold it, you would "require" what?

Assume that any guns I had were flashed to non-Xmod software.

[BigEvil]

Way to go AO. You are the first to cry and whine when things dont go your way with a dealer
and then you turn around and stick it to a guy that spent HIS OWN time and cash to give you what you want. :(

^
What he said.


Lornecash was the ONLY one to step up to the plate and deliver any kind of software upgrade for the E/X Mag. His own time, his own money. He certainly will not be getting rich off of this endeavor. If anything this will just be an example to anyone else who is considering producing AGD upgrades.

If it wasnt for the Xmod, the Emag would be dead and buried.

[mpsd]

Yep! And thanks to Lorne, here is my e-Mag, training for the 2006 Brazilian National Paintball Cup:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x299/mpsd18/paintballeando.jpg

And I can say that this gun stil has the best trigger feel of all my guns as of today.

[behemoth]

How long has Xmod been out, and this is just coming about?

Honestly man, you boned yourself by selling programmers.

Shouldve just done a solid 50 dollar flash fee, and done it all yourself.

[B-Pow]

Am I being greedy by asking every person who uses my software to pay me for it?


Now I don't own an e-mag (and probably never will because they are still worth a good piece of coin and my marker needs are met already) so you can call me a unaffected third party.

In the present climate there are several solutions to any software problem that are free to the end user, linux and most of it's builds (fedora, ubuntu, slackware, etc.), spyware killers (spybot, adaware, etc.), media players (windows media player, quicktime, winamp, etc.) the list goes on and on...and the software there is completely free (some may contain versions you can pay for...that may or may not include more features).

Even when a company demands to get paid for their software...it rarely happens. When I built my current desktop my friends were shocked I actually bought a copy of windows instead of just pirateing it. Valve's steam project (in the first few years of it's launch) was ripe for piracy, one cd key could have been logged on from infinate systems...it was a complete possiblity to have millions of players playing counter strike from one CD key...this was fixed some time in 2004, I know because I was no longer able to play counter strike on my friend's key. There is a silly number of illegal copys of windows running out there, the same can be said for visual studio, or any other program pack that costs a significant ammount of money.

Hell several copies of word that I own and my copy of visual studio are technally illegal, they have their individual cd keys and were "purchased" but were obtained for next to nothing on the student software purchase prices while I was in college and I was supposed to uninstall and dispose of the materals at the end of the school year....not happening, especially since those versions are still supported.

Protecting software is like trying to stop the wind...you can try all you want but it's going to get through...maybe in small bits...but it can't be stopped. Which for me kind of sucks as I am a computer programmer by profession.

---------------

now after all that I think I kind of shot my self in the foot on my question...but I've alwayas wanted to "talk shop" with you lorne...about the language you used...and some of the coding hurdles in this project. I have had the oppertunity to borrow an e-mag for a day that had XMOD and I was quite impressed with it's function and functionality. That and I've always had the desire to look at your code and disect it....pick at it...learn something from it.

[LorneCash]

now after all that I think I kind of shot my self in the foot on my question...but I've alwayas wanted to "talk shop" with you lorne...about the language you used...and some of the coding hurdles in this project. I have had the oppertunity to borrow an e-mag for a day that had XMOD and I was quite impressed with it's function and functionality. That and I've always had the desire to look at your code and disect it....pick at it...learn something from it.


It was done in Atmel's AT90S2313 assembly language... if you want to know my hurdles you can read through my original development thread E/X-Mag Microcontroller Programming (Atmel AT90S2313) (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185314&page=1) where I picked many brains to fugure some stuff out.

I have also promised to post the fully commented source code when the last of my programmers sell... I have 24 left and when they're gone they're gone and I'm washing my hands of this project.

[behemoth]

Lorne,

At what point did you think it was a good idea for programmers? Was this not to be a profitable venture? Did you really think people would buy one, and NOT flash all their guns, their friends guns, and since this is a somewhat tight group of guys, their e-friends's guns? Or did you not care? Was this for the "betterment of the AGD Community?"

Hence why places like NOX will flash boards for a set 35 bucks.

If someone wanted something better than AGD3.2 (most everyone since that software has long since been outdated.) and was willing to pay 35-50 bucks to have their board flashed, dont you think they wouldve done it to other guns / told their friends?

If you wanted to make money, that was the way to go.
If you wanted to do this for the betterment of the community, or for any reason other than straight profit, the programmers are a good idea. But at what point can you reverse yourself, decide you wanted to make a profit instead, and try to say "Oh, well if you sell it. Take it off, and if you have it, give me 50 dollars. But i'm not going to force you...."

To me it just dont make sense.

[MANN]

I have also promised to post the fully commented source code when the last of my programmers sell... I have 24 left and when they're gone they're gone and I'm washing my hands of this project.

So are you then stating that people can flash others markers for profit? Are you giving up your license agreement after the 24 that are left sell? Will you make any other programmers after the 24 are sold?

[going_home]

The only way to get the software is to buy a programmer. I don't flash guns nor do I allow anyone who buys one of my programmers to flash guns. I know I can't enforce that but that is what I ask. I'm not trying to be mean I put a lot of hard work into this and it's only fair that I am the one that benefits from it.

Taken from here :

http://cgi.ebay.com/E-Mag-X-Mag-Ramping-Software-Upgrade-XMOD-BETA-1-8_W0QQitemZ330248754168QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item330 248754168&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318


Honestly I couldnt get the software on an Emag I had.
Its not as easy as its made out to be.
I dont have any Emags any more but this thread popping up after all this time seems to indicate money misfortunes by the inventor.

The genie is already out of the bottle now. The software should have been patented and sold on CD's instead of a free download. To little to late, to try and cash in now.
Dont act surprised because you got hammered when you posted this post.
Unfortunately because of the way you went about this project, this post will not make any friends in this forum for you. The criticism is deserved in my humble opinion.

I think its awesome software, and kudos to you, but this post was a bad idea sir.

:nono:

[Tunaman]

Yeap I do not do that anymore. I do agd software flashes for free, talking to lorne on a resolution for xmod flashes.


