Do you THINK

[Beemer]

PaintBall self Governs ourselves WELL enough to not have a REAL governing body or for the Feds to not do it for us?

How are we self governing WITH OUT a REAL governing body? One set of rules, standards and SPECs or at least some serious consistency across the board. :(

Just put that reg on with LOCTITE and TOURQUE the crap out of it. It wont mater at hydro when you need to remove it and RAPE the threads on the 4500psi pressure vessel and the Reg. No universal manufactures standards and specs required here. :argh: :spit_take
Who inspects the threads on the vessel and the reg again?????

How come there is no real standard set in tourny play, World wide? Its PSP, NPPL, Mil, CFOA and Bla, Bla, Bla. Fullauto, Ramping, Semi. What a joke. Paintball got stupid. :tard:

Wanna play MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL or any other world class sport? Paintball maybe played worldwide but it is a FAR cry from World Class or a Sport. Why did the IPPA fail?

Oh wait we self goverened ourselves when all the manufactures put down some standards,[ASTM] to satisfy who? And then said oh crap we dont have to follow those its voluntary. :eek: Paintball is stupid. Know how I know? Because that is what most keep telling me. Some of those are folks at ASTM and the CPSC among others.

Some of those others were the pros that rehydroed my tanks. Folks that shoot REAL guns and never played that I took to the field to check it out and some lawyers and doctors and other folks.

Funny thing, no matter how much I hear how stupid we are, I still play. :cheers:

[punkncat]

Well I hope for the sports sake that the Feds never have to step in and govern it. It would be really nice to see a real self imposed governing body be created that would level the field and make rules and regulations consistant. One site, one set of rules for everyone involved in the game, at least on a national level.

[Chronobreak]

great post beemer

the short answer is NO

and nothing unfortunately is gonna change until there is a few more accidents or soemthing sever and some overseeing entity sees a way to stick its dirty hands into paintball and set some rules.

personaly anything other than true semi is just asking for trouble, as well as manufacturers that sell those guns with modes and fields that allow them.

tanks , dont even get me started

heck even most markers arent that safe, unesl your referring to EGos and their super safe crash frame :tard:

macroline? when did people stop using line that was stainless braided, rubber coated and nearly 1/2 "thick

we still ahvent decided on a commonly and universaly safe type of barrel plugs, some fields are plugs only, some are sleeve only, some use some sort of combo, if you ask me both are fairly unsafe or only partial solutions.

ive seen plenty of equipment made that makes me CRINGE to say the least and disgusted to be part of paintball, an example is the GEN X goggle systems which are BY FAR the most unsafe piece of safety equipment i have sen to date, there should be a calss action lawsuit against the company for endangerment. :mad: a

i could go on and on but as we have discussed here before it seems to be the consensus that its only a amtter of time before someone steps in with the rulebook.

and player education NEEDS to become the forefront of the sports image.

[MournBlade]

Locktite is at the discretion of the manufacturer and testing facility. The guy I use for hydro testing doesn't use locktite and always puts on a new o-ring after testing. If I inspect a bottle, I use one drop of blue locktite on the last two threads before the o-ring only if the regulator feels loose going on. Too much locktite can foul the safety vents in the regulator. This is why it is not used by most testers and manufacturers. All paintball regulators have these safety vents and they cannot be removed without venting all the pressure in the bottle before reaching the end of the threads. The only way a regulator is going to fly off is if the bottle suffers catastrophic failure in the neck, or if those vents are clogged with locktite. This is the reason why only qualified techs should service HPA bottles.

[BigEvil]

I need coffee. :sleeping:

[BigEvil]

PaintBall self Governs ourselves WELL enough to not have a REAL governing body or for the Feds to not do it for us?

How are we self governing WITH OUT a REAL governing body? One set of rules, standards and SPECs or at least some serious consistency across the board. :(

Paintball will never self-impose any form of binding governing body on itself. There is no reason to right now. Something like that would only happen either by gov't intervention or threat of. That would probably be after some very unfortunate or tragic occurrence which generates a lot of negative publicity.


