Q loader practical for tourney?

[Hgblues]

I currently use a warp left Epneu mag with 12v revy mounted on a warpfeed, and have been using this same warp setup for 8 years. I'm a tourney player, not much rec ball.

My question is, is the Q loader practical to use in todays tourney setting. My 2 major concerns are, the low number of paint in a Q loader pod (isn't it 100 balls?), and the time it takes to swap a pod. Take into consideration most tourneys I play in are psp ramp, so, 13.3 bps (can empty 100 pballs quick) and a fast paced game (need to reload fast as possible)

I have seen some very nice Q loader setup pics, and with my current gun setup being 8 pounds 8 oz.'s , I'm looking to cut weight without losing performance.


Fire away !! :shooting:

[michbich]

I've never used one, but another disadvantage of the Q is that you can't feed while reloading.

For slow woods game, it wouldn't matter, but for tourneys....

[snoopay700]

They're horrible, even in woodsball one won't last long and they're a hassle, i got one and hated it, got a halo instead and i can get just as low of a profile with it because i can turn the gun about 45 degrees sideways or more and it'll still feed. I would stick with what you have or get an electronic force feed, q-loaders really don't have a place in speedball it would seem.

[ThePixelGuru]

I use a Qloader and I like it, though it's more for the small profile than anything else.

As another poster mentioned, it's true that you can't shoot while reloading. You can flip your marker and do a sort of rock-n-cock style thing in a pinch, but you're kind of vulnerable to bunkering while your pod's out. Of course, you can switch them pretty quickly, so if you time it right you should be OK. They do only hold 100 rounds, so you have a lower on-marker capacity and you only get 100 rounds in your pack where you used to get 140.

As far as reliability goes, it's all about the individual. Maintenance, setup and just plain familiarity with the system will all affect how it works on the field. Probably your best bet is to buy a used one with a couple pods and try it out, since you can always resell it if it doesn't suit you. I prefer it to my old Warp, though the Warp could be less hassle.

[Toll]

If you're playing back avoid it like the plague. If you're upfront maybe. Maybe.

The biggest issue is reloading. It's not any more cumbersome than a standard hopper (for the most part) but you have to keep your over all tally alot more careful than you do a standard hopper.

The real downside is the fact that you're going to end up spending ALOT of money (if you want to carry more than 300 on you) on something that doesn't have amazing abilities.

Lets say you pick up a qloader and 5 pods for 150$, a pretty good deal.
Costs 50$ for a stock halo, maybe 15$ for 5 lock lids.

[GoatBoy]

Hrm. Let's see. Wrong. And Wrong. And OK. And Wrong Again.

Your biggest problems will be, in order:


Rules governing hoppers/pods during tournament events
Your personal mechanical aptitude
Paint carrying capacity


Those are the REAL issues to deal with.

From what I understand, the rules may dictate that a q-pod is actually a live piece of equipment, and thus you can't drop it or toss it like a normal pod. Even if that isn't a hard set rule, there is a further rule that extends even to normal pods sometimes -- if you don't empty all of the paint out of a pod, then it's considered a live device, and the above rule applies again.

This is bad if you decide you want to go ahead and reload early, and your pod winds up retaining some paint in it.

This is a serious, serious liability for tournament play. And it's nothing to do with how well or how poorly the system works, and everything to do with how the (quite arbitrary) rules are structured.


Second, if you have no mechanical aptitude (and the fact that you're playing with the warp seems to indicate you might have some), then the q-loader is not for you. You can use some of the other people's experiences as an example.

Third is the paint carrying capacity. Yes, if you're a back, you probably won't want to go with a q-loader. If you're a front, that's a different story. Next time you go out and play, take a look at how many 140 round pods a good front player is actually carrying. Times have changed.


The rest of this post deals with the FUD and bull that people keep saying about the q-loader.

Yes, tilting a conventional hopper can help... in that one instance where you're sitting behind a Dorito. The problem is your marker is more than just your hopper, and certainly everything below it, including your arm, counts. I.e. when you tilt your HOPPER inwards, in order to still expose your barrel to fire, what's under the barrel has to tilt outwards in the opposite direction. It's that simple. If you think that tilting your hopper cures everything, you've obviously never played on a see-saw. Or maybe you played by yourself on one and never fully understood the thing.

For all other profiles, say, your side profile while running or popping up over the top of the bunker (or out of a snake), no amount of tilt is going to help you, unless you completely tilt it 90 degrees, in which case you probably won't get any paint feeding.

As far as reload speed goes, here's an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkFE5DpScpw

Reload speed is *fast*. And those are not the fastest reloads; if you practice that time will come down. There are also other tricks, like what I call an "anticipatory reload" which really cuts the actual "paintless" time substantially. It's about how motivated you truly are to be a good player, not how bad the system is.

When I disengage that pod, I still have 1-2 shots in the line (more if you feed from a vertical feed neck to get a few more to drop) to fend off someone trying to bunker me, and by the way I'm reloading with my gun up and my face looking forward, and anyone trying to bunker me is going to see that. When was the last time you bunkered someone knowing full well their gun was pointed at you and they were looking straight at you?


A few weeks ago, a bunkering incident did actually happen with me. In the middle of a game, I heard the telltale pop of a hopper lid, so I decided to pop out and bunker the guy. The problem was... I had forgotten to check if my pod was empty. Not only had I drained the pod -- I had unconsciously drained the entire line of balls in the hose as well (so much for not having any shots when the pod's empty). So I run out, have the guy dead in my sights while his hopper's open, and... nothing comes out of the gun. I try to rock and cock. Nothing comes out still. Mind you he had already started his reload process before I had even started to run at his bunker, so he had a head start on me.

I decided a retreat was in order. I ran back to my bunker. While on the run, before even getting back to my bunker, I disengaged my pod and dropped it. I got behind my bunker, put the new one in and turned around just in time to catch him counter-bunkering me.