Edit: as to the license, He can alter/edit it at anytime.Are you a Certified AGD Tech? If not, you have no right distributing AGD software either. This software is also copyrighted. ;)

[LorneCash]

So are you then stating that people can flash others markers for profit? Are you giving up your license agreement after the 24 that are left sell? Will you make any other programmers after the 24 are sold?

once they are sold I will not be making any more programmers or cables for anyone.

[robnix]

Edit: as to the license, He can alter/edit it at anytime.
I don't see any license agreement that you need to agree to on his Ebay page, nor do I see one on his website that you need to agree to before downloading the software. I also I don't remember getting any licensing paperwork in the package I recieved when I bought mine, so what license did anyone purchasing the programmer agree to?

[behemoth]

I don't see any license agreement that you need to agree to on his Ebay page, nor do I see one on his website that you need to agree to before downloading the software. I also I don't remember getting any licensing paperwork in the package I recieved when I bought mine, so what license did anyone purchasing the programmer agree to?

I'll take "None" for 500, Alex.

[flyingpootang]

If it wasnt for the Xmod, the Emag would be dead and buried.

I'd would say dead in the water just with universal boards in them.

Come on AO where is the integrity that we all claim AO has over other forums :confused:
All that he's asking is you have the right morals, not give out the software for free, and pay him for what is fair. Just think if you where in his shoes.

Lorne: As a Xmod programmer owner I have sold emags in the past with your software on it. If I would have known that you wanted to be paid for each of them that didn't sell with the programmer, I would have flashed them with the stock software that it came with from AGD. Out of respect for you and your software I will honor your request from now on and forward you any money made from the benefit of your software. I hope you know that there are still honorable people on AO and hope to see more from you in the future......

AO: Do the right thing and stand by your values from this day forward. Pay Lorne for what he deserves.

[maniacmechanic]

I'd would say dead in the water just with universal boards in them.

Come on AO where is the integrity that we all claim AO has over other forums :confused:
All that he's asking is you have the right morals, not give out the software for free, and pay him for what is fair. Just think if you where in his shoes.

Lorne: As a Xmod programmer owner I have sold emags in the past with your software on it. If I would have known that you wanted to be paid for each of them that didn't sell with the programmer, I would have flashed them with the stock software that it came with from AGD. Out of respect for you and your software I will honor your request from now on and forward you any money made from the benefit of your software. I hope you know that there are still honorable people on AO and hope to see more from you in the future......

AO: Do the right thing and stand by your values from this day forward. Pay Lorne for what he deserves.

this is what i've been thinking through this whole thread , this is AO home of the straight up paintballer , that one of the big things to me about being a Magger ; honesty & integrity

[behemoth]

You all confuse me.

[hardr0ck68]

Some people have said "this software should have been patented" and implying that it was the programmers fault for trusting the purchasers...

isn't that the opposite of the AO community? Don't we usually get up in arms when SP or anyone else claims a PB technology as their own? The software he sells is the only real e-mag upgrade to hit for the last 5 years... and how does he get treated over that? He should have patented it if you wanted to get paid? Is that really where AO is at now??

[Beemer]

Finally after thirty seven posts in this thread, post thirty eight and thirty nine show the light.

Besides BigEvil where he quoted one of my posts. :argh:


Yeap I do not do that anymore.

Ya but, but , but.....how many DID you do???? :eek:

[Ruler_Mark]

Are you a Certified AGD Tech? If not, you have no right distributing AGD software either. This software is also copyrighted. ;)


I doubt they can stop you from removing the flash off of the board and placing it on another. If this was an issue I presume I would have been contacted sooner. If I missed some license somewhere on it please lmk.



Finally after thirty seven posts in this thread, post thirty eight and thirty nine show the light.

Besides BigEvil where he quoted one of my posts. :argh:



Ya but, but , but.....how many DID you do???? :eek:

As I told Lorne in a pm, only 3 or 4 past my 2 personal emags and one of my friend's. You will be surprized how many emags have the code vs agd software. Everyone would think I have done alot etc but when you do not advertise something you will be surprized how many actually happen. I didnt want todo any flashes tbh, but if you can provide something for somone on a budget why not?

[behemoth]

why not?

Because nowhere is it stated that you shouldnt. Infact, its been common practice since the software has been on the market.

Thats "why not"

[Beemer]

Because nowhere is it stated that you shouldnt. Infact, its been common practice since the software has been on the market.

Thats "why not"

Well yes, yes it is. I guess you just failed as others have to READ. :tard:

What part is it you dont understand again???????? Read the thread again.


The only way to get the software is to buy a programmer. I don't flash guns nor do I allow anyone who buys one of my programmers to flash guns. I know I can't enforce that but that is what I ask. I'm not trying to be mean I put a lot of hard work into this and it's only fair that I am the one that benefits from it.



I doubt they can stop you from removing the flash off of the board and placing it on another. If this was an issue I presume I would have been contacted sooner. If I missed some license somewhere on it please lmk.


As I told Lorne in a pm, only 3 or 4 past my 2 personal emags and one of my friend's. You will be surprized how many emags have the code vs agd software. Everyone would think I have done alot etc but when you do not advertise something you will be surprized how many actually happen. I didnt want todo any flashes tbh, but if you can provide something for somone on a budget why not?

I would seriously love to engage you and goinghome and others in this thread but alas I will not. I will say this in hopes that you GET it. The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys and if you want to play you have to pay. :spit_take

As far as AGD goes did you get permission to flash boards with their software????

[going_home]

I would seriously love to engage you and goinghome and others in this thread but alas I will not. I will say this in hopes that you GET it. The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys and if you want to play you have to pay. :spit_take

As far as AGD goes did you get permission to flash boards with their software????

Ahhh but I do get it sir.
Its Paul that doesnt by evidence of this thread.
He had an opportunity to make some money (albeit not much because as we know AGD stopped production of Emags) but he chose to give the software away for free.
Now he supposedly takes the high ground and demands money when he himself chose to give it away from the start ? Give me a break.
Show me the licensing agreement man.... put up or shut up is basically where it stands now.
And that my friend is what the mag community has very plainly said, they do get it sir !