Just put that reg on with LOCTITE and TOURQUE the crap out of it. It wont mater at hydro when you need to remove it and RAPE the threads on the 4500psi pressure vessel and the Reg. No universal manufactures standards and specs required here. :argh: :spit_take
Who inspects the threads on the vessel and the reg again?????

Isnt this the whole purpose of hydro testing? Granted, the time between testing is long, but just about any decent field is smart enough to inspect the hydro date (and hensforth the tanks) before filling. Many places put a sticker or wire tie or something on tanks to signify to the persons operating the fill stations that a tank is ok to fill.

It is not a perfect system, and I do not know the official insurance company regulations regarding this - but it apears to be enough for fields and stores to "CYA" themselves.


How come there is no real standard set in tourny play, World wide? Its PSP, NPPL, Mil, CFOA and Bla, Bla, Bla. Fullauto, Ramping, Semi. What a joke. Paintball got stupid. :tard:

Stupid is a stupid does. What is tourney ball now anyway? A bunch of industry hacks who live off the teet of their sponsors. Most I would not hire if they came into my workplace for an interview. I would not want most of these people representing my company, yet the big paintball companies fall all over themselves to throw money at them. So what does that really say about the character of those companies?

But basically, as long as tournament level paintball is nothing more than a group of self serving corporate shills and low lives we will never have an acceptable set of standards. The first one I would like imposed if I had my way would be "No cheating"



Oh wait we self goverened ourselves when all the manufactures put down some standards,[ASTM] to satisfy who? And then said oh crap we dont have to follow those its voluntary. :eek: Paintball is stupid. Know how I know? Because that is what most keep telling me. Some of those are folks at ASTM and the CPSC among others.

Of course they didn't follow their own standards. How else would you get an edge on your competition? As I stated above, it is my opinion that the only way these standards will be enforced is when the industry is forced to do so.



Funny thing, no matter how much I hear how stupid we are, I still play. :cheers:

Preaching to the choir on that one. http://www.bigevilonline.com/images/smilies/drunk.gif

[maniacmechanic]

I need coffee. :sleeping:

Glad you had your coffee :)

[ThePixelGuru]

No. The paintball industry as a whole does not (in my opinion) do an acceptable job of self-regulating. I do believe that it's possible without too much effort, but the fact that we used to have standards (ASTM) and ignored them shows that paintball companies won't voluntarily comply with them. The only way standards will be adhered to is if the government steps in and forces companies to do so. Paintball is a perfectly safe sport when played properly, but it's wishful thinking to assume that it will be played properly all the time or even enough of the time.

We can only hope that once the government steps in they won't make the regulations too ridiculous. Forcing companies to stick with ASTM standards and shoring up the rules on tank regulators would be good (and maybe a player education program), but I've heard rumblings of paintball marker licenses like firearm licenses. I guess we'll see.

[steve_81]

I don't see Paintball ever becoming self-regulated, The major companies in Paintball won't allow it.

[Spider-TW]

Even if the team owners got together and agreed to some rules, most of us are still playing the equivalent of front yard football.

The main venue for regulation (voluntary or not) would be the field owners, wouldn't it? It seems like that is the license that would appear first.

The first question is what rules do you want. The second question is how will they be enforced and how much will that cost. If we could make the rules (whatever they are) easily enforceable, they might survive.

Paintball Field Owners Organization = P FOO

[Warwitch]

This sport needs an enema.

[snoopay700]

we still ahvent decided on a commonly and universaly safe type of barrel plugs, some fields are plugs only, some are sleeve only, some use some sort of combo, if you ask me both are fairly unsafe or only partial solutions.
I was just fooling around with one of my barrel plugs and you gave me an idea for a better idea for something safe, a barrel sock that has a rubber plug inside of it, or a plastic one with no fewer than 3 o-rings, that way the plug can't get shot off and there would be more resistance so you're a hell of a lot less likely to shoot through the sock like i've seen happen. Granted this idea probably wouldn't catch on because it would be slightly tougher to put on, but it makes more sense from a safety perspective.