We mutual'd, but had that been a conventional loader, I would not have been ready to catch him coming at me.

[drg]

Speaking of FUD ...


Yes, tilting a conventional hopper can help... in that one instance where you're sitting behind a Dorito. The problem is your marker is more than just your hopper, and certainly everything below it, including your arm, counts. I.e. when you tilt your HOPPER inwards, in order to still expose your barrel to fire, what's under the barrel has to tilt outwards in the opposite direction. It's that simple. If you think that tilting your hopper cures everything, you've obviously never played on a see-saw. Or maybe you played by yourself on one and never fully understood the thing.

If your arm sticks out while angling your hopper, your gun is set up wrong. The whole point is to keep your arm in AND your hopper in, and it works on any bunker with a straight vertical edge as well (which covers pretty much all other bunkers).


For all other profiles, say, your side profile while running or popping up over the top of the bunker (or out of a snake), no amount of tilt is going to help you, unless you completely tilt it 90 degrees, in which case you probably won't get any paint feeding.

A true force feed hopper such as a halo can feed the preload paint upside-down if need be.

[GoatBoy]

Speaking of FUD ...
If your arm sticks out while angling your hopper, your gun is set up wrong. The whole point is to keep your arm in AND your hopper in, and it works on any bunker with a straight vertical edge as well (which covers pretty much all other bunkers).



That's pretty interesting. I'm kind of assuming you're the kid that tried to play on the see-saw alone.

Here's a picture of an example gun sticking out the side of a bunker. (Red is bunker, green is tank, blue is grip/foregrip, gray is barrel, black is hopper).

http://lh6.ggpht.com/goatzilla/SG3KfvnKsxI/AAAAAAAAB3Y/W5UyrooO09s/s400/gunvert.jpg

Here is the gun rotated exactly 45 degrees as specified by the earlier poster. Note that in order for the gun to still fire, the barrel needs to still clear the bunker, so that's where the rotation point is.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/goatzilla/SG3KfhPmQLI/AAAAAAAAB3g/pXWcd3tW-RM/s400/guntilted.jpg

What gun configuration allows you to tilt your gun to hide your hopper, but not expose your grip/air tank, and thus the hand and arm holding onto them?




A true force feed hopper such as a halo can feed the preload paint upside-down if need be.


Really?

[Toll]

It can, though it'll be maybe 1-2 balls using a standard halo.

When I tilt in I tend to "work the bunker" more than I actually rotate, in some cases nothing is showing save for my barrel and mask, though thats a pretty deflated bunker

45 degrees being from basically the bottom of the frame, rather than the barrel

[GoatBoy]

It can, though it'll be maybe 1-2 balls using a standard halo.

When I tilt in I tend to "work the bunker" more than I actually rotate, in some cases nothing is showing save for my barrel and mask, though thats a pretty deflated bunker

45 degrees being from basically the bottom of the frame, rather than the barrel

And what's to prevent you from just working that same deflated bunker without tilting at all in the first place? If the bunker is so deflated as to allow you to hide everything below the barrel as it's tilted out, you might as well just leave the gun vertical and work the bunker that way.


Come on guys, this isn't that hard.


Bust out your favorite drawing program and just show everyone what you're talking about.

[Toll]

Depends on what the bunker is and where I am shooting/know who's shooting at me.

If I am shooting out of the right side of a stand up at a target on the right tape (lets say far right tape) I am putting my playing loose and using my barrel to nudge the bunker while tilting . I use a 14 in barrel (grows on you) and it gives me alot of room to be doing that. On a bunker that is fully inflated (over inflated if you will) that changes and I'd be playing tighter with my tank a little higher up on my shoulder to keep that a bit closer.

I do it out of the fact I hate cleaning my hopper and my elbow pads grace me with many a bounce. The only time I could see a warp/q being a deciding factor would be when you are in the front and you are always, always in the snake.

[drg]

There's a couple things wrong and forgotten about your example. First, that is a highly exaggerated tilt for a vertical bunker. Second, and perhaps more important, your example leaves out the important fact that there is a person behind the marker.

Add the person in and suddenly the tilt starts making more sense:

http://www.hawaiipb.com/stuff/tilt1.jpg

BUT ... the situation described by this image is actually not very accurate. You would never be shooting, or would never want to be shooting at a guy who is basically posted up dead-on at you like this. You're either going to be off-axis or he's going to be snapping with you, so there's a good chance he is going to look more like this:

http://www.hawaiipb.com/stuff/tilt2.jpg

THEN add in the fact that in most instances on a paintball field, your shot is obstructed by at least one intervening bunker (not the least of which is the bunker you are behind at the moment), and in many situations the tilt starts making a pretty big difference:

http://www.hawaiipb.com/stuff/tilt3.jpg

Add in the fact that you can catch way more bounces off an elbow pad than a hopper, and yeah there is plenty of reason to tilt in various situations, in more than just doritos.

[Bang and Breach]

Excluding the first post, every post in this thread should have contained the word, 'NO'.


Also:

NO.

[GoatBoy]

Uhm, are you actually trying to prove what I'm saying is right? Because that's what your first three pictures actually do, and everyone can see it.

If the tank and grip tilt out, they tilt out. Your original premise was that they don't tilt out, and that it's a problem of... what was your wording... ah yes, "gun is set up wrong." You have so far not proved this premise. You have not redrawn the gun setup -- you are using the one that I have originally envisioned, so either my gun setup was wrong, or your argument was wrong. Furthermore, you've added a user behind the gun, but you have yet to add the arm and the hand holding the gun back in.

Your initial premise was simply, physically wrong, and any further argument you try to make to shore it up is necessarily going to be wrong.



Your last two pictures are just trying really hard to literally hide the fact that your initial premise was wrong behind a new yellow bunker.

We're talking about tournament ball, so the instances of something like that happening are going to be either the snake, or that horizontal bunker is located further forward of the standup bunker.

