Do barrel "inserts" work?

[xero28]

When I say "inserts", I mean to include different size barrel backs (sly, pipes, etc) as well. I mean, if you have a 2 piece barrel, and just the back end of it is matched correctly to your paint, won't the paint get messed up while going through the second half? I've never used a kit before, seen them used, and of course peole swear by them. But is it really worth it buying a $140-$200 kit when you can just get three or four decent barrels with different bore sizes? I saw a Un1tek (I think that's what it was) kit on PBN for sale where there is a single back piece and all of the "inserts" are simply various size barrels. I guess this would be the same as buying a bunch of different bore-sized barrels? I would like to hear what you guys think, so please chime in with your opinions, experience, suggestions, etc. Thanks.

[tech-chan]

I swear by three 14" CP one-peice barrels. One for each major bore size: .685 .689 .693

I have never gotten along with two-peices, personally, and will never use one.

And I've never gotten better accuracy.

[MoeMag]

I think they work.

but moreover, I think good paint is the real trick.

I will stand by my dye .688 SS boomstick with quality paint any time tho.

[cockerpunk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpUTWDY5NFE

stay tuned for the up coming barrel break test, should be out by late this week.

[BigEvil]

I have found that a few different sizes work very well. More than 3 or 4 arent really needed IMO. I find myself using the same ones over and over again, and the small differences in bore size up or down doesnt make all that drastic a difference.

[punkncat]

The only markers I will use "sizers" on are closed bolt in order to keep the balls from rolling out the barrel. Otherwise I just use a large bore size like a .691+

[MANN]

I have found that a few different sizes work very well. More than 3 or 4 arent really needed IMO. I find myself using the same ones over and over again, and the small differences in bore size up or down doesnt make all that drastic a difference.

QFT.

[Spider-TW]

Between one, two and three piece barrels I would rather have a one piece that matches the paint. You can only use a barrel kit effectively with good paint, which has to be premium when its made and kept that way when its shipped and until you use it. That's pretty rare for me. When one out of four balls is large, small or egg shaped, it throws it off. The three sizes tech-chan has are good for me, but .689 gets the most play.

[ThePixelGuru]

Whether or not they "work" depends on what you think they should do. If you asked if they're a good option for stopping rollouts on closed-bolt markers, then yes, they work great. If you mean better efficiency, yeah, great as well. If you mean better accuracy/precision, it's debatable. Many tests have suggested that typical insert sizing wisdom is not so wise - the "perfect" ball/bore match just exaggerates any difference in ball sizes. Slight underboring (ball bigger than bore), while not so efficient, seems to make every ball seal on all sides, eliminating much of the effect of different ball sizes. Overboring prevents the ball from sealing to the bore anywhere, and also solves this problem (though not nearly so well).

Personally, I don't bother. I have a J&J Ceramic and I shoot all paint through it on all days. It's a smooth tube, I don't feel that throwing more money at it will make it shoot any straighter (or at least not enough to justify the expense). I had a Deadlywind Wisper on my 'cocker at one point - nice barrel, but I never felt it made the difference between a hit and a miss. I was always more accurate with my 'mag, though.

[xero28]

I was always more accurate with my 'mag, though.


Aren't we all. :)

[xero28]

I've seen a couple of Mags with the White Wolf Air freak tip used to cap just the back end of a freak. I've seen it on a couple of MicroMags. I just acquired my first micro and was thinking of doing this. Has anyone used this type of barrel setup? I would assume this would take the place of three or four different barrels since you could just change out the inserts? Essentially all the barrel would be is the insert? IMO, adding a 10" front to a freak won't do much more than slow the paintball, decreasing efficiency.

[tech-chan]

Depends on how short the back of the barrel is. If it's less than eight inches, you have a problem.

I would definetly at least try a .689 one peice barrel.
It'll be by far your favorite barrel, and will always be chosen to test paint on first.

And read this: http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/01_barrel_eff.shtml

And this: http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/02_boresize.shtml

And if your feeling really good about reading, this: http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/03_spinning.shtml

[Jaan]

I've seen a couple of Mags with the White Wolf Air freak tip used to cap just the back end of a freak. I've seen it on a couple of MicroMags. I just acquired my first micro and was thinking of doing this. Has anyone used this type of barrel setup? I would assume this would take the place of three or four different barrels since you could just change out the inserts? Essentially all the barrel would be is the insert? IMO, adding a 10" front to a freak won't do much more than slow the paintball, decreasing efficiency.I've tried it. It can be a pain to get the ball up to speed with a short front. Depending on the marker you can hit a "wall" where turning up the velocity just wastes more air out the end of the barrel and doesn't make the ball go any faster. I have the same problem with my PGP as well, especially on cold days.

