My Paintball Science Project...Need FeedBack

[Sean Dolan]

i need some people that know about air and could help me with this project. This is my situation...

hey guys, this is for a PJAS science project in pennsylvania. This is my project and how i'm going to perform it. I would like some good/bad and helpful feedback on how i'm going to perform it or just anything that would help me in anyway for this project. Thanks

I'm going to test co2 vs. nitro and prove which one has better accurate consistant shots on the chrono.

I'm going to use a tippmann m98 all stock with 16 ounce co2 and 68/3000 nitroduck tank. Not sure what type of paintballs i'm going to use yet, but it'll probably be marbalizers, zap something like that. I'm going to borrow my fields chronograph

I will set up a garbage can down in my basement where i can shoot so there will be no temperature change. I'm going to put the co2 tank on the tippmann, load the balls, and fire say....15 slow shots on the chronograph. I will record each velocity in a notebook. Then after i'm done with the co2... i will take the co2 tank off, load more paintballs, and wait about 10 minutes. Then i will screw in the 68/3000 nitroduck tank and perform it the same way, 15 shots and record each velocity.

Thats what i'm thinking of doing. ANY BACKGROUND INFO ON AIR VS. CO2 WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

I posted this on Pbc and Pbn. Oh pbn this guy said that tom kaye would be proud of me? i love agd's work and what there about, i just thought i'd post it here also cus agd has some smart people and they could really help me out.

Thanks!!

[Cha0tic]

well, nitro will be more consistant because it is regulated. it is also more consistant because it is not effected by temperature, and does not have to change to a gas before it enters the gun.

[HoppysMag]

well you seem to know that co2 is succeptable to temp cahnges, but try to find out how much the reg on the nitro duck is putting out, cause co2 is like 750-800, im unsure how much the average nitro tank puts out. Good Luck!
wow Cha0tic we posted at like the same time with the same answer!

[Paintchucker]

One of the biggest reasons that I switched to nitrogen/ca is that it doesn't fluxuate(sp?) as much with temperature. For a second round of testing, you might want to take the experiment outside in the cold. The results should be that the CO2 should be more inconsistant, while the results of the N2/CA tank should be about the same... If you had a mag without an expansion chamber, you could really show the difference!

[SGTKennedy]

the Co2 pulls the heat from the air surrounding the tank to turn the Liquid into Vapor, it doesnt just POP turn into vapor, the HPA is all vapor (so no drastic temp changes occur.), thats why the CO2 is less consistant. and when it gets cold out, there is less heat to convert so less gets vaporized and more gets shot as liquid. the consistancy is just lack of regualation, and the fluxuations in temperature turn more or less into vapor.
Correct me if i am wrong. but thats what i figured when i was supposed to be paying attention to the Chem teacher.

[hitech]

Here are some quotes from the Automag manual about CO2:

The other problems revolve around CO2 itself. We usually think of CO2 in terms of a liquid or a gas, but in reality it also takes the form of "steam." CO2 , like water, boils when heated and becomes steam; the steam will still exist as a form of "humidity" until its temperature is above 87 degrees. Pressure changes will also cause water or CO2 to boil, but this is usually less understood by the general public. Everyday examples of water boiling caused by pressure are cavitation by boat propellers (boiling caused by low pressure) and car radiators (not boiling caused by high pressure). What does this mean to your average paintball player? Simple! When you shoot the pressure in your tank drops causing the CO2 to boil, the steam goes into your paintball marker's air chamber, you fire the paintball marker discharging the air chamber behind the ball (dropping pressure again), the steam boils into gas (steam is still a liquid and boils into 30 times its volume in gas) and the ball velocity varies. Switch tanks and you now have warm steam going into a cold paintball marker and, just like the mirror in the bathroom, you get liquid condensing in the paintball marker.

Liquid CO2 can enter the air chamber of an airgun and when expelled into the barrel behind the ball it instantly boils into gas that is many times the volume of the liquid. This causes a hotter than normal shot and, depending on the volume of liquid, can show velocity readings in excess of 350 fps. This action is known as supercharging and is extremely dangerous and should be avoided at all times. The blow- off valve will not protect against supercharging because the liquid is at the normal pressure when it is in the air chamber! To prevent supercharging follow these basic rules: 1) never shoot the paintball marker at the ground since this allows the liquid to run straight into the valve; 2) never overfill a bottle since a higher than normal liquid level will drain fluid into the valve; 3) keep your paintball marker at outside temperature because a cold valve body allows liquid to remain in its liquid state instead of boiling into gas. In addition, we have found that putting a warm bottle on a cold paintball marker causes the warm CO2 vapor to enter the air chamber where it condenses into liquid; this is identical to freezing down a 7 ounce tank before filling from the warmer 50 pound tank - avoid this.

[Sean Dolan]

Originally posted by Paintchucker
One of the biggest reasons that I switched to nitrogen/ca is that it doesn't fluxuate(sp?) as much with temperature. For a second round of testing, you might want to take the experiment outside in the cold. The results should be that the CO2 should be more inconsistant, while the results of the N2/CA tank should be about the same... If you had a mag without an expansion chamber, you could really show the difference!

yes i do have a mag without an expansion chamber. I also have a expansion chamber to put on it if i have too. The reason why i'm not using my defiant or automag is because i want to use a gun (m98) that dosen't have a regulator on the gun. What do you guys think about that? should i use a defiant or mag other than a m98 just because its regulated no matter what?

Thanks for the help guys, its gonna help me out alot

[bornl33t]

ya know, I just saw that paintball and science project together and my mind though... hmm a 4.5k tank on a ramp with a hammer..... hit it hard and watch it take off!!! That's ummm scientifically showing expanding gasses being used as propellant!! That would be sweeeeet

[SGTKennedy]

youd have to hit it pretty hard. and it would hit the wallet even harder.

[Temo Vryce]

When you're doing your firing you will want to make sure that Chorno and Marker are in the same place for each and every shot. This does make a big difference. If you can make some sort of a stand so that you can mount the chorno and Marker that would be best. That way you can run your experiment in different places with different temperatures. Good luck with your project. Please post your results for to see.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Temo Vryce
When you're doing your firing you will want to make sure that Chorno and Marker are in the same place for each and every shot.

Yep! ditto! Those are your "controls". No good scientific experiement without those. And your "variables" are the ambient temperature at test time and gas type. Be sure to state all of these things clearly. Make notes of fill on tanks at test sequences. Use lots of pictures and a good neat log book of these things. After that...its presentation. Graphs and pictures.

Make certain you have a clearly defined Hypothesis, Materials list, Methods, Results, Controls, Variables and your Conclusions should be backed up by the results and graphs.

[i-luv-my-rt]

I would use the defiant. Because it has the secondary reg.

This takes out the other variable of "But the N2 tank has a built in reg, the CO2 tank doesnt".

This way the CO2 and n2 have a fair chance b/c both will be regulated anyways. This is just my opinion i might be wrong.

[SGTKennedy]

the best way to do it would be with one of those old tanks with the reverse threads that didnt come with a reg, you bought the reg elsewhere. (not real sure they exsisted.. but i remember an ad or something about them a few years ago.) then use the same reg on CO2 and HPA. no double regulation. the Regulation could be a Control also.

Another thought. Try doing several different sets of shots.... 15 slow. 15 fast. different angles and such. gives you more information to work with.

[Sean Dolan]

thanks guys, your help is greatly appreciated and it will go into writing my speech. but i'd really like rob or tom to check this out and see what they think