Just because you do not have a clear line of sight to see the tank sticking out doesn't mean it's NOT THERE. The tank and grip and hand and arm are STILL THERE. An experienced player will KNOW they're still there because they KNOW that the guy's probably doing the tilt, and that he is probably trying to hide his hopper.

Paintballs are not lasers. They drop in flight. That yellow bunker out in the middle of the field? That's false protection. You send paint just over the bunker, and it will drop and hit something below it.

As far as the snake example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcAL5f9MGlY

I hit tournament players with that shot all the time.


And now you're adding stuff about bounces off elbows and arms and stuff that wasn't supposed to be sticking out in the first place according to your original premise.

[drg]

Uhm, are you actually trying to prove what I'm saying is right? Because that's what your first three pictures actually do, and everyone can see it.

If the tank and grip tilt out, they tilt out. Your original premise was that they don't tilt out, and that it's a problem of... what was your wording... ah yes, "gun is set up wrong." You have so far not proved this premise. You have not redrawn the gun setup -- you are using the one that I have originally envisioned, so either my gun setup was wrong, or your argument was wrong. Furthermore, you've added a user behind the gun, but you have yet to add the arm and the hand holding the gun back in.

I didn't say tank and grip. I said ARM. Your ARM sticks no further out when tilting than when not tilting, if you are doing it right and if your gun is set up right. Notice the body in the images (which represents the extent of the shooter's body, arm, everything -- your elbow should not be outside your shoulder) does not change dimensions at all. The only thing that happens is the hopper reduces its profile.

I worked within the confines of your rather simplistic example, and tried to illustrate why, in realistic situations, tilting does help. Landmarking or arcing is a completely independent issue -- a red herring here.

But I guess ultimately, when you watch tournaments you will notice two things -- people tilt their loaders a lot, and very few people use qloaders, warps or any of that. That speaks for itself, really.

I do not know what that video is supposed to prove. When he was tilting his loader, he was basically unhittable. When he changed positions, his elbow came up and got tagged.

[mostpeople]

q-loader = no

[punkncat]

You have been playing tourney ball for the last eight years with a warp setup?

I commend you. I tried a couple of years ago to use a warped emag setup for the CFOA and got my butt handed to me. Not only would it not keep up on hard strings with the 15 bps ramping of the time...I did not have a big cell mod, or Xmod....but was having one heck of a time when I was forced to shoot off handed. Everything was good downfield and on the right side, but let someone run up on you far right, or sustain a "firefight" on the left and it just became more trouble than it was worth.

[snoopay700]

You know, the most interesting thing about that video is he was an honest player, i mean i didn't realize that he got hit on his hopper and he called himself out anyway.

[drg]

You know, the most interesting thing about that video is he was an honest player, i mean i didn't realize that he got hit on his hopper and he called himself out anyway.

Looked like an arm shot to me, how can you tell he got hit on the hopper?

[snoopay700]

Looked like an arm shot to me, how can you tell he got hit on the hopper?
It looked like he looked down at his gun then when he saw it he got mad and went out. Could have been an arm too, just looked like he was looking at his gun to me. The point was it wasn't clear he was hit, and i know quite a few people who would have just kept playing.

EDIT: I just saw it again and saw that he does look at his arm, my mistake.

[drg]

It looked like he looked down at his gun then when he saw it he got mad and went out. Could have been an arm too, just looked like he was looking at his gun to me. The point was it wasn't clear he was hit, and i know quite a few people who would have just kept playing.

EDIT: I just saw it again and saw that he does look at his arm, my mistake.

Well either way, it doesn't make sense as an example in this thread.

[Hgblues]

You have been playing tourney ball for the last eight years with a warp setup?

I commend you. I tried a couple of years ago to use a warped emag setup for the CFOA and got my butt handed to me. Not only would it not keep up on hard strings with the 15 bps ramping of the time...I did not have a big cell mod, or Xmod....but was having one heck of a time when I was forced to shoot off handed. Everything was good downfield and on the right side, but let someone run up on you far right, or sustain a "firefight" on the left and it just became more trouble than it was worth.



My team won the CFOA series last year, winning 2 events at Rock Hill. I had my warp on my Alias. I played 1 tournament in the past 8 years with a hopper on top, and that was this year when I was building my EP mag that wasnt ready yet. I dont intend on ever playing with a hopper on top again. :ninja: You dont shoot offhanded with a warp, you just roll it over. Most tourney players won't make the adjustments to use the warp effectively.

[GoatBoy]

I didn't say tank and grip. I said ARM. Your ARM sticks no further out when tilting than when not tilting, if you are doing it right and if your gun is set up right. Notice the body in the images (which represents the extent of the shooter's body, arm, everything -- your elbow should not be outside your shoulder) does not change dimensions at all. The only thing that happens is the hopper reduces its profile.

Please provide a photo of this. Get yourself up against a wall in your home, pop your barrel out, tilt the hopper in, and then take a photo from the front to examine the profile. I will do the same with my Q-loaded example, and we'll just superimpose the two on top of each other. You might also want to put something in the barrel that the camera can see so we can verify that you are indeed pointing the gun right at the camera so we can get a true profile. Maybe a piece of paper will reflect enough if you're using a flash.



I do not know what that video is supposed to prove. When he was tilting his loader, he was basically unhittable. When he changed positions, his elbow came up and got tagged.

You tried to hide the portion of the marker/arm/hand/grip/tank which inevitably pops out when you tilt the hopper inwards behind a horizontal bunker.

Paintballs drop in flight.

They can drop behind horizontal bunkers, like the one in that clip. He was not above the bunker when I hit him.

[GoatBoy]

My team won the CFOA series last year, winning 2 events at Rock Hill. I had my warp on my Alias. I played 1 tournament in the past 8 years with a hopper on top, and that was this year when I was building my EP mag that wasnt ready yet. I dont intend on ever playing with a hopper on top again. :ninja: You dont shoot offhanded with a warp, you just roll it over. Most tourney players won't make the adjustments to use the warp effectively.