Thats my humble opinion, not worth much but there it is anyways.
And like I said, I dont own anything electronic from AGD any more.
Doubtful I ever will again. The mech mag is more than a sufficient paint waster and if I feel
the need for electronics I will pull out the trusty Viking.
The Series 6 gets used more than anything at this point, but I'm still a die hard mag enthusiast.
Its just that I know cow pies when I see them sir, and this thread is one.

/end cognitive discourse

:D

[Tao]

What? Isn't that some kind of agreement that should be signed before someone purchases the programmer so it's legally binding?

you dont need a signature, since there is a contract when someone buys the licence to use x mod.

If I buy a used gun with xmod on it you shouldn't be in the loop. someone paid you for the programmer and used it for it's intended purpose you can't make rules midstream. That's like saying that if you sell a gun with a Dye barrel on it you should send dye $110 since a new person is using the barrel.

Agreed he could word it differently. He means that you aren't allow to sell your licence, so if you sell your gun you keep your licence (regardless if you use it or not) and the new user must purchase a licence.

You can't track these things once they leave your sight, you can't charge someone money for something you don't own (once you sell something it's not yours anymore) unless you have a legally binding contract when you initially sold the programmer I don't see where you have a leg to stand on here.

Arguably the license can be sold, but since xmod is subject to copy right you can't distribute any copies above the number of copies you are licenced to have. He does have a leg to stand on since he could sue for breach of copyright rather than breach of contract (as you suggest to sign a contract) however it is subject to having to sue to claim damages and criminally it wont be enforcible unless someone is distributing for profit... :(



Unfortunately there is the $$$ boundary for him to go after people who have been distributing his software.

[Tao]

Some people have said "this software should have been patented" and implying that it was the programmers fault for trusting the purchasers...

isn't that the opposite of the AO community? Don't we usually get up in arms when SP or anyone else claims a PB technology as their own? The software he sells is the only real e-mag upgrade to hit for the last 5 years... and how does he get treated over that? He should have patented it if you wanted to get paid? Is that really where AO is at now??

Technically the software can't be patented since it is intelectual property and not an invention, thus it is copy righted (which last longer than a patent anyway ;) )

[p8ntbal4me]

Put my 2cents in here while I can.

I read that disclaimer/request Lorne put in the manual.

I ended up buying 3 programmers from him.

It was stupid, cause after talking to him,... i mis-read his "request" and took it as 1 programmer per gun and not one programmer per gun owner over all his/her guns.

I like the xmod software for the adjustments,..... it helps tweak my guns where I want them.

Ive sold 2 of them,.. and its nice to "back-up" the AGD code and re-install it to the gun the way AGD wanted to sell it to the consumer.

I dont know about all the regulations or rights protecting the baords in the AGD guns,.... but I do know that AGD wants the best product for there customers,... and for my needs,.. XMOD is the best software.

The AGD software might be protected,.. but Im gonna go ahead and say that the board is not. In a market where the hardware gets outdated in a few months/years,... Id think the board is an item that can be changed without causing a legal battle. I would think the software is protected and should not be modified.

I guess what I want to come out of this post is: what little we have to use at this point helps a whole lot. No one is getting fat off of someone elses R&D to the point where a new board/marker could hit the market. Id say let the voices/opinions be heard,.. and let the creativity still flow. This is AGD Land,...... we make miracles work from shear nothing around here!

~ P8nt

[Tao]

Yeap I do not do that anymore. I do agd software flashes for free, talking to lorne on a resolution for xmod flashes.


Edit: as to the license, He can alter/edit it at anytime.

Actually he can't edit/alter it at any time. He can ONLY if it is stated in the contract for aquiring the license that he can alter it at any time. Otherwise the orriginal contract is binding and you own what was originally purchased i.e. the orignal licence. ;)

[behemoth]

Well yes, yes it is. I guess you just failed as others have to READ. :tard:

What part is it you dont understand again???????? Read the thread again.



If there's anyone out there that doesn't know what XMOD is you really need to get out from under that rock you've been hiding under... Check out my threads in Deep Blue or go to my web site www.NiedTech.com for details... basicly its a Software upgrade that adds 9 different firing modes plus everything else you could ever dream up to your E-Mag, X-Mag or SFL

OK guys I recently moved and in the process of unpacking I've found 6 more xmod cables so If there's anyone here on AO that want's them speak up now... Next week friday any that I have left will go up on eBay.

(two are spoken for but no $$$ yet)

I do have 50 brand new programmers in my closet but I only have 6 cables left so until I find the money to get more cables made thats it for now.

The Price is $132 ($120 + $12 S&H)

Where?

I dont really care. I just think its a bit...uhh....backwards.

Like i said earlier, if he was going about this to make profit, he did it all wrong.
If he wasnt, then why reverse himself now and change his terms?

[Beemer]

Ahhh but I do get it sir.
Its Paul that doesnt by evidence of this thread.
He had an opportunity to make some money (albeit not much because as we know AGD stopped production of Emags) but he chose to give the software away for free.
Now he supposedly takes the high ground and demands money when he himself chose to give it away from the start ? Give me a break.
Show me the licensing agreement man.... put up or shut up is basically where it stands now.
And that my friend is what the mag community has very plainly said, they do get it sir !

Thats my humble opinion, not worth much but there it is anyways.
And like I said, I dont own anything electronic from AGD any more.
Doubtful I ever will again. The mech mag is more than a sufficient paint waster and if I feel
the need for electronics I will pull out the trusty Viking.
The Series 6 gets used more than anything at this point, but I'm still a die hard mag enthusiast.
Its just that I know cow pies when I see them sir, and this thread is one.

/end cognitive discourse

:D

He didnt GIVE it away. You posted the link and still dont get it sir. It is plain to see that no matter how much I explain you still wont get it so dont say that you do. Re-read the thread again and try to comprehend it. Pay attention to the link YOU posted.

If this thread is a cow pie I will remember that when you make a thread of your own. :cheers:

[Geronimo7]

I dont really care.