[Hilltop Customs]

I went with kits because if you buy an extra tip you have 2 barrels of different lengths with multiple bore sizes.....its nice to be able to loan out a barrel if needed. I did this with a pipe and a redz pepperstick.

Oh btw, www.firstcallpaintball.com if you want a pipe....they have them for $50 for a complete kit(no autococker threads tho)

[B-Pow]

I have kits, I like them for increased efficeny, I also saw (a small) diffrence in flight paths where the deviation between flight patters was less than with the stock big bore barrels that tend to come with markers. That observation may just have been wishful thinking of someone who spent money....but whatever. At least the efficency gains were proved by numbers.

Had a marker shooting 275 fps with stock big bore barrel, put on a 2-piece with a fair paint to barrel match and was shooting at around 305 fps with the same ammount of air. Needless to say I lowered the marker back down to the 275 fps range before playing.

That and having the options of barrel fronts to match how you feel like playing that day helps. Longer barrels for shoving it through cover (bushes, manipulating airball bunkers...etc) shorter barrrels when you want to play in smaller tighter cover (way out in front behind a tiny thing...that you probably shouldn't have ran to....but it's too late now)

[Smoothice]

I love my barrel kits.

My first kit was an aci phat kit. It came with 5 different backs and 3 fronts of different length.

I honestly felt it made a HUGE difference. But maybe I just bought into the hype. I play a lot of pump. So with the closed bolt of an autococker it is necessary to have the right size bore.

When playing semi I usually over bore anyways.

[Spider-TW]

(way out in front behind a tiny thing...that you probably shouldn't have ran to....but it's too late now)
I was at that thing a couple of weekends ago. Obviously my barrel is still too long. ;)

[Avianrave]

I can't remember any problems I've had with my scepter barrel kit.

[mpsd]

I have several Freak based barrels (SP Freaks, WWA and DW Fiburs - the BEST of all). I really think they improve accuracy and the barrel to bore match help with the eventual roll downs. Of course, if you have a single bore barrell, it can be just as great, if it fits the paint just as well. I mostly use the following bore sizes: 685, 687 and 690. Still, as I said, if you like aluminum barrels, don't like the idea of having inserts but want to match the paint to the barrel, look for the Eclipse ones and the Dye ones. They allow you to change the back part of the barrel and do it.

[Sumthinwicked]

i wouldnt use another kit besides the freak inserts in my eyes no matter what barrel they are in dw, stiff tip ,or freak back i swear by them i bet money on my shots ;)

[cyberave68]

I am mostly a single peice barrel man my self. I did once go and get the new Sly carbon barrel kit. And i have to say it sucked donkey doo doo. The thing i have learned since then is with a kit of any kind you dont want 2"-3" sizers!!!! they are to short and have way to much room after the sizer for the ball to move around. My grouping went WAY down hill till i put the factory barrel back on my timmy. I do have a freak kit that i like. Those inserts are 6" long and seem to fit just right with the paint. i still have more single barrels but if you want need a kit get one with a little longer sizer/inserts as it will be much better in my opinion....

Cy

[Thotograph]

I agree with Cyber... the effective barrel length shouldn't be overlooked. Both the Sly and Stiffi kit use control bores that are under 3 inches. There's not enough effective barrel length to let the ball accelerate. I don't know if a larger bored front really provides a benefit but a short back is most def a detriment.

I own three different kits: Pipe, Dye ULs, and the new Alien Mayday kit. The pipe is a nice kit for the money. I've found that my Dye backs with the Stiffi front make sense. Not too much porting with the 12" Stiffi tip I have (actually it makes a 13" barrel but ohh well). The cf front is a nice option, and Alien's comes with a CF front as it is.

The Redz kit has 8" backs which is what Tom found to be the optimum effective length. I wish that Stiffi would make a front for the Redz kit b/c I think the chilli porting design is way too ugly for me to shoot. Still they have the right idea in their design as far as function goes.

Lately the Alien Mayday has been my go to kit. If you don't mind shooting a 14" I highly suggest the Mayday kit from Alien. CF front and an even 7" for back and tip. It shot amazingly on my Viking the other day. If Jack made a 12" tip it'd be the perfect kit in my eyes (unless someone releases an 8" back kit that isn't butt ugly). WGP Kaner kits are 8" too but they're rare & expensive (and still pretty ugly imo).