Since you're already playing with a warp then you already apparently will understand more about marker and body geometries than the others.

I honestly think the deciding factors for you will be the rules governing the pods, and how much paint you typically use. You should look into those first, because most of the rest of the obvious and pedantic stuff going on in this thread probably isn't going to be of any interest to you.

[punkncat]

You dont shoot offhanded with a warp, you just roll it over. Most tourney players won't make the adjustments to use the warp effectively.


Oh belive me, I know. It just sucked to me that when you had to sustain shooting rolled over like that you always had to remember to hit the "priming" button with a quick twist upward of the hopper to keep paint feeding.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/259/259802/pages/1029938/PaintballPics002(Small).jpg
The one I played with for about six months and practiced for using in the CFOA

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/259/259802/pages/1029940/warppics005(Small).jpg
The first one I built and used about four or five months before converting over to the Emag.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/259/259802/pages/1029940/WarpedmagV2001(Small).jpg
The one I built after the Emag before I decided to be done with them.

Neat idea, but just not my cup of tea for competative play.

:cheers:

[drg]

Please provide a photo of this. Get yourself up against a wall in your home, pop your barrel out, tilt the hopper in, and then take a photo from the front to examine the profile. I will do the same with my Q-loaded example, and we'll just superimpose the two on top of each other. You might also want to put something in the barrel that the camera can see so we can verify that you are indeed pointing the gun right at the camera so we can get a true profile. Maybe a piece of paper will reflect enough if you're using a flash.

What does the Q-loader have to do with it? It's another red herring. The assertion in question is whether doritos are the only bunker it makes sense to tilt hoppers in.



Paintballs drop in flight.

They can drop behind horizontal bunkers, like the one in that clip. He was not above the bunker when I hit him.

Yes, everyone with a little bit of play experience knows this. The point is the video does not illustrate anything you are saying about tilting hoppers, if anything tilting the hopper helped this player. He was shot while he was shifting positions, and no matter what loader setup he was using, he would have been hit just the same in that situation.

[russc]

Why not just make a bracket for a hopper without the Warp? Most forcefeed hoppers can handle the push up against gravity, as evidenced by the box mag mods starting to come out.

[GoatBoy]

OK, let's get back to basics.




If your arm sticks out while angling your hopper, your gun is set up wrong. The whole point is to keep your arm in AND your hopper in, and it works on any bunker with a straight vertical edge as well (which covers pretty much all other bunkers).

Please provide an example of a gun that is not "set up wrong". Photo would be great. Again, I would like to see a straight vertical edge where you are tilting your hopper in while still exposed for shooting and you're not consequently popping your arm/hand out.

A simple photo would pretty much do it. Make sure to put something in the chamber that's visible to the camera.




A true force feed hopper such as a halo can feed the preload paint upside-down if need be.

Any Halo, or are you referring to a specific version?

[drg]

Please provide an example of a gun that is not "set up wrong". Photo would be great. Again, I would like to see a straight vertical edge where you are tilting your hopper in while still exposed for shooting and you're not consequently popping your arm/hand out.

A simple photo would pretty much do it. Make sure to put something in the chamber that's visible to the camera.

Nah, not going to bother. You clearly have your opinion and no photo is going to show much different from what was already presented using your crude paint drawing, just on an even tighter scale (i.e. hand positions really only vary by maybe an inch tops). Again the hands do not travel outside of the shoulder's profile.

A properly set up gun is one that allows tilting of the loader without causing horizontal displacement of the wrist. It varies with personal preference and anatomy but in general it places the neck of the air tank just behind and below the gripframe (allowing the wrist to wrap around it).


Any Halo, or are you referring to a specific version?

Halo B or later I would guess, anything that gets spring preload. As the previous poster said, it's not a heck of a lot of balls that get preload, but it will load at least one and at 90 degrees it loads fairly well actually (esp if tilted I believe to the right side).

[Hgblues]

No hopper can push paint through a hose like the warp can. That's been posted in other threads. Yes, I've used the warp long enough to know how the angles are affected, and anyone that thinks they can play just as tight with a hopper on top of the gun, is just plain wrong. So all of those pictures are pretty much irrelevant to me.

It looks like the only issue at this point is only having 100 round pods. That's just not enough paint in the gun. The video looks like you can reload a pod fast enough but I wouldn't want to be caught anywhere on the field with only 100 rounds max in my gun in a ramp event.


thanks for all the input guys.

[paint magnet]

Back to the Q-loader issue:

In my experience, the Q-loader is way more of a hassle than it's worth. For rec or scenario play, maybe. But in a tournament environment, losing the ability to shoot while reloading and only having a 100 ball capacity just won't cut it. That's not to mention the fact that it's unrealistic to put pods back in your pack during a game, and who wants to dig the mud out of their Q-pod after tossing it?

The pods also take way too much time to reload. If you shot 5 pods a game (500 rounds, a very conservative estimate) and it took you 3 minutes to load each one, that's an extra 15 minutes of prep time between games. Don't forget that they're also a lot harder to clean than a hopper should you have a ball break inside of one.

So unless you have vast financial resources and can afford 50 Q-pods and paying someone to load them for you, I would say no.

[punkncat]

It sounds to me like since you are so used to the warp and know it so well that simply sticking with it would be the way to go.

[GoatBoy]

Nah, not going to bother. You clearly have your opinion and no photo is going to show much different from what was already presented using your crude paint drawing, just on an even tighter scale (i.e. hand positions really only vary by maybe an inch tops). Again the hands do not travel outside of the shoulder's profile.


Well, yeah, can you blame me if my "opinion" seems to be based on geometry, physics, and obvious anatomy?

Come now, we're all here to learn from your example.



A properly set up gun is one that allows tilting of the loader without causing horizontal displacement of the wrist. It varies with personal preference and anatomy but in general it places the neck of the air tank just behind and below the gripframe (allowing the wrist to wrap around it).