Then why post?

I don't think this started as "I wanna make some money thread" .. there will never be profit gained to LorneCash. I don't think money will replace what he did and neither does he. It was for us! What he is asking for is for is noteability, and a respect from the ones who cried for it.

Gimme a break, a few bucks from all the people that benefited from his software without paying for it is not too much to ask. Now granted you can't go back and say......hey one year ago you bought a gun with my stuff on it, gimme money..No thats stupid. But to say...hey if your gonna do this.........just remember who made it all possible.


Sorry didn't mean to single you out, but this thread doesn't deserve all this and certainly isn't worth what it is turning into.


I'm gonna go get another beer :cheers:

[devildog]

you guys are a bunch of babies. He is not "demanding" money from anyone, so drop all the legal talk and get off your high horses. If you dont want to donate, then dont, and shut up. I cant believe ive been spending more time on pbnation than here. Thank god for mcb.

lornecash- i dont have xmod. I havent owned an emag in over 4 years. I will still donate some cash to you. Pm me your paypal. I will cover for one of these lowlifes.

[BenoitOWN]

Bought myself a programmer from him. I don't like this at all because it set me a little back from my e-mag project. I didnt really benefit from his software for now as when I played the battery got dead and I could only use the mechanical mod but it will soon come to get used.

[Beemer]

you guys are a bunch of babies. He is not "demanding" money from anyone, so drop all the legal talk and get off your high horses. If you dont want to donate, then dont, and shut up. I cant believe ive been spending more time on pbnation than here. Thank god for mcb.

lornecash- i dont have xmod. I havent owned an emag in over 4 years. I will still donate some cash to you. Pm me your paypal. I will cover for one of these lowlifes.

Ha ha awwsome at least you get it. Watch out for that other place it WILL hurt your head with too much use.

[Old School 626]

Lorne,

Here is an interesting aside... How about a US postal address or PO box so that people who like your software and want to support you can send you an anonymous CASH donation, without a paper trail?

The reason I ask is that some people may be nervous that if you have moved this far from your original "ask yourself how much you'd be willing to pay to buy it" stance then the next step may be to try to legally enforce something you have yet to think of and those same people that would otherwise donate don't want to be listed as some one who has or had the software.

[Ruler_Mark]

Actually he can't edit/alter it at any time. He can ONLY if it is stated in the contract for aquiring the license that he can alter it at any time. Otherwise the orriginal contract is binding and you own what was originally purchased i.e. the orignal licence. ;)


Figured he had it in there as thats line is pretty much standard to any license.


you guys are a bunch of babies. He is not "demanding" money from anyone, so drop all the legal talk and get off your high horses. If you dont want to donate, then dont, and shut up. I cant believe ive been spending more time on pbnation than here. Thank god for mcb.

lornecash- i dont have xmod. I havent owned an emag in over 4 years. I will still donate some cash to you. Pm me your paypal. I will cover for one of these lowlifes.


kudos to you.


Beemer shooting you a pm.

oh and btw, never did flash with agd software except my own gun to try going back from xmod to my original software. Just curious upon this subject personally for many reasons, you tell me no and I wont offer it but still would like your opinion.

[teufelhunden]

See, if you really wanted to get into it, because the software was posted for download with no restrictions and no required pricing vehicle (i.e., you didn't need to pay anything before you were able to download), the software was free for public consumption. Lornecash was selling the means to take the openly downloaded software and put it on your gun.

It's roughly analogous to going to a frat party; when you walk up, you pay $5 and get a cup, not the beer. As such, you are buying the means with which to drink beer which is provided free and is otherwise unable to be consumed. Kinda.

Further, Lornecash, will you be paying taxes on any proceeds? Schedule C is calling.

[Oregon_pb_]

i find it funny a third of the people "walk on water" and are coming across worse than the egglets over at pbnation with their nose so far up in the air they walk into a tree routinely.

the middle third is about normal and are merely pointing out the topic is fairly absurd given the state of the emag, marketability, and the fact that no one is profiting from this, why now?

then the last third are the ones who pirate software, movies, and everything else. Then post here as its free download, why would we ever pay?




I try to stay in the normal area, but I do sway to the lower third at times (rarely anymore now that I can afford not to) but the absolute worst IMO is the top third. I can't stand that attitude from anyone, usually its a e-ploy but even if not, its just not normal and usually always leads to judgment of others. :ninja:


I like to think AO in general is a understanding, adult group of people who use wisdom and logic to make decisions and help each other (no greed or self interest). The point when looking down upon another user/person is the point I draw the line and move on. I hope this thread is unique (not Lorne, but the responses) and does not signal the beginning of a trend and thus the end of AO for me.

[Tao]

See, if you really wanted to get into it, because the software was posted for download with no restrictions and no required pricing vehicle (i.e., you didn't need to pay anything before you were able to download), the software was free for public consumption. Lornecash was selling the means to take the openly downloaded software and put it on your gun.

It's roughly analogous to going to a frat party; when you walk up, you pay $5 and get a cup, not the beer. As such, you are buying the means with which to drink beer which is provided free and is otherwise unable to be consumed. Kinda.

Further, Lornecash, will you be paying taxes on any proceeds? Schedule C is calling.

True. However, anyone who bought the programmer have it in their contract of purchase that they may not use their programmer to flash other peoples guns. The people who have are in breach of contract.
People who have their own programmers can install at will...

But yeah I hope poeple will donate since he put alot of work into it. Hopefully lorne will come out with a 1.9 which you will need a license for and perhaps he can do it in a way he will get paid for it, rather than scrapping it altogether... :(

[going_home]

See, if you really wanted to get into it, because the software was posted for download with no restrictions and no required pricing vehicle (i.e., you didn't need to pay anything before you were able to download), the software was free for public consumption. Lornecash was selling the means to take the openly downloaded software and put it on your gun.
Further, Lornecash, will you be paying taxes on any proceeds? Schedule C is calling.

Bingo, he gets it.