Find what works for you and stick with it. I've bought to many kits to do that but hey... you can learn from all our experiances and hopefully go right to a working combination. For a one-piece I love Javelin barrels from AKA. Lapcos are good too. Just don't be like me and buy too many barrels... I can't decide which one is better so I just keep buying more. The truth is... it's all about what works for you. I also have a DW kit but that doesn't see much use b/c of the evil they harbor inside.

[mabb1975]

I can honestly say in 18 years I have seen every claim and fad that paintball can see. Barrels have always been a huge debate. I remember when SP started and you had to send in your barrel to be drilled. I had one of the very first production 16" SP barrels made for my OLD mag. I loved it. Years later the " insert " debate started. I own upwards of 40 barrels atm. Freak, Stiffi, Revolver and tons of random 1 pc barrels ( most for cocker or Angel ). Between my son and I we pretty much stick to 2 barrels. He uses a full freak kit 12 " and I use a 14" revolver, both cocker threads. I use mine, with 5 inserts, on a Mini, 2 cockers, an SLG, my Pneumag, ICD promaster... think thats all atm, and I couldnt be happier. The field I mainly play at keeps great care of their paint and its darn near factory fresh most the time. Every sunday I get the the field, get my paint, size it and shoot all day. I have great accuracy with maybe 10% at the most going a lil off target to my liking. I will tell you now, it makes NO difference what barrel you use as long as YOUR happy with the output. I do agree with a previous post, the best think about inserts can be with closed bolt markers, aka cocker types. I always go under the paint size with my Ecockers simply to hold paint in place. Hell, my dad still uses a 14 year old chrome J&J 10" barrel with every paint he shoots on his magic box mech mag and loves it. My advice, find the marker that suits you best and then get to a shop that might allow you to sample barrels and find the one you like. After all, my son and I go around and round debating my revolver vs his freak. We cant even win the argument in our own home ! Best of luck

[xero28]

Great information from everybody. Thanks. I have been looking at the Lucky un1tec barrels. The "kit" is basically a bunch of full length, one piece barrels with different bores that attach to a back. They seem relatively inexpensive (I think around $20 for the back and $30 for each barrel). Does anyone have any experience with these. From what I can tell, they aren't made anymore, but I've seen some for sale over at PBN. I think these take care of the problem Cyber was talking about, and really the core of my original question: How could a 2 or 3 inch sizer make that much of a difference when the ball is travelling through another 10-12 inches of non sized barrel?

[Thotograph]

Because it loses the control bore much earlier so for one it can rattle around inside the .7" bore that most are. The increased bore size for the length of the barrel means the majority of acceleration will take place in the 2-3" of sized control bore so it should be less efficient. Quite simply it will lose alot of the push the air has on it because of the severe amount of overboring that occurs. The barrels are used by people with succesful results but for us who understand a bit more of the physics involved we tend to stay away from such an ineffiecient design. One benefit claimed by kits such as Sly is improved self cleaning properties. It most likely just a lack of contact between the bore and the ball as its traveling down. Still I'd rather have a properly sized bore that's at least 6inches long.

[mabb1975]

Just a fast lil reference. My numbers arent exact, to lazy to go measure.

Stiffi Barrel has a 1.5" bore sizer, 4 sizes - good barrel, overpriced imo
Revolver( my fav ) has about a 5" insert, 5 inserts - Love it
Freak ( kids fav ) bout 5" insert, 8 inserts - Kid loves it, I agree its good

Those are the kits I own atm, I have a TON of random single pc barrels atm as well. I have to say there are allot of good barrels. DYE UL's are damn nice barrels with a long history of performance. I still have an original on my mech mag that I use for EVERY brand / size of paint. Bottum line, your trying to make an imperfect paint bore fit a perfect size barrel, it can be a guessing game with all the variables. Send me a PM if ya want more input if ya like, always willing to help.

[cyberave68]

Lately the Alien Mayday has been my go to kit. If you don't mind shooting a 14" I highly suggest the Mayday kit from Alien. CF front and an even 7" for back and tip. It shot amazingly on my Viking the other day. If Jack made a 12" tip it'd be the perfect kit in my eyes (unless someone releases an 8" back kit that isn't butt ugly). WGP Kaner kits are 8" too but they're rare & expensive (and still pretty ugly imo).
Any pics of this kit or a link? I'm in the search for new kit that works...