OK, well, if you're not going to step up and play ball, let's take a look at some examples. Here are some tournament pics from Warpig; hope they don't mind me linking to them. (For educational purposes, of course.)

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tournament/nppl/2006/sd/inline1.jpg

That gun is in a vertical position; it's not even tilted. Note the relative positions:


Barrel is outside the bunker (because it's shooting)
Shoulder is inside the air tank
The grip is under the barrel, which is outside the bunker... therefore the hand holding the grip is automatically outside the bunker
The arm which is connected to the hand is outside the tank. The tank is outside the barrel, and outside the shoulder, and we come to the conclusion that it's outside the bunker as well.


Here's a tilted example, albeit in front of a sloped bunker:

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tournament/nppl/2006/tampa/inline3.jpg


Barrel is outside the bunker (because it's shooting)
Shoulder is inside the air tank
The grip is under the barrel, which is outside the bunker... therefore the hand holding the grip is automatically outside the bunker
The arm which is connected to the hand is outside the tank (or at the very least, the wrist is outside the tank, and as far as I know, at least part of the arm is connected to the wrist on most humans). It's sloped downward, and with the aid of the slope of the bunker, it might be hidden. However, if that were a vertical bunker...


Here's one that only has a slight tilt:

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tournament/nppl/2006/huntington/inline4.jpg


Barrel is outside the bunker (because it's shooting)
Shoulder is inside the air tank; possibly in line
The grip is under the barrel, which is outside the bunker... therefore the hand holding the grip is automatically outside the bunker by default.
The arm which is connected to the hand is outside the tank. The tank is outside the barrel, and outside the shoulder, and we come to the conclusion that it's outside the bunker as well.


Here's one of the advertisements with Ollie Lang in it:

http://hostilitypb.com/banner-ollie-lang.jpg

These pics look slightly different. We don't see a bunker, but let's imagine a vertical bunker in front of him.


Barrel is outside the bunker (because it's shooting)
Shoulder looks in line with the air tank*
The grip is under the barrel, which is outside the bunker... therefore the hand holding the grip is automatically outside the bunker by default.
The arm which is connected to the hand is outside the tank. Etc. etc.



It seems my "opinion" not only seems to bear logical, physical validity, but it also seems to have an empirical basis as well.

So, once again, I implore you to make a photo of your "gun setup", in a pose, to show us how it's done.

[GoatBoy]

Back to the Q-loader issue:

In my experience, the Q-loader is way more of a hassle than it's worth. For rec or scenario play, maybe. But in a tournament environment, losing the ability to shoot while reloading and only having a 100 ball capacity just won't cut it. That's not to mention the fact that it's unrealistic to put pods back in your pack during a game, and who wants to dig the mud out of their Q-pod after tossing it?

The pods also take way too much time to reload. If you shot 5 pods a game (500 rounds, a very conservative estimate) and it took you 3 minutes to load each one, that's an extra 15 minutes of prep time between games. Don't forget that they're also a lot harder to clean than a hopper should you have a ball break inside of one.

So unless you have vast financial resources and can afford 50 Q-pods and paying someone to load them for you, I would say no.

3 minutes to load a q-pod?

I think you're off by a factor of 6 or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcvIMxSF9rE

It takes about 20 seconds from the time I start cranking to the time the pod is full, and that includes reaching up and turning on the Viewloader, which I forgot to do. There are no skips in the loading, and I'm not even rushing it.

Have you ever literally timed how long it takes to actually fill a normal 140 round pod? And by that I mean, really fill it to capacity, not just a sloppy fill.

I agree that it's a pain in the *** to put the pod back into your pack, but that's more of a function of the tournament rules than anything else.

I also have the solution for not digging the mud out of your pod after tossing it: don't toss your pod. Just drop it. No need for theatrics. Just let it fall to the ground right in front of you. Also, it's much easier to clean the end caps where you might get mud on the new pods, as you can pull them without losing your prewinds.

I've also never had anything break inside my pod that I can recall. When the pod isn't on the gun, then coil isn't engaged and the paintballs aren't feeling any pressure. Maybe if you get shot on the pack it might happen.

[drg]

Well, yeah, can you blame me if my "opinion" seems to be based on geometry, physics, and obvious anatomy?

For someone who seems to have such a firm grasp on anatomy, it's odd that you continue to miss what I said in my very first response to your diagram -- that the fact there is a person behind the marker renders the minimal change in wrist position meaningless, especially compared to the value of moving the hopper out of the line of fire.

Notice that in none of the images posted does the shooter's profile increase horizontally due to tilting the hopper. That is the whole point of doing it and setting up the gun to do it properly. The main thing is the arm is not forced outwards by the tank, as happens with a long or tall drop forward.

[paint magnet]

3 minutes to load a q-pod?

I think you're off by a factor of 6 or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcvIMxSF9rE

It takes about 20 seconds from the time I start cranking to the time the pod is full, and that includes reaching up and turning on the Viewloader, which I forgot to do. There are no skips in the loading, and I'm not even rushing it.

Have you ever literally timed how long it takes to actually fill a normal 140 round pod? And by that I mean, really fill it to capacity, not just a sloppy fill.

I agree that it's a pain in the *** to put the pod back into your pack, but that's more of a function of the tournament rules than anything else.

I also have the solution for not digging the mud out of your pod after tossing it: don't toss your pod. Just drop it. No need for theatrics. Just let it fall to the ground right in front of you. Also, it's much easier to clean the end caps where you might get mud on the new pods, as you can pull them without losing your prewinds.

I've also never had anything break inside my pod that I can recall. When the pod isn't on the gun, then coil isn't engaged and the paintballs aren't feeling any pressure. Maybe if you get shot on the pack it might happen.

Putting the pod back in the pack increases your reloading time, unless you want to shoot one-handed. Even if you drop it, you risk getting debris (grass, dirt, paint splatter, whatever) inside the pod and having to clean it. I have not seen the new pods, so I can't comment on cleaning them.