Nice try Bman.
The link I posted is an auction thats 1.5 days old.
Thats the best you can do ?
Thats here and now like this thread.
After two years of free unrestricted downloads it means zip, zero, zilch, nada.
But you go ahead on because:
1) I'm not going to agree with you and you arent going to agree with me so further discourse is pointless
2) I dont have an Emag and likely never will again so its a mute point as far as I'm concerned

You have a wonderful day now !

:D

[devildog]

Guys you are missing the point. He is not threatening anybody with licensing agreements and legal action. He is asking for the kindness of ao to help him out. If you don't want to, you don't have to. Why is everyone getting so defensive about this?

[robertsr1811]

It's because they know they're in the wrong. :)

[phatty123]

If the cable and or software did't come with a user agreement stating the rules of use, well then their is nothing that can be said. People can flash as many guns as they want. I doubt you can make a user agreement retroactive. Should of thought about the long run.


my two cents

-barry

[Phaelynar]

It's because they know they're in the wrong. :)


If you bought the coolest and newest software for a Blackberry that allowed you to install it on unlimited amounts of other people's phones with no restrictions at the time of purchase, then whoever created the software retroactively created an "agreement" (that no one ever agreed upon) demanding $200 for every phone you've sold in the past with the software on it, you'd do it?

I'm going to say nope. They wouldn't see a cent from anyone. That's the cost of doing business my friend. If he was out to make money he should have made this the original agreement at date of purchase or refuse to sell programmers and flash boards himself for a nominal fee. Instead, he chose to make money through selling the programmers. The only person's fault that is, is his. No one is morally wrong for handing out free flashes, selling the programmer and keeping their flashes, or whatever else they feel like doing with the programmer or his software as it was never stated that it was wrong to do so originally.

If it wasn't illegal to download/pirate/film a movie in the theater/etc would the people who did it feel morally wrong? Nope. People (I'd say the majority of) do it today when it's illegal and they don't feel wrong about it.

So in other words: It's not morally wrong if there were no morals regarding the use of the programmers originally.

[Looper]

I work in the IT industry and I can tell you that what you have here on AO is software piracy.

For all of you that bought the programmer; you had to install "AVR Studio 4" and USB drivers onto your PC for the programmer. How was this accomplished? By reading a XMod users guide that was nicely constructed and very informative. It was so informative that it had a License agreement in the very beginning. It would be real interested in know how many people, with programmers, where able to get their emags flashed with out reading the XMod users guide.


Shrink wrap contracts are license agreements or other terms and conditions of a (putatively) contractual nature which can only be read and accepted by the consumer after opening the product. The term describes the shrinkwrap plastic wrapping used to coat software boxes, though these contracts are not limited to the software industry. Web-wrap, click-wrap and browse-wrap are related terms which refer to license agreements in software which is downloaded or used over the internet.


You can download and read the XMod users guide without buying the software so all the complaints about not seeing the agreement before you bought a programmer has no argument to stand on.

The ultimate question is, what kind of a person do you want to be know as... One who uses others or one that respects others.... Remember Karma....

If you do not like what is happing maybe you should have your XMod firmware removed out of protest. :rolleyes:

[B-Pow]

Why is everyone getting so defensive about this?

Because as a whole paintballers who are mature and have been around for a while...and remeber what has happened in the past.....are jaded. Once bitten twice shy...it wasn't lorne who burned us in the past....but you'd be nieve to believe that we haven't been burned...several times.

[Looper]

I dont have an Emag and likely never will again so its a mute point as far as I'm concernedSo tell me again, why are you here?

[devildog]

Because as a whole paintballers who are mature and have been around for a while...and remeber what has happened in the past.....are jaded. Once bitten twice shy...it wasn't lorne who burned us in the past....but you'd be nieve to believe that we haven't been burned...several times.

How is he burning you? He is REQUESTING donations, if you dont want to, you dont have to. So where is the burn?

To phaelynar- he is not demanding money from anyone, especially not from markers sold in the past like you said in your example.

[robnix]

I work in the IT industry and I can tell you that what you have here on AO is software piracy.

For all of you that bought the programmer; you had to install "AVR Studio 4" and USB drivers onto your PC for the programmer. How was this accomplished? By reading a XMod users guide that was nicely constructed and very informative. It was so informative that it had a License agreement in the very beginning. It would be real interested in know how many people, with programmers, where able to get their emags flashed with out reading the XMod users guide.

You can download and read the XMod users guide without buying the software so all the complaints about not seeing the agreement before you bought a programmer has no argument to stand on.

Not quite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specht_v._Netscape_Communications_Corp.

The court ruled that the software license agreement was not binding because a binding contract means that both parties know of the terms and agree to them. The Smart Download license agreement was not binding because 1) the user did not have to click on an icon or link to indicate assent before downloading and using the software 2) the text near where the user can download the application merely indicated an invitation to view the license agreement not a strong condition that the user must agree to the agreement before using the software 3) the full text of the license agreement was only visible if the user clicked on a text next to the download button.

Klocek v. Gateway, Inc., et al.
http://www.internetlibrary.com/cases/lib_case209.cfm

The court held that the transaction at issue was governed by the Uniform Commercial Code ("UCC"). It held further that, for the purpose of this motion, "plaintiff offered to purchase the computer (either in person or through catalog order) and that Gateway accepted plaintiff's offer (either by completing the sales transaction in person or by agreeing to ship and/or shipping the computer to plaintiff)."

The Standard Terms are either "an expression of acceptance or written confirmation" of plaintiff's offer, governed by Section 2-207 of the UCC. Under that section, to the extent the Standard Terms contain terms contrary or additional to those contained in plaintiff's initial offer (such as the mandatory arbitration clause at issue), they only become binding upon the plaintiff if expressly accepted by him.

At one time you could download the AVR software by following a link from Lorne's site. There was no need for the manual, and regardless, unless you have or can build your own programmer, there's no agreement to terms before the purchase of the hardware necessary to do the flash.

[LorneCash]

...will you be paying taxes on any proceeds?

I have paid taxes on all my ebay profits for the past 2 years now... (since the projecet started)

I appreciate some of the more noble people on AO chiming in here... and no this isn't an "I wanna make some money thread" it wasn't meant to be an arguement either all I wanted to do was state what I wanted as clearly as I could since apparently there was some questions about that.