[Beemer]

..............tanks , dont even get me started...............

Ahh come on you know you want to. That was the point of my thread.

So Paintball just dont need or want no governing body? The fact is we DO need one. Who and why are the ones that dont want one.

I keep asking cause I dont know. Why did the IPPA fail or disband or cease to function?

How does a game like Dodge Ball[and others] have a governing body in less then ten years and after twenty plus Paint Ball does not? Ya it used to be TWO words. :ninja:

I said it was stupid in my first post cause that is what I keep hearing from folks but I never gave any reasons. Those are many, from the many different folks I have talked with.

Here is one from some folks I talked with.

Me... so ya Paint Ball yada yada.

Them...Ya that sounds good. We need to talk to your folks on the governing body to get things going.

Me...What? You dont need to talk to THEM. You cant really cause WE dont HAVE no Governing Body.

Them....Well thats pretty Stupid. How long you guys been playing again?

Me........Ok I gotta go. I will be in touch. :tard:

So, one reason Paint Ball is STUPID is cause after TWENTY something FREAKING years we still have no REAL Governing Body. :cry:

There are many more reasons on why we are stupid but you already know and or dont care.

Those other reasons range from how we use and what specs we do or dont follow on our high pressure vessels to following or not following ASTM standards.

The stupid list is Veeery long. Here is another.

Me....... to some lawyers, doctors, folks at the ASTM, CPSC and others. So whats you comment on most of us not following ASTM standards?

ALL OF THEM.......PRETTY STUPID but hey you asked. :tard:

On a side note when I first started playing[85,86] everyone said you are crazy. I would say ya but we aint stupid. WE ARE SAFE. I played with the doctors and the lawyers and the engineers and bla bla. WE WERE SMART. I remember when we converted to CA on CO2 and we had to have a tether on the line from the ASA cause we were smart in case the fitting failed. Now look what we do. Put a lever[drop] on a HPA vessel at 4500psi and go dive with it. Put PLASTIC line down stream that aint rated to 4500psi and say oh its safe. Ya right.

So lets let all the kids play cause thats where the cash is. We dont have to inform or educate
them just take the cash.

Will the LLC label matter when the crap hits the fan? :cheers:

[punkncat]

A lot of good points there.

Macroline is most def. of concern to me. Now I do use it on my LP markers, but I have to say that I wonder lots of times how much a chance I am taking with my safety. This line is not "standardized" and I see many differnt qualities of it around, ranging from really hard and brittle to very soft and pliable. Rarely does it have any sort of rating marked on it.
All the time at the field you will hear this stuff popping loose from fittings or simply rupturing. After that you basically have in the case of an LP ouput tank a 450PSI blade of air coming out of a 1/4 or less sized hole. That is most certainly enough to hurt you.

What bothers me even more is the (generally) up to 5000PSI BOMB that we are carrying around with us. With many more recent issues coming up, like the reg blowing off the top of the tank, or tank explosions. Both of which were recent stories out of Europe....
How long before we have some kid get his head blown off by an HPA tank? Or possible shrapnel or rocketing tank injuring or killing someone (else)?

As was said before....the group that constitutes paintball as a whole, players and industry as well need to get together, set up some rules...update and agree on the current ones, and put in place some real oversight before the federal govn't is forced to.

[ThePixelGuru]

I'll be the first to admit I duck and cover when I hear an air line blow out. You just never know...

I think a lot of the problem is the players. This is an expensive sport, and people cut corners. Cheap regs (fake Myth regs, anyone?), improperly user-serviced tanks (locktite in the reg vent holes et cetera), people fixing HPA leaks with oil, cheating hydro times if their field doesn't check - and that's just a start on air systems. Nevermind the fact that most little agglets couldn't give a crap if they have a barrel plug that actually stays in or a barrel sock that's properly attached or intact enough to block paintballs. And how many times have you seen someone using a cracked lens because they figure they'll just replace it at the end of the season and don't want to waste money doing it earlier?