Breaking paint is not usually the pod's fault, but if it does happen due to a hard slide, smacking a bunker, or taking a hit, then that pod is useless until you can devote the time to take it apart and clean it.

Yes, you can fill them faster if you have a permanent setup with a hopper anchored to the wall, but that's more stuff to keep up with at a tourney. It takes me all of 3 seconds to properly fill a 140 round pod: open pod lid, insert into bag of paint, hold bag around mouth of pod with other hand, invert, and you're done.

Plus, what if you run out of paint during a game? Unless all your teammates have Q-loaders, none of them can toss you a pod of paint, and vice versa.

[billmi]

Notice that in none of the images posted does the shooter's profile increase horizontally due to tilting the hopper. That is the whole point of doing it and setting up the gun to do it properly. The main thing is the arm is not forced outwards by the tank, as happens with a long or tall drop forward.

I'm guessing not many here remember the days when remotes were popular among pro players.

When folks didn't have a tank hanging off the bottom of their marker, and were trying to tighten their profile against a tree (an old-school bunker) they didn't stick out their arm and shoulder the way folks do now into that area where the tank is going during a tilt.

So yes, the tank isn't increasing the profile in that diagram, but if the tank wasn't there, the player (if they were thinking about what they were doing) wouldn't position their body there either.

No matter how you slice it - if you've got a hopper on top, and a tank on the bottom - and your bunker has a straight edge (even if it's diagnoal like on a dorito) tilring the top in is going to force the bottom out, and vise versa. The only way around it is to change the location of the tank and or hopper relative to the gun.

Of course those players back in the days when remotes were still hip didn't have to tilt, either, because centerfeed wasn't hip yet. Some freaking genius with the initials TK figured out that not only did a powerfeed keep blowback from bobleing paint up into your marker, but if you set up the powerfeed to put the hopper to the left side of your marker, the hopper stayed tucked behind cover when you leaned out to the right.

The toughest thing for me to learn with the Warp or Q was new body positioning - I took for granted where my big-old noggin could be, because that space alaready has a hopper in it. Get the hopper down, or gone, and suddenly my head is sticking out making my silouhette bigger than it needs to be. Had to learn to duck down more to really take advantage of the hopperless profile.

[Beemer]

No hopper can push paint through a hose like the warp can. That's been posted in other threads. Yes, I've used the warp long enough to know how the angles are affected, and anyone that thinks they can play just as tight with a hopper on top of the gun, is just plain wrong.

But they wont admit it.



Since you're already playing with a warp then you already apparently will understand more about marker and body geometries than the others.

Ya the others just need to be actors I guess.



I dont intend on ever playing with a hopper on top again. :ninja: You dont shoot offhanded with a warp, you just roll it over. Most tourney players won't make the adjustments to use the warp effectively.

I havent played with hopper on top since the warp came out and dont plan on it. Funny thing when the warp first came out it was banned on the tourny scene. :nono: :spit_take Know why???

Its ok Punkncat we know you are no actor. :argh:



I'm guessing not many here remember the days when remotes were popular among pro players.
Of course those players back in the days when remotes were still hip didn't have to tilt, either, because centerfeed wasn't hip yet.

I remember. Is centerfeed hip now? No one told me. Did I miss or not get the memo. :sleeping: :cheers:


Paintball players should take an acting class........ :rofl: :spit_take

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/TomKayeWarpLesson.wmv TomKayeWarpLesson 4.8Meg, two minutes


I wish all paintball players could be actors :argh:

[drg]

I'm guessing not many here remember the days when remotes were popular among pro players.

When folks didn't have a tank hanging off the bottom of their marker, and were trying to tighten their profile against a tree (an old-school bunker) they didn't stick out their arm and shoulder the way folks do now into that area where the tank is going during a tilt.

So yes, the tank isn't increasing the profile in that diagram, but if the tank wasn't there, the player (if they were thinking about what they were doing) wouldn't position their body there either.

No matter how you slice it - if you've got a hopper on top, and a tank on the bottom - and your bunker has a straight edge (even if it's diagnoal like on a dorito) tilring the top in is going to force the bottom out, and vise versa. The only way around it is to change the location of the tank and or hopper relative to the gun.

Of course those players back in the days when remotes were still hip didn't have to tilt, either, because centerfeed wasn't hip yet. Some freaking genius with the initials TK figured out that not only did a powerfeed keep blowback from bobleing paint up into your marker, but if you set up the powerfeed to put the hopper to the left side of your marker, the hopper stayed tucked behind cover when you leaned out to the right.

The toughest thing for me to learn with the Warp or Q was new body positioning - I took for granted where my big-old noggin could be, because that space alaready has a hopper in it. Get the hopper down, or gone, and suddenly my head is sticking out making my silouhette bigger than it needs to be. Had to learn to duck down more to really take advantage of the hopperless profile.

Yes, they were once popular but fell out of vogue for many reasons. The game has changed a LOT since those days. Having played since those days (and having used a remote back in the day).

[JesseB]

LOL @ Goatboy for getting all up in arms about a qloader....


Tilting works well for reducing profile and if you can keep tight with your elbow in a vertical position iyour profile is almost as small as a warped or qloaded gun. The little advantage that a q or warp does make is not worth sacrificing offhand shooting and offhand profile. plus you still have your face behind the gun and there is nothing that can be done about that.

the only thing a warp ever did for me is got me shot in the face more since there was nothing there to take the shot.

It does take longer to load them than a normal pod... I can do a full case of paint with a pod filler before you load 5 of those bad boys. they are expensive, sensitive to the elements, and too small of capacity.

I don't think it would be practical for tournament play unless it was a pump tourney.

They are great at what they do but what they do just doesn't meet my expectations for tournament gear. I would rather be able to shoot while loading, shoot offhanded, and leave my pods around without worrying about someone shooting them or getting dirt in them.