As I said before I'm not going to be comming after anyone legally or otherwise so it really doesn't matter whether I "have a leg to stand on". I'm not forcing anything I'm ASKING the AO comunity to respect what I have done. I don't ever post on PB Nation I think we all know what's there and I don't really want any part of that... I'm simply trying to be clear on what I expect to the people that will listen and in my mind many have. Agreed there will always be those that don't and no amount of Legal written verbal or other agreement will stop them from copying anything. The only way to stop that would have been to never give the ability to flash a gun to the public but I did choose to do that knowing full well there would be turds out there that steal even when I'm trying to help the comunity.

Several people have commented and said they didn't realize that's what I wanted both by PM and by posting... If you flashed peoples guns in the past not knowing it was against my wishes and now you choose not to that's great that's all I'm asking. Whatever you did in the past is in the past I'm just tryin gto be clear for the future.

This whole thread actually started over Ruler_Mark... he was freely flashing guns he serviced to XMOD if his customers wanted it. We now have an agreement and all I will do is ask that he and everyone else follows it too since apparently it wasn't clearly stated before.

Hopefully by now it's crystal for everyone and it's up to you what to do next. If you want to send me $50 as a thank you great if not that's your business.

Here's some facts for you though:

Total I ordered 200 programmers 50 in my initial order 100 in my second order and 50 in my last order... I have 20ish left I sold them for $100 up until the last order when the cost to me was increased due to the dollar vs euro and stuff. Now I sell them for $120

The first year I sold XMOD I my gross income from it was the highest but my net was actually negative after you counted all the fees and equipment I bought, boards I fried in the process, and the additional gun I bought for development ONLY.

This past year I made a couple thousand profit and I hope to sell the last couple for a couple thousand profit since right now I have that investment I made sitting in my closet collecting dust.

Now you may think oh that's great you made a few thousand bucks but now lets consider the ammount of time I've spent... the best I can figure I spent close to 1000hrs developing this software and dozens maybe hundreds of hours supporting it. I had a guy (older guy) who bought a programmer in Canada who was probably the most computer ignorant person on the planet... He was worried about this when he purchased it and I gave him my cell number and told him I would walk him through it. He got the programmer and while we were talking I could tell that he still wasn't comfortable with it so I connected to him via a GoTo meeting similar to a webex... had him give me control of his keyboard and mouse and did the whole computer part for him... all I asked him to do was connect the USB to his computer and the cable to his gun.... My whole point is yea a made some money but I've put so much time in that the money I've gained is FAR less than minimum wage.

I've never posted that stuff before and really only shared it with my close friends. I'm not begging for anything just letting the community know so that hopefully I can sell of the remaining programmers and be done.

[devildog]

where do we send the 50 to?

[LorneCash]

where do we send the 50 to?

Donations can be sent Paypal to pniedfeldt@gmail.com

[FiXeL]

Well the software was freely available for download on your site, and the programmer costs a fair amount of $ for what it is. You could have earned alot of money if people didnt sell the programmer on after flashing their gun. As noble of some of the AO users are, there are alot out there that are currently lauching their behind off because you are asking a fee for the software use...

And i'm one of them. Not because i don't want to support Xmod, but you dared to ask $50 shipping when i tried to buy a programmer from you and you refused to ship it any other way than UPS.

But i was reading this topic yesterday and it gave me an idea today... Xmod 1.8 has been out for quite some time, and yes it does wonders to a e/xmag but what about version 2.0? But this time instead of giving people the .hex files, make a licenced software compiler that enables users to make their own custom .hex files for their gun, something like nero for CD/DVD burning.

The Atmel chip on the board has only 2K memory inside, and there could be alot of other things crammed on there if some things were left from the Xmod 1.8 hex file that the user won't use. I don't see any use for some of the firemodes, but i would like to set the pbs when ramping kicks in, if using it. With the current version you will have to reflash the gun, and custom boot messages have to be compiled by you.

You could make a compiler that uses a menu with all the things you would want to put inside the Atmel chip, with a bar like nero to indicate the total hex size. Users can than put new things in, and leave things they won't use out.

New things could be:

- Custom boot messages
- Battery voltage indicator (possible?)
- Set bps when ramping kicks in
- Shot counter (either total shots like the AGD software, or total after power on)
- Blinking pixel to indicate the gun is on
- All options currently available in Xmod 1.8
- All options available with AGD software

I don't know much about programming chips or software, and i take this would be a large challenge to make without a large customer base, but i would surely buy something like this if it was available. You could make the software in a way it has to check the licence online to be functional. This however will not prevent one user flashing guns for others tho.

My 2 cents.

[Ruler_Mark]

FiXel, He stated previously that after the remaining chargers are sold he is going to release the code open source. I myself am personally interested in that and I know several other people that would consider making further enhancements etc as par what you said. bear in mind the memory limit of course.

[B-Pow]

Because as a whole paintballers who are mature and have been around for a while...and remeber what has happened in the past.....are jaded. Once bitten twice shy...<B>it wasn't lorne who burned us in the past</B>....but you'd be nieve to believe that we haven't been burned...several times.



How is he burning you? He is REQUESTING donations, if you dont want to, you dont have to. So where is the burn?

To phaelynar- he is not demanding money from anyone, especially not from markers sold in the past like you said in your example.

Read it again...and again....until you see that I never said he burned any of us, in fact I said he was not the cause of our jaded cynisim. I am answering the open question you asked, if you want to try to twist it into an attack on someone go ahead...because the text is all there if you take the time to read it.

[LorneCash]

Once I post the source code anyone who has a programmer will be able to make their own custom boot messages

[devildog]

Read it again...and again....until you see that I never said he burned any of us, in fact I said he was not the cause of our jaded cynisim. I am answering the open question you asked, if you want to try to twist it into an attack on someone go ahead...because the text is all there if you take the time to read it.

so you are assuming he might burn you because others have in the past, and slamming the guy for nothing? you may not have come right out and said, but the implication was there.