Then you have fields and companies that cut corners. Faulty nets or barriers, poorly protected dead zones or staging areas, poorly trained fill station employees (or self-serve stations), masks that don't protect enough, loose chronograph enforcement... the list goes on and on.

Half the blame falls on the companies and field for providing this crap, but the other half falls on the players who keep shelling out money for unsafe products and to play at unsafe fields. Doing stuff right can be expensive, and it certainly is with regard to safety. Still, it has to be done, and you can bet it'll cost a lot more if the government has to step in and regulate it for us.

[custar]

For a short answer, much in paintball is as it is because we live in a capitalistic society. Anyone who has he capital can start a new league, impose a set of rules, and just start it, correct? The players can vote with their feet on whether they want to play in that league or not. The only real regulation is that of economic survival; if the rules are unsafe or unfair enough, players will go elsewhere. Markers are produced to make a profit and to avoid a personal injury or products liability lawsuit, and some are produced even below the later standard. Think about the slams SP has taken on the ROF cap on their low end Ion derivatives. In my experience, field owners permit the highest ROF allowed on their insurance policy, and that limit isn't policed consistently or accurately. You get the point by now.

So, if we have a true problem here, how can it be fixed?

custar

[Hilltop Customs]

I think were stupid because we let players(kids and adults) use HPA and oil side by side without ever educating them.


I dont really see a problem with marco line....if it fails it whips around and crap, but its not like the reg blowing off a tank as it is being filled(especially considering how crowded fill areas are sometimes and how close the person filling the tank is) Id say about the worst thing that could happen if macroline fails is the loss of an eye, thats compared to death from a tank explosion. Tank explosions also have many different ways to hurt you....the fire of the explosion, the percussion could do some serious hearing damage, and all the projectiles(pieces of the reg, tank and marker) flying around. I actually think the HPA tanks are very safe(they have to be, imagine the fill/explosion ratio) it is the uninformed users who create the danger. To completely negate that danger we could have stuck with nitrogen fills, but those are more expensive........$ matters more than safety.

As for the governing body, thats a tough one. Paintball has been evolving over the ~20 years it has been around, it may just be too difficult to keep up with the changes. Or you could say it all stems from money, a governing body costs money to run and its rules cost money to enforce, wheres the money going to come from? I'm sure players dont want to pay dues, and field owners sure dont want to share profits....tournaments ran by the governing body could be a likely source, but now your talking about creating a governing body and scheduling/running tournaments.....who wants to take on that responsibility. And finally the true downfall, how are you going to assimilate all the different leagues under your one governing body?

[punkncat]

...the fire of the explosion....


Where is the fire coming from? It's an HPA tank. :confused:

[questionful]

Where is the fire coming from? It's an HPA tank. :confused:
oil burning under extreme pressure.

[punkncat]

oil burning under extreme pressure.


Well we are considering ways the tank could explode, even though oil should not have been in there in the first place.....

[Hilltop Customs]

thats why the first line of my post was "I think were stupid because we let players(kids and adults) use HPA and oil side by side without ever educating them."

there was a tank explosion awhile back, and the guy involved got his hands burnt to all hell and there were pictures posted up showing his burns. There was also talk of tanks with plastic liners that exploded, but I think they couldnt figure out what exactly had happened. does anyone have any examples of a HPA tank failure that does not come back to oil? I havent seen any....these tanks are not brittle, they can take a pounding and the only thing that will fail is a visual tank inspection. HPA tanks are strapped to the backs of scuba divers(ok those are not all fiber wrapped) and firemen...if they had a likely chance of failure other than from misuse I dont think people would be willing to strap them to their back.

Its our practice of flash filling, and the use of oil side by side with HPA that is dangerous....not the tanks themselves, or even our physical abuse of the tanks.