[MoeMag]

No.

[GoatBoy]

Putting the pod back in the pack increases your reloading time, unless you want to shoot one-handed.

I don't disagree with the fact that putting the pod back in the pack increases the reload time. Again, that is more of a comment on the rules of the field than anything else.

However, since you brought it up, you realize that the whole "I want to be able to shoot while reloading" is ... one handed shooting. So if you do stay true to your "I want to be able to shoot while reloading"... you are... going to be shooting one handed.

So to sum up your argument: I don't want to shoot one handed while reloading, but I like reloading a conventional hopper because it lets me shoot one handed while reloading. Hello?

I think I see how this game works now.



Even if you drop it, you risk getting debris (grass, dirt, paint splatter, whatever) inside the pod and having to clean it. I have not seen the new pods, so I can't comment on cleaning them.

Breaking paint is not usually the pod's fault, but if it does happen due to a hard slide, smacking a bunker, or taking a hit, then that pod is useless until you can devote the time to take it apart and clean it.

And what happens if the exact same thing happens with a conventional pod?

With a conventional pod, that is useless until you can devote the time to take it apart and clean it.

You take it back after the game and you clean it, either case.


Yes, you can fill them faster if you have a permanent setup with a hopper anchored to the wall, but that's more stuff to keep up with at a tourney.

I really kind of miss the good old days of paintball where you would see people being creative and trying out different stuff. Nowadays, if it's not sitting in a blister pack on a Walmart shelf, then it's not ... "viable".

I can easily waste your 3 minute estimate of a q-loader pod, and I can do it anywhere there is a TABLE with a minimum amount of components. You tournament guys have tables, right?

Or wait, forget that, I can do it with a CHAIR. I can hang it off the back of a chair and it will still work. Forget the table.

Wait, what do I need a chair for? I can just hang it off the back of another teammate while he's filling his pods. We can have kind of a reload train party!

The components that make up the reloading process are: a flexible tube (which I would carry to cannibalize for spares anyways), a reload socket, maybe an elbow, and a conventional hopper (which I would keep around as a spare in case the q-loader system completely died anyways), and some small device (in my case, two reusable zip-ties, or a coat hanger, or a bungie cord, or a ... ) to hold the thing to SOMETHING. Half of the system is made up of spares or stuff I would want to have on hand anyways. (You do carry a spare hopper, don't you? Or is that too much stuff to keep up with?)

This is an easily, realistically solvable problem. Move on.


It takes me all of 3 seconds to properly fill a 140 round pod: open pod lid, insert into bag of paint, hold bag around mouth of pod with other hand, invert, and you're done.

Let's see a video. What you're describing is either not truly 3 seconds, or if it is 3 seconds, it's a sloppy pod fill, and that has its own consequences. You were already massively, provably wrong on the q-pod reload speed, and I'm going to say that you are massively, provably wrong on this point as well. I've watched a lot of people reload pods. I'm keen to watching all kinds of these little processes. I've done it myself for the, what, 12+ years or so of paintball prior to getting my Q-Loader. It takes longer than 3 seconds. A lot longer than you apparently realize.


Plus, what if you run out of paint during a game? Unless all your teammates have Q-loaders, none of them can toss you a pod of paint, and vice versa.

Aren't most really competitive games are over before your front guys run out of paint?

Aren't most front players too spread out and too far from their backers or anyone else for that matter to make pod sharing really realistic?

Going from there: aren't most players too butter-fingered to gracefully recover a fumbled hopper that fell off their gun? Isn't the guy that's tossing you paint going to be mad that you made him shoot one-handed? Or, as a front player, are you going to run back over to his bunker, grab a pod, then run back forward?

Are you just making stuff up?

It really sounds like you are making stuff up that actually does not have either have an very easy, obvious solution, or is particularly realistic.

I could do the exact same thing you're doing and make conventional pods and hoppers sound bad as well.

Boo hoo what if you land on your pod and you break paint? That thing is useless!

What if your lid on your pod breaks? That thing will lose all your paint! Boo hoo! And then you might get dirt in there!

What if the lid on your hopper breaks? Every time you run you'll be spilling paint everywhere!

What if your halo gets dirt or debris inside of it? That thing is worthless unless you get a chance to clean it!

What if you get a ball break INSIDE your hopper itself! You tournament guys are using thin shelled paint, so you know it can happen.

What if you have an electronics malfunction due to environmental conditions and your halo stops feeding?

What if your batteries run low?

What if a wire comes loose?

What if during all that, your rip drive knob breaks?

What if your feed neck or feed tube breaks because it's having to carry all that weight on the top while you're running, jumping, diving, and "slamming really hard into bunkers"?

Basically, half the things you see in blooper videos, like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVE5eE4MVjw


I could go on and on, and I get the feeling that you could too. The difference is I can distinguish a sustainable, well thought out argument from a bad one.



I'm guessing not many here remember the days when remotes were popular among pro players.

No matter how you slice it - if you've got a hopper on top, and a tank on the bottom - and your bunker has a straight edge (even if it's diagnoal like on a dorito) tilring the top in is going to force the bottom out, and vise versa. The only way around it is to change the location of the tank and or hopper relative to the gun.

Ahh... I was wondering when you would stop by. Hi!

Yes, I remember when remotes were popular. I actually just recently sold one of my remotes. Those were... the not so good old days.

The sad part is... the milsim guys have sent marker technology back like 15+ years, because all of those guys are going BACK to remotes. These are dark times...

We went from on-gun no-drops, to remotes, back to on-gun with huge dropforwards, and then back to on-gun no-drops. It's like technology has come full circle. Makes some of us who never upgraded past the first stage kind of feel at home...