[B-Pow]

so you are assuming he might burn you because others have in the past, and slamming the guy for nothing? you may not have come right out and said, but the implication was there.

Where are you getting this idea that I'm slamming him?

The most "unfriendly" post I have regarding Lorne him is my first one in this thread...maybe. Where I paint a picture of the current climate in the software world. How many freely availible software options are availible, and how piracy is not always black and white.I never once in any of my posts called him any names.

To be honest I respect Lorne...anyone who codes in assembly, and does it WELL, deserves it...that language is a cluster of terrible. I should know I've worked in assembly and it was the worst time I ever had writing computer code.

Your precieved implication is unfounded. :nono:

[devildog]

i meant everyone is slamming him, or the majority of the posters anyway.

[Enemy]

my question would be why would you make it a requirement to sell the programer with a gun that has Xmod.. or if you come into possesion of a gun with xmod already on it to pay you $50..

I completley understand the request for donations from people that have come into having xmod through a programmer they did not pay for but for you to ask that you get paid twice for software on the same gun then I call that out of line, it would be like a me buying a computer and then paying microsoft for the software that the previous owner paid microsoft for.

other than that that was my only complaint and if you save me a programmer ill be contacting you next week for one.

[LorneCash]

my question would be why would you make it a requirement to sell the programer with a gun that has Xmod.. or if you come into possesion of a gun with xmod already on it to pay you $50..

If someone sells a gun with XMOD on it and does not include the programmer I would like a donation because they are using my software for free or without paying me at least.

If someone buys a gun with XMOD and a programmer then I don't expect anything from them. That programmer was paid for.

If someone sells a programmer without a gun most likely they are still using XMOD on their own gun and just selling the programmer. In this case I can't expect the person who buys the programmer to give me anything but simply for the person selling it to understand they are the one ripping me off.

oh end don't worry I'll have plenty left for a while.

[Enemy]

If someone sells a gun with XMOD on it and does not include the programmer I would like a donation because they are using my software for free or without paying me at least.

i understood the rest but this is the part im getting hung up on as the software on that gun was paid for when A) theprogrammer that was used was purchased.. or B) which is more of my point, the program was purchased from you already for $50, this is where we get into double payment for one flash... So maybe it would be more prudent to say that any individual in possesion of a programmer should not sell any guns with xmod on them while plannig on programming your code into another marker, and if the seller is not in possession of a programmer and recieved the code through a legimate route than said software is paid for and there would be no need for the next owner to foward you any donations.

[LorneCash]

...this is the part im getting hung up on...

Not quite sure what the hang up is it's really quite simple...

If you've bought a programmer from me or paid me for a flash, you purchased your "license" to use xmod from me and owe me nothing more no matter what.

If you buy a programmer from someone else you bought the "license" I sold them. (they may be stealing from me by keeping the software and selling the "license" but that's not your problem...) You owe me nothing.

If you buy a gun with XMOD on it or get someone to flash the gun for you... this is where I am asking for a donation (assiming you didn't get the "license" AKA programmer with the gun) My logic here is that if they wanted to sell you the "license" that they bought they would have sold you the programmer.

If someone is selling a programmer without a gun they are most likely stealing from me because they are most likely keeping the software on their gun and yet selling the license.

there are a few other rare cases that I covered in my first post but that covers 99% them.

[Chris Nearchos]

quick question, but how many are left in stock atm?

thanks,
-Chris

[LorneCash]

quick question, but how many are left in stock atm?

thanks,

-Chris

I have 21 at my house and a few at work that are ready to ship

[raehl]

And if you sold the programmers without any of this "agreement" actually agreed upon, no one has to listen to it.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

He has copyright in the program. You *CAN NOT LEGALLY MAKE COPIES OF THAT PROGRAM AT ALL* (minus limited fair-use backup purposes).

Unless you had an agreement with him that when you paid for one copy you could make as many copies as you want, you CAN NOT MAKE ANY COPIES AT ALL.

Additionally, copyright also covers distribution. So EVEN if he gave you the right to make unlimited copies for your own use, unless he agreed when you bought your copy to let you ALSO distribute the copy, that is also not legal either.

Now, if you have one copy. you can sell that one copy to anyone. That's totally legit, and he's not trying to prevent anyone from doing that.

In fact, with this post, he's actually giving EVERYONE a distribution right that they did not have before - whereas originally you had NO right to redistribute, now you can, so long as you send him $50 for each copy you distribute.


Don't like it? Then stop stealing his software.


- Chris

[garbageman705]

This is ugly. How ungrateful some of you are for this mans work. It really is sickening.

[grEnAlEins]

This is ugly. How ungrateful some of you are for this mans work. It really is sickening.
QFT. It is absolutely disgusting. It is not like he is trying to make a killing. He just wants to be paid for what he worked hard for. What is even worse is I met LorneCash some time ago at a PB Sam's big game, and it just so happens that he is a really nice guy (or at least seemed to be). It is too bad that people are taking advantage of his hard work and his trust in us to do what is right. If I snag lowers after I get this grad school thing finished I will be paying him for his code or a programmer one way or the other. It is the right thing to do.

[sffudapparel]

This is ugly. How ungrateful some of you are for this mans work. It really is sickening.

Seriously. I wish he had built a self destruct mechanism into it. Then he could delete the programs remotely and then watch people line back up to buy it :spit_take


I'll admit, 50 dollars is expensive, but from the sounds of it, he put in a crapload of work to make it happen

[garbageman705]

AGD sure wasn't going to make competitive software for an aging platform. I myself don't use XMOD or even own an E-Mag anymore but I do have to agree that it is a nice program that allows an E-Mag to conform to standard tournament rules.

I am thankful.

[cyberave68]

my question would be why would you make it a requirement to sell the programer with a gun that has Xmod.. or if you come into possesion of a gun with xmod already on it to pay you $50..

I completley understand the request for donations from people that have come into having xmod through a programmer they did not pay for but for you to ask that you get paid twice for software on the same gun then I call that out of line, it would be like a me buying a computer and then paying microsoft for the software that the previous owner paid microsoft for.

other than that that was my only complaint and if you save me a programmer ill be contacting you next week for one.
I agree on this point.