I remember people being scared about the ego's and their "crash frames" because the frame could possibly snap in half and the separation could break the marcoline causing the tank and lower part of the frame to become a "projectile". Well if the frame breaks and so does the marco....the tank would lay there on the ground hissing like crazy out the marco, but it wont go flying....for the tank to go flying you need a LARGE hole for air to escape very quickly....like when a reg blows off.

[punkncat]

Missed that part. I stand corrected. Very true.

[Hilltop Customs]

my stupid use of grammer, and not proofreading what I wrote probably didnt help lol

[B-Pow]

paintball as a whole is...contradictory.

We play a game with honor and whiper slides.

We assert rules on marker capibilities (ASTM bps cap) and promptly break them...in mass produced consumer products.

we look at insurance mandated bps caps [15bps usually] at a fields that rent ions [that are 'naturally' capped at 17, and almost never adjusted down to 15]

if you mention to a suba shop owner what a flash fill is (and how that is the usual way to fill a paintball air tank)...or what your 4500psi fiber wrapped tank goes through in a day...they are supprized you are still alive.

Most of our "professionals" barely get paid, if at all, and believe they are kings of the world.

Most of our "professionals" behave in a manner unfitting of an athlete or role model, and we allow this behavior to continue...in fact the curent tourney scene we encurage poor behavior.

We allow the compaines to tell us what we want instead of the market being consumer driven.

------------------

There is a reason I do not call paintball a sport, it is a hobby...it may become a sport in my eyes when it begins to act like one.

When it's all said and done; I go out to the middle of nowhere to fling glorified gelitan balls at my friends, aquentces, and strangers. And I'm going to keep doing that, because I find it fun.

[Beemer]

As was said before....the group that constitutes paintball as a whole, players and industry as well need to get together, set up some rules...update and agree on the current ones, and put in place some real oversight before the federal govn't is forced to.

You would think. But then again that would be SMART. That wont happen because the GROUP and Paint Ball as I can prove got STUPID. How many of the smart ones have left now?


Half the blame falls on the companies and field for providing this crap, but the other half falls on the players who keep shelling out money for unsafe products and to play at unsafe fields. Doing stuff right can be expensive, and it certainly is with regard to safety. Still, it has to be done, and you can bet it'll cost a lot more WHEN the government has to step in and regulate it for us.

Well if they dont know no better and arent informed or educated what did you think would happen? Fixed a word in there.



So, if we have a true problem here, how can it be fixed?

custar

How can it, more like how will it.



I think were stupid because..........

Well you dont have to tell me. That is all I been hearing the last three years from the smart folks I talk with. It is a sad thing when you talk with a head engineer at the CPSC and express your concerns, then hear him say, ya thats pretty STUPID stuff.



paintball as a whole is...contradictory.
if you mention to a suba shop owner what a flash fill is (and how that is the usual way to fill a paintball air tank)...or what your 4500psi fiber wrapped tank goes through in a day...they are supprized you are still alive.

We allow the compaines to tell us what we want instead of the market being consumer driven.

Paint Ball as a whole is stupid. :( When I talk to the scuba guys the first thing I hear is, man you guys are stupid, someone is going to get killed. I dont mention two people already have and that was with CO2 tanks at one quarter the pressure of HPA. :eek:

Edit....This is the Paint ball field calling. We regret to inform you, two loved ones are dead because paint ball got stupid.

[ThePixelGuru]

Well if they dont know no better and arent informed or educated what did you think would happen? Fixed a word in there.
Your fix isn't really off base. I think it's unfortunate but true that your average paintballer isn't going to follow any real safety standards without someone twisting his arm, and the only one in a position to do that is Big Brother. If paintballers were willing to police themselves, we wouldn't have abandoned ASTM standards in the first place. Even after several deaths and life-changing injuries, people still don't get it. There are too many dumb people out there with the "it won't happen to me" mentality.

Granted, injuries and even deaths happen in most (if not all) sports, but the paintball industry as a whole isn't doing nearly as much as it could to prevent it.