The reason I mention the drops is in light of your note... The only "drop" I have EVER used is my LX3 swivel -- in my opinion the best drop ever made (and consequently the best drop ever discontinued, never to be seen again; I'm hanging on to this one). I finally removed it from my marker last night upon receiving my y-grip. I effectively used it in sort of a no-drop configuration, but with one distinction: I used it to offset the tank to the inside. THAT is the "proper gun setup" which helps reduce arm/wrist/shoulder pop-out, and sadly, you're the first person in this thread to mention the idea of changing the relative component positions. There was also the benchmark offset cradle, but that was not quite as svelte.



LOL @ Goatboy for getting all up in arms about a qloader....

It's not about the q-loader, it's about the lies.

If you were to ask me point blank about the q-loader, my answer would basically stand as this: probably not for most tournament players. Tournament rules from what I understand would make them not feasible for anyone. Second in line is their limited paint capacity.

What I have a problem with is the outright lying, hypocrisy, and overall unevenly applied "logic". A 3 minute pod reload is an outright, provable lie.

Saying that a conventional hopper can be tilted inward and hidden without repercussions is an outright, provable lie. I can make a formal, mathematical proof for that one.

You guys might as well be saying that q-loaders are bad because they contain small demons that will magically jinx you at the worst possible moment.

I'm not going to challenge the fact that you can load paint faster with an auxiliary loading device... but I will wonder if the presence of such an auxiliary loading device will be "too much stuff to keep track of at a tournament" for players such as paint magnet.


It comes down to this: if you look at the systems (WHATEVER loader system -- halo, q-loader, warp, evlution) and find they don't meet your specifications or the way you prefer to play, fine. But don't resort to lies (and half-truths... and half-logic).

[GoatBoy]

I was about to head to bed, and then the thought occurred to me...

http://lh3.ggpht.com/goatzilla/SHcVxZ9KPYI/AAAAAAAAB7Q/5G-IGxkqsM4/s800/IMGP1649.JPG

Is the box that your paintballs came in... too much stuff to keep track of at a paintball tournament?

Like I said, I miss the good ol' days.

[drg]

You guys might as well be saying that q-loaders are bad because they contain small demons that will magically jinx you at the worst possible moment.

This one might be true! Haha
Anecdotally, though, I do notice that whenever I see the rare qloader user, he invatiably turns out to be rather noobish and near worthless on the field.

I strongly considered qloading myself when I was moving to force feed. Couldn't really think of a mounting I liked, personally.

BTW you will note that at least in my responses, I never stated or implied that a traditional hopper setup plays as tight as a qloader in any particular situation. I only replied to your equally misleading statements in response to others earlier in the thread.

[JesseB]

It's not about the q-loader, it's about the lies.

If you were to ask me point blank about the q-loader, my answer would basically stand as this: probably not for most tournament players. Tournament rules from what I understand would make them not feasible for anyone. Second in line is their limited paint capacity.

What I have a problem with is the outright lying, hypocrisy, and overall unevenly applied "logic". A 3 minute pod reload is an outright, provable lie.



Q loader practical for tourney?

Doesn't get more point blank than that Chief.


yeah whatever I have 2 bags with wheels so many guns, parts, tanks, and other stuff that the pod rocket fits in quite nicely...

Also where do you play where they count used pods as live equipment? That's lame... I am pretty sure that's not the way it works.... do you have an excerpt from a rule book somewhere?

I've seen people take 2 minutes to load a normal pod a handful of paint at a time so I have no doubt that someone could take 3 or even 5 to load a qpod... You underestimate the stupidness of some people....

[PaintballSmurf13]

I'm sure your questions have all been anwered by now, but i figure i'd throw in my 2 cents.

IMO you should just stick with the warp. qloader pods are expensive and pods take a thrashing in tourny play. and you'd only be complicating things with a qloader.

[Hgblues]

Well after reading all these posts, I think on my current gun setup I'm gonna stick with the warp. As far as the difference in opinions, I've been around long enough to know which ones are right and which ones are from speculations. I maybe interested in making a Q loader front man setup. I think that would work and I see where I could make a very light fast setup.

The thought of dropping the extra weight of the hopper and warp feed is very appealing, but at this point in my game I have to shoot too much paint. I think the biggest problem with weight in paintball gun setups is the heavy airtanks, and barring some technological break thru in air bottles, I dont see that changing any time soon.

So, thanks for all the replies, pictures, debates, and especially feedback from Qloader users that support the Qloader.

[maniacmechanic]

This one might be true! Haha
Anecdotally, though, I do notice that whenever I see the rare qloader user, he invatiably turns out to be rather noobish and near worthless on the field.

I strongly considered qloading myself when I was moving to force feed. Couldn't really think of a mounting I liked, personally.

BTW you will note that at least in my responses, I never stated or implied that a traditional hopper setup plays as tight as a qloader in any particular situation. I only replied to your equally misleading statements in response to others earlier in the thread.

drg , I resent the statement in red , anyone , anyone can fill a pod & a hopper , NOT everyone will take the time to set up a Q correctly
I.ve never seen a Q on a speedball field ( doesn't mean someone hasn't done it ) all of the people I KNOW ( 6 that I can think of ) that have Q's are dedicated to them & paintball in general & have plenty of playing time under thier belt & are good to very good players ( myself included )
I've never met a noob running a Q setup

[drg]

drg , I resent the statement in red , anyone , anyone can fill a pod & a hopper , NOT everyone will take the time to set up a Q correctly
I.ve never seen a Q on a speedball field ( doesn't mean someone hasn't done it ) all of the people I KNOW ( 6 that I can think of ) that have Q's are dedicated to them & paintball in general & have plenty of playing time under thier belt & are good to very good players ( myself included )
I've never met a noob running a Q setup

Well, just because someone is dedicated to their Q and not a noob doesn't mean they are any good. That said, it's just a personal observation, and one I've always wondered about because I see a lot of people singing their Q's praises on internet forums, yet whenever I see them in person the players they are attached to seem to fall short of expectations. I'm not sure whether there is any correlation here or not, which is why I made sure to point out that it's just anecdotal.