If someone sells a gun with XMOD on it and does not include the programmer I would like a donation because they are using my software for free or without paying me at least.

If someone buys a gun with XMOD and a programmer then I don't expect anything from them. That programmer was paid for.

If someone sells a programmer without a gun most likely they are still using XMOD on their own gun and just selling the programmer. In this case I can't expect the person who buys the programmer to give me anything but simply for the person selling it to understand they are the one ripping me off.

oh end don't worry I'll have plenty left for a while.

Most of us who would have paid YOU to load X-mod on our guns were doing so to have the software on the gun. If someone paid you to load the software on there gun, its paid for is it not. When person "X" then sells the gun he adds $50 to the price of his gun thus selling his bought and paid for software upgrade, is that not right?

I tried to look around but not with much luck. I was looking to see if there was any info on how you sell your software. I didn't see a user licence any where which would lead me to believe you were paying for the software, not the right to use it??? If I am wrong please point it out to me. That's the only thing that's seems to confuse me about the whole thing. I know that you did a lot of work on this project and am grateful for it, but I just don't get it as I cant find any info that states how it was being sold?

Cy

[LorneCash]

think of it this way... the programmer is your "license" to use unlimited copys of my software for your personal use. If you have 3 guns and load it on all of them then sells them one at a time without selling the programmer then they are getting $50 extra from each gun = $150 plus then they can sell the programmer for another $50-100 that means they make a $150 ($50x3) profit that should be mine. If they choose to sell the programmer then the new person who has the programmer has the right to load it on all their guns and I have no issue with that. However there are three people out there that paid their $50 extra to the seller not to me. And I don't think that I'm beeing greedy by asking that someone else does not profit from my work. I'm ok with them selling it but then they must sell all of it and not keep a few copys to sell for their own profit.

[afortuna]

think of it this way... the programmer is your "license" to use unlimited copys of my software for your personal use. If you have 3 guns and load it on all of them then sells them one at a time without selling the programmer then they are getting $50 extra from each gun = $150 plus then they can sell the programmer for another $50-100 that means they make a $150 ($50x3) profit that should be mine. If they choose to sell the programmer then the new person who has the programmer has the right to load it on all their guns and I have no issue with that. However there are three people out there that paid their $50 extra to the seller not to me. And I don't think that I'm beeing greedy by asking that someone else does not profit from my work. I'm ok with them selling it but then they must sell all of it and not keep a few copys to sell for their own profit.


Best just not to get in the middle of this. Hope it works out for everyone.

[Ruler_Mark]

If you buy a game for your PC or gaming console, you are paying the fee to use that game. Typically the store you are purchasing it from has already paid for the game and has then added a mark-up when they resell the game. The game manufacturer doesn't require the secondary customer to pay twice for the one game. That customer then plays till his heart is content and then gets bored and puts it up on ebay for sell. He then collects the money and sends out the game to the new owner. The new owner can even register the game as his if he would like, but again isn't charged by the original manufacturer.

Our economic system, as bad a shape as it is in at this point, would have collapsed a long time ago if we were forced to pay the original manufacturer every time we purchased something used. My memory may be incorrect on this, but I thought you were giving away the software when you first came out with it. Downloadable from your website? The only thing you were charging for was the actual hardware that you put together that allowed the software to be loaded onto the marker. Anyway you look at it, unless you are leasing the equipment to someone, if they purchased that equipment out-right, then they have the full bundle of rights for that personal property.

Now, you may have a case if someone is reselling your software, but unless you have protected your intellectual rights to that property you are going to have a hard time stopping someone. On your $50 example, you may be making an assumption the sales price of the gun was increased $50 over the market value of the gun, hence the seller making "an extra $50." I don't know either way if those sales were over the market price, but just something to consider. People buy and resell stuff for a profit all of the time. Unless you established at the time of the sale the property could not be resold, you don't have much to protect yourself with.

Even though I've never used your software, I've never read anything bad or negative about it. Thank you for making another sound and solid option for Mag owners.


You are not getting his point.


You can be license under 2 ways:

You own an xmod programmer.

The gun has a licensed flash, ie sometime in the past 50$ was paid to lorne for that single flash license.

[grEnAlEins]

If you buy a game for your PC or gaming console, you are paying the fee to use that game. Typically the store you are purchasing it from has already paid for the game and has then added a mark-up when they resell the game. The game manufacturer doesn't require the secondary customer to pay twice for the one game. That customer then plays till his heart is content and then gets bored and puts it up on ebay for sell. He then collects the money and sends out the game to the new owner. The new owner can even register the game as his if he would like, but again isn't charged by the original manufacturer.

Our economic system, as bad a shape as it is in at this point, would have collapsed a long time ago if we were forced to pay the original manufacturer every time we purchased something used. My memory may be incorrect on this, but I thought you were giving away the software when you first came out with it. Downloadable from your website? The only thing you were charging for was the actual hardware that you put together that allowed the software to be loaded onto the marker. Anyway you look at it, unless you are leasing the equipment to someone, if they purchased that equipment out-right, then they have the full bundle of rights for that personal property.

Now, you may have a case if someone is reselling your software, but unless you have protected your intellectual rights to that property you are going to have a hard time stopping someone. On your $50 example, you may be making an assumption the sales price of the gun was increased $50 over the market value of the gun, hence the seller making "an extra $50." I don't know either way if those sales were over the market price, but just something to consider. People buy and resell stuff for a profit all of the time. Unless you established at the time of the sale the property could not be resold, you don't have much to protect yourself with.

Even though I've never used your software, I've never read anything bad or negative about it. Thank you for making another sound and solid option for Mag owners.


But there is still only one copy of the game and thus one license. If you flash a gun and sell it without the buyer paying for another license or a complete transfer of your license you (or the buyer) are stealing, end of story. The same is true if sell your programmer after flashing your markers without removing the software first. It would be like buying a game, burning it, and selling the original, or burning several copies and selling those. You are duplicating the software without license and therefore a thief.